OK, what i said before. people who believe in religion lack the proper understanding of what it means not to believe in that religion, so that means they're naive. yeah. I used to believe in god, i went to a youth church for a couple of years, then my mum died, and i realised that there wasnt any point in believing anymore, and that those that waste their time having faith in something are wasting their time.

I know some people are in the same 'boat' here on totse.

But isn't everyone naive? I mean, people get addicted to drugs, money, power. It's what religious people would call idols. Sometimes they worship themselves, without any real basis for doing so.

LostCause, if you'd like responses to questions, you might want to leave threads open. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif).

Random_looney, i agree with you on this one. But don't you think that someone who entrusts their destiny and entire life to someone else is jsut being a little naive? they arent living their own life.

I agree with you, but i think that religious people are especially naive for living their lives the way they do.

Alright, cool. I don't think they're naive if they understand that they're taking a leap of faith into something they can't prove with logic, experience, math, or science. There are certainly plenty of naive religious people in the world, but it doesn't mean that someone who's religious is naive.

But what i am saying is beleif in itself is naive unless something can be proven. however, not everyone who is religious is naive, just the stupid majority.

I don't understand. What's naive? Not the belief, but people who believe something that's unproveable?

So... do you solve crimes?

I only ask because you are obviously a mind reader.

If you aren't a mind reader then you will have to provide some sort of evidence that every person who believes in a "religion" lacks the understanding of what it means not to believe.

Of course, if even one studied atheist, muslim, pagan, christian, etc. converted to an opposite religion, it would screw up your claim.

Converted to another religion?

that would just mean they are more stupid for not abandoning religion altogether.

Random_looney your obviously the only other intelligent person posting here. what i meant to say was that the vast majority of religious people are naive, for simply letting someone else govern their own actions. Stupid religious people have caused more strife in this world than any other demographic. just look at Republicans.

The main reason why I'm saying religious people are naive is because of their tendency to believe that their religion is some sort of idyllic code by which they must live their life. surely in today's society you can see how stagnant religion has become? shouldnt the people who believe in it be considered backward also?

I'm wondering if it isn't you who are the naive one for thinking you know the answers.

I'm also thinking when you say religion you really mean dogmatic practices or organized groups.

quote:Converted to another religion?

that would just mean they are more stupid for not abandoning religion altogether.

1) no it would fit your original statement, "people who believe in religion lack the proper understanding of what it means not to believe in that religion,"

2) Based on what criteria besides your all knowing claim that they are stupid?

I think what Beta means is that if someone were erudite and learned in all different aspects of religion, including atheism, and decided to follow one (that's not atheism, since many people consider that a religion unto itself, which it can certainly become, at least) they wouldn't qualify as naive, since they'd know and comprehend several views. You may consider them stupid, but by technicality, they would cease to be naive.

[Edit- nevermind, he expounded on his thoughts himself.]

A smart religious person wouldn't see it as letting anyone govern their actions, they'd see religion as their choosing of their volition to follow a certain lifestyle. It's sort of like the law- why should I allow the government to oppress my right to make drugs, explosives, and/or murder? I wouldn't see myself as naive for obeying the law, as long as I understood the repercussions surrounding it.

I'm actually a conservative libertarian, and think both parties of the political system screw things up about the same, or at least attempt to. But anyway, I see nothing wrong with someone living their own as they wish, as long as they don't try to force others to comply with their system. Of course, that's within reason. Obviously, in public, people have to behave with decency, but that's moot. The entire legal system (deciding laws, and behavior) is based on Judeo-Christian ideals.

As for being backwards, one could argue that since Atheism is a relatively new religious concept (I'm not necessarily saying it's a religion, but anything pertaining to God or a god is religious), but then that would spark the question as to whether or not progress is always a good thing, or whether or not people are actually progressing at all. I mean, Hitler's views were fairly new, but they're generally agreed upon as intrinsically wrong (morally, ethically, and conceptually).

I'd agree that some religious sects, particularly "extreme", fringe groups, are often in direct opposition to progress; however, religion has been a part in some of the most important past discoveries in science. Not always a negative, inhibitory role, either.

[This message has been edited by Random_Looney (edited 10-09-2005).]

I'll give you this one, because I think I made a mistake because of RandomLooneys thread. But, in the future, don't repeat threads I close. If you continue, I'll have to have you banned.

Cheers,

Lost

LostCause, would you either please delete that thread, or unlock it so that I can do so?

If you still want to insult me with rhetorical questions, I have responses I doubt you'd appreciate, but would be completely valid.

The reason I made the thread was not only to counter a response in the first one, but also to bring the nature of the debate to what could be considered a slightly more pertinent subject to the forum. I wanted to see the a priori argument turned into a more constructive discussion.

In the future, you might want to note that simply saying "Hey, I closed that other thread for a reason. Please drop the subject." works with me. Of course, you might not give a shit, which is fine, but I'd like to at least throw it out there.

Beta, thanks for lowering the tone of this intellectual discussion. No i dont read minds, but i did say the MAJORITY of religious people are naive. I think i got my ass handed to me by random_looney in the first place, i don't need your idiocy. this thread is stale.

almost every person i know that is rabidly anti-christian/anti-religion fall into the same mold. the so called 'herd of independant minds.'

on a bodybuilding forum i used to frequent years ago, the BIG god hater finally let loose his reason for being such: his parents were hardcore christians, and he ended up gay.

i would submit that his whole mindset was set off not by god, or the sudden ignorance of the belief in him, but by his mom and dad.

coming home this week on greyhound, i was talking to a guy who introduced himself to me as a genius. he was paid to think dont you know.

anyway, he went on a christian bashing rant, getting quite excited while doing so. i asked him why his christ fixation, and out came the snap answers of about everyone who thinks this way.

a little later on, he told me that he was raised in a protestant household until his mom shot some hot dope and died when he was 5. he was then bounced around from group home to group home after 11 when his grandfather died.

to be sure, some ppl just dont beleive and never did.

but i was alot like the above 2 men in my teenaged years for a variety of reasons too long and verbose to really go into here. i denied gods existance because i was angry at him for the bad beats i had got, not because i really thought he didnt exist.

upon reaching adulthood, i realized alot. i let blame sit where it deserved, and realized that god wasnt the cause of my problems. it was the ppl who had done them. and myself.

i have problems right now. it would be easy, almost reflexive, to want to blame god or otherwise shift things off. but i dont, because he didnt do them. once again, its ppl, and in one case, just nature. and, of course, myself.

i wonder how many atheists are just like i was, once upon a time?

I know "athiests" like that.

"I prayed to god for a pony and

I never got one. God isn't real."

Alot of people though eventually

find christianity to be offensive

to what they learn about reality,

and to their common sense.

When I was a kid, I wanted to be

a paleontologist. They taught me

in sunday school that dinosaurs

never existed, evolution is false,

the earth has been here 6,000 years.

I already knew those were all lies.

Once you start to question it,

the whole thing falls apart.

Now I understand the truth:

The earth was hatched from a gaint

squid egg. And leprechauns killed

the dinosaurs. Mean little bastards!

Just like there are religious people who don't intellectually examine their beliefs, there are plenty of atheists and agnostics who don't want their actions to be accountable to anyone.

Equally weakminded fools who talk shit on religion for conflicting with some of their lifestyle choices.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Equally weakminded fools who talk shit on religion for conflicting with some of their lifestyle choices.

And they are right. Why should some

dusty fairytale tell them what they

can or can't do?

quote:Originally posted by TheMelancholyZombie:

OK, what i said before. people who believe in religion lack the proper understanding of what it means not to believe in that religion, so that means they're naive. yeah. I used to believe in god, i went to a youth church for a couple of years, then my mum died, and i realised that there wasnt any point in believing anymore, and that those that waste their time having faith in something are wasting their time.

I know some people are in the same 'boat' here on totse.

It takes real nerve to call someone naive, when you can't spell realize. On top of that, you said, 'proper understanding'. It sounds to me like you got OFFENDED at God. I'd like to direct you to dictionary.com, it's a real website.

What's a mum?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

It takes real nerve to call someone naive, when you can't spell realize. On top of that, you said, 'proper understanding'. It sounds to me like you got OFFENDED at God. I'd like to direct you to dictionary.com, it's a real website.

What's a mum?

Actually, the website is dictionary.reference.com. Dictionary.com is merely a placeholder that essentially points to the real site via domain name forwarding.

If you'd taken the time to read all of his posts (time consuming, yes), he puts forth his train of thought for his original post. Whether or not the logic was specious, you have the time to read through the entire thread, etc. is all contestable, but you're pretty far behind as far as the progression went.

I have to say that whoever said before that we are all naive, said it best. It takes just as much faith to believe as not to believe, no proof either way huh? I understand what you mean though, a large portion of the religious community doesnt challenge their faith at all. If people would consider that they could be wrong and that they need to think things through then the world would be much imporved I think.

Looney-IIIIIMMMMM BAAAACCCCCKKKK-I also see something I like very much...Moderator, go you one of us made it huh?

quote:Originally posted by JewDude:

I have to say that whoever said before that we are all naive, said it best. It takes just as much faith to believe as not to believe, no proof either way huh? I understand what you mean though, a large portion of the religious community doesnt challenge their faith at all. If people would consider that they could be wrong and that they need to think things through then the world would be much imporved I think.

That'd be me. Welcome back. Judo chop! You better post on it. Your input would be much appreciated. Sorry for bumping this everyone.

quote:Originally posted by TheMelancholyZombie:

OK, what i said before. people who believe in religion lack the proper understanding of what it means not to believe in that religion, so that means they're naive. yeah. I used to believe in god, i went to a youth church for a couple of years, then my mum died, and i realised that there wasnt any point in believing anymore, and that those that waste their time having faith in something are wasting their time.

I know some people are in the same 'boat' here on totse.

Please pardon this long response and thankyou in advance for taking the time and carefully reading it.

I was an athiest before I was a born again Christian. I already know your point of view very well but I will not say you are naive for living your way.

Being naive of anything and everything is just the natural state of existence for all of us. It takes time, endurance and patience to get a deep understanding of most topics we are faced with. Being naive isn't the problem but, what is the problem is being quick to judge or criticize something which one doesn't fully understand.

Please answer the following if you care to take the time;

Do you claim to have full knowledge of all things so that you may have the character and purity of conscience to be able to discern, judge and criticize others who are also living and learning just like you?

How did you raise up above the rest of us?

It's been said before that the same measure that you use to judge others will also be used to you. If you are critical and opposed to the Christian evangelist then what do you propose to replace those ideals with?

I would like to study your ideology in full disclosure? There is nothing hidden nor any conspiracy to fear in God's word. It is open for all to read and accept or reject.

What say you?

Do you only aim to destroy God in the hearts of man and leave the void?

Do you aim to replace God and His decree with your own ideology and methodologies?

Do you seek a following?

Do you understand that a great deal of the "religious" Christians were not so until a very profound awakening occured in them? (Rhetorical)

Do you also realize that no matter how hard you try to defeat the will of the convicted Christian, you will not prevail? (Rhetorical) This is because they walk with God daily and know a "better" way then the one they walked before they knew Him. This is the way of the faithful and not the way of the religious. I want you to understand that.

You won't be able to sell me on the idea that you are the all knowing oracle and have the truth of our existence in your ideology and concepts of your views of life.

Be honest and fair- What is your intent besides destroying God in the hearts of man?

There are a lot of people who are waiting for a leader. They are waiting to be lead out from under the bondage of the curse of sin and death we are all born under whether they know it or not.

In your own life you also seek the same thing deep down inside and that is the reason for your rebellion.

You do not like God's law just as much as I did. because it is against those of us who live(d) opposed to Him.

Most people today just want to be a part of the animal kingdom and be left alone to do the things that they do free of consequence and conscience but, there is no escaping it. Like a thorn in the foot so is the law of God a thorn to the soul.

I do not follow a religion which is a man-made and hollow deception based on tradition and faithless ceremony. I follow God through Jesus Christ. I want you to begin understanding it so you may make a better choice when prompted to tear at the body of believers as you have done here. I want you to get a better understanding of the position you are taking so that we may have a better conversation.

The only way out from under the laws of sin and death is through the blood and body of Jesus Christ. There is no other way out from under the condemnation and judgment of God. You are either with Him or you are not.

Are you able to discuss matters concerning the spiritual or will you continue to speak about the human condition? I would like to tell you about the path to the real God of created things but, this can not be done until you have understood the difference between the religious and the faithful.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

You won't be able to sell me on the idea that you are the all knowing oracle and have the truth of our existence in your ideology and concepts of your views of life.

Be honest and fair- What is your intent besides destroying God in the hearts of man?



Nobody has all the answers.

All we have is the search

for truth, for better models

of reality, a deeper understanding.

We need to keep looking because

we don't have it yet.

Some would like to fill this "void"

with fairytales and pseudo-mystical

doublethink, and by doing so they

can "lead" the people, like sheep.

Attacking this "god" hopefully can

be socially progressive, if it gets

people to question their beliefs,

as well as authority in general.

If that is too much for anybody,

they have lots of myth systems

to choose from. Throw a dart,

it's easier than thinking too hard.

Oh, please. Questioning authority =/= social progress.