I was thinking about the debate on nature vs. nurture, and while I believe that they're both factors in the way we turn out, it just doesn't seem to be an issue, because it doesn't leave much for free will. Like if all our choices are based on the combination of previous events, and our own disposition, then how can there be free will? It just seems to be like everything can be determined.

However this idea, in a disturbing way, does seem to validate the Buddhist concept of Karma. But even this raises questions, like what's the point of enlightenment, if we can't choose if we'll ever get there? And that we'll never break free until we're there, but we have no choice if we'll get there or not.

Well, consider: You're uncomfortable, so you shift position.

It wasn't that you were forced to shift; you did it because it would make you more comfortable. The fact that this could perhaps be pre-determined doesn't invalidate that you willed something.

That's a good point, thanks for responding, It made me think for a while, and I came up with this: Does reacting to a stimuli really merit free will or just does your awareness of the stimuli create the illusion of free will.

quote:Originally posted by Tacit_Attack:

illusion of free will

In very simple terms:

The mind is what the body invented

to make it better at eating and

fucking.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

In very simple terms:

The mind is what the body invented

to make it better at eating and

fucking.

That doesn't make sense. The body cannot do that. The mind controls it all.

The bible says, Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he's older, he'll not depart.

It also speaks of the Prodigal child.

I think the way we are raised, the morals that are placed in our life, the disciplines, etc. Determine alot.

Example:

I know this guy who's dad was in the military, and he's in the army. He's very respectful, he's a gentlemen. He's very self-disciplined. He's 22 and he has a certain time he is to be awake. Which is wonderful, really. I wish it would have been like that with me, and I wouldn't have to be learning it now. He was raised with rules and regulations that he had to abide by. So he knows how to submit to authority.

Me, on the other hand. I was raised with the typical, "I wish you wouldn't but IF you do....Get some birthcontrol, or drink at home, or smoke pot outside." So, I did what my parents wished I wouldn't do. Why? Because there wasn't a firm foundation, a firm ground of discipline. There was a choice. There was a compromise, where there shouldn't have been. I'm not knocking my parents, I'm saying, they should have beat my rear end and not given into my will, but laid down the rules, and had disciplines set up for a broken rule, because they had my best interest in mind, but should have had their foots planted in concrete. Personally, I don't like compromise. I can't stand it when people compromise their moral standards or beliefs for other peoples approval or satisfaction.

Free will:

Even with rules, as Paul said, you still have a choice. The 'law' isn't sinful, but it's because the law that we can identify sin. Had there not been a law, there would be no sin.

Human nature:

Human nature is to sin. To be selfish, and to seek pleasure of fleshly desires. Let's face it, We are a selfish people. We want 'us' to become more, and be filled, and could care less about what happens to other people. We like things our way, and argue when authority is in place. If I had a child, and I told him/her to do something, and they questioned my authority with, "Why?" I'd beat their rear end. I think reasoning is humanity's downfall. We want to be the authority, instead of submitting to the authority. Why? Because we rely on ourselves to do things our way, and do it the way that benefits or pleases self, not what is best for all. We consider ourselves above all, instead of all above ourselves. God's ways are better than our own. I think the hardest thing for a babe in Christ to do, is completely rely and trust in God, to stand on the promises and know that God isn't a liar, because they think their way would be sufficient. They think they know what they're doing, so they rely on self, instead of God. God has everyone's best interest in mind, but rebellion, causes things to happen that wouldn't have happened had we done what we knew to do, and avoid the appearance of resistance against God.

Anyways, I hope ya understand what I'm saying. I think both, nature and nurture and important factors, but so is, but there's only one way of freedom. To die daily to yourself, and to love, to not be emotionally attached. To do things out of the goodness of your heart/spirit, where Christ lives, rather than doing something with an alternative motive. To be pure of heart, and to consider others above self. It's hard. My prayer is, "God, let me become less, and you become more, in Jesus name, Amen (so be it)."

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 10-25-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Me, on the other hand. I was raised with the typical, "I wish you wouldn't but IF you do....Get some birthcontrol, or drink at home, or smoke pot outside." So, I did what my parents wished I wouldn't do. Why? Because there wasn't a firm foundation, a firm ground of discipline. There was a choice. There was a compromise, where there shouldn't have been. I'm not knocking my parents, I'm saying, they should have beat my rear end and not given into my will, but laid down the rules, and had disciplines set up for a broken rule, because they had my best interest in mind, but should have had their foots planted in concrete. Personally, I don't like compromise. I can't stand it when people compromise their moral standards or beliefs for other peoples approval or satisfaction.

Free will:

Even with rules, as Paul said, you still have a choice. The 'law' isn't sinful, but it's because the law that we can identify sin. Had there not been a law, there would be no sin.

I'm saving this for the next time that someone brings up the "loving parent" analogy.

quote:Originally posted by Tacit_Attack:

That's a good point, thanks for responding, It made me think for a while, and I came up with this: Does reacting to a stimuli really merit free will or just does your awareness of the stimuli create the illusion of free will.

I'm not really sure... I made a thread on it in humanities a while back.

The arguement of nature vs. nurture does not diminish free will, but rather influences it. The real arguement is, which is the stronger influence. Some say nature, some say nurture, I say both, but tend to lean more towards nurture simply because experience is the most efficient and memorable way to acquire and use knowledge. Your mind is shaped by the experiences you have and the mindset that percieves them. Your will is the consequence of perception. If we percieve something as being bad, then we condemn it. If we see something as being good, we adhere to it. Our will conforms to that which we desire, whether it be sex, world peace, a new job, or friendship, just as it is set against that which we find undesirable. Nature vs. nurture is not about control or loss of control of ones will...it is about the influence of our will.

A child born into a broken home may grow up to become a great giver of the kind of love he never saw, or an abusive father just like his own. Is it nature or nurture? You can't know one way or the other until you learn how he lived and how he percieved it. If he learned to be a victim, he may learn to be a victimizer, just as he may learn to stand against those who would turn another into a victim. What stands between these fates, is his will. Now, if he learned sympathy while growing up, he may be more inclined to become a man of good morals who would never dream of causing the pain and anguish he felt as a child. If he learns apathy, he will most likely care more about his new xbox game, than he would about the kid down the street who can't even afford connect-the-dots.

The reason this arguement is so hard to pin down, is because people experience, learn, and assimilate so much, that by the time they're twenty they can't completely tell you exactly how or why they believe the things that they do. Sure, they can tell you the major reasons and experiences that have INFLUENCED their lives, but it's the little things that really make the difference. Being raped can cause a major influence on ones life, but that dirty joke you told your friend in gym class can cause a subtle influence as well. Rape, you can not control, but a vulgar mind is a fault all your own. People experience many things, on many levels. You can pin point influences left and right, but for every influence you can think of, there are several more that you can't. The reason behind this, is simple perception. We percieve and assimilate some things more than others, but everything is a factor. If you can't see a certain factor it does not diminish that factors' potential for influence.

To sum it all up; We are creatures bound by our will. The problem is that our will is shaped over many years, from many experiences, under many circumstances. Then factor in the several billion influences one encounters during those years, and you can appreciate how difficult it is to truly stand on one side of this fence of nature vs. nurture.

quote:Originally posted by Tacit_Attack:

That's a good point, thanks for responding, It made me think for a while, and I came up with this: Does reacting to a stimuli really merit free will or just does your awareness of the stimuli create the illusion of free will.

When you are sitting in an uncomfortable position, you react involuntarily. Your will has nothing to with comfort. That's body, not mind.

Now, if your friend was passed out drunk on the front lawn you could either help him find his bed, or leave him there and let him deal with it. This is a question of will. Your friends' problem is the stimulus rather than simple bodily comfort.

quote:Originally posted by HampTheToker:

When you are sitting in an uncomfortable position, you react involuntarily. Your will has nothing to with comfort. That's body, not mind.

That makes no sense. I can certainly choose to stay uncomfortable. Do you know what an involuntary reaction is? Go touch a hot stove. When you jerk back, that's involuntary. When you shift position because you're uncomfortable, it is a voluntary action. I just scratched an itch. I wasn't compelled to do that, I merely wanted to.

Does this argument have any relevance? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

quote:Originally posted by HampTheToker:

Now, if your friend was passed out drunk on the front lawn you could either help him find his bed, or leave him there and let him deal with it. This is a question of will. Your friends' problem is the stimulus rather than simple bodily comfort.

Well isn't your choice of whether to help him or not based on pass experience, whether you were taught to help people in need, or taught to let people deal with their own problems. Or maybe your natural disposition leans toward an antisocial personality, and you tend to be self centered, or a variety of other factors. The stimulis being the drunk friend, now you have no choice in making the choice you are going to make in response to that stimulis. Even if, say you want to go against your natural disposition/past experiences to prove that you have free will, then that will be the determining factor of your choice. It just seems that everything is predestined, and I'm not a fan of that. Like were locked in a straight path, and there's no way out.

All things predestined are in God's hands and we cannot understand or identify them.

But, in your world, in your mind, nothing is written and you ARE free to think and do as you will. There are no questions you can't ask, just as there are no answers that you can't find. Questions, answers, actions. Seek, find, do.

What you do, and how you do it, are all in your hands. Nature or nurture, it doesn't matter. There are no limits on your will. All the doors are open to he that will look. Everything we do, we are responsible for. You can't blame nature and you can't blame nurture for a bad decision. If the power is in your hands the responsibility is also your own.

quote:Originally posted by HampTheToker:

All things predestined are in God's hands and we cannot understand or identify them.

But, in your world, in your mind, nothing is written and you ARE free to think and do as you will. There are no questions you can't ask, just as there are no answers that you can't find. Questions, answers, actions. Seek, find, do.

What you do, and how you do it, are all in your hands. Nature or nurture, it doesn't matter. There are no limits on your will. All the doors are open to he that will look. Everything we do, we are responsible for. You can't blame nature and you can't blame nurture for a bad decision. If the power is in your hands the responsibility is also your own.

But where do thoughts come from? Thoughts are the product of experience and learning. Our natural disposition is how we interpret/respond to these experiences. For instance: Seeking god/truth comes from a natural drive to do so. It's an inborn disposition. If the drive to seek God/truth is instilled by a person/event then that person is persuaded by experience to do so. Lets say an event instilled a spiritual drive in one person, but not another. Is it that's persons free will that chose him not to be inspired into spiritual pursuits. I don't beleive so. The person has no choice on how he or she would naturally respond to any given event. Lets say a person is tied down in a darkened room from the time they were born, and given food intravenously to sustain them. That person has no choices what so ever, and any thoughts that come into their head are brought on by natural chemical processes. If this person became untied, and brought into the world, he would have no experience, and how this person responds to anything would be obviously of no will of his own. And after a while from gaining experience, he'd differently respond to certain things, but only based upon his previous experiences combined with natural disposition, things which he has no choice over.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Well, consider: You're uncomfortable, so you shift position.

It wasn't that you were forced to shift; you did it because it would make you more comfortable. The fact that this could perhaps be pre-determined doesn't invalidate that you willed something.

Heh, I find you can make most people feel as uncomfortable as they like and they still won't shift position http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif).

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Human nature is to sin. To be selfish, and to seek pleasure of fleshly desires. Let's face it, We are a selfish people. We want 'us' to become more, and be filled, and could care less about what happens to other people. We like things our way, and argue when authority is in place.

Who designed that nature?

Not that I see human nature

like you do. I see alot of

"good" in humans, including

myself.

From within us comes

empathy and wisdom.

You think only christians

care about other people?

Even animals display complex

altruistic behavior.

Pleasure is the body's way

of reinforcing productive

behavior. It is a simple

motivator that sometimes

conflicts with modern life.

And I think challenging

authority is one of the

most important things we

can do as people.

If there were more people

like you, we would still

be in the dark ages, and

they would be killing people

for saying these things.