My faith is weak...i want to believe...but the rational side just won`t let me....if there is a GOD, and he created all.....where`s the dinosaurs fit into this....I`ve never read the whole Bible,but i know a little, and I`ve never heard mention of them in the book....can someone give me some insight...?

"The Bible refers to many the common animals we know today. The list includes lions, wolves, bears, sheep, cattle and dogs along with various kinds of birds, rodents, reptiles, and insects. What is interesting is that this extensive list includes three animals that we no longer recognize. These three are (in the original Hebrew language) tanniyn, b@hemowth (yes, it’s spelled correctly—at least as close as we can get in Roman characters), and livyathan.

Although we alter the spelling of behemoth and Leviathan slightly, we still use those same words in bibles today. However, tanniyn is always translated into another word when we write it in English. Tanniyn occurs 28 times in the Bible and is normally translated “dragon.” It is also translated “serpent,” “sea monster,” “dinosaur,” “great creature,” and “reptile.” Behemoth and Leviathan are relatively specific creatures, perhaps each was a single kind of animal. Tanniyn is a more general term, and it can be thought of as the original version of the word “dinosaur.” The word “dinosaur” was originally coined in 1841, more than three thousand years after the Bible first referred to “Tanniyn.”

Reading the Bible carefully, you will realize that no living creature matches the descriptions of behemoth and Leviathan. However, if you grab a kid’s dinosaur book, you will notice several possible matches for each one.

Behemoth has the following attributes according to Job 40:15-24



It “eats grass like an ox.”

It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets hang his tail like a cedar.”)

Its “bones are like beams of bronze,

His ribs like bars of iron.”

“He is the first of the ways of God.”

“He lies under the lotus trees,

In a covert of reeds and marsh.”

Some bibles and study bibles will translate the word “behemoth” as “elephant” or “hippopotamus.” Others will put a note at the edge or bottom of the page, stating that behemoth was probably an elephant or a hippopotamus. Although an elephant or hippopotamus can eat grass (or lie in a covert of reeds and marsh), neither an elephant or a hippopotamus has a “tail like a cedar” (that is, a tail like a large, tapered tree trunk). In a kid’s dinosaur book you will find lots of animals that have “tails like a cedar.”

Leviathan has the following attributes according to Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1. This is only a partial listing—just enough to make the point.

“No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.”

“Who can open the doors of his face, with his terrible teeth all around?”

“His rows of scales are his pride, shut up tightly as with a seal; one is so near another that no air can come between them; they are joined one to another, they stick together and cannot be parted.”

“His sneezings flash forth light, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go burning lights; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke goes out of his nostrils, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His breath kindles coals, and a flame goes out of his mouth.”

“Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; he laughs at the threat of javelins.”

“On earth there is nothing like him, which is made without fear.”

Leviathan “played” in the “great and wide sea” (a paraphrase of Psalm 104 verses 25 and 26—get the exact sense by reading them yourself).

Leviathan is a “reptile [a] that is in the sea.” (Isaiah 27:1)

Unlike behemoth, who is huge, Leviathan is ferocious and terrifying. Many references (we have not listed them all) refer to the sea, so Leviathan is probably a sea creature. Although some bibles refer to Leviathan as an alligator or crocodile (and both of these are fierce) neither of these is a sea creature. They like the water, but they spend much of their time on land. Further, the question “Who can open the doors of his face. . . .” implies that nobody can open Leviathan’s jaws. Although an alligator's jaws cannot normally be forced open, a punch to their sensitive snout or poke in eye might startle them enough to release their grip.[2] Although this is a good description of an alligator characteristic, it does not fit perfectly with the description of Leviathan, which in the context of the Bible was supposed to describe an essentially impossible event.

The description of the scales is interesting. Several verses describe these great scales. Compared to Leviathan’s armor, iron is like straw and arrows ca not make it flee. Let’s face it, an arrow can do a lot of damage to a crocodile or alligator. This is not a description of either of them—or any living animal we are aware of.

And now for the key ingredient: fire. It is hard to read Job 41:18-21 without realizing the Bible is telling us that Leviathan breathes fire. That alone will eliminate almost every living animal. Yes, there is one animal like that in today’s world. It is called a bombardier beetle. This beetle is a native of Central America, and has a nozzle in its hind end that acts like a little flame thrower. It sprays a high-temperature jet of gas (fueled by hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide with oxidative enzymes) for protection. Now, if a Central American beetle can do it, so could Leviathan. By the way, crocodiles and alligators are out of the picture on this one, don’t you agree?

Before we leave the topic of fire, there are two more notes you may find interesting:

The history of every culture is filled with stories of fire-breathing dragons. If you think about it, in all the past ages wouldn’t someone have made up a story of a fire-breathing lion or something? Nobody did because the dragon stories are based on truth, and only “dragons” breathed fire. It is easy to imagine Leviathan as a member of the dragon (tanniyn) family. (Plus, Isaiah 27:1 strongly implies this connection.)

Many fossil dinosaur skulls contain unexplained, empty passages. Scientists have not been able to guess the reason for these passages. Would it make sense that some dinosaurs used these passages as “gas tanks” for the combustible mixture used to “breathe fire?”

Comparing all this information to the description in a kid’s dinosaur book, you may come up with the conclusion that Leviathan is a kronosaurus. The kronosaurus is the best match of any known creature to the description of Leviathan."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by p106_peppy:

[B]"The Bible refers to many the common animals we know today. The list includes lions, wolves, bears, sheep, cattle and dogs along with various kinds of birds, rodents, reptiles, and insects. What is interesting is that this extensive list includes three animals that we no longer recognize. These three are (in the original Hebrew language) tanniyn, bahemowth (yes, it’s spelled correctly—at least as close as we can get in Roman characters), and livyathan.

Although we alter the spelling of behemoth and Leviathan slightly, we still use those same words in bibles today. However, tanniyn is always translated into another word when we write it in English. Tanniyn occurs 28 times in the Bible and is normally translated “dragon.” It is also translated “serpent,” “sea monster,” “dinosaur,” “great creature,” and “reptile.” Behemoth and Leviathan are relatively specific creatures, perhaps each was a single kind of animal. Tanniyn is a more general term, and it can be thought of as the original version of the word “dinosaur.” The word “dinosaur” was originally coined in 1841, more than three thousand years after the Bible first referred to “Tanniyn.”

Reading the Bible carefully, you will realize that no living creature matches the descriptions of behemoth and Leviathan. However, if you grab a kid’s dinosaur book, you will notice several possible matches for each one.

Wow, quality work stealing that from http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml you should feel proud you can steal other people's writings.

I loved how they left out parts of the bible. Great work. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Behemoth

The bible also says, "17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together."

"23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, [and] hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.

24 He taketh it with his eyes: [his] nose pierceth through snares."

Strongs defines "moveth" as "to delight in" "Move" or "bend down." So the verse isn't saying his tail is as long or wide as a cedar but that it acts like a cedar. It is thought that tail is slang for penis especially when you see the next part talking about stones (testicles).

Now, they left out the part where he is able to drink up a river.

A hippo sounds about right to me. If they were referring to a dinosaur they oddly left out defining features such as a very long neck, or thick stomping legs.

Trying to twist the bible to say dinosaur when it doesn't is sad.

Leviathan

It's a bit more mythical sounding. However I like how they link the hot liquid a beetle shoots to the never discovered fire breathing dinosaur and act like that is actual evidence. Many chambers found in dinosaurs are thought to be resonance chambers most likely related to mating calls. Can you imagine the devastation a fire breathing dinosaur could cause?

tanniyn

Tanniyn is translated into sea monster dragon or even whale. It's constant connection with the sea (when not being used symbolically) would suggest it can't be connected directly to dinosaur which is a group of animals, both land and sea.

I would very much question the claim that "The history of every culture is filled with stories of fire-breathing dragons." Show me the evidence please.

I really think the writer should stop looking at kids dinosaur books and start looking at adult works.

alpha -beginning

omega -end

beta -???????

please inform me beta69

Dinosaurs don't have anything

to do with the bible.

They were long gone before

any men were alive.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

please inform me beta69

Beta would be the second most important.

No. 1: Dinosaurs aren't proven to have existed. I know that sounds insane. I myself, very much believe in dinosaurs, but for something reasons unknown to me at the moment, it's not a proven fact that they existed.

No. 2: Perhaps god created dinosaurs to evolve into what they are today.

No. 3: Dinosaurs existed long before humans did. Now they're saying that they're existances probably overlapped for a while, but they were mostly around before people, so who knows, may be god was still busy creating the rest of the universe and hadn't gotten around to people yet.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

No. 1: Dinosaurs aren't proven to have existed. I know that sounds insane. I myself, very much believe in dinosaurs, but for something reasons unknown to me at the moment, it's not a proven fact that they existed.

Please go into detail... I need a laugh.

quote:Originally posted by p106_peppy:

Behemoth/Leviathan

Small catch: there were more than two dinosaurs. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

No. 1: Dinosaurs aren't proven to have existed. I know that sounds insane. I myself, very much believe in dinosaurs, but for something reasons unknown to me at the moment, it's not a proven fact that they existed.

I would have thought that all of the fossil evidence was pretty hard to ignore. And things like the wooly mammoth that was found frozen solid in Siberia?

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

And things like the wooly mammoth that was found frozen solid in Siberia?

Trick of Satan...

i wondered this once too, so i asked a christian friend of mine. she said that God supposdly created the earth in 6 days. she then said that God's time and our (as humans) time greatly differ, so His 6 days is the same as like 6,000,000,000 years or something. then i asked her about fossils and she had to leave. not very strong evidence towards the bible. and LostCause, care to elaborate, i always thought the fossils showed they were real

But the biblical timeframe sets the age of the world to 6-12,000 years old give or take. Even if you are sceptical of dating techniques such as Potassium-Argon dating, one would be hard pressed to say that these bones have been around for less time than that, just by the layer of stratified soil they are found in.

If something exists outside of the biblical timeframe, then technically it cannot exist by the bible, but they are there. Not just Dinosaurs; skeletons dating to over 3 million years ago of a human ancestor... To be honest, the book of Genesis is just a myth to explain the creation of the world. The reason Dinosaurs don't come into the frame is because they hadn't discovered any skeletons yet!

The only way to get around this would be to say the world is older than 12,000 years old, and then there is a lot more explaining to do - as it insinuates MODERN man was walking around at possibly a much longer time than the Archaeological record suggests, which is at about 3.9-4.2 million years ago as it stands, and if you are talking about walking alongside the Dinosaurs, about 65 million years...

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

I would have thought that all of the fossil evidence was pretty hard to ignore. And things like the wooly mammoth that was found frozen solid in Siberia?

I agree. I'm not saying I don't believe in dinosaurs. I'm saying it's not a proven fact. I'm not even sure why it's not a proven fact. You should probably ask Digital Savior about that, because she's a religious extremist. I'm sure she doesn't believe in them.

Cheers,

Lost

Twiggy: Never underestimate religious morons. I have ran into people have had told me dinosaurs don't exist, their bones were placed in the ground by God to trick us into thinking they did. It is a test of our faith in the bible being literally correct even when we see evidence in contrary of that.

Then there are others who have claimed dinosaurs never existed, these bones are really what demons looked like and God sent them into the earth.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Wow, quality work stealing that from http: //www.clar ifyingchri stianity.com/dinos.shtml (http: //www.clar ifyingchri stianity.c om/dinos.s html) you should feel proud you can steal other people's writings.



I put quotation marks arround it, didn't I?

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

Small catch: there were more than two dinosaurs.

Yes, and there are more animals in existance than the bible mentions. Just because only two are worthy of mention does not mean there were only two.

Quotes around the article doesn't mean you didn't plagiarize. Not only did you not cite a source you will notice the site allows you to copy it as long as you copy the entire thing including the copyright information. Lack of citation or total article is plagiarism and thus stealing.

Since the bible doesn't even mention two dinosaurs, I don't see the point here. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

Please go into detail... I need a laugh.

We need more information... Those are the words you are going to be looking at for eternity as an answer about anything scientific.

I personally believe dinosaurs did exist.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Science proves this earth has been here for quite awhile. We haven't been here no where near as long as this earth, so apparently God created the Heavens and the Earth long before he created man.

Personally, I'm the type of person who believes science doesn't disprove God, it explains him, and proves him more than what it knows.

Who's to say evolution wasn't taking place back in this time? No one. Who's to say it did? You have to also take into account, the fact that Satan 1/3rd of the Angels were cast down to the Earth. You too have to take into account that they were and are invisible spiritual beings, but they exist.

I'll go into how I heard it espounded on.

The bible says God said, "Let there be light." Not, that he created the light. The bible also says God IS the light. Light ceased to shine, the Earth froze, and all that was in it. Later, he said, "Let there be light".

It said, he CREATED the Heavens and the Earth, but said, "LET THERE BE light".

1IN THE beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the heavens and the earth.

2The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.



If I LET you do something, then I give my consent, I ALLOW it to be done.

"The earth was" So apparently, THE EARTH WAS, before it was formed. It was here, but it was without form, it was nothingness. Invisible, but here.

Man you know what.. I ain't doing this. I'll post on that, but I'm not doing the rest for ya. I'm sorry, but I can't. It's like this, You need to seek GOD, and what he says, not peoples opinions. When you seek GOD he'll give you an answer, when you seek MAN they'll give you what THEY think.

I love you man, but I can't do it. You're going to have to seek God, and break the word down. If you're doubting God, there's your problem, you don't have faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. SEEK GOD.

"My faith is weak...i want to believe...but the rational side just won`t let me....if there is a GOD, and he created all.....where`s the dinosaurs fit into this....I`ve never read the whole Bible,but i know a little, and I`ve never heard mention of them in the book....can someone give me some insight...?"

Maybe you should seek your own personal religion. It's ridiculous to try and base your faith off of a book that confounds even it's own staunch believers.

Cant you believe in treating people fairly and being a decent person without bothering with dinosaurs? It's the themes and ideas (like non-violence and morality) in the bible that matter, not the plot.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Twiggy: Never underestimate religious morons. I have ran into people have had told me dinosaurs don't exist, their bones were placed in the ground by God to trick us into thinking they did.

I found a christian website once that said dinosaurs still exist. And that they were raising money to capture some and that would somehow proove the Bible right or something.

I guess it does make sense for me to kill the dinosaurs that I find in my backyard.

I have no problem with the values of Christianity. I think being a good person and helping you fellow man is all well and good. I just have doubts about devoting myself to a being that may vary well exist only in our minds. Seeking my faith is what I`m trying to do. Part of that is asking questions, and a question I always had was what about the dinosaurs.

I pray just like everyone else, I`ve gone to church in my life, and i hope when I die there is an afterlife and my sins can be forgiven. But I worry everyday that religion is just a fraud, a bedtime story if you will, that has just been passed down through the ages to keep mankinds impulses under control.

Is the Bible a work of fact or fiction? It not mentioning the dinos is just the tip of my doubts. I know theres no definite answers to be found with the responses to my post. I am just wanting to hear your point of views on the subject. Maybe it will add some insight into my own thoughts...?

quote:Originally posted by BiggCatt:

My faith is weak...

I'm guessing you're affiliated with one of the Christian denominations?

To other Christians, if you believe the earth is really 2005 years old, can you explain the Jews and their year? I believe it is 5766....

They don't believe it's only 2005 years old... more like 6000-10,000.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

They don't believe it's only 2005 years old... more like 6000-10,000.

You got your hardcore Christians who believe the earth is 2005 years old, and nothing more/less.

Religion aint nothing but a bunch of ancient stories. Get over yourselves.

I've never heard of Christians who think the world started when Jesus was born. Think about it, the bible says that God created Adam and Eve along with the rest of creation. After they were cast out of the Garden of Eden, they had children which gradually populated the Earth until eventually Jesus was born. I don't think any Christians ignored all that important stuff, like say the entire Old Testament, before Jesus hit the scene.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

I've never heard of Christians who think the world started when Jesus was born.

Well, now you have.

It's a really small minority, but yes, they do exist. When I first heard this (it was on ABC News), I too laughed. They exactly think Earth is 2005 years old. When asked why they believed in such, I just remember laughing.

I believe it. There was/is a small group of christians that believe the world is flat. Man has never travelled to space and all those spherical earth pictures you see are part of a satanic conspiracy to destroy the truth of the bible.

There is also a small (but larger than the flat earther) group that believes the geocentric model of the universe, as supported by the bible is true and all those who think the sun is really the center of our "solar" system have been brainwashed by satan to corrupt the bible.

Holy shit. I had to check this out for myself because I didn't think people could be that close minded, but it turns out my faith in religious fundamentalists was too high.

This following link is not for the weak of heart:

http://tinyurl.com/7kuau

First thing that caught my eye on the page is how it describes itself as being a forum of theological discussion "for Christians only". Well fair enough, I suppose, but still not very inclusive is it.

Then I read the first post (the thread's about how old the world is):

quote:How old do you think the earth is? I think it's about 4500 years. The Egyptions(I think it was them... ) counted from 2000 backwards, and when they ran out of numbers(lol), they started at 1 on up.

When my eyes ran over the letters I think I consciously rejected what it was really saying, and passed on to the next post. Only after I read this:

quote:i would go so far as to say the earth is an indeterminate age

did I realise, like Hunter S Thompson, that I was in bat country, and re-read the first post again.

There are a couple of reasonable voices later on, although the thread keeps giving gold:

quote:welll according to mt latest geological sedimentation study in the messopotamian region, i would have to conclude that as of 12:27 AM estern time, that the earth is 4967 years, 135 days, 13 hours, 52 mins, and 27 seconds old. ofcourse this conclusion may be slighty off due to soil erosion?

quote:its as old as time! and thats a fact!

Scary.

^^^I rest my case.

Good thing my parents saw the light that Christianity, and really, all religions alike, are bullshit.

Now, they go in so far as to say that God doesn't exist. I'm not at that stage yet; I just don't believe in the bullshit stories that were twisted throughout the centuries.

If you like those you really should check out Fundies say the darndest things, http://fstdt.com/

A site of quotes taking from different online forums. It even includes some pictures such as an unintentional bible pissing on a computer and an unintentional penis on the cover of a book called "after you've blown it." http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Urgh. imperfectcircle's link brings back some bad memories... I went to a school filled with that exact sort of person, for three years. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) It was horrible. I mean, they'd say things like "Yeah, because if the Big Bang was true why aren't monkeys half-evolved into people?!" and I'd feel like screaming "YOU FUCKING IDIOT YOU'VE GOTTEN IT ALL WRONG!!!!1!1!1" but I couldn't because they'd kick me out http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

I went to a school filled with that exact sort of person, for three years. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) It was horrible. I mean, they'd say things like "Yeah, because if the Big Bang was true why aren't monkeys half-evolved into people?!" and I'd feel like screaming "YOU FUCKING IDIOT YOU'VE GOTTEN IT ALL WRONG

There, there. The US is a lot like your school nowadays. If Europe somehow moved away from heavily relying on religion, why can't we? Do we always have to be different from our predecessors?

Anyone else find it ironic we left europe because of religious persecution and guess what the US is turning into.

I'm not quite sure why fundementalism has been growing. My best guess is because there are plenty of ignorant people and there are plenty of currupt religious leaders and politicians that will twist them and pander to them as long as it makes them a buck/gets them elected.

Europe didn't become largely secular by chance. It wouldn't have happened without the Enlightenment in the 18th century, which attempted to replace dogmatic religion with reason. But what happened during this period in America and Europe was very different.

In Europe, what probably set the trend for the growing trend towards secularism, was the French Revolution, because when the people revolted and got rid of the royal family they also got rid of their religion. When they drew up their declaration of the universal rights of man it was written in a very secular manner, and religion has been kept out of the government very strictly ever since.

America on the other hand was founded by religious Puritans, who weren't overthrowing any religious power in their country (if we can ignore the Native Americans for one second), and when they drafted their Declaration of Independence it explicitly made reference to a "Creator" from whom rights are given. America has been religious from the start, and over the last 200 years religion has remained a very strong presence, despite the ways of many members of it's intellectual elite over that time.

Look at the the division between "liberals" and "conservatives" in America today, it's strangely like the tensions during the Enlightenment in Europe all those years ago. Liberalism originated with the rational thinkers in Europe who were trying to establish a secular humanist philosophy to replace the narrow minded ways of the Church, while modern conservatism originated in that same period as a reaction to this movement and attempt to maintain monarchy (the American Revolution was in fact a conservative revolution, not liberal). Keep that mind mind the next time you hear people playing the conservative/liberal name-calling game in America next time, it's about more than just the politics of the day.

^^^One of the best, well written and planned posts on totse. No sarcasm intended.

I never actually looked at it from your angle there, imperfectcircle.

So, in reality, the US isn't really separated on the issue of church and state...?

Edit: Did you lump the American Revolution as trying to preserve monarchy?

[This message has been edited by Anger Management (edited 10-23-2005).]

Good post. One error is that not all of America were puritans, many of our founding fathers were deists and quakers and secular minded, creator meant something different to them then it does to most christians today. Although America is much more religion oriented than other places.

Some of what we see, like fundamentalism and creationism in their current forms are relatively new.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Although America is much more religion oriented than other places.

It seems like if you're an American, you must be both religious and patriotic to live here nowadays.

Am I delusional here? I'm American too, by the way.

[This message has been edited by Anger Management (edited 10-23-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Anger Management:

You got your hardcore Christians who believe the earth is 2005 years old, and nothing more/less.

Religion aint nothing but a bunch of ancient stories. Get over yourselves.

Then you have your more intellectual Christians who aren't ignorant of B.C. and A.D. Um, I'd like to see how many Christians believe this world is only 2005 years old. I'd like their ages as well. That's very insulting. Not that you would say that about Christians, but that there probably are Christians who believe that, allowing you cause to say that about Christians in general. You can't gereralize Christians like that. You can't even call those 'christians' who do believe that, christians. You CAN call them ignorant. I'm sorry, but if you're a 'christian' and you believe that junk, THE OT took place in B.C. times.

Added: You want me to tell you what it is? Those believers are trying to make sense of the Word of God with their mind, and their FAITH is weak, so they take out a big part of History to 'help' them. Which only makes them weaker. That's called building a foundation on a lie, or on something that isn't true, how then can you say your FAITH is true? OUCH!

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 10-23-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Anger Management:

So, in reality, the US isn't really separated on the issue of church and state...?

Edit: Did you lump the American Revolution as trying to preserve monarchy?

Thanks for the compliment http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) But it's not an original viewpoint of mine or anything.

As for separation of church and state, that's a bit more complicated isn't it? I mean there's no direct influence, as it would be illegal without a constitutional amendment. But the separation of church and state doesn't necessarily mean that it was intended to keep government secular. What the first amendment explicity talks about is the freedom to exercise religion, and that the government should not interfere in this.

The actual term the "separation of church and state" isn't in the amendment, it comes from a letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists, assuring them of their inanlienable right to practise their religion. If you consider this in the context of the original pilgrims going to America to escape religious persecution, it makes a lot of sense. Likewise the prohibition in the amendment against a state religion, it makes more sense as a method of preventing state interference in religious expression (against any type of Christianity in particular) than it does to prevent the state from becoming a theocracy of any kind.

The thing today is that even though the government doesn't influence religious behaviour, religion influences governmental behaviour. There are no religious leaders who call the shots like in a full blown theocracy such as Iran, but the influence doesn't have to be direct. Bush has to be one of the most overtly religious presidents in recent times, openly coming out with things like "Jesus is my favorite philosopher", "God told me to do this", "God bless America" (every time he opens his mouth), and so on. But more importantly consider his position on certain key issues: abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, supreme court appointments, faith-based initiatives, etc. Does he choose these things because of his faith? Or does he choose them to please Christian conservatives (considering he might not have won his election campaign or gotten a congressional majority without them)? Either way religion is influencing governmental policies.

As for the implication that the American Revolution had some intention of maintaining monarcy, I didn't intend that. The preservation of monarchy is one of the forces that created the modern conservatist movement in Europe, but what it was essentially about was maintaining old ways instead of replacing them with new ones. What made the American Revolution conservative was that it didn't try to fundamentally change American society, if anything they thought it was the English who were threatening to change it through their executive and fiscal interference from abroad. What the Americans actually wanted to keep the same "English liberties", keep the same religious and social values, keep their way of life etc, and just change the fact that they were being controlled by outside influences.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Good post. One error is that not all of America were puritans, many of our founding fathers were deists and quakers and secular minded, creator meant something different to them then it does to most christians today. Although America is much more religion oriented than other places.

Yeah I see how that sentence read like the Puritans who were the founding fathers, my mistake. I meant more to emphasise the Puritan origins, although all of the founding fathers were nonetheless Christian as far as I know (and in addition to the word "Creator" they also used the word "God" in the Declaration of Independence).

its my understanding that at least a portion of the "founding fathers" were deists. they believed in a creator, but were not necissarily christians.

quote:Originally posted by Anger Management:

It seems like if you're an American, you must be both religious and patriotic to live here nowadays.



Not just that but many people have linked religion and christianity to patriotism. If you aren't christian or don't say "God bless america" then you aren't a real patriot.

I think that stems from the Cold war. Communist Russia forced atheism on it's people. To distinquish itself from the evil Russians the American government and other groups starting pushing religion. Partly to pander to the people who can't think beyond "Christian good, atheist bad" Groups such as the Knights for Columbus took advantage of that and pushed for a more christian supporting government (since after all, if you didn't support christianity you must be a communist). You can thank them for God on our money and in the Pledge.



Imperfect circle:

One thing to point out is that although seperation of church and state isn't in the constitution, that document was never meant to stand on its own. Many rullings since then have fleshed out exactly what the seperation clause means and they support the idea of a secular government (how well our government follows this is another matter).

God is mentioned in the declaration but in an odd way,

"to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God"

Just like "creator" this can be left open to multiple versions of God and fits with a deist perspective.



[This message has been edited by Beta69 (edited 10-23-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

*another beautiful post by...a totsean!



Well, original idea or not, you're spreading the word of what you've heard/learned, and it's giving me fuel to see all the crap in Christianity and America. I know it may not have been your intention of trying to make me hate all religions, but, I hated all religions before anyway. Your info has just strengthened my own beliefs.

For the American Revolution and it being a conservative change, I understand now. I just never saw it as "liberal" and "conservative" changes, although I am touching upon the French Revolution in my history class as being the most liberal revolution in Europe, ever, of which I do agree. (I'm in college history, not high school; pfft, if anything, high schools are nothing more than a nursery for horny youths.)

You said the current administration is the most religious, at least in front of the camera, ever. Gees, I couldn't agree any less (b/c English is so tricky: I absolutely agree). I really see no point of God in the role of what's going on in the Middle East, and I think it would be more beneficial if Bush cut that "God made me do this" bullshit out. That way, Muslim extremists won't think our motives are another series of the Crusades.

Whether or not Bush acts upon inner religious motives, or Christian evangelicals from TV, I clearly see why Muslim radicals are calling this another Crusade. I am not sympathizing with the Muslim terrorists! (so don't contort, you totse bastards. Not you imperfectcircle http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif))

For the fact of separation of church and state, I guess many people interpret it differently, since the US Constitution is incredibly flexible, and depending on your background, may let you view the same institution differently, even though you're reading the same thing as someone different from you.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

*insert post here*



I know I did lump Christian extremists, in with more normal ones, but whether or not you like them, they still are...Christians. For example:

You see a family you absolutely hate, live across the street from where you live. What do you have in common with them anyway? You're both Americans!

^^^Crappy example, but I can't put it any other way, for now at least....

quote:Originally posted by Anger Management:

and I think it would be more beneficial if Bush cut that "God made me do this" bullshit out. That way, Muslim extremists won't think our motives are another series of the Crusades.

I agree. It's quite interesting to see a lot of people celebrate Bush's closeness to God and support his actions when he basically says God told him to kill. Yet when Muslim extremists say the same thing they are booed and called a false religion and terrorists.



quote:Originally posted by Anger Management:

For the fact of separation of church and state, I guess many people interpret it differently,

The big problem is few people have read (or even know about) the many court decisions that expand on the constitution. Most people just know the constitution and often poorly at that. I have ran into more than one christian who has used their literal reading of only a few sentences in the constitution and claimed religion can be part of the government. Completely ignoring all the other rullings about that sentence. (Then again, they often do the same thing to their own bible, so I guess it is to be expected.)

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

*insert post*



*sigh* What can I say about the American population, in general? I know it may not apply to someone who reads this post, but nonetheless, we are becoming more ethnocentric, via religion. When was the last time you saw an American ask for help, beyond his/her faith?

As for the Christian and their interpretation of the Constitution, ehh....

It really transcends all walks of life here in the US. I got to admit I don't know a whole lot about the Constitution either. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) I really have no one to blame for myself, except for one institution: the school system and its ridiculous curriculi.

It's not much of a wonder the youths of America are barely smarter than an educated pebble.

[This message has been edited by Anger Management (edited 10-23-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Anger Management:

I know I did lump Christian extremists, in with more normal ones, but whether or not you like them, they still are...Christians. For example:

You see a family you absolutely hate, live across the street from where you live. What do you have in common with them anyway? You're both Americans!

^^^Crappy example, but I can't put it any other way, for now at least....



Christianity is based off of FAITH. FAITH. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen."

"Many that say Lord, Lord, will not inherit the Kingdom of God." "If they are luke-warm I will spew them out of my mouth." "No man can serve two masters, he will either hate one and love the other, or hate the other and love the one." Something along that lines.

I'm sorry, but many who call themselves Christians and really aren't, will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If you're saved, you're saved, but if you're not, you're not. Again, You LIVE what you REALLY believe. Religions have this things, of trying to understand the Word with their minds. "Because the carnal mind is ENMITY against God: For it is NOT subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

The mind WILL never understand the supernatual things of the spirit, but the spirit does, for it is Christ who gives us revelation of the Word of God, and Christ who's made all things known to those who are the Sons of God.

When you try to interpret the bible with your mind, there comes religion, and division with that. The Sons of God, stand in unity and are not divided amonst themselves.

If you're saved, don't worry about it, but read the WORD, and let GOD give you understanding of it, not religious documents based off carnal understanding, but spiritual revelation of God's inspired holy word, from God himself. Everything you need to know, God will make known unto you, IF you SEEK HIM.

bump

quote:Originally posted by BiggCatt:

My faith is weak...i want to believe...but the rational side just won`t let me....if there is a GOD, and he created all.....where`s the dinosaurs fit into this....I`ve never read the whole Bible,but i know a little, and I`ve never heard mention of them in the book....can someone give me some insight...?

The only thing that is really important to the debate is to keep in mind that man (woman/man) were the the last created things on the 6th day. How is this significant? Those who claim that Christians say God created man first are not correct. In fact if scientists find bones that pre-date humans then the bible is in agreement. I would be more concerned if they found human bones that predate plants and animals.

So far, science is in agreement with what is in the bible on this account.

The bible in chronological order says that the animals of the sea were created on the fifth day and begining with 'above water' plants and then animals and then livestock etc were all created before man. (all of this is found within the first 2 or 3 pages of your bible.)

The fossil records are in agreement with this account.

The rest is up for your own study. However, keep in mind that figuring out how dinosaurs fit into that path that leads to believing in God is nothing but a stumbling block.

You have to accept all of it as truth and that is what keeps most away. You can run around in circles all day long trying to prove or disprove God with scripture but you will get nowhere. Proof of God's existence doesn't lie in the world, in science or history but in the heart of man. That is where you will find Him. This is a very deep and profound truth that would require weeks of study to see but I'll leave it as this.

God bless~

Every creationist knows that dinosaur bones were planted by the devil so that we would believe in the evil scientists.

If sig_intel's directions weren't exact enough for you to find god's existence its right between your fear of death and the comfort you find from having a perfect being watching over you.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

alpha -beginning

omega -end

beta -???????

please inform me beta69



Relativity