Why is the concept of faith important to religion?

It seems there has to be a disconnection between "mind" and "heart" when it comes to spirituality. Usually, your heart has to believe what your mind denies. I find this conflict disturbing.

What makes faith more important than evidence in spirituality? Wouldn't I feel closer to a God that I REALLY KNEW he was there? My free will would still give me a choice to revere him or not but why should reverence be stained by the doubt in our minds? Why should I have to put those doubts aside? It would be like giving up on half of myself. Does religion really require us to be all heart and no mind?

The only way you'll ever know he's there is by seeking him. The Amplified bible says, "Seek and keep seeking, knock and KEEP knocking." God wants you to want him, like you'd want your wife. Keep seeking, Keep knocking, and he'll open up to you.

The mind is ALWAYS, constantly, at emity AGAINST God, because it's not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans:8. However, GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN ME. God can transform you, if you seek him, and you can speak God's word to make things line up with his word, if you know his will, and you don't know his will unless you seek him. If you REALLY want to know God's there, SEEK HIM!! Seek him, and KEEP SEEKING HIM. Knock, and KEEP KNOCKING. Annoy him, that's what he wants us to do!!! To persist, after him. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God." "Seek and KEEP SEEKING, KNOCK AND KEEP KNOCKING." When you let doubt make you give up, then you didn't persist.

There's the mind, (soul) Body, (flesh), and heart, (Spirit). Two things will hold you back, doubt, and your flesh, but the spirit, can over come them both. If you REALLY want it, you're not going to stop going after it.

Why is mind at emity with God? Is he not the creator of all things?

I do seek God but he is nowhere to be found. Not even in the bible, so quoting it means nothing to me.

If doubt makes me give up it's because God failed to make the doubt disappear, failed to talk to my mind. I want God to accept mind, body and heart together. It's not a crazy request since he supposedly created all three and a wise creator wouldn't make conflicts in the parts of his creations.

And, dear Shellz, stop confusing spirituality with sexuality. Sometimes it's just perverted. Sometimes.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Why is mind at emity with God? Is he not the creator of all things?

I do seek God but he is nowhere to be found. Not even in the bible, so quoting it means nothing to me.

If doubt makes me give up it's because God failed to make the doubt disappear, failed to talk to my mind. I want God to accept mind, body and heart together. It's not a crazy request since he supposedly created all three and a wise creator wouldn't make conflicts in the parts of his creations.

And, dear Shellz, stop confusing spirituality with sexuality. Sometimes it's just perverted. Sometimes.

Well think about it, what does the mind do? It REASONS. When you begin to reason the law, you're doubting it. Elf, Then "be not conformed of this world, but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of your MIND." How do you know when your mind is transformed? When all you speak is the word of God. When and if you ever follow him, Doubt will come. When I frist began to read God's word 11, months ago as of Today, I would question it, now I read it and I'm like, "I better do that!" or, "That's AWESOME." The devil can place thoughts in your head, but it's up to your to meditate on those thoughts, or fight those thoughts with God's word. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, what did Jesus say? "IT IS WRITTEN." He fought temptation with the WORD. "IT IS WRITTEN!" Since it's written it makes it truth. "IT IS WRITTEN, MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF HIS MOUTH."

When you hear, "You can't do it." and you think, "I can't do it!" You can fight that, with, "It is written, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

Again God is better than sex. It isn't perverted for me to want God, more than I would want a man. Oh my goodness, I really desire God. I want him, not to please my flesh, but to FILL MY SPIRIT. I want him, and he wants me. The flesh it what peverts it, the spirit is what purifys it.



Seed is sown. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)





[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-01-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Well think about it, what does the mind do? It REASONS. When you begin to reason the law, you're doubting it.

So? Reason leads to the truth. Reason is dangerous only to those who have something to hide and are false.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Elf, Then "be not conformed of this world, but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of your MIND." How do you know when your mind is transformed? When all you speak is the word of God.

When you say "transformed", you actually mean brainwashed to the point of being incapable of a single thought of your own? Why would I want my mind to be "transformed", why abandon reason?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

When and if you ever follow him, Doubt will come. When I frist began to read God's word 11, months ago as of Today, I would question it, now I read it and I'm like, "I better do that!" or, "That's AWESOME." The devil can place thoughts in your head, but it's up to your to meditate on those thoughts, or fight those thoughts with God's word.

How exactly did you question it? What made you think that it's awesome? I am seriously interested.

The devil doesn't place thoughts in your head, give yourself some credit for any idea that may actually be YOURS.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

When Jesus was tempted by the devil, what did Jesus say? "IT IS WRITTEN." He fought temptation with the WORD. "IT IS WRITTEN!" Since it's written it makes it truth. "IT IS WRITTEN, MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF HIS MOUTH."

When you hear, "You can't do it." and you think, "I can't do it!" You can fight that, with, "It is written, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

You are mostly mumbling here. You can't possibly be suggesting that reason leads to temptation or to pessimism.

I seriously doubt you put much effort in "questioning" as you said, when your reasoning is limited to "it is true because it is written". And for once, use your MIND to show why we should pay attention to what Jesus did. Just saying Jesus did this, and did that means nothing. People do not take the bible for granted like you do.



quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Again God is better than sex. It isn't perverted for me to want God, more than I would want a man. Oh my goodness, I really desire God. I want him, not to please my flesh, but to FILL MY SPIRIT. I want him, and he wants me. The flesh it what peverts it, the spirit is what purifys it.

Yes, I'm sorry but it is perverted. It goes against human nature but of course human nature is evil to you. The question is why would God create us with an evil nature. Oh, no I am reasoning here, and that's evil too, right?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



Seed is sown. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



Bad seed. Terrible fruit.

The mind is a conglomeration of sensual information organized into as concise a construction of reality as our bodies can allow.

If we are attempting to interpret something that cannot be understood through those five senses, your mind will revolt against it.

The only way to interpret these realities is through the spirit - which you've misleadingly referred to as "heart," but you understand the essence therein.

Drivel.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

The mind is a conglomeration of sensual information organized into as concise a construction of reality as our bodies can allow.

If we are attempting to interpret something that cannot be understood through those five senses, your mind will revolt against it.

The only way to interpret these realities is through the spirit - which you've misleadingly referred to as "heart," but you understand the essence therein.

I know in my heart that there is a large pink elephant beneath my bed.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

The mind is a conglomeration of sensual information organized into as concise a construction of reality as our bodies can allow.

Do you have any difficulty grasping the concept of weltanschauung? Zeitgeist? A meme? Anaphora? Discourse? Dissemination? These are not visceral concepts, and yet they also exist quite independently from religious "spirit."

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Drivel.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) too true.

quote:If we are attempting to interpret something that cannot be understood through those five senses, your mind will revolt against it.



That's why my mind revolts against the existence of X-rays. Oh wait.

quote:The only way to interpret these realities is through the spirit - which you've misleadingly referred to as "heart," but you understand the essence therein.

Spirit and mind have classically been considered to be the same thing.



Shelly, you're an idiot. Really. You're spouting utter sensationalised drivel. What the fuck does "it is WRITTEN!!!!11" mean anyway? You claim that you can't understand God until you only talk about God and you become completely obsessed with him. I see no reason why that should be the case, it's just brainwashing. You're not going to understand anything better if you can't see it in the context of reality. But of course you reject reason and you reject blatant reality so I don't know how it's possible to argue with you. I just hope you're a dying breed.

God didn't create us with a terrible nature. God created us as spiritual beings with free will. What makes you think 'your thoughts' came from yourself. Reason is doubt. Would you reason mathematics? Truth isn't what you chose to believe, Truth is truth rather you acknowledge it or not. You're seriously interested, then stop being so.. carnal.. and seriously.. ponder it out. Yes, doubt, unbelief, is giving room to the Adversary.



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-05-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

God didn't create us with a terrible nature. God created us as spiritual beings with free will. What makes you think 'your thoughts' came from yourself. Reason is doubt. Would you reason mathematics? Truth isn't what you chose to believe, Truth is truth rather you acknowledge it or not. You're seriously interested, then stop being so.. carnal.. and seriously.. ponder it out. Yes, doubt, unbelief, is giving room to the Adversary.





If you can't come up with a single argument other than "I'm right because I'm right and that's the end of it", there's no point discussing with you. And ultimately there's no point for your presence in this forum. There are theologians who could pwn many atheists here and give actual reasons to defend their beliefs. Obviously, if you can't justify your beliefs to yourself, you can't justify them to others...

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:



If you can't come up with a single argument other than "I'm right because I'm right and that's the end of it", there's no point discussing with you. And ultimately there's no point for your presence in this forum. There are theologians who could pwn many atheists here and give actual reasons to defend their beliefs. Obviously, if you can't justify your beliefs to yourself, you can't justify them to others...

Dude, the bottom line is... FAITH. Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, and the EVIDENCE of things not see. Hebrews 11:1 Amplified translation... Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of things [we] hope for, being PROOF of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their REALITY [faith percieiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

How does faith come?

Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Amplified translation. So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ ( the Messiah himself).

So faith comes by ACTING on seed sown.

Faith. FAITH.

It isn't like you don't use faith. You do, everyday, you just don't use it on the things that aren't revealed to your senses. You use faith on what IS revealed to your sense.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-05-2005).]

Dear Shellz, you avoid addressing anything I say, you keep quoting scripture when you know that your fellow debater does not accept it as truth without further arguments and generally ramble by repeating a single word (faith in this case) as if you're making a point. That's borderline insanity and there's no way to discuss further in this way.

Just to show there's no hard feelings, I'll recommend the music of Saviour Machine (www.saviourmachine.com), a brilliant christian band, beautifully written lyrics (even though I don't agree with what they say!) and an extremely talented vocalist. Have fun, and take care.