God or satan is trying to decieve me into thinking he does not exist through totse, internet, etc. to test my faith in him? Everytime i visit this forum or read something that tries to disprove God i seem to lose faith in my religion. This is slowly turning me bipolar, everytime I have a moodlift it goes down after the thought the thought, there is no life after death or no God runs through my head and that there is no point in living. I've been trying to block this out of my head for a long time, so i can live a normal life. I am very confused and this is alot of stress for a 14 year old. I don't know what to think and I need help



[This message has been edited by OMr_duckO (edited 10-17-2005).]

I think it's good to turn things upside down sometimes.

then...'Be Still'...

...and don't worry...try not to think too much...

God is beyond all thoughts that man can and will think...

Eh...the biggest goal of Satan is to convince everyone he does not exist.

I have doubts all the time too. Lately I've been torn towards paganism/witchcraft. There are a few motives, the main one being old relatives being witches themselves (not 'Wicca' witches, dark witches). I don't know much about it yet.

Also remember it is not totse, the internet, or 'etc.' that is testing your faith. The entire world, your life, is a test of faith. Remember when you read an article or post 'disproving God', that it is not possible to disprove him. You debate what you can, but when you are stuck, let it go. Sometimes we get stuck. It isn't the main purpose of a Christian to prove his God exists. It is to find those that are wanting God, that are wanting guidance, and point them in the right direction. Those that want no guidance, that want no God, you cannot make them see Him. Just as if you believe in God, they cannot make you see He isn't there. Defend what you can, based on what you know, but don't let it get to you when it seems you have lost. Remember they are the ones who've truly lost.

If you would really like to know "The Truth", don't try to get your faith back - or lose it. It should indeed be your job to prove if God exists, or you won't know whether you're believing in a boring old myth or the infallible "Word" of God. If you do not try to make sure your beliefs are correct, how do you know that you point people in "the right way"? Don't stop reading or thinking, no matter what. Don't take your mind off the subject, as Elephantitis Man and outcast seem to suggest. That way lies ignorance. If God is indeed real, then it should be evident. If, however, you decide that it's all Satan tempting you, then you'll never get anywhere. Logic and reason and evidence are reasons to disbelieve God; Satan, as far as I am aware, cannot twist 2 into 3. 2 + 2 = 4, regardless of Satan, and so should the logic of the debates here transcend him. Can Satan lie with the truth?

quote:there is no life after death or no God runs through my head and that there is no point in living.

On the contrary, there is great point in living. Is happiness happiness even if there is no God? You get to live a full life, hopefully, and then when you die you don't care. It's like rest. Sweet deal, seems to me - a good existance and then no more worries or effort. With God, however, the whole of existance is trivialized - instead of pioneers blazing our way through a new and exciting universe, we're merely ants at God's feet. Where's the adventure in THAT? And you can't die, even if you wished to! Urgh. Nooo thanks.



[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-18-2005).]

Scenario 1: Satan exist and is trying to trick you into beleiving that he doesn't. Since Satan is the next-in-rank after God, he must be much, much smarter than us, thus if he really wanted to trick us into believing that, we will never know the truth.

Scenario 2: Satan really does not exist.

In either case, you will never ever be convinced of Satan's existence. Therefore, abandon your religious belief. There really is nothing to lose when you become an atheist.

[This message has been edited by quasicurus (edited 10-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

There really is nothing to lose when you become an atheist.

As long as you are correct.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

As long as you are correct.



Same goes for all religions. You won't lose anything being Christian "as long as you are correct."

With the thousands of religions out there it's like playing Russian Roulette with your soul.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

Same goes for all religions. You won't lose anything being Christian "as long as you are correct."

With the thousands of religions out there it's like playing Russian Roulette with your soul.



As long as there is a God, a Christian has a greater chance of being right than an atheist.

and if there is no God, then nothing matters in the end

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

and if there is no God, then nothing matters in the end



It matters what it brings to your life in the meantime...

Either way, God or no God...

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



As long as there is a God, a Christian has a greater chance of being right than an atheist.



Maybe by 0.00000000000000000000000000000001% considering there are so many religions, and nobody knows which god is "real". Notice how close to 0% this is.And remember, this is ONLY IF there was a god for sure (50/50 chance, makes the number above even smaller).

But since this is not really known, this does not apply. So athiest or not, you aren't better off believing in a god anymore than you are when you don't believe in one.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

and if there is no God, then nothing matters in the end



This is not true. Even if there is no god, you should still live your life to be happy. Just cause he doesn't exist, doesn't mean you should kill people, and end up in jail for the rest of your life.

What matters is your life, and how live it, regardless of god's existance. I am an aethiest, and as far I am concerned there is no god. Even if there was, I don't care. I see no need to worship someone.

I am perfectly happy in my life, I have my friends, family, a good job, and a great a life. I am truly happy. And THAT is all that matters in the end.

I am sure that almost everyone would agree, that they want to live a good happy life. And if there was no God, they would still want to live a good happy life.

So again, it does matter in the end. Unless you truly do not care about yourself or your life, then it would not matter. But if you don't want to live, why are you here?



**********

I think your point of view is misunderstood.

It seems like you speak from a point of view that you are meant to live a life of survitude under God. And if there is no God, then all purpose to your life has been lost, and you are like a lost robot.

If this is the case, you don't make that clear, and it makes it seem like the above character I mentioned who doesn't really want to live.

[This message has been edited by Aeon (edited 10-18-2005).]

How about balancing your time on totse and the internet with reading the bible? The internet is full of bullshit and falsifications. you can only find truth from the bible.

quote:Originally posted by p106_peppy:

How about balancing your time on totse and the internet with reading the bible? The internet is full of bullshit and falsifications. you can only find truth from the bible.

What? What kind of crap is that? I do believe he should read the bible and other forms of literature, and engage in discussion to figure out what he believes in, and so forth.

But to state that the bible is the "only truth" is utter crap.

I understand that offering support for your fellow christian is important, etc.

But what makes you think that everything in the bible is correct? How can you assume that you are infallible (I will explain what I mean by this)? You assume you are infallible in the idea that your God exists, and that everything about him and his word is true (the bible).

Let me ask you this.

If you met someone in the street who believed he was God, and he thought he was infallible...would you believe he was God? If not, why wouldn't you? How is this any different then how you believe that your God is real or the everything about bible is true?

It doesn't even have to be this situtation.

Let just say you met a person of a different religion. Why don't you believe that there God is the real one, and yours is false? They are infallible remember (because their bible told them so, and we all know that is definitive)? Or is that you?

This whole infallible belief thing is a load of crap. It is no different than how the Pope and his devout followers, assume he is infallible. It is simply ridiculous.

He is just some devout religous guy elected to be the new leader of the church. No where in the election process does he gain omniscient knowledge of infallibility about ethics.

I am not trying to be mean, but I think it important to point out that the bible is not a proven book of truth. There are just some people that think it is. I think it's bad when you start spreading such ideas of "truth".

I do not spread "truth" that there is no God. I don't have definitive proof, I just say that "I don't believe in a God, and here's why..."

Then I leave the ultimate decision of whether or not someone wants to believe up to them.

This is different that stating "there is no God, and that is a fact".

[This message has been edited by Aeon (edited 10-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Aeon:



Maybe by 0.00000000000000000000000000000001% considering there are so many religions, and nobody knows which god is "real". Notice how close to 0% this is.And remember, this is ONLY IF there was a god for sure (50/50 chance, makes the number above even smaller).

But since this is not really known, this does not apply. So athiest or not, you aren't better off believing in a god anymore than you are when you don't believe in one.

Well, consider this.

If I choose to believe in god, and you choose not to, and we both die, If you're right we both lose. if I'm right, you still lose, but I win.

So thus, you can conclude that the only logical thing to do is believe in God.

But which religion to choose?

Well, There's no point in choosing Hinduism, because you if you choose another religion and get it wrong, then you get to be reincarnated and try again. Plus I do believe that Hindus accept all gods?

What about Buddhism? Well, they have reincarnation as well, so no point in choosing this one.

Islam?

Well, When people try to explain Islam as a religion of peace (which if you've ever read the quran, it's not), like to say that Islam accepts all monotheistic god-fearing religions. So what's the point of choosing this one if you can just be monotheistic and still be covered?

Sikhism?

Sikhs believe in a single, Formless God, with many names. The goal of Sikhs is to build a close, loving relationship with God. They also believe in reincarnation. So again, no point, if you get it wrong you can just come back and fix it.

Wiccan?

There is no streamline belief of wiccans, which we can assume is because it's bull shit that angsty teens make up and vary along the way so they can fit into a clique.

Confucianism?

It's not actually a religion, it's just an ethical system.

Shinto?

Again, it's not so much of a religion, it's more like a cross between Confucianism and Buddhism. Most Shintos follow other religions as well. There are many deities, but none are omnipotent or omni-presencet. So you really have nothing to lose by not being Shinto.

Bahai'i?

Well, my cousins are bahai'i, and I think they're full of shit. bahi'ism stresses the oneness of humanity, and they believe in pretty much everything, that Adam, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Mohammed, The Bab, and Baha'u'llah are all correct. So if their all right, then there is no wrong choice. you're free to believe something else.

Zoroastrianism?

Well, for starters, they don't accept converts. They believe that their god is the only god, and that you'll either go to heaven or hell. However, after the apocalypse, they believe everyone in hell will be released and live happily ever after. So what's the point of believing if in the end you'll live happily ever after anyway?

Jainism?

Similar to Buddhism and Hinduism, in that there is reincarnation, so what would be the point of choosing this? Also, you're judged on karma, or your good acts, not necessarily belief. So If you're a good person then you're covered.

Christianity?

Well, in Christianity, there is only one way to heaven, and that is by having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Christianity stresses that it is the only true religion. So considering that all other major religions have loopholes which let you believe other things, you're covered for all of them if you're Christian.

But it's more than that. No other religion can bring you the personal joy and satisfaction that Christianity can.

quote:Originally posted by p106_peppy:

If I choose to believe in god, and you choose not to, and we both die, If you're right we both lose. if I'm right, you still lose, but I win.

So thus, you can conclude that the only logical thing to do is believe in God.

But which religion to choose?

First off, your logic if flawed.

You said "If I choose to believe in god, and you choose not to, and we both die, If you're right we both lose."

Who says we lose? Who says we both lose? Why is this a win or lose situation?

You simply live your life, die one day, and the world moves on with out you. it is no different for me either. You do not lose, it is simply the end of your time.

So saying "I'm right, you still lose, but I win." doesn't make sense.

You can think you won, but not so can somone who got second place in a race. And everyone else can see him as the 1st place loser. So the win/lose arguement has no basis as it is a relative opinion to who won or lost.

As for "But which religion to choose?":

Why must you choose a religion? How about no religion? Is this really so hard to comprehend? Why do feel and insist that you cannot live a life without worshipping a god?

I would pick none, because I am happy already and have a good life. None of them can offer me anything.

It seems all it would add to my life is inconvenience. For exmaple, on Friday I wouldn't be able to eat meat. Or for a couple days I need smear ashes across my forehead and wear it all day. Or I would have to "fast" when I do not need to be on a diet, cause I am already skinny.

As you can see, a lot of these things are just arbitrary and WILL NOT get you into heaven. Where a cross around your neck, go to chruch on Sunday, and don't eat steak on Fridays. None of this artificial bull shit will get you into the heaven you believe. This is more like the fastest way to hell.

Ever heard of a 'Fool's Paradise'? I think it is synonmous with Catholics (if I remember correctly).

So as far as I am concerned, I win! Yay!

quote:Originally posted by p106_peppy:

If I choose to believe in god, and you choose not to, and we both die, If you're right we both lose. if I'm right, you still lose, but I win.



Pascal's Wager Refuted (http://tinyurl.com/26far)

quote:It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him.

Well, I read your webpage, and there seem to be more problems with the atheists wager than with Pascal’s.

you're assuming that if the Christian is then wrong, that they would have wasted their life. Well, I can tell you that as a Christian I am absolutely happy and content. and I do believe that statistically believers are happier than non. so saying that a believer has wasted their life is all relative, what you consider a waste, I consider a wonderful, fulfilling way to spend it.

If god exists then what's to say a person will get into heaven by their good works? It all depends on what religion you choose, isn't it?

And think of all the people who made the world a better place. Mother Teresa, Gandhi, martin Luther king jr. What's to say that a believer will not leave the world a better place? Atheism doesn't really compel you to make the world a better place any more than religion does.

quote:Originally posted by outcast:



It matters what it brings to your life in the meantime...

Either way, God or no God...

No, if there is no God (thus, no afterlife) then what it brings to your life in the meantime, is just as vain (or useless) as anyother living creature.

quote:Originally posted by Aeon:



Maybe by 0.00000000000000000000000000000001% considering there are so many religions, and nobody knows which god is "real". Notice how close to 0% this is.And remember, this is ONLY IF there was a god for sure (50/50 chance, makes the number above even smaller).

But since this is not really known, this does not apply. So athiest or not, you aren't better off believing in a god anymore than you are when you don't believe in one.

i'd like to see the math that you worked that number out.

Anyway, your next post is the one i'd like to address...

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

No, if there is no God (thus, no afterlife) then what it brings to your life in the meantime, is just as vain (or useless) as anyother living creature.

If there is God, we will be better off than most living creatures? How so?

We are only humans with finite mind, while God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-everything. Thus, God's existence will always trivialize ours.

quote:Originally posted by p106_peppy:

you're assuming that if the Christian is then wrong, that they would have wasted their life. Well, I can tell you that as a Christian I am absolutely happy and content. and I do believe that statistically believers are happier than non. so saying that a believer has wasted their life is all relative, what you consider a waste, I consider a wonderful, fulfilling way to spend it.

Perhaps I should have chosen another (out of the thousands) that refute Pascal's Wager. I just wanted you to look at the flaws, not the atheist wager (which I don't subscribe to.)

QUOTE Originally posted by Aeon:

This is not true. Even if there is no god, you should still live your life to be happy.

First of all, what makes you think that i am not living my life to be happy?

Just cause he doesn't exist,

Big assuption on your part.

doesn't mean you should kill people, and end up in jail for the rest of your life.

Since you took the liberty of assuming that i wasnt happy, i just want to make the disclaimer that i'm not considering killing anyone.

That being said, if there is no God, then there is not absolute good. If there is no absolute good, what difference does it make if one goes around killing others if they can or think they can get away with it? You might say, "because it'll make you feel bad", but they say it gets easier the more you do it (i doubt that it makes you feel better, just makes you numb, is my guess)

What matters is your life,

sorry, but if (i hate saying it this way, but.) God exists, then what matters most is Him and His will. Second comes treating others as He wants us to treat others and third, self.

and how live it, regardless of god's existance.

Again, of what matter is life, if God does not exist? Whether one does "good" or "bad" becomes relative without a foundation.

Also (if God does not exist), of what matter are things accomplished, or items acquired, or even your legacy after your 70 or so years are expired? If there is no God, then there is no difference between Hitler and Mother Theresa; a king or a pauper; the guy who wiped out (almost) polio or john doe who lead a uneventful, 'no harm/no help' life... they would all be worm food.

I am an aethiest, and as far I am concerned there is no god. Even if there was, I don't care. I see no need to worship someone.

Christians do not need to worship someone either (although, that would make them non-christians). The worship is (or rather, should be) from desire and love of God.

I am perfectly happy in my life, I have my friends, family, a good job, and a great a life. I am truly happy. And THAT is all that matters in the end.

I'm glad that things are going well for you. And it is not promised that (earthly) life will be without pain and suffering (or persecution).



1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

(interesting way to get followers)

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

I am sure that almost everyone would agree, that they want to live a good happy life. And if there was no God, they would still want to live a good happy life.

This is a whole different arguement, so i'll just let it go with the simple comment of, "whether God exists or not, we can only know how people are now... we cannot see the other side of the coin"

So again, it does matter in the end. Unless you truly do not care about yourself or your life, then it would not matter. But if you don't want to live, why are you here?

I hope, atleast, that you see where my point was coming from.



**********

I think your point of view is misunderstood.

It seems like you speak from a point of view that you are meant to live a life of survitude under God. And if there is no God, then all purpose to your life has been lost, and you are like a lost robot.

You're only partially right. It is true that we are meant for servitude but the obverse is not to be as a "lost robot" but more of a "you cant take it with you" statement...and if that is true, then anyones current life is no different from before or after life.

If this is the case, you don't make that clear, and it makes it seem like the above character I mentioned who doesn't really want to live.

I've really got to find a better way of stating this.. everytime on TOTSE i'm either suicidal or homicidal. To my memory, you're the first to imply the possibility of both. Maybe it IS a clarity problem. Thanks for pointing it out. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

No, if there is no God (thus, no afterlife) then what it brings to your life in the meantime, is just as vain (or useless) as anyother living creature.

If there is God, we will be better off than most living creatures? How so?

We are only humans with finite mind, while God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-everything. Thus, God's existence will always trivialize ours.





Either you or i need to re-read what was posted.

For starters, I said, "if there is NO God.." where as you said, "if there is God..."

I agree with the pascals wager, but how I know my religion (christianity) it is almost impossible to burn in hell unless your name wasnt written in the book of life. I went to a catholic school for 9 years (kin.- 8)

and i'v learned alot of theology and im still taking ccd classes in my old school to prepare me for getting confirmed. I agree its a pain in the ass (extra hw, community service,etc.). I believe the only way to get into heaven directly is not to live a life as a good person doing only good all the time like flanders from the simpson, it is to admit to God that you are a sinner and be truly sorry for them with all your heart. God will forgive you as in theres absolutely nothing he cannot forgive. I feel alot better now although I still have a bit of doubt. But I will continue to pursue my religion whether God exists or not.

quote:Originally posted by p106_peppy:

How about balancing your time on totse and the internet with reading the bible? The internet is full of bullshit and falsifications. you can only find truth from the bible.



Ummm, just curious. Was this directed to me?

The reason i ask, is that Aeon posted:

quote:What? What kind of crap is that? I do believe he should read the bible and other forms of literature, and engage in discussion to figure out what he believes in, and so forth.

But to state that the bible is the "only truth" is utter crap.

If it was directed at me, i'm curious what gave the impression that i 'have not read or am not' reading the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Aeon:

Why must you choose a religion? How about no religion? Is this really so hard to comprehend? Why do feel and insist that you cannot live a life without worshipping a god?

I would pick none, because I am happy already and have a good life. None of them can offer me anything.

You mentioned, in the other post, about it mattering how one lives their life --implying, among other things, that one should treat others good. In light of that, how would you describe how you've treated people during your life?(i'm not looking for a response here, just look at it for yourself) Now, after you've thought about that, do the same thing in light of how God would Judge you, using His Commandments. For now, skip the First and Third (since you said you are an atheist)and, because you are an atheist, save the Second for last. (in case you arent sure what they are, i'll briefly name and describe them.. actually, this is from Luther's Small Catechism)

When you do this, do it with the assumption that the God of the Bible exists and that Jesus is God, so consider what Jesus said reguarding the Law.. that even if you keep all the Commandments, but fail on even one point, you are guilty of all.

quote:1. You must not have other gods.

Q. What does this mean?

A. We must fear, love, and trust God more than anything else.

2.You must not misuse God's name.

Q. What does this mean?

A. We must fear and love God, so that we will not use His name to curse, swear, cast a spell, lie or deceive, but will use it to call upon Him, pray to Him, praise Him and thank Him in all times of trouble.

3.You must keep the Sabbath holy.

Q. What does this mean?

A. We must fear and love God, so that we will not look down on preaching or God's Word, but consider it holy, listen to it willingly, and learn it.

4. You must honor your father and mother. [So that things will go well for you and you will live long on earth].

Q. What does this mean?

A. We must fear and love God, so that we will neither look down on our parents or superiors nor irritate them, but will honor them, serve them, obey them, love them and value them.

5. You must not kill.

Q. What does this mean?

A. We must fear and love God, so that we will neither harm nor hurt our neighbor's body, but help him and care for him when he is ill.

6.You must not commit adultery.

Q. What does this mean?

A. We must fear and love God, so that our words and actions will be clean and decent and so that everyone will love and honor their spouses.

7. You must not steal.

Q. What does this mean?

A. We must fear and love God, so that we will neither take our neighbor's money or property, nor acquire it by fraud or by selling him poorly made products, but will help him improve and protect his property and career.

8. You must not tell lies about your neighbor.

Q. What does this mean?

A. We must fear and love God, so that we will not deceive by lying, betraying, slandering or ruining our neighbor's reputation, but will defend him, say good things about him, and see the best side of everything he does.

9. You must not desire your neighbor's house.

Q. What does this mean?

A. We must fear and love God, so that we will not attempt to trick our neighbor out of his inheritance or house, take it by pretending to have a right to it, etc. but help him to keep & improve it.

10. You must not desire your neighbor's wife, servant, maid, animals or anything that belongs to him.

Q. What does this mean?

A. We must fear and love God, so that we will not release his cattle, take his employees from him or seduce his wife, but urge them to stay and do what they ought to do.

Pascals wager is rubbish - thanks paradise for posting the link.

quote: The internet is full of bullshit and falsifications. you can only find truth from the bible.

Fuck off mate.

quote:Also (if God does not exist), of what matter are things accomplished, or items acquired, or even your legacy after your 70 or so years are expired? If there is no God, then there is no difference between Hitler and Mother Theresa; a king or a pauper; the guy who wiped out (almost) polio or john doe who lead a uneventful, 'no harm/no help' life... they would all be worm food.

Indeed worm food is what we all are - i hate the way Humans seem to forget that they are just animals...humans arn't anything special, just advanced animals.

Delusions of granduer - seems that people flock to religion so that they can find comfort in the fairy tales of how special they are, how much they matter.

People; everyday, everywhere simply assume that we are more than physical - they assume that there is some kind of soul that will carry on after death. They hide from the fact that we arn't special.

There is no 'soul' there is no pain/happiness/fear/love/hate or any other sensation after death, such things are simply chemical reactions and electrical impulses in your brain. Once you die your brain does not function...

Ergo, death is the end.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

No, if there is no God (thus, no afterlife) then what it brings to your life in the meantime, is just as vain (or useless) as anyother living creature.



It's only useless if what it brings is not used...just like anything else.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

If it was directed at me, i'm curious what gave the impression that i 'have not read or am not' reading the Bible.



It was directed to the guy who meade the thread

quote:Originally posted by p106_peppy:

But it's more than that. No other religion can bring you the personal joy and satisfaction that Christianity can.

I was Christian once. It made me unhappy. I know more unhappy Christians than I do unhappy atheists - and I know more atheists overall. I know more happy Buddhists, as well.

This statement is, frankly, bullshit. You cannot know that, and from my experience it's actually the opposite. Happiness lies in the individual, not the religion.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-19-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by p106_peppy:

But it's more than that. No other religion can bring you the personal joy and satisfaction that Christianity can.

I was Christian once. It made me unhappy. I know more unhappy Christians than I do unhappy atheists - and I know more atheists overall. I know more happy Buddhists, as well.

This statement is, frankly, bullshit. You cannot know that, and from my experience it's actually the opposite. Happiness lies in the individual, not the religion.



Well I'd have to say then that your definition of a christian is skewed. By christian do you mean someone who was raised in a christian home and on occasion goes to church? Or do you mean someone who has a personal relationship with jesus christ?

I was an athiest once. But the logic didn't add up, and I was unhappy. So now I'm happy and the joy and satisfaction within me is so much that it's overflowing. I know many christians, many athiests, and many agnostics, and no one I know is as happy and content as the christians. Are you telling yourself you are happy? or are you really really happy?

Jesus said, "will never leave you, nor forsake you." That's why a christian converting is so rare. I don't know your exact situation, but I'd say that if you truely were a christian before, then now you're just telling yourself that you're an athiest, but your hear knows otherwise, and you will come back.

I was a Christian when I was like nine. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif) But yes, these are Real True Christians. I call them "fanatics", actually; it gets a little tiring because they're so into their religion. But a lot of them are plently unhappy, while I my very own self - atheist for years - am the happiest, most satisfied person I know. And genuinely, truly happy. I wouldn't change a single thing, really. No doubt you won't believe me and will tell yourself that I'm just deluding myself, but if it's a delusion I'm happy with it... meaning that I am happy after all. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by p106_peppy:

Jesus said, "will never leave you, nor forsake you." That's why a christian converting is so rare. I don't know your exact situation, but I'd say that if you truely were a christian before, then now you're just telling yourself that you're an athiest, but your hear knows otherwise, and you will come back.



Was a Catholic.

My parents and the rest of my family are all still Catholics. The onyl difference is they don't drag me to church anymore.

quote:Originally posted by outcast:



It's only useless if what it brings is not used...just like anything else.

How so?

Like i said before, "you cant take it with you (i.e. your legacy, material goods, how ya treated others, etc-- this, of course is, if God does not exist)".

Even while your alive, what difference does it make? Does that new car or house fulfill your happiness the rest of your life? When you were 9 and you helped the granny cross the street, did it complete you to this day? For the rest of your days? Let's say that you build a monument greater than all the Wonders of the World combined, so what? And in Ten Thousand years from now, you are still remembered for your cure of AIDs, how does that do anything for you when your dead? And really, what does that do for those future people?.. to them you are just "some guy" that invented some cure but no different from Hitler.. couple of dead guys that are taught about in history. But did that cure give immortality? happiness? justice?.. and even if it did, what does that matter?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



As long as there is a God, a Christian has a greater chance of being right than an atheist.

Not exactly. Being "wrong" or "right" is not important as being punished, or not punished, and in that category, they both have an equal chance.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Not exactly. Being "wrong" or "right" is not important as being punished, or not punished, and in that category, they both have an equal chance.



Rust, i think i might be misunderstanding you because i was responding to quasicurus who was responding to the existance of Satan and God, which implies punishment or reward.

If i mistook your statement, please clarify.

You said that as long as there was a god, a christian has a higher chance of being correct than an atheist.

What I'm saying is that that("being correct") is unimportant if an afterlife exists. Being "correct" or "incorrect" is trivial when compared to "being punished" and "being rewarded" -- and they are not the same thing, as least not for the atheist; there could be a god that does not punish atheists.

The fact is, that an atheist and a Christian have the same chance of being rewarded/punished. Thus, your statement was a trivial one.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Not exactly. Being "wrong" or "right" is not important as being punished, or not punished, and in that category, they both have an equal chance.

You are assuming Christians and atheists stand an equal chance of being pusnished in the afterlife ? On what grounds ? Do you know God's criteria for punishment ?

Furthermore, you are sidetracking the argument. He meant to say that Christians stand a chance of being more right than atheists if there is a God which is obviously true as their lifestyle is more or less adapted to there being a God. It seems reasonable to say that they are more "right" in this case then atheists.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

which is obviously true as their lifestyle is more or less adapted to there being a God.

Hardly; only to one hypothetical God, and then not nearly in all of the cases.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

You are assuming Christians and atheists stand an equal chance of being pusnished in the afterlife ? On what grounds ? Do you know God's criteria for punishment ?

I don't know his criteria for punishment, nor do I know which god, if any, exists, neither do you or him. Thus, the only fair estimation (and I never denied this was an estimation) would be to assume that every type of god is possible (by "type" I mean "God that punishes for X reason") and equally possible.

Thus, a god that punishes atheists while rewarding Christians is possible, just as a god that punishes Christians yet rewards atheists is possible as well. Find me a scenario were Christians would be rewarded and atheists punished, and I can find you another where atheists are rewarded and Christians punished.

quote:

Furthermore, you are sidetracking the argument. He meant to say that Christians stand a chance of being more right than atheists if there is a God which is obviously true as their lifestyle is more or less adapted to there being a God. It seems reasonable to say that they are more "right" in this case then atheists.

I know what he meant to say, what I'm saying is that what he meant to say is trivial. That is not "side-tracking" anything.