Jesus was the only way god could

get around god's rules. God loves

us and wants us all to go to heaven,

but god hates us and wants us to

burn in hell - that is why god sent

his son to sacrifice, to make god

happy, so god would let us into

heaven.

It's not god's fault -

it's not like he made the rules.

That is why you should

love god, but fear god; god saved

us from a horrible fate at the

hands of god.

Fo' trill.

preeze.

Thanks for clearing that up, I'm moving to the Bible Belt.

Let me expand on this a little.

It seems christians believe in

a reality higher than their god.

That god has constraints.

Like the whole sin thing:

God has no choice but to get

upset when people do exactly what

he knew they would do anyhow.

He made the rules. The fact that

all men are "sinners" shows that

it is in our nature to disobey.

God made our nature.

It was god's choice to arbitrarily

make some things "good" or "bad".

If god is omniscient, then he knows

why we do what we do.

People are not perfect at making

choices. That is not our fault.

It is also in our nature to at times

to be rebellious, to fuck, to lie,

steal, kill and howl at the moon.

That's how we were made...

God decided to give us our flawed

reasoning ability, lack of relevant

information, emotions and instincts

that make us want to do "bad things" -

then he punishes us for making wrong

decisions.

What makes people do or believe

different things? The mechanics

of their logic, the available

information, their inherited

predispositions, the current

chemical state of their brain?

On top of that, god has no choice

in all this, because "sin" is

completely beyond his control?

Of course I don't believe any of this.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Let me expand on this a little.

It seems christians believe in

a reality higher than their god.

That god has constraints.

Like the whole sin thing:

God has no choice but to get

upset when people do exactly what

he knew they would do anyhow.

He made the rules. The fact that

all men are "sinners" shows that

it is in our nature to disobey.

God made our nature.

It was god's choice to arbitrarily

make some things "good" or "bad".

If god is omniscient, then he knows

why we do what we do.

People are not perfect at making

choices. That is not our fault.

It is also in our nature to at times

to be rebellious, to fuck, to lie,

steal, kill and howl at the moon.

That's how we were made...

God decided to give us our flawed

reasoning ability, lack of relevant

information, emotions and instincts

that make us want to do "bad things" -

then he punishes us for making wrong

decisions.

What makes people do or believe

different things? The mechanics

of their logic, the available

information, their inherited

predispositions, the current

chemical state of their brain?

On top of that, god has no choice

in all this, because "sin" is

completely beyond his control?

Of course I don't believe any of this.



God gives us over to the desires of our heart. Every choice has a consequence. He gave us free will, the ability to make decisions. Just as a parent does their child, and when they cross the line, they're punished. Would you let your child spit in your face? They apologize, you forgive them, but for how long? When they do it over and over, and keep apologizing, will you continue to show them mercy, or finally whoop that rear end?

They apologize, you forgive them, but for how long?



In the bible it says, in not such few words, that a person is sinless if he trusts in Jesus being their saviour but if not they will perish

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

They apologize, you forgive them, but for how long?



In the bible it says, in not such few words, that a person is sinless if he trusts in Jesus being their saviour but if not they will perish

That's right. Faith is accounted for as righteousness, but faith without works is dead. The bible also says, not in these words, that you're a fool if you know not to do something and still do it.

Judgement comes in too. I may be without sin, being that I am in Christ, but sin is still in my body. I'm sinless before God, but sin is in me. Paul said this, I hope you can understand it too.

When God convicted you of something, and you don't change it, that's on you. A judgement is formed.

Example. God tells me to stop smoking cigarettes, and I continue to smoke cigarettes, I die. Had I listened to God, I wouldn't have died in the way I died, but I would have died, just not from Cigarette smoking. Ya understandin' me?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Faith is accounted for as righteousness, but faith without works is dead.



Please explain yourself...

as i gather, how do you apply faith to your works other than by following the commandments?

You LIVE what you really believe.

Way to go!

You guys totally missed the point.

There is a basic human nature,

regardless of religion, that

makes people tend to act - like

people.

And you believe god created that

nature, and at the same time

punishes his creations for their

imperfection, according to his

standards?

Even what is "good" or "bad",

he decided.

When there was just god, there

was no sin. Then he made some

creatures, and decided he liked

some things and not other things,

that he made them want to do.

It's all bullshit. I can't see

how you make it work in your head.

God doesn't oppose us utilizing our senses - it's living exclusively for them that fucks him off.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

God doesn't oppose us utilizing our senses - it's living exclusively for them that fucks him off.

Explain

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

It's all bullshit. I can't see

how you make it work in your head.

I feel the same way. http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif) I understand what they're saying, I just don't understand how they believe what they're saying. It's got to take a conscious effort to fit it all together - to jam in the mismatched pieces.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

It's got to take a conscious effort to fit it all together - to jam in the mismatched pieces.

"He presented himself with propositions -- 'the Party says the earth is flat', 'the party says that ice is heavier than water' -- and trained himself in not seeing or not understanding the arguments that contradicted them.

It was not easy. It needed great powers of reasoning and improvisation. The arithmetical problems raised, for instance, by such a statement as 'two and two make five' were beyond his intellectual grasp.

It needed also a sort of athleticism of mind, an ability at one moment to make the most delicate use of logic and at the next to be unconscious of the crudest logical errors. Stupidity was as necessary as intelligence, and as difficult to attain."

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

Explain

Eating isn't a sin if you eat only to heal, purify, and cleanse your body. It is a sin when you eat because you love eating.

Sex isn't a sin if it becomes a conduit to higher planes of existence - "sexual healing," procreation, and the like. It is a sin if you become addicted to it.

The reason these things are sins is because that over which you obsess becomes the ruling principle of your life - effectively, your god.

The Judeo-Christian God doesn't like it when things like food and sex, which can potentially cripple your physical and mental health, is more important to a man than the principle that created not only Food (capitalized to specify a particular thing as principle), but also Appetite, Digestion, and Growth.

I hear 'dat nigga, mad propz.

Peace

The way I see it, I'll spend my whole life doing what I want, fucking what I want, saying what I want to say, and killing if it suits me fine. And then, just before I die, I'll accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

BAM. Free ticket to heaven.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

The Judeo-Christian God doesn't like it when things like food and sex, which can potentially cripple your physical and mental health, is more important to a man than the principle that created...

It is human nature to desire sex,

good food and pleasure of all kinds.

Was it not your god that created

that nature?

First of all, to add another scratch on the innumerable tally of times I've said this, I am not a Christian. Don't talk about 'my god'; that's why I made the distinction of the Judeo-Christian God.

Second of all, yea, if you believe in Christianity, the Christian God designed food and sex to be pleasurable; if it was uncomfortable, we'd be less willing to do it. Animals exhibit the same kind of psychology.

However, it's one thing to take pleasure in your senses, and it's another thing entirely to become addicted to them - by mere merit of the behavioral manipulations and abnormal pathologies addiction has been historically known to incite.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

First of all, to add another scratch on the innumerable tally of times I've said this, I am not a Christian. Don't talk about 'my god'; that's why I made the distinction of the Judeo-Christian God.

Second of all, yea, if you believe in Christianity, the Christian God designed food and sex to be pleasurable; if it was uncomfortable, we'd be less willing to do it. Animals exhibit the same kind of psychology.

However, it's one thing to take pleasure in your senses, and it's another thing entirely to become addicted to them - by mere merit of the behavioral manipulations and abnormal pathologies addiction has been historically known to incite.

Surely all the time spent in Church saying "all this stuff you made for us is really great, thanks LORD, we're not going to sin because you respect you so much for doing all this, isn't the world wonderful, amen", would be better spent eating a lot and having sex (Ok, I'm being silly, so read: generally enjoying life and getting the most out of it) to prove how much you appreciate the world? Or is this not what goes on in church? The little religion I've directly exposed myself to (willingly or otherwise) I've mostly forgotten because it was usually pretty content-free and I need my memory for actual stuff.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Let me expand on this a little.

Of course I don't believe any of this.

You forgot that we were given free-will. That pretty much obliterates everything right there.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

You forgot that we were given free-will. That pretty much obliterates everything right there.

Wrong. Has nothing to do with it.

No it doesn't. Did you even read

what I wrote? Read it again.

People make wrong choices all

the time. Therefore, what we

use to make choices is flawed.



Why do people behave or believe

variably as individuals?

People make different choices

because they have different

information sets available,

conditioned responses,

inherited tendencies,

emotional influences,

subconcious desires,

the lunar cycle, etc.

Do you think you are somehow

better because your religious

conditioning is stronger than

your faculty for critical analysis

or your natural instincts?

Free-will would be irrelevant

if it were real.

Bitch.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

I am not a Christian.

My bad. You're something close

though, right?

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

God designed food and sex to be

pleasurable... Animals exhibit the

same kind of psychology.

Good point.

Qoute - Viraljimmy

Jesus was the only way god could

get around god's rules. God loves

us and wants us all to go to heaven,

but god hates us and wants us to

burn in hell - that is why god sent

his son to sacrifice, to make god

happy, so god would let us into

heaven.

It's not god's fault -

it's not like he made the rules.

That is why you should

love god, but fear god; god saved

us from a horrible fate at the

hands of god.



I think what your trying to say is that, really, its not simple at all, which it is'nt...?

sp0rkius:

I agree that life's physical pleasures should be enjoyed. However, if we're talking about the physical pleasures being sinful, I'm merely pointing out that it is abusing the sacred nature of these senses by over-indulging in them that is considered a sin - by pretty much every religion out there (save modern Satanism), including Christianity.

Viraljimmy:

My bad. You're something close

though, right?

I've studied Christianity extensively - an easy task when both your parents are born again Christians - but I have spent no less attention towards other religions of the world, past and present. I find myself playing the Devil's (or God's?) advocate quite frequently, especially here on Totse, which leads to people perceiving me as a Christian.

Common mistake, though. No worries. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)