Commandment #1 says "You should have no God before me", apparently. And also apparently, the Bible says that no one has ever kept this commandment. But... I have. I have no God before God, since I'm an atheist - and before I was an atheist, I believe in God.

Bible is WRONG, yo!

John 11:35

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 10-14-2005).]

quote:John 11:13



Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he spoke of taking rest in sleep. (WEB)

Now Jesus had spoken of his death: but they thought that he spake of taking rest in sleep. (ASV)

Jesus, however, was talking of his death: but they had the idea that he was talking about taking rest in sleep. (BBE)

But Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that he spoke of the rest of sleep. (DBY)

Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. (KJV)

Now Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking rest in sleep. (WBS)

Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought He referred to the rest taken in ordinary sleep. (WEY)

but Jesus had spoken about his death, but they thought that about the repose of sleep he speaketh. (YLT)

http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

The god of the atheist is himself.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

The god of the atheist is himself.

That's the God of a Satanist. I don't think Atheists consider themselves to be Gods, more that everybody is on an equal unauthoritative level. I guess it varies though.

quote:Originally posted by crazygoatemonky:

...more that everybody is on an equal unauthoritative level.

We weren't all created equal but we're all born human.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

The god of the atheist is himself.

I've heard this repeated over and over, and it still doesn't make sense to me. I am certainly no god. I am not the supreme or ultimate reality, the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe. I am not the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit, the "infinite Mind". I am not a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship, nor am I a person or thing of supreme value. I am certainly not a powerful ruler, either.

That's all of the definitions of "god" there is. http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

The god of the atheist is himself.

I've heard this repeated over and over, and it still doesn't make sense to me. I am certainly no god. I am not the supreme or ultimate reality, the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe. I am not the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit, the "infinite Mind". I am not a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship, nor am I a person or thing of supreme value. I am certainly not a powerful ruler, either.

That's all of the definitions of "god" there is. http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)



Your first post is in reguard to the First Commandment. A common sense meaning of that Command would be: "Hold God in the highest esteem/reguard -- if you place anything to a greater level of importance than God, you would be breaking this Command".

So, what Argon said; "The god of the atheist is himself." is partially true since the atheist has placed all things above God by denial... which, inturn, increases the truth of Argon's statement, since the atheist has placed his own intellect/belief as more correct than the existance of God.

Hope that clears it up alittle http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

1.) Not so sure about that. I'd think it means what it says.

2.) Even so, I'm not actually putting anything above God. Denying something exists != placing anything above that something. To place something above a god, I'd have to believe in such gods. As I'm atheist/agnostic, however, God is a big "?", not placed but shelved until I can figure out how to place Him. For now, I think that He cannot be placed because He doesn't exist, but I'm not tied to the notion. Just FYI http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Anyway...

For instance, I like computers. I do not believe God. Now, if I believed in God I could say "Gee, I like computers more than God. Better fix that!" But I'm saying nothing of the sort, merely "I like computers." No God involved; he is neither above nor below computers in my mind, because he doesn't exist in my mind. (His actual existance, in this argument, is irrelevant; it concerns what I do.) Or another example: I do not believe in cereal. I like to eat apples. I'm not putting apples above cereal, since the question of cereal's existance is irrelevant to me; the two things don't connect. I like to eat apples. Not "I like to eat apples more than I like to eat cereal." Cereal doesn't even exist; how can I place something above it?

I hope that makes some sense...



[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-15-2005).]

QUOTE Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

1.) Not so sure about that. I'd think it means what it says.

Well, if it means what it says (i'm assuming that you mean it implies that there are more than one god-beings and that the God of the Bible is just saying, "I want to be numero uno"). However, if that were the case, then that would negate these passages, among others(these are KJV. Right now i'm not going into the exact Hebrew wording.. if you want, we can but i'm limmited on time.. although i've more time this weekend compared to the last 2 1/2 months):



Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me

and:

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

and:

1Co 8:4-8 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

2.) Even so, I'm not actually putting anything above God. Denying something exists != placing anything above that something. To place something above a god, I'd have to believe in such gods.

No, this statement would be more correct if you were never exposed to God or the concept of God.. i.e. purely ignorant

For instance, I like computers. I do not believe God. Now, if I believed in God I could say "Gee, I like computers more than God. Better fix that!" But I'm saying nothing of the sort, merely "I like computers." No God involved; he is neither above nor below computers in my mind, because he doesn't exist in my mind. (His actual existance, in this argument, is irrelevant; it concerns what I do.)

Ah! but the actual existance of God is relevant. If He exists in actuality, then by denying that He exists, you are placing all things above God. In other words, if He exists, ones belief has no bearing on His existance.. but, if He does not actually exist, then belief in Him will not create Him to actual existance.

Again, in other words: if God does not actually exist, then your statement is correct.. if He does actually exist then we must find out if He is who He says He is in His Word.



Or another example: I do not believe in cereal. I like to eat apples. I'm not putting apples above cereal, since the question of cereal's existance is irrelevant to me; the two things don't connect.

If you have never come in contact with the concept of 'cereal', then yes, i would agree that "cereal's" existance is irrelevant. But now i've spoiled it for you by telling you about "cereal" and you still deny "cereal's" existance. By doing that, you are placing all things that you know to exist (and even things that exist only in your mind) above the good new's of "cereal".

Now, the concept of "cereal" does not make it real. Nor does the disbelief of "cereal" mean that it doesnt exist... either it exists or it does not. But if "cereal" exists, and it says, "snap, crackle, pop.. i'm better than apples", we now need to find out if "cereal's" word is true or false. (i know this is incomplete.. other things need to be thrown into this equation. Things like faith and doctrine and whether other "cereals" exist, whether the "apple" also claims to be best, etc.)



I hope that makes some sense...

Yes, thanks. And it did before you explained it more thoroughly, but thats cool.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Well, if it means what it says (i'm assuming that you mean it implies that there are more than one god-beings and that the God of the Bible is just saying, "I want to be numero uno"). However, if that were the case, then that would negate these passages, among others(these are KJV. Right now i'm not going into the exact Hebrew wording.. if you want, we can but i'm limmited on time.. although i've more time this weekend compared to the last 2 1/2 months):



Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me

and:

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

and:

1Co 8:4-8 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Good point, but I was interpreting it as "don't worship anything but me", not necessarily that the worshiped things exist. The Golden Calf, for instance.

quote:No, this statement would be more correct if you were never exposed to God or the concept of God.. i.e. purely ignorant

Well, I think of the concept of the Christian God as unfeasible... but this doesn't mean I'm putting anything ahead of His actual person.

quote:Ah! but the actual existance of God is relevant. If He exists in actuality, then by denying that He exists, you are placing all things above God. In other words, if He exists, ones belief has no bearing on His existance.. but, if He does not actually exist, then belief in Him will not create Him to actual existance.

Again, in other words: if God does not actually exist, then your statement is correct.. if He does actually exist then we must find out if He is who He says He is in His Word.

It is indeed relevant to a lot of things, but in this case it [His existance, that is] doesn't seem to matter to me. We're dealing with how I see things, to find out how God is ranked in my head. If He exists in actuality, He still doesn't exist in my belief; if He doesn't, He still doesn't. Like you said, His actual existance is not affected by my belief - and in this case, it's vice-versa.



quote:If you have never come in contact with the concept of 'cereal', then yes, i would agree that "cereal's" existance is irrelevant. But now i've spoiled it for you by telling you about "cereal" and you still deny "cereal's" existance. By doing that, you are placing all things that you know to exist (and even things that exist only in your mind) above the good new's of "cereal".

Hmm... I still don't think denying that something exists - or withholding judgement on its existance - is somehow placing other things above it. It's not ranked below anything, it's just not even in the picture. You give me the "Good News" (XD) of cereal's existance, but I find it unconvincing. I'm not disparaging cereal or the concept of cereal in any way, I'm just saying it looks unfeasible to me.

quote:Now, the concept of "cereal" does not make it real. Nor does the disbelief of "cereal" mean that it doesnt exist... either it exists or it does not. But if "cereal" exists, and it says, "snap, crackle, pop.. i'm better than apples", we now need to find out if "cereal's" word is true or false. (i know this is incomplete.. other things need to be thrown into this equation. Things like faith and doctrine and whether other "cereals" exist, whether the "apple" also claims to be best, etc.)

I think I see your point now... by denying cereal's claim to be better, I am denying its Holy Cerealness. But couldn't I merely be denying you, not the Cereal? I.e., you and the Bible say that God is great and exists. To me, however, the Bible is just a book; I'm not denying God but only a book. In my mind, that's all it is - so even if it does turn out to be God's Word, I wouldn't have been trying to put anything above Him Himself.

Either way, though, I'm not sure how this means I have "other foods" (in keeping with our example http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)) before cereal; in my mind, it just means that I have other foods and cereal may or may not exist and may or may not be better.



quote:Yes, thanks. And it did before you explained it more thoroughly, but thats cool.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Of course, it could be a moot point... I went through a period when I considered the notion that since I was the only viewpoint I could ever experience, I was the only thing that mattered. I eventually rejected it, but perhaps that could be considered thinking myself a "god"... but theoretically my original scenario could be possible, so I would certainly like to continue the debate. Just felt I had to be honest there http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)



[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-16-2005).]

Hello.

First thing, I think the Bible is being ambiguous here. What does it mean by "God"? Does it mean creator, ruler, ethical advisor, metaphysical entity, what? I mean, if I come up with some flourish of presocratic-style madness like Anaximander's idea that there's an infinite, indestructible 'principle' from which all other things are derived, but which has no specific nature in itself, is that a God or is that a part of the natural world? It seems like a tangible 'thing' like we might say all things are comprised of 'energy', but on the other hand Anaximander and others seem to refer to it as divine and people (mostly silly hippies and self-styled 'progressives') speak of God being 'infinity' and things.

Also, what does it mean by "before"? - temporally or in terms of some sort of 'league table of dieties' (though I think the latter seems a lot more reasonable)... and saying 'before' doesn't imply exclusivity, just that God should be the best. Especially after "your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage", which could be interpreted to imply that he was the one of many candidates who decided to help the Israelites.

So it seems to me that the first commandment is nonsense. Hopefully the Hebrew actually means something. If it does, there are two likely things that it could mean which I think have been used in the discussion so far:

The first is "don't like anything more than you like me". This doesn't seem to result in the sort of thing I associate with God, because I "like" my friend Ian a lot more than I like my quantum/relativity lecturer (he's an arse), but I'm still more likely to want to learn from him than I am Ian because Ian doesn't know so much about physics. The same goes for God, I could like him much as humanly possible, but I wouldn't have to respect his abilities. So I'm not supposed to obey him, so I don't have to obey the first commandment and I don't have to like him either. It also seems to demand an unfair comparison because you can't form a proper opinion of something you couldn't reasonably say you know the true nature of and probably can't even comprehend.

The second is "don't believe that anything else is more qualified to be God than me" which is fine, because atheists don't believe that ANYTHING is qualified to be God. Also, we don't think God exists, but we're not saying the concept of God is worse than any other concept. I mean, we don't think cereal exists, but gee whizz, if we did we'd respect it far more than we do that stupid apple! The fact that we don't think it's there doesn't detract from it as a concept in any way at all. Zeno didn't believe that movement was possible, but that didn't stop him from getting out of bed every day (good excuse though). Yes, I've been reading Early Greek Philosophy http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif).

If anybody else would like to put foreward a proper interpretation, we can talk about it properly, but it seems to me that the English translation of the Hebrew (Hebrew's a silly language) that we're going on here has seemingly left us unsure what we're even discussing.

I'd like to point out that the idea that "The god of the atheist is himself" seems pretty hostile, seems to make atheists out to be selfish, when in reality they vary in personality as widely as theists. Why can't atheists and theists just get along and discuss things frankly and not be offended by each other's beliefs? Why do we need to characterise each other as 'the enemy', surely the only enemy are the unreasonable (and people that steal your pasta)?

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 10-16-2005).]

Hello?

I wasn't actually aiming to pwn here, I thought I'd end up with a discussion I could pwn at the end of. Oh well.

Ha, I was wondering what had happened too. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Anybody going to say anything or have we really proven that the bible is a load of old bunkum so easily?

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

The god of the atheist is himself.

I've heard this repeated over and over, and it still doesn't make sense to me. I am certainly no god. I am not the supreme or ultimate reality, the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe. I am not the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit, the "infinite Mind". I am not a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship, nor am I a person or thing of supreme value. I am certainly not a powerful ruler, either.

That's all of the definitions of "god" there is. http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

I'm not quite sure how you can't see this, but one of the main facets of the religions is that god is all powerful, and that he directs your life. Atheists generally don't believe in fate, they are the leaders of their lives, that is how they are their own gods.

Some shit like that anyway.

quote:and that he directs your life. Atheists generally don't believe in fate, they are the leaders of their lives, that is how they are their own gods.

Free will?

It might be worth saying that only Jews are bound by the ten commandments. Since to be a Jew(religiously) you have to believe in G-d, the commandment does not apply to athiests. Only the Noahide laws apply to gentiles, which are as follows

1. Do not murder.

2. Do not steal/kidnap.

3. Do not worship false gods/idols.

4. Do not be sexually immoral

5. Do not blaspheme.

6. Set up righteous and honest courts and apply fair justice in judging offenders and uphold the principles of the last five.

7. Do not eat anything of the body of an unslaughtered animal

So by being a righteous athiest, youd be obeying all the laws, considering you do not worship false gods, but rather no gods.

Christians often interpret the Tanakh in strange ways, but I hope that clears things up from a Judaistic perspective.



[This message has been edited by Sharule (edited 10-28-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by prozak_jack:

I'm not quite sure how you can't see this, but one of the main facets of the religions is that god is all powerful, and that he directs your life. Atheists generally don't believe in fate, they are the leaders of their lives, that is how they are their own gods.

Some shit like that anyway.

Sp0rkius said it - free will. If God directs all of your life, there would be no free will for Christians, and I'm pretty sure they still believe that they've got it.

Besides that, I'm still not making myself a God. I lead my own life because I am the only person who can lead this particular life at all; at least, as far as I am aware.

quote:It might be worth saying that only Jews are bound by the ten commandments. Since to be a Jew(religiously) you have to believe in G-d, the commandment does not apply to athiests. Only the Noahide laws apply to gentiles, which are as follows

1. Do not murder.

2. Do not steal/kidnap.

3. Do not worship false gods/idols.

4. Do not be sexually immoral

5. Do not blaspheme.

6. Set up righteous and honest courts and apply fair justice in judging offenders and uphold the principles of the last five.

7. Do not eat anything of the body of an unslaughtered animal

So by being a righteous athiest, youd be obeying all the laws, considering you do not worship false gods, but rather no gods.

Christians often interpret the Tanakh in strange ways, but I hope that clears things up from a Judaistic perspective.

Very interesting. This still won't get me into heaven, though, will it? (Do Jews HAVE a heaven?) Please, expound! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Some Jews believe in heaven. The basic idea is that you will get into heaven through correct action, not correct belief. So if you are a good person, you will get into heaven, regardless of whether youre Jewish, Muslim, Christian, buddhist etc...

Other jews dont believe in an afterlife. Judaism deals more with how to live on earth, while the afterlife is left up to personal interpretation.

But as a Jew, I do not believe a loving god, as G-d is, would send good people to hell. It doesnt make any sense, condemning some one to hell is one of the most hateful things one could do, and as G-d is Just and Loving, I do not believe that a hell could exist, for there is no justice in one suffering for eternity because of 80 years on earth.

So in short, Some Jews believe in an afterlife, some dont, almost all agree that virtuous gentiles will get into heaven. Almost no Jews believe in Hell(that Ive met anyway). Evil souls might just suffer the evolutionist death: sleeping forever.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Commandment #1 says "You should have no God before me", apparently. And also apparently, the Bible says that no one has ever kept this commandment. But... I have. I have no God before God, since I'm an atheist - and before I was an atheist, I believe in God.

Bible is WRONG, yo!

This is retarded for so many different reasons. Keep your atheism to yourself, you give other atheists a bad name.

You are retarded for so many different reasons. Keep your comments to yourself; you give other atheists a bad name.

Your description of free will is the earthly perception of reality. Think of hte law of relativity. Action and Reaction, everything you claim to say exist or doesnt exist is simply a reaction of your predetermined (by God) environment. Belief in God is an action for which there is no precurser for most, that is why you immaturely dismiss my "fairytales". Hopefully some of you atheists will consider reading the bible, (hopefully in the King James Version) instead of living a life of purposeless reactionary thinking. If you think that you control this world, non believer, you are sadly mistaken.

You contradict yourself.

quote:Belief in God is an action for which there is no precurser for most

So you were born with it? It was in your mind from the start? So why wasn't I born with it? Why are there atheists? And Muslims?

I'd say belief in God is something there is a precursor for, and that precursor is our human tendency to create stories and use our overactive imaginations, as well as a search for an easy explaination (Douglas Adams' idea of "I designed this tool for myself and it's perfect for my needs. Hey, this world is pretty perfect for my needs, someone must have designed this for me!" [to paraphrase very poorly http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)]).

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

I am certainly no god. I am not the supreme or ultimate reality, the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe. I am not the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit, the "infinite Mind". I am not a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship, nor am I a person or thing of supreme value. I am certainly not a powerful ruler, either.

That's all of the definitions of "god" there is. http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)[/B]

I am. Hope that settles the issue.