View Full Version : WHy so many catholics>athesis?
john_deer
2005-10-31, 03:57
i was looking at paradise lost's thread and i noticed many people went from catholic/christian > athesis, or even "don't give a fuck".
is this because priests touched you, or you were raised that way (and were forced into it/ therefore left as soon as you got a chance)? whats the reason?
For the same reason so Catholic school girls have a reputation for being sluts.
Serious traditional catholic is a very strict and controling religion. Not only does it frown on things that come naturally to people but it doesn't offer an accurate view of life outside the church.
So people decide that they can't live such a way anymore or that things are different than they were told and change. The church didn't provide them with a very good foundation so instead of becoming a less strict christian it's a 180 rebound to the opposite of the church.
At least that is one explanation (there is more than one, obviously).
It has a very strong tradition of dragging little kids into church, and scaring the shit out of them. Can you imagine telling a kid they have ORIGINAL SIN (for being born) and are going to hell unless they baptise, commune and confess...
I was catholic until I grew up and realised that there's more fear mongering in Catholicism than substance...
As an adult now, I still can't get rid of the guilt they put on me as a child.
literary syphilis
2005-10-31, 05:31
I've always wanted to be a fallen Catholic. It's far more poetic than being a fallen Protestant.
[This message has been edited by literary syphilis (edited 10-31-2005).]
Josh rocks
2005-10-31, 15:19
quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:
I've always wanted to be a fallen Catholic. It's far more poetic than being a fallen Protestant.
I agree, although it would have ment growing up catholic...
and that just.. wouldn't have worked for me...
xtreem5150ahm
2005-10-31, 17:00
QUOTE Originally posted by Beta69:
Serious traditional catholic is a very strict and controling religion. Not only does it frown on things that come naturally to people but it doesn't offer an accurate view of life outside the church.
Or inside the church. The area in which i grow up was very catholic, and many of the things that my catholic friends told me about the catholic religion were misunderstood by them... and also, often were not Scriptural.
So people decide that they can't live such a way anymore or that things are different than they were told and change. The church didn't provide them with a very good foundation so instead of becoming a less strict christian it's a 180 rebound to the opposite of the church.
Beta, i think this is the first post of yours that i agree with 100%.
On a side note, last week i met someone while i was working.. she owns one of the shops that i deliver to occasionally. She had a Greek-English dictionary on the counter, and i asked her if she was learning biblical Greek. She said yes, and that her (female) Pastor taught Greek at Seminary (i also know this Pastor through work). The church that she pastors and the other lady attends, is an ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America). When i told the lady that i attend a WELs church (Wis. Ev. Lutheran), she said, "oooh, you guys are really strict, i dont know if i could handle that". That lady is in her mid-50's. I've never felt that our church was strict because what they teach has that (biblical) foundation that you mentioned and that is what i grew up with. (mind you, as i've said in the past, some areas (of lutheran doctrine) i disagree with.. mainly eschatology...based on my reading of the Bible, but on this i'm hardly vocal about it, since i have not the education level that pastors and the like have.
napoleon_complex
2005-10-31, 19:18
I think a lot of people, including catholics, don't really know much about catholicism or what it's about.
If anyone has ever actually read Catholic doctorine, they would know the explanations that the Church gives for their stances. Catholic teaching is very grounded in scripture, so I don't know where you get that from.
It's really sad when most people's understanding on catholicism comes from myths, stereotypes, and the opinions of disgruntled Catholics.
theBishop
2005-10-31, 19:52
I think religion, is too often passed down from parents to children in an irresponsible way.
The bible does instruct us to raise our children as christians:
"And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." - Eph 6:4
but i don't think most parents approach this properly. children are made to feel that they "have" go to church and miss the point of christianity as a relationship with god. so as adults, they view religion as a meaningless sunday morning ritual.
christians should not view their faith as a "tradition".
napoleon_complex
2005-10-31, 20:40
I also think Catholic school plays a big part in why so many Catholics become less religious. The number of Catholic teenagers who drink, do drugs, and have sex would surprise most people who've never been to Catholic school.
quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:
I think a lot of people, including catholics, don't really know much about catholicism or what it's about.
If anyone has ever actually read Catholic doctorine, they would know the explanations that the Church gives for their stances. Catholic teaching is very grounded in scripture, so I don't know where you get that from.
It's really sad when most people's understanding on catholicism comes from myths, stereotypes, and the opinions of disgruntled Catholics.
quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:
It's really sad when most people's understanding on catholicism comes from myths, stereotypes, and the opinions of disgruntled Catholics.
I may be disgruntled but I feel that my opinion still counts… Your opinion only matters if Catholicism works for you?. That’s a very Catholic viewpoint...
I remember sitting in school. Confused beyond belief as it is explained to me, that questioning faith is a sin, but teachers will be accepting your questions…
xtreem5150ahm
2005-11-01, 01:31
quote:Originally posted by Axiom:
I remember sitting in school. Confused beyond belief as it is explained to me, that questioning faith is a sin, but teachers will be accepting your questions…
I agree with you here. That would be confusing.
I dont think that questioning faith is a sin. In fact, i think to a point, Solomon questioned faith "under the sun".
And that is why i disagree that the faith that is given by God, is blind faith. Sometimes it is, and to a point, i envy those that have simple, blind faith. But then again, if faith isnt questioned, how can it grow? How could it mature?
HellzShellz
2005-11-01, 01:41
quote:Originally posted by theBishop:
I think religion, is too often passed down from parents to children in an irresponsible way.
The bible does instruct us to raise our children as christians:
"And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." - Eph 6:4
but i don't think most parents approach this properly. children are made to feel that they "have" go to church and miss the point of christianity as a relationship with god. so as adults, they view religion as a meaningless sunday morning ritual.
christians should not view their faith as a "tradition".
Sometimes. I grew up baptist, and even though I heard how all 'those evil people' spoke in tongues, I ended up being one of those people. When I began to come back to Christ one of the first things I did was Get filled with the Holy-Ghost. Before, I could read the bible and be like "Whattttttttttt", after that I could read the bible for hours and hours and be like, "Wow!! This is some GOOD stuff." I was hungry, umm. I was so hungry.
Anyways at the time I was seeing a baptist man, Very old and set in his baptists ways. I began to tell him about the signs of Christ, what he said.. "These signs shall follow them that BELIEVE, they shall lay hands on the sick and they SHALL recover."
He said That was only for the disciples, but the bible says, THOSE WHO BELIEVE. Well, I BELIEVE in God! Then he said, "Let's go to a graveyard, and raise people." Well, it doesn't work like that. You do what the HOLY SPIRIT tells you to do, you don't tell the Holy Spirit what to do.
Anyways, religion is blinding to the people. I don't think the problem is with religion, it's with the people who follow religion. Why? Well, if they were reading their bible they would learn from Christ, not from man, and if they were reading their bible, they would be able to point out what's wrong and what isn't. So many religions are formed off what people THINK the bible means. Well, if you're going to base your belief off what YOU THINK, and not what IT SAYS, there's your problem.
This is why when someone tells me something, I'm uncertain of, I say, Give me 5 scripture to support it. Half of the time, They misinterpret and say, what THEY THINK it means, instead of taking it into context. My goodness, Hopefully yall know, Chapter 1 comes BEFORE chapter two.
[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-01-2005).]
ArgonPlasma2000
2005-11-01, 04:12
Honestly, there isnt much in Catholicism that could keep them there... much like keeping their salvation! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
napoleon_complex
2005-11-01, 22:42
quote:Originally posted by Axiom:
I may be disgruntled but I feel that my opinion still counts… Your opinion only matters if Catholicism works for you?. That’s a very Catholic viewpoint...
I remember sitting in school. Confused beyond belief as it is explained to me, that questioning faith is a sin, but teachers will be accepting your questions…
I wasn't referring to you. I'm just saying that I know a lot of former Catholics who, when describing their old religion, tend to over emphasize how bad it was or they tend to forget the good things.
Also, Catholic doctorine doesn't teach that questioning faith is a sin, so either your teacher was retarded, or.....your teacher was retarded.
quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:
I also think Catholic school plays a big part in why so many Catholics become less religious. The number of Catholic teenagers who drink, do drugs, and have sex would surprise most people who've never been to Catholic school.
Teenagers? All of them... except the one with a heart problem (who actually died after 8th grade). In my school, most started that in about 6th grade...
quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:
I wasn't referring to you. I'm just saying that I know a lot of former Catholics who, when describing their old religion, tend to over emphasize how bad it was or they tend to forget the good things.
Also, Catholic doctorine doesn't teach that questioning faith is a sin, so either your teacher was retarded, or.....your teacher was retarded.
I was just addressing the point that you put former Catholics in the same sentence as Myths and Stereotypes(Both false opinions)... Former Catholics would be neither of these, they've got a unique insight both within the family and from outside looking in...
It was my Sunday School teachers... And I think you're mistaken, because I remember it very well... I asked a question, the whole way home in the car I was almost crying because I was sure I was going to hell... And since I was too young to confess, I had to be extra careful not to die before then…
napoleon_complex
2005-11-02, 02:50
I'm not saying that disgruntled Catholics are completely wrong like myths or stereotypes are, I'm just saying they don't help in people's, especially people not familiar with Catholicism, understanding of the Church, because their representation of the Church tends to not be fair. That's all i'm saying.
As for faith. This is from the Catholic encyclopedia. These are the two corrolaries that help to define what faith is:
"That temptations against faith are natural and inevitable and are in no sense contrary to faith, "since", says St. Thomas, "the assent of the intellect in faith is due to the will, and since the object to which the intellect thus assents is not its own proper object -- for that is actual vision of an intelligible object -- it follows that the intellect's attitude towards that object is not one of tranquillity, on the contrary it thinks and inquires about those things it believes, all the while that it assents to them unhesitatingly; for as far as it itself is concerned the intellect is not satisfied" (De Ver., xiv, 1).
(b) It also follows from the above that an act of supernatural faith is meritorious, since it proceeds from the will moved by Divine grace or charity, and thus has all the essential constituents of a meritorious act (cf. II-II, Q. ii, a. 9). This enables us to understand St. James's words when he says, "The devils also believe and tremble" (ii, 19) . "It is not willingly that they assent", says St. Thomas, "but they are compelled thereto by the evidence of those signs which prove that what believers assent to is true, though even those proofs do not make the truths of faith so evident as to afford what is termed vision of them" (De Ver., xiv 9, ad 4); nor is their faith Divine, but merely philosophical and natural. Some may fancy the foregoing analyses superfluous, and may think that they savour too much of Scholasticism. But if anyone will be at the pains to compare the teaching of the Fathers, of the Scholastics, and of the divines of the Anglican Church in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, with that of the non-Catholic theologians of to-day, he will find that the Scholastics merely put into shape what the Fathers taught, and that the great English divines owe their solidity and genuine worth to their vast patristic knowledge and their strictly logical training."
It's obvious by the first one that questioning one's faith is in no way a sin.
Fanglekai
2005-11-02, 03:17
I don't think levels of sex, drugs, alcohol, etc are that much higher in catholic schools necessarily. I think it depends more on the area in which you live. Where I live, the alcohol use was more than the public schools (on average, or at least more kids got caught) the sex count was a little lower, and the drug usage was probably equal. girls got labeled as sluts far easier at my school, so they were more careful about what they did or about who they told.
personally i didn't drink, do drugs, or have sex in high school. i actually strictly followed the religion. damn that made life hell. as soon as i graduated i got completely out of it, away from it, and i've never looked back.
I wouldn't say, technacally I'm catholic, but I really don't care. I know it's probably harsh in places, but I got kicked out of catholic school, and I've felt kind of good since. I don't attend church terribly often, once every two months, plus Christmas and Easter. I havn't had any priest problems, cuz as soon as ordinary time begins, I tend to act busy to avoid going to church. It confounds my physique. Stand, sit. Kneel, stand, kneel, sit, kneel, eat a cracker, get drunk, kneel, sit, stand, Sign of the cross, go home. Sing in between occasionally. Those scary withered turkeys in the confessionals scared me away and I don't go more than I feel like it.
I still have christian tendencies, read revalation for the death and flaming locusts, pray to St. Anthony if I lose something, Ask God to help survive when I'm about to get my ass kicked, I have a crucifix necklace that I wear, and there's palm branches on my bathroom door, but not much else. I get communion about 10 times a year in accordance with the Pope, but you know.