For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son...

I can never understand what is the big deal with this.

God did not really make any sacrifice. Neither did Jesus.

Jesus died, but he returned to his home---Heaven.

God did not sacrificed His Son.

Jesus is resurrected. Therefore, he doesn't really die.

Jesus was a wuss who left the troubled Earth for the comfort of his Home.

Talk about a spoiled little brat who feigned illness to escape school.

What God has really done is akin to Bill Gates firing his son (I know Bill Gates doesn't have a son that works for Microsoft, this is just a hypothetical case) from work, so that his son can retire on his daddy's little trust fund.

If anything, Jesus did not die for us humans. Every year, Muslims and Jews slaughter lambs so that God may forgive their sins. Because Jesus died for us, Christians don't have to slaughter lambs. Thus, Jesus died for the lambs.

Er...Jesus was the only human that never sinned.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Er...Jesus was the only human that never sinned.

So?

He is God!

How can he sin?

He ain't human!

Humans don't get resurrected.

Well you see, an omnipotent God that can do whatever he wants needed a blood sacrifice (for some reason) of a sinless being before he could trully forgive humanity.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Well you see, an omnipotent God that can do whatever he wants needed a blood sacrifice (for some reason) of a sinless being before he could trully forgive humanity.

Why couldn't God just literall snap his fingers and say "Let the sins be washed away" and absolve the sin of every man?

Here's why:

When I first heard the story of Jesus's sacrifice, I felt really sad.

I felt bad that it is because of me that Jesus have to die.

If God just washed away sins that easily, without involving the death of anyone, would I have felt sorry for Jesus? No.

God's allowing of Jesus to die in the cross, is none other than a cheap publicity stunt to draw our empathy.

God is omnipotent, He could just wash our sins by a snap of his finger. Same effect as Jesus' death, minus drama.



[This message has been edited by quasicurus (edited 10-20-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

So?

He is God!

How can he sin?

He ain't human!

Humans don't get resurrected.

What the hell are you talking about? Bible or reality?

Assuming that you mean the bible:

1. Jesus was human when he walked on earth. He actually prayed to god. There would be no need for this if he was god himself at this point. That's the point with Trinity.

2. Being human involves the ability to sin. Jesus certainly was able to take a sword and stab someone if he wanted.

3. Humans don't get resurrected? What about Lazarus and the boy who got resurrected in the Old Testament?

quote:Originally posted by Darwinist:

What the hell are you talking about? Bible or reality?

Assuming that you mean the bible:

1. Jesus was human when he walked on earth. He actually prayed to god. There would be no need for this if he was god himself at this point. That's the point with Trinity.

2. Being human involves the ability to sin. Jesus certainly was able to take a sword and stab someone if he wanted.

3. Humans don't get resurrected? What about Lazarus and the boy who got resurrected in the Old Testament?

Can human perform miracles?

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

Can human perform miracles?

Again: bible or reality?

Assuming bible: Moses, Elijah, Isaiah,...

quote:Originally posted by Darwinist:

1. Jesus was human when he walked on earth. He actually prayed to god. There would be no need for this if he was god himself at this point. That's the point with Trinity.

You're slightly mistaken about that, but the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a bit complicated. To Christians the Holy Trinity means the god has three aspects, the Father, the Son and the holy spirit. Jesus didn't pray to God, he prayed to the Father. The reasoning is that Jesus isn't the Father, nor is either of them the same as the Holy Spirit, but all three of them make up God. It's the same thing as taking a triangle, side A is different from sides B and C, but together they form a single triangle.

It's hard to know if the historical Jesus would have agreed with this. Some believe that his death was an unexpected disaster for his followers, because they had been expecting him to personally usher in an age of paradise on earth. This argument goes that in order to keep the cult of Jesus going, that they invented the story about how you can only find salvation through believing in him. If you think about it, that's quite a smart way to motivate some people into becoming followers of your religion. However keep in mind that the gospels used in the Bible are simply the ones that the Church decided to use a few centuries after Jesus' death.

If you read the Gospel of Thomas for instance - a gospel about what Jesus was supposed to have said himself, where the main gospels in the Bible are narratives on the supposed story of his life - there's nothing in it that suggests you need Jesus as a middle man for salvation, or a church for that matter. The Gospel of Thomas suggests that finding God is a person experience that individuals are supposed to follow on their own, to develop an individual communion with God. So you can see why the Church has never been very fond of it. I personally think that the Church is a gross and terrible perversion of Jesus' original message, but that's just me.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Er...Jesus was the only human that never sinned.

Are you sure

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

Are you sure

I'd hope I'm sure. It's a key part of the Christian religion; that Jesus was sinless. Lost Cause seemed to think he sinned against God too. Ironic considering he is part of God; God is perfect; God cannot sin against himself, lest he lose his perfection and no longer be God. It would be like, 'the fall of God', if God were to sin.

god could have gave any perfect angel, btu instead "he loved the world so much that he ave his only-begotten son"

quote:Originally posted by john_deer:

god could have gave any perfect angel, btu instead "he loved the world so much that he ave his only-begotten son"

Why do people keep thinking that God lsoe something? God didn't lose anything.

-1+1=0

Jesus died and was resurrected.

He didn't really die.

God did not lose a son.

Jesus is a Super Saiyan. When he died, his wife and mother along with a bunch of bearded men gathered the 7 Dragon Balls and wished Jesus back, who came twice as strong. He's now better knows as Dolph Lundgren.

This is a true story, I swear to God!

Jesus killed a child in his own childhood. And he was a nuisance when he was younger.

Otherwise, Jesus was important because he had superior linguistic skills throughout his life, just as the child who started the children's crusade.

He was the Hitler of his day--awesome linguistic skills and the ability to relate and represent his people.

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

Can human perform miracles?



No, but close to it.

Some are really close to it.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

God is perfect; God cannot sin against himself, lest he lose his perfection and no longer be God. It would be like, 'the fall of God', if God were to sin.

Yeah, god would kick god's ass if he caught god doing something god don't like. It ain't easy to be god and have to do whatever god wants.

That's why god sacrificed god's son, to make god happy, so he could save the people god would have sent to hell.

Because only god can save us from god. That's just the way it is - it's not like god designed it that way.



[This message has been edited by Viraljimmy (edited 10-23-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Er...Jesus was the only human that never sinned.



Bull shit. Nobody can prove that. Obviously, he can sin in privacy, which could lead someone to beleive he never has.

Just like one might think a preacher is not a sinner, but on his spare time he molests boys.

The closest person to a non-sinner I can think of is the Dalai Lama, and even still, he has probably sinned at least once in his life, maybe as a young boy.

There is no proof that Jesus never sinned, just like there is no proof of what color skin dinosaurs had.

I don't buy the whole Jesus sacrificing himself to rid humans of all sins for eternity.

Anyone could just say their death will mean 'this' or mean 'that' when they die. But it doesn't really mean it will happen, or will come true.

If Jesus gave himself up for sin, it seems like a waste, cause there is sin everywhere still, just like there always has been, and probably always will exist. It just doesn't make sense at all.

Why would I accept him as my savior? He did nothing for me personally. Are we all not born innocent anyways? Whether we are or not, you don't stay innocent very long either way, so it still wouldn't make a difference.

You still have to work to get into heaven anways.

I don't see how people can buy into this story.

It is sort of like, if a friend gives you an 'item' as a gift. You think it is a nice/sweet gesture, and thank that person, thinking they are nice.

But then later you find out that they have boxes full of this 'item', that they recieved for free.

All of the sudden, this gift you recieved is less in value than you thought it was. Not only monetarily, but sentimentally. This person probably not only gave you this 'item', but everyone in th neighborhood.

If someone can just be resurrected at any time, then that person's death is meaningless.

If I had a friend who was immortal in this fashion, and he told me he was going to go jump off a cliff and die. I would just tell him "have fun", cause I know he'll be back for dinner.

[This message has been edited by Aeon (edited 10-24-2005).]

quote:You still have to work to get into heaven anways.

What religion do you subscribe to, anyway?

quote:Originally posted by ate:



These two posts, really explain it all. Of course if needed anything could happen at the will of the creator the one true creator of the universe, but he wouldn't want it to be like that because it doesn't have to. There can be better ways in which it is done out of pure will of love of the one he creates. Obviously that's much harder, takes much more time and more pain but if God were to break all the rules, which he perfectly could, why would he even bother putting all of this together in the first place? What's the point if there is no learning done? Why would the all powerful and truly omnipotent God just snap his fingers to get something done? What the fuck? Why wouldn't he have just blown the whole fucking cosmos into oblivion at the first sign of us humans fucking up? Because shit is never like that and simply put God is better than some peice shit on totse that would just take the easy way out. Kind of like comparing your method of logic to one who commits suicide, it's sickly desceptive, no?

Anyway, pardon the swearing, but doesn't it make more sense for it to happen like that, rather than some guy sitting up in the heavens just waiting to snap his fingers at the first sign of delay...everything need time and every gain every single overcoming needs sacrifice it needs something some pain or trouble that has to be overcome. Nothing just happens like a fairy tale.



It really really is a beautiful event to happen and a sacrifice so carefully and thoughtfully decided on that no one in the world would ever do it again.



Wow. I thought that this made no sense at all, but then I read it over again - more carefully - and realized that it was actually pure bullshit.

ate, what if you are actually

full of shit. Just think about it.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Er...Jesus was the only human that never sinned.

haha, so says christianity

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

haha, so says christianity

Um, Christianity says, Jesus was/is God with us.

Jesus was a sin0r bcuz he hurt t3h mun33l3n3rzz!!!!

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Um, Christianity says, Jesus was/is God with us.

Either way, it's not a big deal.

If Jesus is God, then it's expected that he can't sin.

If Jesus is human, there's nothing special about him, as humans can perform miracles (Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel) and humans can be resurrected too (Lazarus) and humans can also be without sin (Job is upright and perfect).

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Er...Jesus was the only human that never sinned.

What about Mary? Catholics say she never sinned (I'm not sure about Prosties).

Mary provided the egg, and God magically appeared some chromosomes. Jesus was either short, or got physically impregnated her. I don't understand why that is so difficult for Christians to accept. Even if he didn't penetrate her... Jesus did, from the inside out.

MARY LOST HER VIRGINITY TO JESUS!

Nice metaphor though.

crunchy taco supremes are delicious.

Jesus is 100% human and 100% God-wrap your mind around that one.

Also, in regards to miracles. Jesus freed us from a need to rely on miracles in order to have effective faith when he denied Satan in the desert. Miracles are irrelevant.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Anyway, pardon the swearing, but doesn't it make more sense for it to happen like that, rather than some guy sitting up in the heavens just waiting to snap his fingers at the first sign of delay...everything need time and every gain every single overcoming needs sacrifice it needs something some pain or trouble that has to be overcome. Nothing just happens like a fairy tale.







hmm. interesting. you say it 'doesn't make sense'. i think the incarnation 'doesn't make sense' how can 1+1=1?

i think its pretty funny you talk about things making sense, when the christian religion is known for things not making sense.

and what makes you think, with your earthly little human mind, that you have the capacity to understand 'what makes sense' and what doesn't make sense to god?

Socrates > Jesus

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Mary lost her virginity to God.

Or at least God as in the one who fathered the perfect man. This father could only be considered God because we are such heathenistic people, yet in reality we know he is not God, just closer to Him than we are and may ever be.



I smell a pagan!