If you were to ask me one thing I dislike about humans, it would be the following.

I can't stand it, when you're with a few people, and they ask you, if you're a Christian. You say, "Oh Yes!" After having said that, you now have a certain standard they've placed on your life, that you have to follow. Well, people don't set stardards on my life, Jesus does.

So.. you say, "Oh Goodness, you're weird". Then you get this.. "Isn't is against God to judge people?"

Bottom line is, Even though, I, Shelly, am adopted as a daughter of God, I'm not perfect. I'm still human, and I still face the very same temptations an unbeliever does. The thing is, Greater is he that is in me. I don't have to make mistakes, but I am allowed to, believe it or not. So I can learn from it. God will let you do things your way, just to show you his way is better.

So yea. Basically, don't set standards on my life. I said I was a Christian, not Christ. You want to see perfection, look at Jesus, not me. I'll let you down so quick your head will spin, but he will NEVER let you down.

Peace and love.

You're not perfect. So?

That's an excuse for why you committ errors, not an argument for not pointing out those errors to you.

They point it out because it may seem hypocritical of you and thus unreasonable for you to do so at first, but also in the hopes that you don't do it again.

The same applies to teachers. Should students not correct a teacher if the teacher makes a mistake while writing on the board? She's not perfect after all. No, that would be ridiculous.

They should point out how she was wrong, and they should point it out often.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



I'm still human, and I still face the very same temptations an unbeliever does. The thing is, Greater is he that is in me. I don't have to make mistakes, but I am allowed to, believe it or not. So I can learn from it. God will let you do things your way, just to show you his way is better.

I said I was a Christian, not Christ. You want to see perfection, look at Jesus, not me. I'll let you down so quick your head will spin, but he will NEVER let you down.

Peace and love.

Well, essentially, all christians strive to be like Jesus... So technically, you are not allowed to sin, or you aren't really a christian. You seem to use the fact that you aren't "Jesus Christ" as an argument for being allowed to sin.

Edit: This may sound offensive and attacking, but it was more or less intended as a question. Just tell me how you see it.



[This message has been edited by Dre Crabbe (edited 10-31-2005).]

Hmm...

you're using some interesting language that doesn't really sound familiar to me. what (if any) denomination do you subscribe to?

also, i do see what you're saying about what other people expect from you when you tell them you are a christian. its true that no one, christian or otherwise is going to live up the the standard put forth by God. But we should still lead our lives in a way that others see Christ through us:

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." - Matt 5:16

As paul said it, I am not a sinner, because Christ lives in me, and there is no sin in Christ. (Spirit) HOWEVER, there IS SIN in my MORTAL body, therefore I have sin in my flesh. I DO, in fact, have the SAME temptations, and I try my best not to mess up for the sake of those who are watching me, not for myself, but when I do, It shouldn't come as a shock to people, because I AM HUMAN. I have a flesh, and there are things that please my flesh, thus I do make mistakes, and I will continue to have a mortal body until Jesus comes back and I become like him.

Added: I'm Word of Faith

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 10-31-2005).]

What reason have you to give a fuck?

As long as you are true to God you dont have answer to anyone.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

What reason have you to give a fuck?

As long as you are true to God you dont have answer to anyone.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:



"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." - Matt 5:16



That's why.

Why do you want to glorify God ?

quote:Originally posted by Dre Crabbe:

Why do you want to glorify God ?

Because he's GOD. He is GOD! That makes me happy. I tell you what man, My day can be going so horrible, and I can just sit back, relax, lift my hands and say, "Thank you, Father!" Because no matter where I am, He is still on his throne, and Christ is still seated at his right hand. He saved me. He LOVED me, and I LOVE him because he FIRST loved me. Why wouldn't I want my Father to be known, and glorified? You asked, So Ima be real. He loved me so much, he gave me everything In Christ. Everything, according to HIS riches and glory. He seat me at his right hand IN CHRIST. He did so much for me, and continues to. When he took me, He took me just as I was, because he loved me just the way I am, but when I began to fellowship with him, I began to change. Boy, God might take you just as you are, but as soon as he takes you, you change. I can't disappoint God, he knows everything I'm going to do before I do it, and loves me anyways. HE IS GOD!

As with me not being Christ, being an excuse to sin, ABSOLUTLEY NOT! I don't SIN because I know God will forgive me.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-01-2005).]

I respect your right to personal spirituality.

However I'd like to add something

Christians comit pride when they say their religion is better then everyone elses.

^What he said.

Also, how are you sure that "God" loves you, or even exists?

Forgiveness is easily rationalized by humans when there is a Higher Power at work in their heads. The ultimate loophole.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

its true that no one, christian or otherwise is going to live up the the standard put forth by God.

So what your saying is that everyones going to hell. Cause, correct me if im wrong, but dont you go to hell if you dont live upp to his standards.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

He saved me. He LOVED me, and I LOVE him because he FIRST loved me.

This love you speak of... were might it be purchased? Can i have some sample love upfront from god? Does it come in the mail?

Really what im asking is have ya got any and i mean any proof of this love? Besides the fact that you might be insane and hearing things.

You're fucking mad.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

I respect your right to personal spirituality.

However I'd like to add something

Christians comit pride when they say their religion is better then everyone elses.

I didn't say my religion, I said MY GOD.

Jesus, My Lord, My God!

fai1safe, It was purchased at the cross, and given freely, to anyone and everyone, who wants it. Proof of this love? It's called the Holy Bible, KJV, or AMPLIFIED. I use them both. Being that the inspired Word of God is the only truth, that's proof enough.

Crazed_Hamster, Nah. Just peculiar. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

It was purchased at the cross, and given freely, to anyone and everyone, who wants it. Proof of this love? It's called the Holy Bible, KJV, or AMPLIFIED. I use them both. Being that the inspired Word of God is the only truth, that's proof enough.

It's amazing how important words like "truth" and "love" lose ALL connection with reality, when used by a christian.

Truth... Do you care to verify the things you read, do you check your sources, do you question? Or maybe you believe a book is the word of god, because the same book says so? This is hardly the way one learns the truth.

Love... What is love worth when it has no physical impact on you? What real, tangible effect that we can witness does God's love have on you? What difference did one crucifixion make to the suffering of mankind the past 2000 years?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



Crazed_Hamster, Nah. Just peculiar. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

No, I'm afraid you're just mad.

I tell you what Elfstone, Keep looking for love in THIS WORLD, from Humans. When you find it, Let me know. TRUTH is You never will. You want a perfect love, everyone does, I have that perfect love, and you hate me for it? The Holy presence of GOD is A BILLION TIMES OVER, BETTER THAN SEX, ever can or will be. I'd rather be in God's presence than be in the presence of a naked man with an erection. I'm not into temporary things, but rather, things that last forever. The joy, peace, love, God gives, never ends, EVER. I wish for EACH OF YOU to experience God like I have. Just a little fragment of how I have, and you'd love him the same, you'd understand his love.





[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-01-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I tell you what Elfstone, Keep looking for love in THIS WORLD, from Humans. When you find it, Let me know. TRUTH is You never will.

Maybe you should speak for yourself. I am human, I am from this world, so that's where I'm looking for love. Whether I'll be succesful, it's not for you to say.



quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

You want a perfect love, everyone does, I have that perfect love, and you hate me for it?

You haven't really shown me that you have this "perfect" love. And when exactly did I say I hate you? Maybe you mistake disagreement for hate?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

The Holy presence of GOD is A BILLION TIMES OVER, BETTER THAN SEX, ever can or will be. I'd rather be in God's presence than be in the presence of a naked man with an erection.

Hm, either you never had sex, or had sex with the wrong guy. Give it another shot. I didn't know that being in the presence of God is supposed to be something sexual. Why this comparison and disregard to sex? If you accept God as your creator, aren't you concerned he made you with sexual urges you are so quick to suppress?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I'm not into temporary things, but rather, things that last forever. The joy, peace, love, God gives, never ends, EVER.

Nothing lasts forever, sweetheart. You should realize this before it's too late.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I wish for EACH OF YOU to experience God like I have. Just a little fragment of how I have, and you'd love him the same, you'd understand his love.

These are just fancy but empty words. How do you experience God exactly? If it doesn't involve anything sexual or illegal substances we might grant your wish. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

These are just fancy but empty words. How do you experience God exactly? If it doesn't involve anything sexual or illegal substances we might grant your wish. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



It involves, you WANTING to experience him. Um, Yeah, I've had sex. I'm not giving it another shot until I'm married, because, I want to able to become one with a man who submits to God, and not the desires of his flesh.

This world and the things in it, don't last forever. "This life here on earth will soon pass, and ALL that we do for Christ is ALL that will last." It's all about JESUS, it's all about GOD, and when people can see past selfishness, and carry the heart (spirit) of God, and seek God's will, we'll be better off. Man, heaven isn't like Earth, but Earth is suppose to be like Heaven.

If you reject Christ, reject the one who lives in me. It's like spitting in his face.

I'm amazed how little disregard you have for this life. You are perhaps too young to have been seriously hurt for this effect, so I attribute to a thorough brainwashing.

If it's all about Jesus and God, what do you as an individual matter at all? Was Jesus's sacrifice for himself or for you?

You talk about sex as if it is some duty to God (Ever read Orwell's 1984?). In the bible you hold as absolute truth, Jesus speaks about marriage. I will look for the passages (matthew iirc) some other time, but let's say he rejects the idea, refering to the time of creation when man and woman were made one by God/Love and not the artificial bond of marriage. Yes, sex can be a spiritual thing but you cannot do it without the "desires of the flesh". If you think marriage and such man-made typicalities do justice to the perfect union of man and woman, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed in marriage.

I'm not convinced that Christ ever lived, but what is attributed to him is certainly worth studying.

Here's something to think about hells shells. I have no relgion, I've been to church a couple times with parents, but I never went into religion. However, I still decided that Christ's teachings were worth the effort to imitate, and I do so in my life. I don't do it because god loves me, I just want to be one of the few people that can be considered to be a good person. Jesus didn't believe in following religion, and neither do I. I have an excellent sense of spirituality and oneness with the world, and god to me is simply the system of balance that is perfect.

And what's this shit about their not being love on earth, your life must suck. I love others and others love me. All jesus was about was spreading love in the world, and you think that the only real love is from god and jesus? The teachings of christ are above all religion, and no religion is necessary to make his words your philosophy. Saying your a chistian but not following everything jesus preached, is spitting in his face. You don't have that much of a commitment if you can't do this.

^That's what my point was in some other of my posts, but you can word it much better in English. See HellzShellz, ponder about his post for a while. It will make you a better christian.

Jesus this..

Heh.

Jesus that..

Jesus is dead.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Merchant:

Here's something to think about hells shells. I have no relgion, I've been to church a couple times with parents, but I never went into religion. However, I still decided that Christ's teachings were worth the effort to imitate, and I do so in my life. I don't do it because god loves me, I just want to be one of the few people that can be considered to be a good person. Jesus didn't believe in following religion, and neither do I. I have an excellent sense of spirituality and oneness with the world, and god to me is simply the system of balance that is perfect.

And what's this shit about their not being love on earth, your life must suck. I love others and others love me. All jesus was about was spreading love in the world, and you think that the only real love is from god and jesus? The teachings of christ are above all religion, and no religion is necessary to make his words your philosophy. Saying your a chistian but not following everything jesus preached, is spitting in his face. You don't have that much of a commitment if you can't do this.

Dude, I know. I strive to be better, and become like him, but I'm still NOT PERFECT. I do fall sometimes, and I get right back up, but I try not to fall ever, for the sake of those watching me. People watch people...

Added: I'm 18 years old, I've known more pain than you could possibly imagine. I have a past, just like everyone else, but I don't dwell on it.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-01-2005).]

If you're so close with God, and he lives within you and dwells in your head and all that, why do you care what other mere humans think about you?

You seem really concerned with that. The other human beings aren't going to ultimately judge you in the "end". So God loves you. If you're so ecstatic about it, why preoccupy your mind with what others think? It would seem like something as blissful and enrapturing as you describe would kind of make everyday misunderstandings seem meaningless.

You should pray to your Source to bestow upon you a healthy dose of passivity and tolerance of others who may or may not understand your fixation with God. See if it works.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Merchant:



And what's this shit about their not being love on earth, your life must suck. I love others and others love me. All jesus was about was spreading love in the world, and you think that the only real love is from god and jesus?

We are taught that God is love. The love that you know isn't love at all but only a fraction of it at best. To know God is to know love in it's fullness. Not that we love but that He loves us. Until we see it from His perspective we will never understand it. This is because when we are in a fallen carnal state, we are unable to see beyond our own selfish desires and are unable to see what has been done for us. I have not yet seen a better definition of love then in 1Corinthians13. There you will begin to see the nature of God in His word.



The teachings of christ are above all religion, and no religion is necessary to make his words your philosophy. Saying your a chistian but not following everything jesus preached, is spitting in his face. You don't have that much of a commitment if you can't do this.[/QUOTE]

I agree, it is faith that is required and not ritual. However, it is much more then a mere philosophy. Until you have experienced being born again and given a new life you will never understand it. It is about relationship not religion. Being forgiven for all your sins is an incredible experience.

Some people laugh at the idea of knowing God but I tell you I was once an athiest at best. Not that I cared one way or the other about religion or theology or philosophy. I was a lost and wayward spirit going from one bad thing to the next.

At this point, from all that I've experienced in the changes of my life, after He picked me up, dusted me off and set me back on my feet - I know that I know that I know that God exists and He sent His Son as a perfect sacrifice for all the sins of all mankind. That is what I pin my hope and faith on.

What does any of that mean to you who reads this? Nothing today I'm sure but, do not forget it because it is your way out when you need it the most.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

I agree, it is faith that is required and not ritual. However, it is much more then a mere philosophy. Until you have experienced being born again and given a new life you will never understand it. It is about relationship not religion. Being forgiven for all your sins is an incredible experience.

Some people laugh at the idea of knowing God but I tell you I was once an athiest at best. Not that I cared one way or the other about religion or theology or philosophy. I was a lost and wayward spirit going from one bad thing to the next.

At this point, from all that I've experienced in the changes of my life, after He picked me up, dusted me off and set me back on my feet - I know that I know that I know that God exists and He sent His Son as a perfect sacrifice for all the sins of all mankind. That is what I pin my hope and faith on.

What does any of that mean to you who reads this? Nothing today I'm sure but, do not forget it because it is your way out when you need it the most.



Very good!!

Ok god/jesus fix my life.

*waits a few seconds*

evreything still fuxored.

Our fathers were our models for god, if our fathers failed - what does this tell us about god? -fightclub...

the only thing that matters in life is pleasure/fun.

100% CHAOS--{A}--

If you didn't make mistakes, you wouldn't need to look to Jesus, you would be Jesus.

I don't believe it's a matter of faith. I believe god is a matter of math, a universal equation that dictates the universe through balance. God is merely a set of rules that the universe must fuction along. I see my actions as unbalancing, and balancing. No matter what we do, the scales are in a countinous state of balancing. See, god is perfect, and understandable, but not by everyone. The equation that I would consider to be the force of god couldn't be comprehended by our most advanced computer. Some parts of the equation are simple and even a child could understand, but the correlation of other things aren't so clear. To make it simple, tip the scales and create chaos. The thing to remember is that we can tip the scales but they'll always balance. The balance is almost always bad though.

The ironic part is that religion itself is unbalancing, but it doens't have to be part of the equation. Giving power to a small group of people, will result in them losing it everytime. Throughout human history it's been system after system of concentrating power, and redispersing power. Every redispersment usually coincides with death, famine, and war. I know that we could end this cycle by simply refusing to give away our power, but people don't realize this was even the problem.

As a firm believer in achieving heaven through balance, I intend to collapse the system that allows for inbalance to this extreme. I might sound arrogant, but this is within my means during my lifetime. I'm simply going to wait for a redispersment to happen. I'm setting myself up to be invulnerable to the next system collapse. People will simply see my wisdom in action, and ask how they can do the same. I will develope community respect from my actions and will use this respect to gain government control. From there i'll impliment special new fair trade rules for business, aswell as ammend the Charter of rights and freedoms, to destroy all laws based on ideals and beliefs for society. Laws will only be allowed to created out of necessity. I will then use the commodities necessary to other countries to strongarm every other country in the world to do the same, or we simply won't trade with them.

If people decide not to follow me, whatever, i'll just switch up the plan and be a super wealthy person that can simply seclude myself like every other rich person.

How can you look at jesus? Did they dig up the corpse?

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

How can you look at jesus? Did they dig up the corpse?



Through the minds eye He can be seen and with a still humbled spirit you might hear his silent voice brush your heart.

It is all about the spirit and until that is understood He will remain hidden from the heart and mind.

If you are unaware of your spirit man then you have never seen Jesus. When He wakes you from spiritual death then you will know.



[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 11-03-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

Ok god/jesus fix my life.

*waits a few seconds*

evreything still fuxored.

Our fathers were our models for god, if our fathers failed - what does this tell us about god? -fightclub...

the only thing that matters in life is pleasure/fun.

100% CHAOS--{A}--

You still don't understand God. We are all destined for the grave. you, me, all living things and even time itself. All carnal things are born only to die even the universe has an end when time runs out. Yet, we are given a mind to understand eternity. A place with no time and has no measure of substance or form.

I'm talking about the spiritual realms that are so elusive to you by the testimony of your own words. If you knew love, hate, anger, jealousy, freedom as they truley are then you would begin to understand they are of the spirit.

What I'm talking about is a different place then this world, which is only a dungeon for our souls. You are still bound up, blinded and deafened by it's chains.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

I respect your right to personal spirituality.

However I'd like to add something

Christians comit pride when they say their religion is better then everyone elses.

It's not that Christians believe their beliefs are better than anyone else's. Christians believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. It's not a matter of pride, but rather a matter of record. If I say to you 1 + 1 = 2, that isn't up for debate... It is what it is. A Christian believes that Jesus is the only way to find life eternal. In the same way that only 1 + 1 = 2, and no other, so also it is with the Living God. In an equation, there is only one right answer. So, we could argue whether that violates some sort of 'intolerance', but the truth is that the truth. And truth is always narrow, not narrow-minded. It's not a matter of pride... Does that make sense?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



It's not that Christians believe their beliefs are better than anyone else's. Christians believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. It's not a matter of pride, but rather a matter of record. If I say to you 1 + 1 = 2, that isn't up for debate... It is what it is. A Christian believes that Jesus is the only way to find life eternal. In the same way that only 1 + 1 = 2, and no other, so also it is with the Living God. In an equation, there is only one right answer. So, we could argue whether that violates some sort of 'intolerance', but the truth is that the truth. And truth is always narrow, not narrow-minded. It's not a matter of pride... Does that make sense?

Don't talk about math. 0+2=2 as well. x^2=9 has two answers. I agree with what you're saying though. Asking a Christian to stop taking the Bible as truth is an asinine request.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Don't talk about math. 0+2=2 as well. x^2=9 has two answers. I agree with what you're saying though. Asking a Christian to stop taking the Bible as truth is an asinine request.

0 is not even a number, but rather a lack of one. The only possible way you can reach the number 2 is by 1 + 1. Even through multiplication, because it's simply an extrpolation of addition. You have to have something in order to have something else. Even subtracting the difference would reach the same outcome. But that is neither here, nor there. We can play the semantics game all day long if we wish, but the premise that she is trying to get across is that truth is absolute. Truth is not objective, but subjective.

Christians are blind, not all, but most, they barely realize that christiantity is not the only religion and they may be wrong, they are the first to stereotype, plus every one knows Jesus was metal.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

0 is not even a number, but rather a lack of one. The only possible way you can reach the number 2 is by 1 + 1. Even through multiplication, because it's simply an extrpolation of addition. You have to have something in order to have something else. Even subtracting the difference would reach the same outcome. But that is neither here, nor there. We can play the semantics game all day long if we wish, but the premise that she is trying to get across is that truth is absolute. Truth is not objective, but subjective.



0 is a real number, but thats irrelevant. I was just being kind of a dick. And I would argue that there is objective truth. A proton has the same mass here, or in another galaxy. There are certain properties of hydrogen that are consider so basic that we use them to attempt to communicate to aliens.

But I agree that there is no objective truth for shit involving humans.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I didn't say my religion, I said MY GOD.

Jesus, My Lord, My God!

fai1safe, It was purchased at the cross, and given freely, to anyone and everyone, who wants it. Proof of this love? It's called the Holy Bible, KJV, or AMPLIFIED. I use them both. Being that the inspired Word of God is the only truth, that's proof enough.

Crazed_Hamster, Nah. Just peculiar. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

1. Your GOD is the same god as every other christian, why make denominations?

2. PURCHASED at the cross, yet given FREELY, I have to pay for something free?

3. I don't know what the differences are of the bibles, what are they? is amplified in all capitals?

4. Isn't the bible technically imperfect, seeing as how humans wrote it. For all we know Jesus could have been a woman.

If a fetus is a person, why does it look like a steamed prawn?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I tell you what Elfstone, Keep looking for love in THIS WORLD, from Humans. When you find it, Let me know. TRUTH is You never will. You want a perfect love, everyone does, I have that perfect love, and you hate me for it? The Holy presence of GOD is A BILLION TIMES OVER, BETTER THAN SEX, ever can or will be. I'd rather be in God's presence than be in the presence of a naked man with an erection. I'm not into temporary things, but rather, things that last forever. The joy, peace, love, God gives, never ends, EVER. I wish for EACH OF YOU to experience God like I have. Just a little fragment of how I have, and you'd love him the same, you'd understand his love.



Ok..... now you are creeping me out. You recieve the unofficial stamp of the Crazy Christian, I will find god, if there truly is a god, and his love my own way.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphxWe can play the semantics game all day long if we wish, but the premise that she is trying to get across is that truth is absolute. Truth is not objective, but subjective.

Truth is be definition both objective and absolute.

It cannot be absolute if it is subjective.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 11-03-2005).]

on a different note, why should lifes pleasures be labelled sins? I'd rather die happy and go to church once a year than die unhappy, going to church every weak then finding out I'm still going to hell.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Truth is be definition both objective and absolute.

It cannot be absolute if it is subjective.



Truth is subjective to the one who holds it and establishes it, which is the Almighty. Truth isn't a matter of relativity. If it was, then it would cease to be truth. The very definition of truth is indicative that it is absolute. It's true that humans try to assign value to things, but it doesn't negate whether or not it be good/bad/indifferent.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Truth is subjective to the one who holds it and establishes it, which is the Almighty. Truth isn't a matter of relativity. If it was, then it would cease to be truth. The very definition of truth is indicative that it is absolute. It's true that humans try to assign value to things, but it doesn't negate whether or not it be good/bad/indifferent.





By you saying that truth "isn't a matter of relativity" you're saying that it is objective!

It seems that you are confusing the words "subjective" with "objective":

Objective:

" Based on observable phenomena; presented factually."

Subjective:

"Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision."

--The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Truth is by definition objective because it does not depend on what a person thinks or opines, it depends on the "external world" (to quote the dictionary).

quote:Originally posted by Rust:



By you saying that truth "isn't a matter of relativity" you're saying that it is objective!

It seems that you are confusing the words "subjective" with "objective":

Objective:

" Based on observable phenomena; presented factually."

Subjective:

"Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision."

--The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Truth is by definition objective because it does not depend on what a person thinks or opines, it depends on the "external world" (to quote the dictionary).

Yes, I confused the two. What that meant was that we all are subject to natural laws as they are absolute. If they are absolute then we have to give consideration to what mandates these laws. But does that mean you believe that truth is not a matter of opinion or not? This is an important question for everyone to answer, irrespective of personal preferance.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

If you're so close with God, and he lives within you and dwells in your head and all that, why do you care what other mere humans think about you?

You seem really concerned with that. The other human beings aren't going to ultimately judge you in the "end". So God loves you. If you're so ecstatic about it, why preoccupy your mind with what others think? It would seem like something as blissful and enrapturing as you describe would kind of make everyday misunderstandings seem meaningless.

You should pray to your Source to bestow upon you a healthy dose of passivity and tolerance of others who may or may not understand your fixation with God. See if it works.



Won't work. Their God told them to go into all the world and preach theGospel to every creature. Pretty fucking difficult, preaching to a grasshopper.

That's why religion has survived so long, because it's a successful replicator. The main vein of that particular meme guarantees it's longevity, just by having that requirement of it's host to "spread the word".

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have found the true weapon of mass destruction: Christians.

as a freaking amzing movie Dogma once told us Religion is better as an Idea, not a belief.

Instead of Tanks and missles we should send missionaries to the war. they will beat people with crosses in the name of god, as god hits himself comicaly in heaven saying "Where did I go wrong?"

I assume that after all the pain you've been through, HellzShellz, that you eventually found a pastor or a parent or whatever who shared something real comforting with you, namely the existence of a God who really loves you, and just wants you to be happy, etc. I'm sure it sounds nice and all, but think without the emotions and the heartache. Is it at all feasible for Jesus to be hovering above, around, and inside you and all that jazz? Some guy back there said that the feeling of accepting Jesus into your heart is uncomparable, or whatever. I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was 6, 10, and 12, I felt no difference. I really tried hard to believe, but it DID NOT work. In my believing days, you have no idea how passionate I was about being a Christian. If Jesus had said jump off the building, I'd've jumped. But the thing is Jesus never said that, as a matter of fact, Jesus never said anything. Jesus never did a goddamn thing while I believed in him. No matter what the fuck I did, Jesus did nothing. I'm not telling you this because I really need attention, more because I have friends who have acted the same way you have, they're all in various looney cults right now. I'm asking you to please just give up on it. There is more to life than obeying an old book, and a fictional God. No, I'm not the Devil tempting you, I'm a fellow human, who cares that you're gonna end up wasting your life only to find that it meant nothing to you or your God. Live for yourself, your God will do jackshit for you. Please.

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

If a fetus is a person, why does it look like a steamed prawn?

That would be a zygote.

You abortionist's really need to do your homework. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Stop trying to derail this thread with your ignorance.

quote:Originally posted by -ScreamingElectron-:

on a different note, why should lifes pleasures be labelled sins? I'd rather die happy and go to church once a year than die unhappy, going to church every weak then finding out I'm still going to hell.

The flesh enjoys sin. Sin is easy. That's the point.

The way to God is narrow, and dying to the flesh (and to sin) is what He asks of us.

If we are more concerned with pleasing our flesh than we are of pleasing Him, why should we deserve a piece of real estate in heaven ? (that was a joke, so calm down, people)

How are we to be considered any different from those that choose themselves over Him ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The flesh enjoys sin. Sin is easy. That's the point.

The way to God is narrow, and dying to the flesh (and to sin) is what He asks of us.

If we are more concerned with pleasing our flesh than we are of pleasing Him, why should we deserve a piece of real estate in heaven ? (that was a joke, so calm down, people)

How are we to be considered any different from those that choose themselves over Him ?

Do you, uh, come here often. *wink, wink*

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The way to God is narrow, and dying to the flesh (and to sin) is what He asks of us.





It's pretty interesting to think that when we vibrate our consciousness to the next level we have to lose our physical bodies of flesh and blood.

To the one above about the zygote predicament. Supposedly anyone re-entering a human body for further incarnation and thus spiritual developement, first must go through the death process as described in buddist/tibetan book of the dead link below, and then must choose a womb to enter, and supposedly that is the exact point where a zygote or group cell becomes an actual human being.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/buddhism01.html

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

That would be a zygote.

You abortionist's really need to do your homework. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Stop trying to derail this thread with your ignorance.

WRONG!

A zygote is the diploid formed from two haploids, in humans the sperm and egg (thank you wikipedia http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)). The shrivelled-prawn stage is the embryo.

Stop trying to derail this thread with your ignorance http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif).

Actually, the fetus only comes out because it gets too big to bear - humans haven't even properly developed their motor functions or anything until, well I think they have basic functionality by about 18 months, but it could be before that, I don't have a very good memory.

It's unlikely that they're capable of conscious thought before they do, anyway (so it's probably less than 18 months, maybe it's 8?).

So logically we should be able to abort up until this time... but the mother would be traumatised and, it just seems wrong.

Human young attain sentience between the ages of two and three. Before that, they cannot distinguish between themselves and the world. theyt aren't a person.

And DS, by that logic, why not become a Buddhist, and actually attempt to trancend your bag of meat?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

That would be a zygote.

You abortionist's really need to do your homework. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Stop trying to derail this thread with your ignorance.

You widdlin', taint-tonguing, scuzzy culchie.

And a zygote is not sentient, nor does it have a soul. Yea thats right, biatch its nothing.

quote:Originally posted by sp0rkius:

WRONG!

A zygote is the diploid formed from two haploids, in humans the sperm and egg (thank you wikipedia http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)). The shrivelled-prawn stage is the embryo.

Stop trying to derail this thread with your ignorance http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif).

Actually, the fetus only comes out because it gets too big to bear - humans haven't even properly developed their motor functions or anything until, well I think they have basic functionality by about 18 months, but it could be before that, I don't have a very good memory.

It's unlikely that they're capable of conscious thought before they do, anyway (so it's probably less than 18 months, maybe it's 8?).

So logically we should be able to abort up until this time... but the mother would be traumatised and, it just seems wrong.

Oh, so now a baby, isn't even considered human until way after he/she is born, because of their motor skills....??? You do realize that the average human pregnancy lasts 9 months, don't you? Maybe we should take it a step further by aborting teenagers, in which case, you're screwed. Even supposing you did mean 8 months, the fact that you don't even know what your talking about completely disqualifies you as some sort of self-imposed authority. This typifies many arguments in here. This is what most pro-lifers would come to expect. We just didn't think you would have handed it over on a silver platter.

But, yes..... This is getting off topic. My apologies for following suit, but your statement was so ignorant that it simply must have a retort.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Human young attain sentience between the ages of two and three. Before that, they cannot distinguish between themselves and the world. theyt aren't a person.

And DS, by that logic, why not become a Buddhist, and actually attempt to trancend your bag of meat?

Um, Wrong. The 'ID' they communicate by crying. They want a bottle, they cry. They pooped their diaper, they cry. They really peed their diaper, they cry. All they know is what THEY want. Not the world around them, but THEMSELVES. Maybe you should look into psychology?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Oh, so now a baby, isn't even considered human until way after he/she is born, because of their motor skills....??? You do realize that the average human pregnancy lasts 9 months, don't you? Maybe we should take it a step further by aborting teenagers, in which case, you're screwed. Even supposing you did mean 8 months, the fact that you don't even know what your talking about completely disqualifies you as some sort of self-imposed authority. This typifies many arguments in here. This is what most pro-lifers would come to expect. We just didn't think you would have handed it over on a silver platter.



Oh jeez, what a mess. This paragraph doesn't even contain a single counter argument. I can only find one sentence that's relevant to the point. Let me help you out, since you seem to be sort of gasping for air here.

The original argument was that for the 8-18 months after a baby is born, it is still not a fully developed human, and thus it shouldn't be given the same "right to life" as fully developed humans have over other animals.

Possible counter arguments:

~Humans are not defined by sentience, but by being a baby/fetus/zygote

~Humans are, in fact, sentient upon their removal from the womb

~While babies/fetuses/zygotes may not be human, they have "human potential" and thus should be given the same rights as humans

~All living things/animals have no right to be killed

~While fetuses may be aborted because they are "feeding" off of their mother's body, babies can be put under separate care, and their lives should not be allowed to be forfeited since they cannot consent

Some of these arguments are better than others, but preferably it should be an argument you actually believe in. However, most importantly, your argument should contain EVIDENCE. The more pieces of evidence from the most credible sources will help you out the most. It is a good idea to list the evidence in climactic order to finish your argument on a strong note.

Now, logical fallacies, of which I noticed several:

~Maybe we should take it a step further by aborting teenagers, in which case, you're screwed.

This is called "slippery slope." A slippery slope is defined as the illegitimate use of an "if-then" operator. In this case, the original argument had to do with sentience; making the assumption that supporting the abortion of babies on this premise leads to supporting the abortion of teenagers is completely rediculous. Try to avoid slippery slope in formal arguments, as it can often sound immature and and usually serves only to demonize the opponent.

~the fact that you don't even know what your talking about completely disqualifies you as some sort of self-imposed authority.

This is a logical fallacy in that you assume the amount of months after birth is a crucial element in your opponent's argument. This is a distraction of the point, as the point being stressed was the absence of sentience when a baby is born, not the exact time when this ability is gained. You then claim that the opponent has no idea what he is talking about, which once again distracts the point, as you should be able to at least address his argument if this is, in fact, the case.

Your attack on him for making himself a "self-imposed authority" is also weak in this regard, as it is irrelevant to his arguement, and in addition not backed up with evidence. One could accuse him of this for claiming that sentience defines humanity, but you do not cite this, you connect it with his memory of an exact number which does not affect his point.

~This typifies many arguments in here. This is what most pro-lifers would come to expect.

This is a hasty generalization, used in order to group every possible "pro-choice" argument as similar to your opponent's. Once again, due to your circumlocution of the topic at hand, it comes seemingly from nowhere, and lacks brevity in this respect. The absence of evidence is once again telling, and you come off as attempting to start a fight rather than peacably settling your difference in opinion.

I won't attempt to make sense of your "silver platter" comment. In any case, I'd advise you to check out this (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm) list of logical fallacies, and perhaps a good website on basic logic. Remember to practice finding your opponent's main point. Good luck on your future debates, and don't forget: EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE!

HellzShellz: I'm not sure what "ID" is. Also, what you described was not sentience, all animals can suffer and poop and pee, and they do not enjoy the same rights as a baby.

[This message has been edited by Shadout Mapes (edited 11-06-2005).]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Ok... We'll stick with the topic. I have two children and have watched them grow from the time of their conception. I can assure you with the utmost sincerity that they are very much sentient. Do you have children? Do you know anyone that has children? Or are you, yourself a child? That isn't an attack. (there are countless teenie boppers in Totse that present a dialogue about as informing as Teen Beat magazine.) Aside from the obvious, a dog is sentient. What does sentience have to do with being allowed to live? Since when did sentience become a deterministic qualifier to the right to live?

How about this... Go get a job as an ED tech in a hospital or at a neo-natal department. Examine the children for sentience... Once you're done with that, get another job at an abortion clinic and watch the techniques. Your job could be the one were the nurse has to peice the dimembered body of a baby to ensure that no parts are left inside the mother that might putrify and cause infection. Then tell me what your stance is. As of now, it is convoluted, replete with sadism. Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Um, Wrong. The 'ID' they communicate by crying. They want a bottle, they cry. They pooped their diaper, they cry. They really peed their diaper, they cry. All they know is what THEY want. Not the world around them, but THEMSELVES. Maybe you should look into psychology?

A cat will meow when it wants food. Does that make it a person? An instinctive need is not the same as a reasoned desire.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Oh, so now a baby, isn't even considered human until way after he/she is born, because of their motor skills....??? You do realize that the average human pregnancy lasts 9 months, don't you? Maybe we should take it a step further by aborting teenagers, in which case, you're screwed. Even supposing you did mean 8 months, the fact that you don't even know what your talking about completely disqualifies you as some sort of self-imposed authority. This typifies many arguments in here. This is what most pro-lifers would come to expect. We just didn't think you would have handed it over on a silver platter.

But, yes..... This is getting off topic. My apologies for following suit, but your statement was so ignorant that it simply must have a retort.



I'm not saying not human, I'm saying not conscious. Something with human DNA is what I'd define as human. When I said 18 months I meant 18 months after birth, which seems a bit long, I admit, so I said that may not have been it. But it is a matter of months after birth. Biologists have discussed this with me, I'm not just coming up with it to piss you off, as entertaining as it is. I didn't say I was a self-imposed authority, I was just pointing out Digital_Saviour's error about the zygote thing, then I thought I'd give the facts about when a baby really is conscious and therefore when it really would suffer if it were killed, in a hope to disarm some of the bullshit emotional attacks that surround this sort of issue.

The 'abortion of teenagers' comment shows that you missed my point entirely. I meant that from the standpoint of suffering, the baby is not conscious until a few months after birth, and so if we're arguing based on that, it's absurd to say abortion should not be done up to this time. This argument also works for the destruction of a soul, because, as the soul and the mind are classically considered to be the same thing, a baby without a conscious mind has no soul.

Also, I did say (and seemingly the good old selective reading came in again on your part) that "the mother would be traumatised and, it just seems wrong". There are human reasons not to abort babies outside the womb. Less reasonable people than ourselves would have an emotional reaction and, to be honest, so would I.

Do you have to call people 'ignorant' in order to score points? Don't say I did it, I was being ironic.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sp0rkius:

I'm not saying not human, I'm saying not conscious. Something with human DNA is what I'd define as human. When I said 18 months I meant 18 months after birth, which seems a bit long, I admit, so I said that may not have been it. But it is a matter of months after birth. Biologists have discussed this with me, I'm not just coming up with it to piss you off, as entertaining as it is. I didn't say I was a self-imposed authority, I was just pointing out Digital_Saviour's error about the zygote thing, then I thought I'd give the facts about when a baby really is conscious and therefore when it really would suffer if it were killed, in a hope to disarm some of the bullshit emotional attacks that surround this sort of issue.

Ok.. I'm telling you that I have children and I watch them very closely. I know with ALL certainty of mind, body, and soul, that they are sentient. Clearly, a baby is not as developed mentally as an adult.... but neither is a teenager or a child. And a baby can feel pain before birth. In fact, a baby can feel pain after 12 weeks of conception. Moreover, after that time, he/she does not develop anything new, they just get bigger and stronger, just like an infant/toddler/child/teenager. Even supposing they didn't, what kind of sick excuse is that? If I took your beloved dog and sedated him, then killed him, would it make any difference that I sedated him? Would I then not be charged with animal cruelty because the dog didn't 'technically' know any better? Would that exonerate me in a court of law? I should hope not. And what is a biologist going to tell me about my kids that I don't already know? And I'd be willing to bet that these 'biologists' support eugenics and biometry of all kinds. Don't you see what's going on? We are slowly being brainwashed in becoming calloused to the notion of life. Not more than 100 years ago, a black man wasn't considered human in America... How absurd is that? Not even 80 years ago, a Jew wasn't considered a human being in Germany... How absurd is that? Not even 30 years ago, EVERYONE knew damn well that a baby in the womb is a baby. And calling them zygotes and fetus' are just a way to seperate you from your humanity. So, in respect to that, someone please tell me why if someone kicks a pregnant woman in the stomach and kills the 'fetus/zygote/blob of protoplasm', why is it considered DOUBLE-homicide?...... if..... it's JUST a fetus? Do only mothers and doctors get to make that determination?

The 'abortion of teenagers' comment shows that you missed my point entirely. I meant that from the standpoint of suffering, the baby is not conscious until a few months after birth, and so if we're arguing based on that, it's absurd to say abortion should not be done up to this time. This argument also works for the destruction of a soul, because, as the soul and the mind are classically considered to be the same thing, a baby without a conscious mind has no soul.

Since when does a 'soul' mean consciousness? So if I were knocked out in a car crash, I lost my soul? And then when I come to, I regain my soul? This reasoning is flawed. A soul has nothing to do with any kind of physicality or materialism.

Do you have to call people 'ignorant' in order to score points? Don't say I did it, I was being ironic.

Being ignorant doesn't mean you're dumb. Being called ignorant, doesn't mean it's used derisively in every instance. Being ignorant, means just that.... Ignorance. I'm ignorant of many things. It just simply means that I'm not learned in that one particular area. My apologies for the offense. If you can't tell, I think infanticide is horrific and it blows me away that people are so non-challant about life. (not that it should surprise me... After all, from pre-school, on, we've been so inundated by the notion that we are nothing and that our lives mean nothing and that we're just monkeymen no more important than the methane gases in a fart.

Look, you are being very cordial with me and I am disarmed to be hostile with you personally... So, I'm sorry if my post came across with hostility... It's not you, it's the topic. Thanks for listening.

quote: And a baby can feel pain before birth.

But what is pain? My computer cries out when it overheats, but it's not sentient (though maybe if it had a face people might think it was).

quote:If I took your beloved dog and sedated him, then killed him, would it make any difference that I sedated him? Would I then not be charged with animal cruelty because the dog didn't 'technically' know any better?

People do this all the time, when the dog is ill or simply when a loving home can't be found for it. The dog doesn't even know it happened. It's sad, but it's less sad than if the dog lived in a cruel environment or died slowly and painfully. Are you getting the very very strong parallel with abortion here?

quote:Moreover, after that time, he/she does not develop anything new, they just get bigger and stronger, just like an infant/toddler/child/teenager.

They develop mentally, just like a child. Surely you must admit that children are more animalistic than adults, that adults are more 'civilized'? That's because adults use their egos more rather than their ids, their conscious minds rather than their subconsciouses. Babies don't use their consciouses at all because they are yet to develop them. Surely an embryo doesn't have a conscious, so why do you insist that it must develop in the womb? Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

quote:And what is a biologist going to tell me about my kids that I don't already know?

I don't know. I bet the doctors at the hospital told you a lot, and their theory comes from biology.

quote:So, in respect to that, someone please tell me why if someone kicks a pregnant woman in the stomach and kills the 'fetus/zygote/blob of protoplasm', why is it considered DOUBLE-homicide?...... if..... it's JUST a fetus? Do only mothers and doctors get to make that determination?

Because the mother is traumatized, and because it's a natural human reaction to find this sort of thing disturbing, just like you are right now. As I said (and part of this was a quote from me earlier too, so I've said this three times now): "Also, I did say (and seemingly the good old selective reading came in again on your part) that 'the mother would be traumatised and, it just seems wrong'. There are human reasons not to abort babies outside the womb [ie human emotions must be taken into account because it's hardwired into our brains and we won't be able to stop people being pissed off at this]. Less reasonable people than ourselves would have an emotional reaction and, to be honest, so would I."

quote:Since when does a 'soul' mean consciousness? So if I were knocked out in a car crash, I lost my soul? And then when I come to, I regain my soul? This reasoning is flawed. A soul has nothing to do with any kind of physicality or materialism.

Actually, that's a very good point. I've been at a loss to define the 'soul' for a long time. It's certain that a few philosophers equate it with the mind, so I just went with that because I didn't really need to define it. I guess I since I don't actually believe in it I can only go on other people's definitions when they give them to me. I doubt it has occured to a lot of theists what they're really talking about when they use the word 'soul' anyway.

quote:Being ignorant doesn't mean you're dumb. Being called ignorant, doesn't mean it's used derisively in every instance. Being ignorant, means just that.... Ignorance. I'm ignorant of many things. It just simply means that I'm not learned in that one particular area.

Heh, true, sorry.

quote:If you can't tell, I think infanticide is horrific and it blows me away that people are so non-challant about life.

Well, you have to factor in the probable emotional reactions of other people and how their responses will affect any action you'd hypothetically take as a result of your conclusion, and also it's fine to have your own emotions about this sort of stuff, but you have to try not to be emotive in an argument or you'll never get anywhere. That doesn't mean your overall objective shouldn't be 'reducing suffering for all concerned', it just means you should blank out the images of a big fat sweaty guy with a sword cutting babies into little peices while the parents watch in horror, because, that's silly.

i think its funny when atheists talk shit.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

i think its funny when atheists talk shit.

...

quote:Originally posted by sp0rkius:

...

oh c'mon, its hilarious. the more they insist that christians are just blindly following because their parents did, the clearer it is that they themselves are atheists as rebellion against their parents.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

oh c'mon, its hilarious. the more they insist that christians are just blindly following because their parents did, the clearer it is that they themselves are atheists as rebellion against their parents.

Or because psychology suggests that you learn and are brought up by your parents and gain many of their beliefs from this. People who's parents are liberal turn out to be liberal because their parents brought them up that way. People who are conservative are so because their parents brought them up that way. People who are Christian are Christian because... god enlightened them to be??? No, it's because their parents raised them and taught them to be. And you say Athiests are only protesting against their parents?? Then why do all the children of Athiests turn out to be Athiest as well? They weren't enlightened by god also, they followed their parents and became Athiest as well.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

oh c'mon, its hilarious. the more they insist that christians are just blindly following because their parents did, the clearer it is that they themselves are atheists as rebellion against their parents.

Keep talking, you're being even more hilarious.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Peace and love.[/B]

War and death!

Fun with numbers

1+1=2 This is the same as 1=1 or simply 1.



Complexity versus simplicity.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Merchant (edited 11-06-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

oh c'mon, its hilarious. the more they insist that christians are just blindly following because their parents did, the clearer it is that they themselves are atheists as rebellion against their parents.

LOL! Well said....

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

Or because psychology suggests that you learn and are brought up by your parents and gain many of their beliefs from this. People who's parents are liberal turn out to be liberal because their parents brought them up that way. People who are conservative are so because their parents brought them up that way. People who are Christian are Christian because... god enlightened them to be??? No, it's because their parents raised them and taught them to be. And you say Athiests are only protesting against their parents?? Then why do all the children of Athiests turn out to be Athiest as well? They weren't enlightened by god also, they followed their parents and became Athiest as well.



So are you telling us that your parents are atheist liberals?

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

War and death!

War and peace.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

oh c'mon, its hilarious. the more they insist that christians are just blindly following because their parents did, the clearer it is that they themselves are atheists as rebellion against their parents.

So one group follows blindly and the other openly rebels. Which group would you rather be a part of? If you don't think rebellion is a key component in anyone's mental development in any part of their life, I'd wonder how you'd expect humanity to get anything done. Granted, coffee-house athiests (those who rebel in order to conform) are repulsive things, who are practically fundamentalists in their own right, but those who rebel against the teachings they've been indoctrined with are the strongest types humanity has.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

oh c'mon, its hilarious. the more they insist that christians are just blindly following because their parents did, the clearer it is that they themselves are atheists as rebellion against their parents.

I didn't say that. I didn't even say anything that might infer that.

My parents are atheists. Their parents are atheists. I think their parents are, too. In fact, I always thought theists were a minority as I was growing up.

EDIT: oh, you're probably not talking about me anyway http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif). Sorry, egotism.

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 11-07-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by sp0rkius:

I didn't say that. I didn't even say anything that might infer that.

My parents are atheists. Their parents are atheists. I think their parents are, too. In fact, I always thought theists were a minority as I was growing up.

EDIT: oh, you're probably not talking about me anyway http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif). Sorry, egotism.



By and large, this is often the case. But, surely you know atheists with Christian parents, and Christians with atheist parents. Likewise, I'm sure you know conservatives with liberal parents, and liberals with conservative parents. This may be an exception, but it's certainly not the rule.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



Ok... We'll stick with the topic. I have two children and have watched them grow from the time of their conception. I can assure you with the utmost sincerity that they are very much sentient. Do you have children? Do you know anyone that has children? Or are you, yourself a child? That isn't an attack. (there are countless teenie boppers in Totse that present a dialogue about as informing as Teen Beat magazine.) Aside from the obvious, a dog is sentient. What does sentience have to do with being allowed to live? Since when did sentience become a deterministic qualifier to the right to live?

How about this... Go get a job as an ED tech in a hospital or at a neo-natal department. Examine the children for sentience... Once you're done with that, get another job at an abortion clinic and watch the techniques. Your job could be the one were the nurse has to peice the dimembered body of a baby to ensure that no parts are left inside the mother that might putrify and cause infection. Then tell me what your stance is. As of now, it is convoluted, replete with sadism. Thanks.

[/b][/QUOTE]

Naw I don't have that much of a blood fetish. But other than that I would preform abortions.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

A cat will meow when it wants food. Does that make it a person? An instinctive need is not the same as a reasoned desire.

Perhaps you may understand this time.

The thing that sets us apart from animals is the ability to REASON. A baby, will cry when someone is holding him/her, that isn't their own mother. They cry as to reason between who they want holding them, Daddy, or Mommy. Some weird relative with bushy hair, or Mommy. It's reason, no matter how you try to dress that. Babies have the ability to reason, therefore they exist. Babies have the ability to choose what THEY want and let others know what they want in the best way they know how to communicate.

You're trying to say, if a baby doesn't know how to speak, then a baby isn't human. WRONG. That's a question, You can't answer. "If there wasn't a language, would we be able to think." Why wouldn't we be able to? We'd find some means for communication, because unlike Animals, WE'RE able to REASON, with our other sense.

quote:Originally posted by Shadout Mapes:

So one group follows blindly and the other openly rebels. Which group would you rather be a part of? If you don't think rebellion is a key component in anyone's mental development in any part of their life, I'd wonder how you'd expect humanity to get anything done. Granted, coffee-house athiests (those who rebel in order to conform) are repulsive things, who are practically fundamentalists in their own right, but those who rebel against the teachings they've been indoctrined with are the strongest types humanity has.

I don't see how blind rebellion is favorable to blind conformity. My father and mother are atheist and apathetic respectively, and i would probably be best described as a non-denominational christian. i wasn't raised to be christian, nor did i become a christian out of rebellion toward my parents lack of faith. i made the decision based on personal expiriences and a philosphical agreement with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

i find its more important that people come to these types of conclusions as a result of honest and thoughtful seeking rather than be driven by external factors such as the impulse to "rebel against the teachings they've been indoctrined with".

Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean its wrong. nor does it mean its right.

i find it disappointing when liberal intellectuals make blanket statements like "religion is responsible for countless wars and suffering" when any other topic would require a deep study of the economic and social factors that birthed the hardships (terrorism, racial inequality, divorce, abortion, poverty, etc). its intellectually dishonest.

likewise, i find it devastating that personalities on the right such as Shawn Hannity take the name of God or Jesus to condemn whole groups of people as evil or to justify pre-emptive wars and economic programs that are contradictory to what the bible says about the subject.

there's ignorance coming from both sides.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Perhaps you may understand this time.

The thing that sets us apart from animals is the ability to REASON. A baby, will cry when someone is holding him/her, that isn't their own mother. They cry as to reason between who they want holding them, Daddy, or Mommy. Some weird relative with bushy hair, or Mommy. It's reason, no matter how you try to dress that. Babies have the ability to reason, therefore they exist. Babies have the ability to choose what THEY want and let others know what they want in the best way they know how to communicate.

You're trying to say, if a baby doesn't know how to speak, then a baby isn't human. WRONG. That's a question, You can't answer. "If there wasn't a language, would we be able to think." Why wouldn't we be able to? We'd find some means for communication, because unlike Animals, WE'RE able to REASON, with our other sense.

This is a typical answer for christians such as you. When I hold my cat, it purs. When someone else does, it hisses. So the cat must recognize me, no ? The cat must be able to reason, no ? The thing is, animals are able to reason too, it's just that their thoughts are much more primitive than ours. Thing is, humans are just animals, only with augmented brains. Don't think we are more special than other creatures. Especially because some people assume God made us the way we are now.

i find it disappointing when liberal intellectuals make blanket statements like "religion is responsible for countless wars and suffering"

This is always borderline comedy... They point to Constantine, the Trail of Tears, and George Bush as homicidal maniacs. The excuse is that invariably, all war is caused by religion.

Hmmmmm? Last time I checked Stalin, Lenin, Mao-Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Hitler, Idi Amin, etc, were all athiests.... (There goes that theory)

Jesus can't beat the shit out of you, whereas I can. I can beat the shit out of you in such a fashion, you'd wish you were born a woman, being married to me, having a round of the old domestic violence.

Christians have yet to be domesticated into civilization. Dr. Snoopy prescribes domestic violence, of the 3rd degree.

Perhaps you will understand this time.

quote:The thing that sets us apart from animals is the ability to REASON.

Thats exactly what I said.

quote:A baby, will cry when someone is holding him/her, that isn't their own mother. They cry as to reason between who they want holding them, Daddy, or Mommy. Some weird relative with bushy hair, or Mommy. It's reason, no matter how you try to dress that. Babies have the ability to reason, therefore they exist. Babies have the ability to choose what THEY want and let others know what they want in the best way they know how to communicate.

The standard test given to determine the ability to reason is to place a red mark on the subject's forehead, and then show it a mirror. A being lacking the ability to reason will paw at the mirror, or in some way indicate that they think there is another creature in front of them. A being able to reason will touch it's own forehead, understanding that the mirror is a reflection of itself. A human child is generally unable to make this distinction until it is between two and three years old.

Your example with the baby is flawed, because it doesn't show a concious ability to reason. It shows an ingrained association, the same way a pet will come running when they hear food being poured into a dish. The child associates the mother with shelter and providence. The infant's desires are not the result of reason, but rather an instinctive knowledge of necessities. Every infant mammal knows to look for a nipple.

quote:You're trying to say, if a baby doesn't know how to speak, then a baby isn't human. WRONG. That's a question, You can't answer. "If there wasn't a language, would we be able to think." Why wouldn't we be able to? We'd find some means for communication, because unlike Animals, WE'RE able to REASON, with our other sense.

No, thats not what I'm saying. A child can communicate in sign language months before it can learn to speak. As an infant however, a child is less articulant than other primates that have learned to sign. The important fact is that the infant can not yet imagine. In the same way an animal understands to abet thirst by drinking, by lapping at a pond, the infant understands that it can abet thirst by making the sign for 'juice'. It is a learned reaction to a natural impulse. The infant is incapable of devising a new method of obtaining it's needs. That comes later.

Incidentally, I've been doing alot of reading on this today (the after affects of an Adderall-aided all-nighter). I think that the mental developement of a child is much more gradual, and probably begins much earlier than I had thought, but it's still not there at birth, and likely not within the first year.

And Hitler was a Christian (http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/hitler/hitler1.htm), or at least considered himself to be. "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: *by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.*"

Neither was Idi Amin (http://www.kulanu.org/abayudaya/jjtalk.html), he was a Muslim, and according to a Christian site I found, quote:"Amin was the Moslem son of a Lugbara witchwoman, and seems to have practiced ritual cannibalism, murdering and dismembering one of his wives, eating his son's heart and keeping select human members in his refrigerator; he caused to be murdered 250,000 people, many of whom he dispatched personally."

Far-fetched, but if thats true, holy crap. He lacks the numbers but that guy would beat Hitler in quality. Anyone have any confirmation or denial?

Oh, and only an idiot would say all wars are caused by religion. Many were, and still more used religion as a justification, but that kind of a blanket statement is just foolish.