St, Anslem, a monk/religious philosopher wrote this:

1. God is the greatest being that can be conceived of

2. It is better to exist than not to exist.

3. If God is perfect, then he exists

4. Therefore God exists

So is this right ot wrong?

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

St, Anslem, a monk/religious philosopher wrote this:

1. God is the greatest being that can be conceived of

2. It is better to exist than not to exist.

3. If God is perfect, then he exists

4. Therefore God exists

So is this right ot wrong?

Only argument two has any real basis. The other three all rely on the assumption that God exists. The whole argument could come down to:

If God exists, then He exists

Yay for circular logic!

St. Anslem, Bishop of Canterbury wrote 'Monologium', 'Proslogium', and 'Cur Deus Homo?' Have anyone here read any of his works?

He was really famous for successfully defending

God's existence from atheistic attacks. His works states that logic and reason is compatible with Christianity.

Mehh....

1. God is the greatest being that can be conceived of

2. It is better to exist than not to exist.

3. If God is perfect, then he exists

4. Therefore God exists



thats in the sence that one is TRYING to provide a convincing philosophy for God 'being'. Sorta like wot Canti said!?

To me, to conclude that God EXISTS is to un-make faith, which is what truely guides the spirits within and among us.

Lou Reed, so your point is we can only have faith in things that don't exist?

That's the kind of thing that sounds deep, but really isn't.

Kind of like a Sheryl Crow song...

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

That's the kind of thing that sounds deep, but really isn't.

Kind of like a Sheryl Crow song...

Cheers,

Lost

O, come on!

Sheryl Crow song's is philosophical?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anselm_of_Canterbury

I need more info on his works.

Ya know,It's really not cool to start a thread with, 'argument'. Had it said, 'Debate', I would have gladly chosen a side and went at it.

Really it's a nice idea. I'm a Christian but I'm open-minded enough to be able to debate both sides equally effectively. When it gets further on down, in the thread with an actual DEBATE going on, I'll join in.

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

St, Anslem, a monk/religious philosopher wrote this:

1. God is the greatest being that can be conceived of

2. It is better to exist than not to exist.

3. If God is perfect, then he exists

4. Therefore God exists

So is this right ot wrong?

Its been said before, but deserves to be said again, CIRCULAR LOGIC. Also there is no way item 2 can be proven, as we have never known non-existence.

Not just circular logic it is a jump in logic.

1) Being conceived of doesn't make you exist.

2) Possibly, although many people and animals have decided it is better to not exist and allow something else to exist (like dying to protect someone or an idea) thus this is arguable that it is always better to exist than not.

3) Big leap in logic, why must God exist if he is perfect?

4) therefore someone sucks at arguments, I so hope no one was really convinced by this in the past.

What is perfect?

If every man has his own perception of perfect, then perfection itself does not exist because perfection is not based on perception, but on reality.

So either, there is no perfection or there is. If there is, it must be based on a standard beyond man's level of perception, because the perceptions of men conflict each other and perfection cannot conflict with itself, else it loses its state of perfection.

Perfection is defined as

per·fect adj.

1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.

2. Being without defect or blemish

What is the whole? What are defects and blemishes? The very definition of perfect is circular in that the very definitions of 'defect', 'blemish', and 'whole' can only be defined by the same being which defined the standards of perfection.

Men have conflicting views of perfection, therefore lacking perfection, therefore lacking the ability to truly define 'defects' blemishes' and 'the whole'.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

If every man has his own perception of perfect, then perfection itself does not exist because perfection is not based on perception, but on reality.

Perfection is just an idea, a hypothetical state. It has no basis in reality. Don't give power to words that don't have any.

Saying a god must exist because of the idea of perfection is like saying a god must exist because of the idea of 'perfect evil' or the idea of 'the absolute worst'.

quote:Originally posted by Sarter:

Perfection is just an idea, a hypothetical state. It has no basis in reality. Don't give power to words that don't have any.

Saying a god must exist because of the idea of perfection is like saying a god must exist because of the idea of 'perfect evil' or the idea of 'the absolute worst'.

What I'm pondering is: Is perfection really a hypothetical state? In a perfect world, would everything be fair? If so, would it only be fair for a single man's idea of perfection and fairness, or is there an absolute standard by which fairness and perfection can be judged?

quote:Originally posted by Canti:

Only argument two has any real basis. The other three all rely on the assumption that God exists. The whole argument could come down to:

If God exists, then He exists

Yay for circular logic!

Thats odd. I came up with the exact opposite of your argument. Statement 2 cannot be proven true, however the others are simply postulates created for sake of argument.

God, the ideal, IS the highest form of existence.

God, being perfect, must then exist if 2 is true.

Two cannot be proven true because "better" is relative.

Why must God exist if he is perfect?

Even assuming Man's understanding of perfect is not relative, what aspect of perfect means that whatever is perfect must exist?

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Why must God exist if he is perfect?

Even assuming Man's understanding of perfect is not relative, what aspect of perfect means that whatever is perfect must exist?

I hate this argument. In my opinion, it's terrible. The logic (circular, almost incoherent), to the best of my understanding is that a "perfect being", by definition would have to be. I don't agree with it, but it's what's argued.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

If so, would it only be fair for a single man's idea of perfection and fairness, or is there an absolute standard by which fairness and perfection can be judged?

The idea of perfection is relative and thus defies absolutes. Even if perfection existed, the idea of something more perfect would still exist, thus rendering the existing perfection imperfect.

A lot of philosophers disagree.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

[B] God, being perfect, must then exist if 2 is true.

B]

What God are you talking about? The one that christian's worship has killed on mass, and on multiple occasions...

That is not perfect, that breaks his own rules on life...

You mean Christians and Jews. At least that god doesn't contradict himself like the god of the Quran. And no, killing people doesn't break any commandment- one would believe that humans are living on borrowed time, anyway. God would have just as much authority, being perfect/good by definition, to take back what was given to us. Was it not said after the sin in the garden of Eden (Judeo-Christian belief), man would return to dust? If such a god were to claim something, it'd be preposterous to assume such a mandate would be reneged upon.

Besides, a being outside a temporal plane (encompassing space and time) would not really "live", so there'd be no way to break rules of life, anyway.

That's really not the argument ArgonPlasma2000 was proposing, anyway.

Ah, but here is the ruse, if God is perfect then everything he does is perfect, even if you might consider it evil or fit for Satan. Now, if Satan were to do the same thing, it would be considered evil because Satan isn't perfect.

Don'tcha love it.

(Of course, this is all based on the assumption that God is perfect.)

wordplay

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LostCause:

[B]That's the kind of thing that sounds deep, but really isn't.

Kind of like a Sheryl Crow song...



Fuck You Lost,

if there wasn't a God, we'd create one anyway... thats the point!

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

To me, to conclude that God EXISTS is to un-make faith, which is what truely guides the spirits within and among us.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

if there wasn't a God, we'd create one anyway... thats the point!

Do I spot a Douglas Adams fan?

+1

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

St, Anslem, a monk/religious philosopher wrote this:

1. God is the greatest being that can be conceived of

2. It is better to exist than not to exist.

3. If God is perfect, then he exists

4. Therefore God exists

So is this right ot wrong?



To me argument 1 dispells god. placing him in the hearts and minds of people. not an actual being. more of a energy.

George lucas researched a lot when he created the force. he also used a lot of aslems works.

quote:Originally posted by bushy:



George lucas researched a lot when he created the force. he also used a lot of aslems works.

Yoda > God ?

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

St, Anslem, a monk/religious philosopher wrote this:

1. God is the greatest being that can be conceived of

2. It is better to exist than not to exist.

3. If God is perfect, then he exists

4. Therefore God exists

So is this right ot wrong?

rofl. To state that "If god is perfect, then he exists" is like saying "If god exists, then he exists".

To imply perfection in the first half of the statement is to assume the existence of the deity which you're trying to prove the existence of.

Not to mention that his logic is incredibly flawed and outdated.

I'm not saying that God doesn't exist, just that this guy is an idiot.

http://tinyurl.com/9sfmk

http://tinyurl.com/dkfug

http://tinyurl.com/8ufkl

These links are to discussions and criticisms of the argument. I have thought on it myself and also concluded that it sadly does not actually prove anything.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Ah, but here is the ruse, if God is perfect then everything he does is perfect, even if you might consider it evil or fit for Satan. Now, if Satan were to do the same thing, it would be considered evil because Satan isn't perfect.

Don'tcha love it.

(Of course, this is all based on the assumption that God is perfect.)

Yep. By definition, Satan would be trying to twist God's word. Even from a Jewish perspective, Satan would attempt to portray the Law in a deceptive manner, to test humanity. It's still funny that God would be fine with doing something, because it'd be for our good, where Satan would just be an asshole (unless you take a traditional Satanist's view on the matter, and reverse the roles).

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

What is perfect?

If every man has his own perception of perfect, then perfection itself does not exist because perfection is not based on perception, but on reality.

So either, there is no perfection or there is. If there is, it must be based on a standard beyond man's level of perception, because the perceptions of men conflict each other and perfection cannot conflict with itself, else it loses its state of perfection.

Perfection is defined as

per·fect adj.

1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.

2. Being without defect or blemish

What is the whole? What are defects and blemishes? The very definition of perfect is circular in that the very definitions of 'defect', 'blemish', and 'whole' can only be defined by the same being which defined the standards of perfection.

Men have conflicting views of perfection, therefore lacking perfection, therefore lacking the ability to truly define 'defects' blemishes' and 'the whole'.



If perfect, is being whole, which is it, not only by your definition, by bibically as well. Then, It's impossible to be perfect? How is that so? Jesus was at ONE with God, and is, and Paul was at ONE with Jesus, God. Paul prayed the Church would be as well, and those who are born again, are at ONE with God, and The Christ too. "Therefore now there is no condemnation to them that be in Christ, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit."

At first glance, i had a problem with #2, because there is no way to know whether existence or non-existence is better if God does not exist (so, therefore, the arguement would fail).

However, i felt that what quasicurus posted, was probably a watered-down version of the arguement. Here is a break down of the arguement:

http://www.princeton.edu/~grosen/puc/phi203/ontological.html

p.s. As many here know, i believe in the Judeo-Christian God with all that i have... that being said, imho,the arguement still fails. I think it fails because the statement(from the Princeton.edu site) is false.. or more exactly..lacking... God can be greater that the conception: "(I) God can be conceived to be greater than it actually is.

But this is absurd. For given our definition (a), this just means that

(j) A being that cannot be conceived to be greater than it is can be conceived to be greater than it is.

From which it follows that our supposition (f) is false. "



In other words, Elephantitis Man is right when he said, "What is perfect?

If every man has his own perception of perfect, then perfection itself does not exist because perfection is not based on perception, but on reality."

Perception of perfection is limited by the one who is doing the percieving.

Therefore the arguement is lacking because we are not perfect enough to percieve perfection.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

If perfect, is being whole, which is it, not only by your definition, by bibically as well.

You can't use the 'being whole' meaning of perfect in this argument. For example, I am not missing any body parts, therefore I am whole. Yet I am not a god.

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

What God are you talking about? The one that christian's worship has killed on mass, and on multiple occasions...

That is not perfect, that breaks his own rules on life...

The Christian God works His will through the sins and benevolence of people. Deal with it. Nowhere does He say He owes you your next breath.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

Mehh....

To me, to conclude that God EXISTS is to un-make faith, which is what truely guides the spirits within and among us.

You nailed it right on the head! That is the perfect answer.

(Here is another long response..thanks for your patience with me and thanks in advance for reading my thoughts through to the end. I hardly deserve your attention.)

Faith is the ticket that leads to the revelation of God's existence. Without faith there is nothing but empty roads that lead to nowhere. This is for the "prove it with evidence and I'll believe" crowd but for their sake, the opposite is true. You must believe first and then all the evidence will be revealed.

All I can say is those people who wrote the bible thousands of years ago must have had a far superior understanding of the human character then today's 'great'and 'progressive' minds. Who, in today's world, could write such a marvel? (Rhetorical)

What lies in the bible is a perfect explanation of who we are, where we are and what we should aim to be as a an individual and a body of people. You don't even need faith to understand that. How is it that those men were able to identify all aspects of the human condition and set the standard so high that none of us are capable of reaching it when the natural tendacy of man is to be a morale under achiever? (sorry run on sentence...) Why not just write a low standard?

Whether God exists or not in this arguement matters little. What really matters is that we have lost sight of the sound doctrine found in the bible and gathered around us teachers that will tell us exactly what we want to hear. The basic message we are told today is, forget it, walk away from it because the standards of the bible are to high. Who can live that way?

None of us measure up and that is the point. The path to God lies not in our ability to live our lives according to the laws in the bible but in our ability to realize we are not capable of perfection according to those laws.

The law reveals inperfection as it contrasts our spirit to a measure of perfection. Most run from this in rebellion because they can not accept their true nature and place in the big scheme of things. Which is a humble servent to God and nothing more. It is inside that humility and surrender that we can even begin to understand what and who God is.

If you want to know Him..then seek Him with a humble heart and the mysteries or God will be revealed to you in time. I have met a gentle, patient and loving God who above all things is faithful in all that He has said.

I have seen it as a great Truth because much has been revealed to me. He is like a father of a newborn baby who patiently endures the crying and kicking of his hungry baby waiting to be fed. It is my testimony that we are like little infant babies in His arms.

Only a father can understand this because he knows one day that little baby will eventually understand his own hunger and not cry when he becomes hungry. This is like most of us who in our spiritual infancy do not understand the spiritual milk we crave. Nor are we capable of understanding the greater things of God until we first grow from the basic spiritual milk and into solid food for our souls.

Oh God I pray I handle your Word correctly.

~Amen

Thanks for reading~

quote:Originally posted by Sarter:

You can't use the 'being whole' meaning of perfect in this argument. For example, I am not missing any body parts, therefore I am whole. Yet I am not a god.

Sorry buddy, but you can. Being perfect (whole) doesn't mean being Jesus, it means being ONE with GOD. You better read that bible. Job was perfect, complete, he had everything. Being perfect is to be complete, but being without sin, is to be perfect, if you get what I'm saying, and none will be perfect, without sin, Until we meet Jesus in the air. All can be perfect, at one with Christ/God, if they want to.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Sorry buddy, but you can. Being perfect (whole) doesn't mean being Jesus, it means being ONE with GOD. You better read that bible. Job was perfect, complete, he had everything. Being perfect is to be complete, but being without sin, is to be perfect, if you get what I'm saying, and none will be perfect, without sin, Until we meet Jesus in the air. All can be perfect, at one with Christ/God, if they want to.

Job is not perfect.

But, he is better off than most people.

He still works.

If you are perfect, you will have zero motivation to do anything.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

You nailed it right on the head! That is the perfect answer.

(Here is another long response..thanks for your patience with me and thanks in advance for reading my thoughts through to the end. I hardly deserve your attention.)

Faith is the ticket that leads to the revelation of God's existence. Without faith there is nothing but empty roads that lead to nowhere. This is for the "prove it with evidence and I'll believe" crowd but for their sake, the opposite is true. You must believe first and then all the evidence will be revealed.

All I can say is those people who wrote the bible thousands of years ago must have had a far superior understanding of the human character then today's 'great'and 'progressive' minds. Who, in today's world, could write such a marvel? (Rhetorical)

What lies in the bible is a perfect explanation of who we are, where we are and what we should aim to be as a an individual and a body of people. You don't even need faith to understand that. How is it that those men were able to identify all aspects of the human condition and set the standard so high that none of us are capable of reaching it when the natural tendacy of man is to be a morale under achiever? (sorry run on sentence...) Why not just write a low standard?

Whether God exists or not in this arguement matters little. What really matters is that we have lost sight of the sound doctrine found in the bible and gathered around us teachers that will tell us exactly what we want to hear. The basic message we are told today is, forget it, walk away from it because the standards of the bible are to high. Who can live that way?

None of us measure up and that is the point. The path to God lies not in our ability to live our lives according to the laws in the bible but in our ability to realize we are not capable of perfection according to those laws.

The law reveals inperfection as it contrasts our spirit to a measure of perfection. Most run from this in rebellion because they can not accept their true nature and place in the big scheme of things. Which is a humble servent to God and nothing more. It is inside that humility and surrender that we can even begin to understand what and who God is.

If you want to know Him..then seek Him with a humble heart and the mysteries or God will be revealed to you in time. I have met a gentle, patient and loving God who above all things is faithful in all that He has said.

I have seen it as a great Truth because much has been revealed to me. He is like a father of a newborn baby who patiently endures the crying and kicking of his hungry baby waiting to be fed. It is my testimony that we are like little infant babies in His arms.

Only a father can understand this because he knows one day that little baby will eventually understand his own hunger and not cry when he becomes hungry. This is like most of us who in our spiritual infancy do not understand the spiritual milk we crave. Nor are we capable of understanding the greater things of God until we first grow from the basic spiritual milk and into solid food for our souls.

Oh God I pray I handle your Word correctly.

~Amen

Thanks for reading~





Not necessarilly. Just because you can prove He exists, does not mean you have proof that he is telling the truth.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Sorry buddy, but you can. Being perfect (whole) doesn't mean being Jesus, it means being ONE with GOD. You better read that bible.

What an arbitrary definition of 'perfect'. I get my word definitions from the dictionary and not the bible. Even if people were to use your definiton it would be circular logic:

If a god is perfect, then the god exists.

->

Perfect is being one with a god.

->

If a god is one with a god, then the god exists.

This doesn't make any sense in the slightest.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Not necessarilly. Just because you can prove He exists, does not mean you have proof that he is telling the truth.

That's the point that was being made..If I could prove He exists then there would no longer be a need for faith. If I could show you physical proof that God exists then I would be a liar. Although, my life is just another example of His work and plan of salvation for all of us. Within my personal experience my life conforms to "the sign of Jonah" that Jesus spoke about as a sign of proof. (ask me to explain that and I will if you do not understand)

"All" the evidence I have that shows the way to God still requires faith. I can not prove it to anybody as long as their arguement is "God doesn't exist". Because as "long as God doesn't exist" then neither does my arguement nor my evidence of the changes in my spirit. I can not prove anything to anybody by secular standards or reasoning. Without faith those things remain unseen and hidden.

I could tell you all about what the parables mean or the transformation of heart and mind as the spirit is awakened but I can not measure it in a test tube. I can not prove it to anybody with science because it is impossible to understand the Spirit of God by human logic.

After all, to me, science is nothing more then man's study of God's creation. But that is another topic all together.

Originally posted by Canti:



Originally posted by Lou Reed:

To me, to conclude that God EXISTS is to un-make faith, which is what truely guides the spirits within and among us.

Originally posted by Lou Reed:

if there wasn't a God, we'd create one anyway... thats the point!



Do I spot a Douglas Adams fan?

+1

You do!

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

Douglas Adams, "Last Chance to See"



[This message has been edited by Lou Reed (edited 10-14-2005).]

I always like what some guy said that i read somewere.

-I deny your sense of reality and put in place my own.

quote:Originally posted by Fai1safe:

I always like what some guy said that i read somewere.

-I deny your sense of reality and put in place my own.

That'd be Adam from the Mythbusters, no?

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."