Many say that by faith, and faith alone we are saved. That if you have faith, that you can do anything, and you will enter into the kingdom of God. Mobsters who make a living extorting, stealing, drugging, beating, prostituting and murdering each believe that they will be saved becasue they were baptised and they go to church as a catholic. Will they be saved? I do not believe so. I think that only by both having faith in Christ and by being a good person and doing good works can one be saved.

quote:Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(New Testament | Matthew 7:21)

quote:Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

(New Testament | James 2:17)

Show me where you can find a verse that says you can be saved and lead a sinful life.

I'm a methodist and we believe good works are part of salvation. But it's my own personal belief that you don't need to be saved to get into heaven.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

The same verses in James caused Martin Luther so much trouble that he often ripped those pages out of any new Bibles that came his way.

Regardless, the traditional interpretation is that because Paul was preaching to various Gentile groups, he offered them a stripped-down guide to salvation. As James was writing to wayward Jews, they were already aware of the associated dogma, and he was basically telling them to clean up their act.

If I was a Christian I would be Protestant, the good works are just the icing on the cake the only way to salvation would be belief in Jesus Christ as your savior.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

Many say that by faith, and faith alone we are saved. That if you have faith, that you can do anything, and you will enter into the kingdom of God. Mobsters who make a living extorting, stealing, drugging, beating, prostituting and murdering each believe that they will be saved becasue they were baptised and they go to church as a catholic. Will they be saved? I do not believe so. I think that only by both having faith in Christ and by being a good person and doing good works can one be saved.

Show me where you can find a verse that says you can be saved and lead a sinful life.

Very good. Read Romans 8: See the problem with the body of Christ isn't that they have sin IN their mortal bodies, but that they're not doing ANYTHING (works) to become less, and God more.

Now, no one is without sin. If a man says he is without sin he is a liar. I may not have sex, drink, smoke pot, etc. HOWEVER, I do have pride, Pride comes before a great fall, and I know it has to be dealt with. I also know GOD will convict me of it, and allow me to go through things, so I can LEARN, and GROW, and CHANGE. However, if a man be in Christ he isn't a sinner, because there is no sin in Christ.

"Faith without works is dead." Why? Because you LIVE what you REALLY believe.

"Not everyone who says unto me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven."

Well, why? You have preachers who are in the right calling God's placed on their life, Following the right plan, BUT, they don't have the right persuit. I mean, that their MOTIVE isn't about God, it's about money, or ego. What did Jesus say about this? "You can't serve God and money".

Now, if many say by faith alone are you saved, then don't listen to them, because it's BY GRACE you are saved THROUGH FAITH.

If I say I believe in Christ, then I'm going to TRY my BEST to follow him, and let HIM become more in MY life, as I DECREASE. To be as Paul, and die every day.

Try this on for fit. I say, "I believe Jesus was wounded for my transgressions, bruised for my iniquities, and by his stripes we WERE (past tense) healed, but I'm walking around with a deadly disease, about to die, and I'm saying, "If it's the GOOD LORD'S will"...



See, you life what you REALLY believe. No where in the bible does it say God's will is for his people to suffer of sicknesses, brought on by sin.

I dunno, I'm just one of those people that believe a person should back their claims up no matter what they are. I really dont have any respect for a person who sins and sins again but say that because they are a Christian they'll be alright in the end.

Anybody can say they are a race car driver, but how many people are actually in NASCAR?



[This message has been edited by TheLaUghiNgHeretic (edited 10-30-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

If I was a Christian I would be Protestant, the good works are just the icing on the cake the only way to salvation would be belief in Jesus Christ as your savior.

What good is belief if you don't follow the example set forth by Jesus?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

What good is belief if you don't follow the example set forth by Jesus?

Well I know you to be a Catholic apologetic so you'd be hell bent on that, and I really don't want to argue about a belief that would be theoretical in nature (I'm not a protestant).

*shrugs*

Don't say something then refuse to expand upon it. I'd just like to know how having just faith makes more sense than having faith AND living a good life. Is that asking too much?

It doesn't make more sense, which is why I included the "it's the icing on the cake" part. Having faith and living a good life is better than just having faith, all I said is faith is what gets you into Heaven.

I don't believe a perfect creator would have an ego

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

It doesn't make more sense, which is why I included the "it's the icing on the cake" part. Having faith and living a good life is better than just having faith, all I said is faith is what gets you into Heaven.

So the gangsters that someone alluded to would get into heaven? How does this make any sense?

This is like those murderers who repent on their death bed. It would make no sense if you can get to heaven while living a sin filled life. It literally makes ZERO sense.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

So the gangsters that someone alluded to would get into heaven? How does this make any sense?

This is like those murderers who repent on their death bed. It would make no sense if you can get to heaven while living a sin filled life. It literally makes ZERO sense.

Yea it does. The thing is, God knows a man's heart. If your heart isn't for God, you can give all the lip service you want, and it not mean anything. If their heart is sincere in desiring God, God will fill them. Even if the law's condemned them, because Jesus set the captive free.

FYI, God isn't going to make sense to your carnal mind. Your mind will never understand God. This is pretty clear in the bible, when the Pharisees said, "How can a man enter the womb a second time?" They tried to understand God with their minds, and they just couldn't.

quote:Originally posted by TheLaUghiNgHeretic:

I dunno, I'm just one of those people that believe a person should back their claims up no matter what they are. I really dont have any respect for a person who sins and sins again but say that because they are a Christian they'll be alright in the end.

Lou -

I agree, but the bible also leaves the sinner open to repentance no matter the circumstances. From what i gather, if you spend your energy on the faith that you have, your works will reflect your your true nature....





[This message has been edited by Lou Reed (edited 10-30-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Yea it does. The thing is, God knows a man's heart. If your heart isn't for God, you can give all the lip service you want, and it not mean anything. If their heart is sincere in desiring God, God will fill them. Even if the law's condemned them, because Jesus set the captive free.

FYI, God isn't going to make sense to your carnal mind. Your mind will never understand God. This is pretty clear in the bible, when the Pharisees said, "How can a man enter the womb a second time?" They tried to understand God with their minds, and they just couldn't.

I'm not talking about lip service. I'm talking about men who murder innocent people, yet still have faith in God. You're telling me that God will still let him enter into heaven?

This is why protestants are retarded... This is also where Luther fucked up, IMO. Luther said that if you're faithful then good works will follow. History and modern times tells us this isn't the case. You could look at a history book and find 50 examples of people who truely believed in God, yet you wouldn't know that by their actions. You're telling me that you think these murderers and lowlifes will go to heaven?

Also, how do you understand God? I'm pretty sure you can't do it with any other organ than your brain. God wouldn't have given us the ability to think unless he wanted us to use it, no?

Hebrews 11:1, because the faith is so well based with expectations, it moves one to action.

That, along with James 2:17 supports faith+works rather than just faith. It shows that if one has faith, then they must do good works.

Here is James 2:14-26

Tell me what in here suggests that faith alone guarantees passage into heaven.

"14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

Salvation and inheritence of the kingdom of God is received through a combination of both faith and works.

Jesus said you must be born again. What does that mean other then you must be saved?

How can you have faith and continue to live opposed to God's will and Laws? It's like saying "my dad gave me a curfew, I know he exists and I know I can be punished but, I'm going to go home late anyway."

Just like God will do to those who continue to live opposed to Him, the person in that previous statement will also be kicked out of his fathers house.

If your own son was disobediant to you and not listen to your rules and standards you will be left with no other course then to kick him out of the house until he does. Although you can have patience with him it will soon wear thin but, as soon as he turns to you and says, father I have rebelled against you and for that I am sorry, I hope to live under your rules - I know you will forgive him with an embrace and a warm welcome into your home.

This is about the kingdom of God and our disobediance to God. It is about us saying we are sorry and we want to live in His glorious house once again.

I pray you see it,

God bless

JAMES VS PAUL.

The learned Jew and the fiery convert come head to head!

TWO MEN ENTER THE RING

ONLY ONE WILL COME OUT



Buy your tickets today!

James and Paul didn't preach contrary one to another.

QUOTE Originally posted by HomerJay603:

Many say that by faith, and faith alone we are saved. That if you have faith, that you can do anything, and you will enter into the kingdom of God.

The teaching of Original Sin is basically, 'because Adam was the literal, first man and he sinned, his unrighteousness got passed on to all his decendants. So, even if one were to live a totally sin-free life, that person would still be sinful, because the flesh has been "exposed to the virus of sin"....

With that "illustration" in mind, consider:

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



Mobsters who make a living extorting, stealing, drugging, beating, prostituting and murdering each believe that they will be saved becasue they were baptised and they go to church as a catholic. Will they be saved? I do not believe so. I think that only by both having faith in Christ and by being a good person and doing good works can one be saved.

Very good post/question.

First, let me start with:

If a person is a Christian, that person by definition, believes that Jesus was/is the Christ and is God. And that the work of the Christ was taking on Himself, the sin of the world...

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

with those verses in mind, look at Hebrews 10:10 (although there was a different passage that i was thinking of, but cant find at the moment):

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Now, in reguard to works being necessary for Salvation, in effect, this belief is downplaying (if not totally denying) the Divinity of the Christ by saying that God is not powerful enough or insightful enough to Save us so we must help Him out alittle.

Just a sidelight, in Romans 3:1, Paul asked a question and then answers it in Romans 4:13-16 (actually, he answers it in chapter 3 for the application of the Jews, but he explains the New Covenent in reguards to the Old Covenant in 4:13-16):

quote:Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

**********

quote:Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(New Testament | Matthew 7:21)

*************

Although you are right here, read the rest of the chapter.. basically, it is saying that if the works are just "lip-service" without, FIRST, the belief/foundation of the Truth, then the 'works' are the reason for the 'works'... the works should be a result of Faith, not a show of Faith.

***********

quote:Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

(New Testament | James 2:17)

***********

Faith is "invisible".. people cannot see it, but if the Faith produces works, it can be "seen". I think what James is saying here, is, if the Faith is not producing works, then there truely is no Faith present.

Faith is given to us, by God, in varying amounts (sorry this is paraphrased, i can't recall book/chapter/verse...maybe someone else here can). If we hide that Faith.. if we dont allow it to show itself, that Faith becomes dead. Jesus explained it by parables of fig trees and grapevines that do not produce fruit, the gardener prunes them away so that other branches can become more "fruitful" sothat new branches can grow/sprout.

The book of Romans is quite thorough about your question (and many others.. including the Justice of God, eternally condemming the unsaved after only a 70 year or so life).

One last thought on your question of works + Faith:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Show me where you can find a verse that says you can be saved and lead a sinful life.

This is NOT to condone the continuation of leading a sinful life, i'm just showing you what you asked for. I opened this response with Romans 5:15-19... Now, let's close with the continuation in God's Word (Romans 5:20- Romans 6:1-3) and then onto Romans 7:15-21:

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.





God Bless.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God : Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Eph 2:8-9

case closed as far as i'm concerned.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Now, if many say by faith alone are you saved, then don't listen to them, because it's BY GRACE you are saved THROUGH FAITH.

Good eye, Shellz!!!

BTW, it's enjoyable to see your growth in Christ. May God continue to bless you and strengthen you.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

This is like those murderers who repent on their death bed. It would make no sense if you can get to heaven while living a sin filled life. It literally makes ZERO sense.

We all live a sin-filled life... the purpose of the Law is to show us this. When we see this, then we are able to know that we need a Savior. If someone repents on their death-bed, this would be the same as Jesus parable of the workers that start at different times of day, and still recieve the same pay... and thinking that "It literally makes ZERO sense." is the same as the grumbling workers that worked the whole day (grumbling because they didnt get more than the end-of-day workers)... Jesus said that the landowner told them that the pay for all of them was very generous... inother words, it is more than what is deserved.--The wages of sin is death and Grace is

<< beyond/more than/exceedingly >> generous.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God : Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Eph 2:8-9

case closed as far as i'm concerned.

I point you to the passage from James I posted earlier:

"14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

If that doesn't convince you, then I don't know what will.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

quote:We all live a sin-filled life... the purpose of the Law is to show us this. When we see this, then we are able to know that we need a Savior. If someone repents on their death-bed, this would be the same as Jesus parable of the workers that start at different times of day, and still recieve the same pay... and thinking that "It literally makes ZERO sense." is the same as the grumbling workers that worked the whole day (grumbling because they didnt get more than the end-of-day workers)... Jesus said that the landowner told them that the pay for all of them was very generous... inother words, it is more than what is deserved.--The wages of sin is death and Grace is

<< beyond/more than/exceedingly >> generous.

You need to speak more clearer, because it seems like you're talking about three different things here.

QUOTE Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I'm not talking about lip service. I'm talking about men who murder innocent people, yet still have faith in God. You're telling me that God will still let him enter into heaven?

Yes.

What is the difference between murder and any other sin?

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

This is why protestants are retarded... This is also where Luther fucked up, IMO. Luther said that if you're faithful then good works will follow. History and modern times tells us this isn't the case. You could look at a history book and find 50 examples of people who truely believed in God, yet you wouldn't know that by their actions.

This is not "where Luther fucked up", it is where sinful man does.

Luther (if he actually said that.. i'm not sure at this moment, and too lazy to look it up for sure) got it from Scripture (or rather, it comes from Scripture..as theBishop pointed out):

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God : Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Eph 2:8-9

Using mobsters is a bad example.. During their indoctrination into the Mob, they are given impunity in a ceremony conducted by a high priest. The ritual involves the novice taking a oath before drawing blood from his trigger finger and smearing it on a virgin mary idol...

This means the only way a gangster goes to Hell is if they break the Mob Code and turn against their Godfather...

napoleon_complex, in a nutshell, faith is for one's self, given by God. <Works of Faith> are the outword expression of faith, so that others might see (kinda like 'being the best bible that some people might see'). But works that are done with the intentions of the person, to show "how righteous i am" are not the samething as <works of faith>.



~~~~~~~~~~

as far as being clearer, i'm trying. And in away, i was talking about several things; all which matter to the subject. How can you explain faith, works, and Grace without knowledge of Sin? And how can you explain Sin, without mentioning the Law? And how can you explain the Law, without the foundation of the need and purpose of the Law?

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Using mobsters is a bad example.. During their indoctrination into the Mob, they are given impunity in a ceremony conducted by a high priest. The ritual involves the novice taking a oath before drawing blood from his trigger finger and smearing it on a virgin mary idol...

This means the only way a gangster goes to Hell is if they break the Mob Code and turn against their Godfather...



Whether your story is true or not, i dont know. But if it is true, then the use of mobsters as an example is even better.

You see, this would be putting faith in the religion and the works, and not works coming about by Faith in the Grace of God.

Also, this might mean that the deathbed repentance is not sincere, but in the example it is sincere.

At the end of Rev. it says that every man will recieve his just reward.....

which leads me to believe that death is the wage of sin and grace/heaven the reward of faith/goodness, like xtreem5150ahm mentioned.



But one thing still gets me:

the works of faith cannot be those of sin, can they? And through false interpretation can sinners be redeemed in the truth (through faith?!?!). Can the faith required by the Lord be defined or is it simply a case of "the moment" and now?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Whether your story is true or not, i dont know. But if it is true, then the use of mobsters as an example is even better.

You see, this would be putting faith in the religion and the works, and not works coming about by Faith in the Grace of God.

Also, this might mean that the deathbed repentance is not sincere, but in the example it is sincere.

It was the in testimony of Tommaso Buscetta which lead the maxi-trials of the late 80's...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommaso_Buscetta

I see your point here. I was referring to the original analogy that Mobsters may have escaped hell by going to church... They'd only escape if they upheld code of silence...

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

But one thing still gets me:

the works of faith cannot be those of sin, can they? And through false interpretation can sinners be redeemed in the truth (through faith?!?!). Can the faith required by the Lord be defined or is it simply a case of "the moment" and now?

I'm not sure if i understand your questions, but if i do, then the answer is:

the works of faith cannot be those of sin, can they? no (actually, this one i think i understood you)



And through false interpretation can sinners be redeemed in the truth (through faith?!?!).

Doubtful...

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Also because it would be a false faith, if it were through false interpretation.

The reason i say, "doubtful, instead of "no", is that i dont know the ways that God leads people to Himself. Two poor examples of this would be C.S.Lewis and the guy that wrote Ben Hur.. Lew Wallace, i think. God lead them through false understanding (faith).

Can the faith required by the Lord be defined or is it simply a case of "the moment" and now?

This is the question of yours, that i least understand where you are going with (or coming from). And judging from the amount of writing about faith, yours is a big question.

Nave's Topical Bible, Easton's Bible Dictionary, Faussete's Bible Dictionary, ISBE (which i'm including the entry in this post), and R.A.Torrey's New Topical Textbook (among others) either extensively define it, or note all the passages in the Bible about faith.

I think the Bible defines 'faith' in either

1st Peter or 2nd Corinthians (although i cant remember for sure). At anyrate, "trust" and "fidelity" seem to be the best one word definitions and it seems that faith is both 'active' and 'passive'.

I'm going to cheat here though, and give the International Standard Bible Encycolpedia listing... note, the other languages are not going to show correctly in TOTSE:

quote:Faith

fāth:

1. Etymology

2. Meaning: A Divergency

3. Faith in the Sense of Creed

4. A Leading Passage Explained

5. Remarks

6. Conclusion

In the Old Testament (the King James Version) the word occurs only twice: Deu_32:20 (אמוּן, 'ēmūn); Hab_2:4 (אמוּנה, 'ĕmūnāh). In the latter the Revised Version (British and American) places in the margin the alternative rendering, “faithfulness.” In the New Testament it is of very frequent occurrence, always representing πιστις, pistis, with one exception in the King James Version (not the Revised Version (British and American)), Heb_10:23, where it represents ἐλπίς, elpís, “hope.”

1. Etymology

The history of the English word is rather interesting than important; use and contexts, alike for it and its Hebrew and Greek parallels, are the surest guides to meaning. But we may note that it occurs in the form “feyth,” in Havelok the Dane (13th century); that it is akin to fides and this again to the Sanskrit root bhidh, “to unite,” “to bind.” It is worth while to recall this primeval suggestion of the spiritual work of faith, as that which, on man's side, unites him to God for salvation.

2. Meaning: A Divergency

Studying the word “faith” in the light of use and contexts, we find a bifurcation of significance in the Bible. We may distinguish the two senses as the passive and the active; on the one side, “fidelity,” “trustworthiness”; and “faith,” “trust,” on the other. In Gal_5:22, e.g. context makes it clear that “fidelity” is in view, as a quality congruous with the associated graces. (the Revised Version (British and American) accordingly renders pistis there by “faithfulness.”) Again, Rom_3:3 the King James Version, “the faith of God,” by the nature of the case, means His fidelity to promise. But in the overwhelming majority of cases, “faith,” as rendering pistis, means “reliance,” “trust.” To illustrate would be to quote many scores of passages. It may be enough here to call attention to the recorded use of the word by our Lord. Of about twenty passages in the Gospels where pistis occurs as coming from His lips, only one (Mat_23:23) presents it in the apparent sense of “fidelity.” All the others conspicuously demand the sense of “reliance,” “trust.” The same is true of the apostolic writings. In them, with rarest exceptions, the words “reliance,” “trust,” precisely fit the context as alternatives to “faith.”

3. Faith in the Sense of Creed

Another line of meaning is traceable in a very few passages, where pistis, “faith,” appears in the sense of “creed,” the truth, or body of truth, which is trusted, or which justifies trust. The most important of such places is the paragraph Jam_2:14-26, where an apparent contradiction to some great Pauline dicta perplexes many readers. The riddle is solved by observing that the writer uses “faith” in the sense of creed, orthodox “belief.” This is clear from Jam_2:19, where the “faith.” in question is illustrated: “Thou believest that God is one.” This is the credal confession of the orthodox Jew (the shema‛; see Deu_6:4), taken as a passport to salvation. Briefly, James presses the futility of creed without life, Paul the necessity of reliance in order to receive “life and peace.”

4. A Leading Passage Explained

It is important to notice that Heb_11:1 is no exception to the rule that “faith” normally means “reliance,” “trust.” There “Faith is the substance (or possibly, in the light of recent inquiries into the type of Greek used by New Testament writers, “the guaranty”) of things hoped for, the evidence (or “convincing proof”) of things not seen.” This is sometimes interpreted as if faith, in the writer's view, were, so to speak, a faculty of second sight, a mysterious intuition into the spiritual world. But the chapter amply shows that the faith illustrated, e.g. by Abraham, Moses, Rahab, was simply reliance upon a God known to be trustworthy. Such reliance enabled the believer to treat the future as present and the invisible as seen. In short, the phrase here, “faith is the evidence,” etc., is parallel in form to our familiar saying, “Knowledge is power.”

5. Remarks

A few detached remarks may be added: (a) The history of the use of the Greek pistis is instructive. In the Septuagint it normally, if not always, bears the “passive” sense “fidelity,” “good faith,” while in classical Greek it not rarely bears the active sense, “trust.” In the koinē, the type of Greek universally common at the Christian era, it seems to have adopted the active meaning as the ruling one only just in time, so to speak, to provide it for the utterance of Him whose supreme message was “reliance,” and who passed that message on to His apostles. Through their lips and pens “faith,” in that sense, became the supreme watchword of Christianity. See JUSTIFICATION; UNION WITH CHRIST.

6. Conclusion

In conclusion, without trespassing on the ground of other articles, we call the reader's attention, for his Scriptural studies, to the central place of faith in Christianity, and its significance. As being, in its true idea, a reliance as simple as possible upon the word, power, love, of Another, it is precisely that which, on man's side, adjusts him to the living and merciful presence and action of a trusted God. In its nature, not by any mere arbitrary arrangement, it is his one possible receptive attitude, that in which he brings nothing, so that he may receive all. Thus “faith” is our side of union with Christ. And thus it is our means of possessing all His benefits, pardon, justification, purification, life, peace, glory.

As a comment on our exposition of the ruling meaning of “faith” in Scripture, we may note that this precisely corresponds to its meaning in common life, where, for once that the word means anything else, it means “reliance” a hundred times. Such correspondence between religious terms (in Scripture) and the meaning of the same words in common life, will be found to be invariable.

Or Hebrews 11:1 KJV

Now, Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.

Amplified: (I love the amplified bible, probably because I'm a woman).

Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed of things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

We 'walk by faith'. When things are so hard, and it seems almost hopeless, and we want to rely on ourselves to solve problems, or tell someone just what we think about them, we have FAITH, and TRUST in God that he knows what he's doing, and the trail will work patience and help us grow.

My Aunt, I had been praying for her since I became a believer 10 months ago. I love her man, and I can tell that there were things there, that manifested, and caused things, bitterness, unforgiveness, etc. I never once confessed those things on her, When I'd get upset at anyone, I'd say, "Father I just thank you that MY FAMILY, is saved delivered ON FIRE and serving you". I found out today that this past Sunday she went to a non-denominational church, and from the way she talked about it, she liked it!

Then, there was this woman, who I've known since I was 4. She would always want to come back to God, but she's always go back to the same influences, and yeild to those temptations, and get caught up again. Needless to say, I watched my own family members turn from her, and doubt her sincerity, but God gave me a dream. In this dream, I seen her go up to the alter, and her sister too. Over a month ago, I watched this woman, walk up to the alter, with tears all over her face, and I just lifted my hands and thanked God. Then I wondered, what would have happened to her, reguardless of her sincerity, if I would have been like the rest of my family, and formed opinions about her, based on theirs? She would have went back, again. I thank God he showed me not to do that, and I thank God, that he placed her in my life.

I thank God for giving me faith enough to trust in him, even though it can be hard at times.

I've noticed, when I start asking God for something, and believing him for it, the first thing that happens, is the Devil comes, and he makes it so hard, BUT IF YOU STAY FAITHFUL TO GOD, HE WILL SHOW YOU HE IS GOD, and a GREAT GOD HE IS.

The first time I came to God, I was 12 and ON FIRE! At 12 I was saying, "Father, I'm ready, send me to wherever you want me to go, I'LL GO NOW!" Not long after that, things begin to happen, and the VERY FIRST THING I DID, was TURN FROM GOD. This happens alot to.

This day in age, it's HARD to be fake to God, because when you're sqeezed what you've been putting in, comes out. What you're really made of, shows. Walk by FAITH, Trust IN GOD, reguardless of your circumstances, God is God.



Added:Look over the typos.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 10-31-2005).]

xtreem5150ahm



I think you were looking for this..

Romans 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

And about.. Sinning and Being saved.

1 John 1:9

If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].

John 3:16

16For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

xtreem5150ahm



I think you were looking for this..

Romans 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

And about.. Sinning and Being saved.

1 John 1:9

If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].

John 3:16

16For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

Thank you Shellz! I think that was one of the ones i was thinking of. And the others were on the mark too.

I really liked that you added 1 John 1:9. Not only does it show that we are continuously saved; but by implication, it shows that we need to be continuously saved.

And it also shows that it is a maturing process..just like a gardener prunes and tends the garden, as Jesus illustrated.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Thank you Shellz! I think that was one of the ones i was thinking of. And the others were on the mark too.

I really liked that you added 1 John 1:9. Not only does it show that we are continuously saved; but by implication, it shows that we need to be continuously saved.

And it also shows that it is a maturing process..just like a gardener prunes and tends the garden, as Jesus illustrated.

Of course, that's why our spirit is renewed day by day.

Show lack of evidence to the contrary.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Yes.

What is the difference between murder and any other sin?

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

What about the verse from James I quoted? How can you assume from that that this man would still go to heaven? I agree that every sin is equally bad, but that isn't the point. My point is, it makes no sense for a religion to believe that faith alone can get you to heaven, even if that person's actions in no way reflect that faith.



quote:This is not "where Luther fucked up", it is where sinful man does.

Luther (if he actually said that.. i'm not sure at this moment, and too lazy to look it up for sure) got it from Scripture (or rather, it comes from Scripture..as theBishop pointed out):

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God : Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Eph 2:8-9

I repeat, what about the verse from James? The entire verse? Consider the James verse a supplement to this one. It says we're saved through grace. Everyone can agree on that. It says through faith. James says that faith alone isn't enough to save us, and faith alone doesn't guarantee grace. Couldn't one assume that by works, the author means donating money, or doing one of those others popular actions that people think put them in better position with God? It would make a lot of sense considering the audience for that book of the bible.

quote:napoleon_complex, in a nutshell, faith is for one's self, given by God. <Works of Faith> are the outword expression of faith, so that others might see (kinda like 'being the best bible that some people might see'). But works that are done with the intentions of the person, to show "how righteous i am" are not the samething as <works of faith>.

I know and I fully agree. However, the bible says that works of faith are necessary for one to get to heaven. Faith alone does not cut it. I'm in no way talking about works done in boastfulness or ways to bring attention, just to clear that up.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

What about the verse from James I quoted? How can you assume from that that this man would still go to heaven? I agree that every sin is equally bad, but that isn't the point. My point is, it makes no sense for a religion to believe that faith alone can get you to heaven, even if that person's actions in no way reflect that faith.

What i said looking at it as though it's two different kinds of works is my point. If one has the true faith.. the kind that leads to Jesus.. with that faith, works are a product of it. That product exists for compassion for our fellow human so that others see that it is genuine and might open their heart to accept God. (Dont get me wrong here, i am not saying that we need to live a "good" life as an advertisement of God. If the faith is true, that "good work" is actually done to God.. and more importantly-- though we dont see it-- by God)

That product is not produced by the person himself, but by God. Even people that dont believe, do "good works" and often those works are sincere, good hearted works that dont have a hidden aggenda.

What i think James was saying, is that without those works "showing through", then the faith that is professed is just useless at best and lip-service at worst.

If it's of the useless variety, it might still be of the true kind, but has not grown and matured yet. (This is my comment, not James)

Anyway, this is from John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible(lol just James 2:14, though)

quote:Jam 2:14 - What doth it profit, my brethren,.... The apostle having finished his discourse on respect of persons, and the arguments he used to dissuade from it, by an easy transition passes to treat upon faith and works, showing that faith without works, particularly without works of mercy, is of no profit and advantage:

though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? it is clear that the apostle is not speaking of true faith, for that, in persons capable of performing them, is not without works; it is an operative grace; it works by love and kindness, both to Christ, and to his members; but of a profession of faith, a mere historical one, by which a man, at most, assents to the truth of things, as even devils do, Jam_2:19 and only says he has faith, but has it not; as Simon Magus, who said he believed, but did not.

Can faith save him? such a faith as this, a faith without works, an historical one, a mere profession of faith, which lies only in words, and has no deeds, to show the truth and genuineness of it. True faith indeed has no causal influence on salvation, or has any virtue and efficacy in itself to save; Christ, object of faith, is the only cause and author of salvation; faith is only that grace which receives a justifying righteousness, the pardon of sin, adoption, and a right to the heavenly inheritance; but it does not justify, nor pardon, nor adopt, nor give the right to the inheritance, but lays hold on, and claims these, by virtue of the gift of grace; and it has spiritual and eternal salvation inseparably connected with it; but as for the other faith, a man may have it, and be in the gall of bitterness, and bond of iniquity; he may have all faith in that sense, and be nothing; it is no other than the devils themselves have; and so he may have it, and be damned.

Gotta go right now, wife just got home and i've also a conversation with an old friend..Digital_Savior.

I'll try to address some of your other comments later.

ok, i'm not good at doing 2 things at a time, but i'm going to attempt 3.. lol. so i'm going to try to do this inbetween talking with my wife and w/ Digital.

Now, reguarding "How can you assume from that that this man would still go to heaven?"

i can assume that if that person truely believes and repents (on his death-bed, was your senario, right?.. not that it matters, but for this response it'll make things clearer, i think) because that is what Jesus said.. "believe and be baptised" and "no one comes to the Father but by me"-- sorry, paraphrased, do to juggling tasks.

Where you said, "My point is, it makes no sense for a religion to believe that faith alone can get you to heaven, even if that person's actions in no way reflect that faith.".. if i am not mistaken, basically that thought would be along the lines of "God isnt powerful enough, i've gotta help my salvation out". Otherwise, i would have to remind you that it is not us that judges "that person, whose actions dont reflect the the faith". (this is the reason that i said that the death-bed thing would be clearer/easier) It is God who searches the heart. If that person truely believed and truly was sorry for what he had done, then God has assured us that He will forgive.

***************

gotta revert back to the other post about James, for a second...had a quick thought.

In I corinthians, chapter 13:1-13 explains this much better than i can. Pay particular attention to the 2nd and last verse. (depending on the bible that you use, the word is either charity or love. If you look up either word in a good dictionary, you'll see that the word is interchangable, and fits well with the text either way).... I'll post the 2nd and the last verses of the text. Also, verse 3 noteworthy to our conversation... and i'll include that too.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity(love), I am nothing.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity(love), these three; but the greatest of these is charity.



1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.



The reason i wanted to include the 3rd verse, is that this verse is more along the lines of how we, here in the 21st century America use the word "charity" to mean helping out others. i.e. good works



**********

ok, it's the next day, got connection back.. getting ready to take off for the anniversary day (leaving at 8am- it's 745) and im going to post what i have here.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Now, reguarding "How can you assume from that that this man would still go to heaven?"

i can assume that if that person truely believes and repents (on his death-bed, was your senario, right?.. not that it matters, but for this response it'll make things clearer, i think) because that is what Jesus said.. "believe and be baptised" and "no one comes to the Father but by me"-- sorry, paraphrased, do to juggling tasks.

However, The bible also says that God will repay everyone according to his or her conduct. This means that a simple repentence or indulgence will not cut it in the eyes of God. I'm not saying that people can get to heaven without Jesus, but I am saying they can't get there unless they do good works.

quote:Where you said, "My point is, it makes no sense for a religion to believe that faith alone can get you to heaven, even if that person's actions in no way reflect that faith.".. if i am not mistaken, basically that thought would be along the lines of "God isnt powerful enough, i've gotta help my salvation out". Otherwise, i would have to remind you that it is not us that judges "that person, whose actions dont reflect the the faith". (this is the reason that i said that the death-bed thing would be clearer/easier) It is God who searches the heart. If that person truely believed and truly was sorry for what he had done, then God has assured us that He will forgive.

***************

I'm not saying that God isn't powerful enough. What I'm saying is that God doesn't want to be the only entity doing anything in getting people to heaven. God is certainly powerful enough, but that doesn't mean he'll do it. I also know that God will forgive us if we're truly sorry, but I'm not debating that. I'm saying that faith in God is nothing unless one also does good works/lives a good life.

quote:gotta revert back to the other post about James, for a second...had a quick thought.

In I corinthians, chapter 13:1-13 explains this much better than i can. Pay particular attention to the 2nd and last verse. (depending on the bible that you use, the word is either charity or love. If you look up either word in a good dictionary, you'll see that the word is interchangable, and fits well with the text either way).... I'll post the 2nd and the last verses of the text. Also, verse 3 noteworthy to our conversation... and i'll include that too.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity(love), I am nothing.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity(love), these three; but the greatest of these is charity.



1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.



The reason i wanted to include the 3rd verse, is that this verse is more along the lines of how we, here in the 21st century America use the word "charity" to mean helping out others. i.e. good works



**********

ok, it's the next day, got connection back.. getting ready to take off for the anniversary day (leaving at 8am- it's 745) and im going to post what i have here.

I'm confused. This seems to support the idea that good works/charity is necessary for salvation. Fiath without good works is nothing! That's my point.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I'm confused. This seems to support the idea that good works/charity is necessary for salvation. Fiath without good works is nothing! That's my point.

Short Version:

Works are for the here and now. Treat others like you'ld want to be treated, cause life is much better that way.

"Faith without works is nothing"--- Yes. But the point is, live your faith. BE the best Bible that you can be, cuz it may be the only Bible some people will ever be.



Long Version:

What i'm trying to point out, is that the only thing that saves is Grace through Faith in the finished/accomplished work on the cross, of Jesus the Christ, period. This is the reason that that death-bed mobster can inherit eternal life.

But Faith is an intangible thing. Anyone can say, "i believe" but how is this seen by anyone else. God can see whether your Faith is real without 'works', but no one else can. So James must have been talking about it from an earthly, practical POV. But like i said before, it is not the person that is doing the 'good works', it is Faith that is really doing them (if that Faith is true). Faith is showing itself (yes, personified) by works.

Why?

As a testomony to yourself, so you know that your faith is real.

As a testomony to other believers, to strengthen their faith.

As a testomony to non-believers, that they might be lead to faith.

But again, it is not the person doing the works--- "lest any man boast". It is Faith showing itself. Kinda like an apple tree, when it's healthy, it "shows" its fruit. If it is unhealthy, it shows less fruit. If it dies, it is still an apple tree, but produces nothing.

Using Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-36). At the end of the parable (v.36), Jesus asked His audience, "Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves?"

In the parable, the other two were a priest and a Levite, which implies that they both claimed to have faith (to believe in God, actually).

This is from Clarke:

quote:Luk 10:31-32 -

Priest and Levite are mentioned here, partly because they were the most frequent travelers on this road, and partly to show that these were the persons who, from the nature of their office, were most obliged to perform works of mercy; and from whom a person in distress had a right to expect immediate succor and comfort; and their inhuman conduct here was a flat breach of the law, Deu_22:1-4.



Now the parable (actually, i dont think it was a parable, but that's for another discussion) does not say who, if any, was eternally saved. As far as i can see, the parable does not even point us to knowledge of the motivation of Samaritain. It's just talking about how we should act toward our fellow.

But an interesting aside to that, which might be implied to first century readers:

quote:"So the Samaritans were a "mixed race" contaminated by foreign blood and false worship. The Jewish historian Josephus indicates that the Samaritans were also opportunists. When the Jews enjoyed prosperity, the Samaritans were quick to acknowledge their blood relationship. But when the Jews suffered hard times, the Samaritans disowned any such kinship, declaring that they were descendants of Assyrian immigrants...." ~~~Samaritan entry in Nelson's Compact Bible Dictionary

And also, there is the Samaritan Penateuch (which has differences, both accidental and intentional, to Massoretic and Septuagint...

So what i'm getting at, is that Jesus audience most likely did not have good feelings about the Samaritans, but they basically did believe in the same God as the Jews. But by showing that the Samaritan was more a neighbor than the two that were required by Law to help, Jesus was, in effect, saying: "dont just profess your faith, live it". This is earthly and practical.



Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

From Clarke:

"Jam 1:22 -

But be ye doers of the word - They had heard this doctrine; they had believed it; but they had put it to no practical use. They were downright Antinomians, who put a sort of stupid, inactive faith in the place of all moral righteousness. This is sufficiently evident from the second chapter..."

I hope this helped,

xtreem

I agree with everything you posted, but none of that is the point of this thread. The point of this thread is which is necessary for grace, which is necessary for salvation.

Is faith all by itself with no good works enough to get someone into heaven? Or does someone need to have good works in addition to that faith. That's been my whole point of contention. I think the bible states pretty clearly that someone has to do good works to get into heaven. Everything else you typed was very interesting, but I'm not so sure what that has to do with the faith vs. Faith&Good works debate.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I agree with everything you posted, but none of that is the point of this thread. The point of this thread is which is necessary for grace, which is necessary for salvation.

Is faith all by itself with no good works enough to get someone into heaven? Or does someone need to have good works in addition to that faith. That's been my whole point of contention. I think the bible states pretty clearly that someone has to do good works to get into heaven. Everything else you typed was very interesting, but I'm not so sure what that has to do with the faith vs. Faith&Good works debate.



We get into heaven by Grace alone, through faith. Faith shows itself by works, but it is not us that does the <works of faith>. True faith does those works... not the person. I'm not sure how to make it clearer, sorry.

Okay. I guess I need to elaborate here.

We do get into heaven through grace. However, we cannot attain this grace just through faith. The works we've been talking about are more than just being expressions of faith. They are that and then some. Without the works you cannot claim to be truely faithful. The works are essential to attaining grace and faith.

It is the person that does the works. The works are that individual's way of expressing their love both for God and their fellow man. A person does all these things through their love and their faith. The person does it.

Grace for Faith without Works just breeds irresponsibility. I have a Baptist friend (trying to convert me) who told me "Jesus died for my sins, so all I have to have is faith and I go to Heaven! Even though I deserve to go to Hell, I go to Heaven!" Lame.

Actually, Grace for Faith and Works also breeds irresponsibility.

So.. Christianity in general breeds irresponsibility.

If not believing is just another sin, surely everyone goes to heaven?

... http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) score!

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

Many say that by faith, and faith alone we are saved. That if you have faith, that you can do anything, and you will enter into the kingdom of God. Mobsters who make a living extorting, stealing, drugging, beating, prostituting and murdering each believe that they will be saved becasue they were baptised and they go to church as a catholic. Will they be saved? I do not believe so. I think that only by both having faith in Christ and by being a good person and doing good works can one be saved.

Show me where you can find a verse that says you can be saved and lead a sinful life.

Zip it, you naffin' sticky-fingered arsemonger.

"sin" is just population controll.

quote:Originally posted by sp0rkius:

If not believing is just another sin, surely everyone goes to heaven?

... http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) score!

He aims, he shoots, he MISSES. Not a score. It's by GRACE you are saved THROUGH FAITH. If you haven't faith, there is no remission of sins, because you aren't accepting the sacrifice.

She aims, she shoots.. NOTHING BUT THE NET.

It's all in the word. It's almost funny, how some of you try and talk like you know the Word, or have read it, but seeing you don't know God, you haven't understanding of the Word of God. So why try to even pretend to understand or know? I don't get it..

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

It's all in the word. It's almost funny, how some of you try and talk like you know the Word, or have read it, but seeing you don't know God, you haven't understanding of the Word of God. So why try to even pretend to understand or know? I don't get it..

I've heard this so many times. It's the lamest argument ever. I don't think YOU have read 'the word.' Maybe you've read 3 or 4 passages that your bible study teacher told you to memorize, but you have no idea of the bible in whole. Why do YOU try to pretend to understand anything? That's what I don't get.

You are like tech support, conditioned with premade, generalized answers that never actually answer anything.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

I've heard this so many times. It's the lamest argument ever. I don't think YOU have read 'the word.' Maybe you've read 3 or 4 passages that your bible study teacher told you to memorize, but you have no idea of the bible in whole. Why do YOU try to pretend to understand anything? That's what I don't get.

You are like tech support, conditioned with premade, generalized answers that never actually answer anything.

I've read God's word many times. Much more than two or tree passages. Reading the bible is an EVERYDAY thing for me. Nice assumption. **Rolls eyes:**

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-05-2005).]

You say that, but the way you post shows that it's not true.