So, in my community college, I am currently taking a class entitled 'Literature of the Occult' - the studies of ESP, parapsychology, UFO's, crop circles, demonology, death, consciousness, et cetera. During a lecture on shamanism, a girl in my class said she knew a man who had been inducted as a shaman in the Navajo tradition by the Navajo nation itself. Being given the name Two Ravens Howling Moon, or Raven for short, he was sent into the world to serve as a spiritual guide to those who sought it from him. She acquired permission to invite him to the class to speak about shamanism.

Being a student of various spiritual traditions, I saw this as a unique learning opportunity; how many Navajo shamans are running around suburban New Jersey? So, I decided to devote my attention and enthusiasm for the lecture, which occurred this Wednesday past.

Sixteen men sodomizing each other in a phallic conga line are less gay than the man who walked through the door that fateful Wednesday evening.

Not only was he so flamboyant that he made the Queer Eye cast look like the Corleone family (imagine Jack McFarland from Will & Grace giving you spiritual guidance), but his spiritual sentiments were absurdly modern and transparent. I quote from a notebook in which I wrote down my thoughts to silently communicate with my class neighbor:

...I want to shove [my fingers] in my eyeball listening to him rant about this absurd, Christian-apologetic-reactionary, Hot Topic/Charmed construction of neutered, impotent, pseudo-spiritual convictions as an attempt at empty psychological individuation and recognition.

...and again:

This speech comes from an amalgamated and miscegenated belief system proposing itself as 'eclectic,' but is ultimately born from a modern perspective starved of the true spiritual experience that initially necessitated religion in its traditional element, adopted for the sake of dignity and separation from the common thread with the same feverish desperation as a seven-year-old who abhors Sunday mass.

Nothing that Raven said was free of any pompousness and self-aggrandizing vanity. He claimed to have been abused, molested, and raped, having grown up a 'half-breed Native American' raised in a Jewish household in a predominantly Roman Catholic town. A recovering addict and formerly homeless beggar, he incorporated several artificial religions and belief systems (Wicca, modern moon-worshipping Druidism, visionary mythos, aura- and Tarot-reading gypsy superstitions, and the like) into his self-proclaimed 'eclectic' persona. He insists that, at two years old, he saw the ghost who was haunting his house and was not afraid. He 'correctly identified' the ghost's name as George several years later, but with no evidence of death records of anyone named George previously living in the house.

In addition to these fantastic claims, he insists that he foresaw the fall of the Twin Towers a year to the day before it happened, with utter apathy. He's apparently spoken with the Dalai Lama in a personal environment, has sent people crying on the floor with his visionary revelations, and has such an intimate knowledge with the spiritual world that he understands the psychology of the dead (indicated by his proposal that "often, the dead don't know that they're dead").

As a constant reference point to describe the effects of visions and clairvoyant episodes, he used as his spiritual references and examples - get this - Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, and Charmed. He actually said, "Has anyone ever seen the Charmed when [big-tittied cum guzzler] fell back when she received a vision? That's actually what it's like."

I don't know about you guys, but I have a rule about this type of thing: if I can walk into a department store and find your spiritual guide on a child's backpack or lunchbox... kill yourself. Seriously. Shoot the roof of your mouth at your earliest convenience. If you're curious about the course of your life, trust me: I've seen brighter futures in salmon streams and lobster tanks.

In conclusion, Raven's hour and a half speech was nothing more than the reiteration of every anti-Christian sentiment, from the atheistic punk rock movement (actually proclaimed himself an anarchist, which brought me far too close to gut-laughing than would have been acceptable) to the feminine Wicca quasi-practice, ever created in the history of mankind. What few spiritual truths he did accidentally utter were not only crippled with banality and mediocrity, but were also tainted with the perverse misinterpretations and fickle mentalities that corrupt all modern faiths with self-centered materialistic agendas and meager justifications for personal existences. Fuck both of his Two Ravens, and fuck his Howling Moon.

At the end of class, he offered to "read" anyone in the classroom who so wished it, but in a private environment, since his time in the classroom was limited. I intend to take him up on his offer at the next possible opportunity, and will record the results and details here.

Has anyone ever had an experience with a person who claimed to be a spiritual person? Is this truly what modern shamans are like? I sincerely hope someone has a more encouraging encounter than I had.

I'm just going to clap slowly.

Clicks to you. Your invectives and polemics are genuinely snigger-worthy.

Ugh. You managed to sit through all that with a fascade of politeness? The best I could have managed would have been taking a smoke break and not returning. Kudos, and comisterations.

it'd make a good video game

Hehehe, it would, wouldn't it?

Down, down-forward, forward, Punch: Tyrant throws a spear into Raven's solar plexus.

Forward, down, down-forward, Punch: Tyrant grabs Raven's liver through his skin and throws him into the ceiling.

Down, down-back, back, Kick: Tyrant take a pair of lead golf cleats and punctures Raven's choad in a vertical high kick.

FATALITY

Forward, forward, back, forward, Block + High Kick: Tyrant breaks Raven's rib cage and ties his lungs around the back of his spine.

Tyrant wins... FATALITY!

So, no takers, eh?

I can't say that I've ever met someone that I truly believe was plugged into the greater subsconscious something-or-other - but then again, I don't support such a concept (far too Jungian for me). My idea of spirituality is nothing but taking a great, indefatigable, untrammelled delight in your own existence, and nothing more.

Hahaha should have called him a fag and taco-bombed him.

I don't think it would be a good idea to meet that guy in a private environment... unless you're into taking small woodland animals into your rectum that is.

What button combination do you press to high-kick his head off, mortal combat style?

Yeah but you should definately throw a spear through his sternum. I hate fluffy neo-pagans like this guy. He's unremarkable though.(somebody must have a cloning machine).

I find your comments slightly over-elaborate in word choice, but on the whole that was an interesting and delicious read. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Has anyone ever had an experience with a person who claimed to be a spiritual person?

Yes, several. Even if few, if any, used that particular term for it.

quote:Is this truly what modern shamans are like?

Far too many are "shamans", rather than Shamans. Far too many, of the former, "belong" to the (more than 100 years old) New Age "movement"...

Your lecturer seems, from your description, to belong to that, latter, kind.

Shamanism has been adopted -- or hi-jacked, rather -- by New Age, and distorted into a belief system; which it is not!

For those really interested I would suggest a couple of books:

Shamanism by Mircea Eliade.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691017794/002-6885050-4521611?v=glance

A 630 pages book, that, according to the author is a "mere overview", or, as described by a reviewer on Amazon:

"I didn't keep count of how many times during this survey Eliade says he's just touching on the very surface of the scholarship of a given topic, or that in the limited space provided, he can only manage the barest mention of something. Eliade's "few comments" (p. 511) and fifty plus pages of bibliography, if he is to be believed, are a quick overview on shamanism as it has been practiced for the past two and a half millenia, covering six of the seven continents and thousands of years."

Another good and reliable source is:

The Way of the Shaman by Michael Harner.

http://www .amazon.co m/exec/obi dos/tg/det ail/-/0062 503731/ref =pd_sim_bo oks_1/002- 6885050-4521611?v=glance&s=books

A more substantial read on the internet is Deoxy's presentation of Shamanism (http://www.deoxy.org/shaman.htm), even if it is slightly flawed by a language and terminology that, in its distortion of facts, reeks of New Age...

...such as:

"Shamanic ecstasy is the real 'Old Time Religion' of which modern churches are but pallid evocations."

What Mircea Eliade (in his book, above) concludes, is that Shamanism is the foundation for all spiritual traditions, religions included. But that does not make Shamanism a religion of its own.

Deoxy also puts a lot of emphasis on drugs, used by Shamans, but it should be noted that it is only in some 10% of the cultures, that Shamans use so called psychedelic drugs to "induce trance".

In a vast majority of the cultures it is done by drumming, or similar, "meditative" means.

FoxLeonard



[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-09-2005).]

Sorry about the broken links in my post above. You can still copy and paste, and delete the spaces, that showed up from nowhere...

FoxLeonard

Ha! Excellent post, Fox.

I assume you're the same entity as on LIA?

I wonder what those boys would have to say about this...

PS: Wasn't Mircea Eliade a contemporary of Evola and Guenon?

[This message has been edited by Tyrant (edited 11-09-2005).]

According to a friend of mine who is 100% Native American, the Shaman is the worst job ever. As she puts it,

"You have to spritually die and come back to the body in your new state of mind. Then you devote your life to understanding that you've seen and gone through. To have this devotion, the Shaman would move away from the community into a little shack on the outskirts and live there in isolation forever. People would then come to you and ask for help, and many would come by to give food, clothes, water...."

So basically a Shaman would be the town nut who just happens to give good advice. It seems like a profession one would not want to go into, which is the reason Shamans are supposedly choosen. You can't really wake up one day and want to be a Shaman, its supposed to come inside of you.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Ha! Excellent post, Fox.

Thanks! But I'm actually just repeating myself (see below).

quote:I assume you're the same entity as on LIA?

Yep! I was thinking the same about you, but I thought that I might as well "double post" here, despite the fact that you actually can read it there...

quote:I wonder what those boys would have to say about this...

The easiest way to (not really) find out, is to read the topic "Shamanism"...

...or continue the discussion here, of course. Not that you thereby will learn what they think...

quote:PS: Wasn't Mircea Eliade a contemporary of Evola and Guenon?

Contemporary, yes, and even a friend of Evola. But that does not mean that they were in agreement, about much, if anything at all...

FoxLeonard

I have done shamanic work for around twenty years, taught a course on it at Western New Mexico University, published a newsletter on the subject for about ten years, so I know a few things about the subject.

For one thing, shamanism is NOT a religion, unless you are talking about the Chukchee Tribe of Siberia. Shamanism is just one of many spiritual healing modalities and is distinguished by the fact that the practitioner works in an altered state of consciousness. This state can be attained in any one of a number of ways including drugs, ecstatic dancing, chanting, meditation, and sonic driving.

As far as I now, the Navaho (more correctly, the Dine) have no shamans per se--they have sand-painters and singers and hand-tremblers and herbalists, but nothing that really fits a strict definition of shaman.

BTW, Michael Harner is the real deal, but is a tad culture-bound in his own practice, since he studied among the Jivaro. He started the Foundation for Shamanic Studies, and the tapes and CDs they produce are among the best in terms of sonic driving.

[This message has been edited by ArmsMerchant (edited 11-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

I find your comments slightly over-elaborate in word choice, but on the whole that was an interesting and delicious read. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

If a bit difficult to digest, I daresay.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

For one thing, shamanism is NOT a religion, unless you are talking about the Chukchee Tribe of Siberia.

And even about them it would probably be more correct to call their (original) "religion" -- system of belief --

(a form of) Animism, and the techniques for healing etc. Shamanism (in the sense that Eliade adopted and used the Tungus term Saman**).

quote:As far as I now, the Navaho (more correctly, the Dine) have no shamans per se

And as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), that is as true about a majority of North American Native tribes, now as well as in the past.

I do, however, believe that the New Age distortion of facts, means that the term Shaman is overused, also by those who know better. Perhaps an additional reason can be that it may "sound better" than Medicine Man and similar...

**It's a trifle more complicated than that, though:

The word shaman originated in Manchú-Tangu and has reached the ethnologic vocabulary through Tungus (and Eliade). The word originated from saman (xaman), derived from the verb scha-, "to know", so shaman means someone who knows, someone wise; a sage, if you like. A definition that, in all essentials, is as true today.

Further etymologic and ethnologic investigations show that the actual origin for the word shaman is to be found in Sanskrit, initially, then it went through Chinese-Buddhist mediation (no, not meditation) to the Manchú-Tangu, indicating a now most often overlooked connection between early Buddhism and Shamanism. In Pali it is schamana, in Sanskrit sramana translated to something like "Buddhist monk, ascetic". The intermediate Chinese term is scha-men (which has little, but some, to do with The Shamen, from Manchester...).

FoxLeonard



[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-09-2005).]

http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

My intellectual ego stands thoroughly humbled.

quote:Originally posted by land195:

"You have to spritually die and come back to the body in your new state of mind.

It is very common that Shamans start their "career" -- or get the "calling", if you prefer -- through a period of illness, and/or a near death experience (or similar).

A parallel* to many, more or less well known, incidents -- and accidents -- that have changed the (spiritual) paths of "ordinary westerners". Some have written books about it, while others have "developed" into "Spiritual Teachers".

*I call it a parallel, rather than the same thing, as very few -- of those known -- have become Shamans (or even something similar). But then again, perhaps they would have, in another time and/or another society.

A qualified further speculation is that the Shamanic "revelation" has got equal parallels to Enlightenment, be it Buddhist or other (by definition, I mean).

quote:So basically a Shaman would be the town nut who just happens to give good advice.

Almost LMTO-ed there!

But jokes aside, you've made one simplification too many...

Someone who actually posseses the knowledge (of whatever kind), cannot possibly be correctly described as someone...

quote:who just happens to give good advice.

Not to mention that many -- but far from all -- "actual" Shamans are much more than advisors. They are also healers, for example.

It should also be noted that a Shaman will not be "used" by his tribe (or similar), unless he is successful.

quote:It seems like a profession one would not want to go into, which is the reason Shamans are supposedly choosen.

Erm, I guess I know what you meant, but even if so, I must in the end disagree.

The reason that a Shaman is "choosen", or "called" is that the Spirits choose to call him (which is a simplification in itself, of course). That does, however, not contradict the fact that it is possible to successfully study Shamanic techniques (without the calling)...

quote:You can't really wake up one day and want to be a Shaman, its supposed to come inside of you.

In which case you will want to become a Shaman, of course...

FoxLeonard

quote:Originally posted by FoxLeonard:

quote:

--------------------------------------------

As far as I now, the Navaho (more correctly, the Dine) have no shamans per se

--------------------------------------------

And as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), that is as true about a majority of North American Native tribes, now as well as in the past.



And as far as I know, shamanism was originally understood to be particular to Siberia.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

And as far as I know, shamanism was originally understood to be particular to Siberia.

Which is what ArmsMerchant and I say above, or mention in passing at least...

However, what Mircea Eliade (see my post posted 11-09-2005 05:26) did, was to show that the principles (in lack of a better term) and the main techniques, used by Samans in the Tungus tribes (that's the Siberians) have similarities all over the world. And similarities to such an extent, that Eliade saw it reasonable to adopt the term, to describe the whole phenomenon.

To quote Mr Eliade himself, from the foreword to his book Shamanism:

"Shamanism in the strict sense is pre-eminently a religious phenomenon of Siberia and Central Asia. The word comes to us, through the Russian, from the Tungusic Saman.

...//... the shaman, and he alone, is the great master of ecstasy. A first definition of this complex phenomenon, and perhaps the least hazardous, will be: shamanism = technique of ecstasy."

To me the term ecstasy is "hazardous" in itself, as it, in everyday language, hints at "euphoria" and similar states of mind, more or less out of control, while the Shaman is in control (like a pilot in a plane), throughout the journey.

Trance is closer to the truth, but an equally deceptive word, which is the reason I tend to write "trance", to point out that I use it in lack of a better term.

But back to Eliade:

"...//... if we take the trouble to differentiate the shaman from other magicians and medicine men of primitive societies, the identification of shamanic complexes in one or another region immediately acquires definite significance.

Magic and magicians are to be found more or less all over the world, where as shamanism exhibits a particular magical specialty, on which we shall dwell at legth: "master over fire," "magical flight," and so on.

By virtue of this fact, though the shaman is, among other things, a magician, not every magician can properly be termed a shaman.

The same distinction must be applied in regard to shamanic healing; every medicine man is a healer, but the shaman employs a method that is his and his alone. As for the shamanic techniques of ecstasy, they do not exhaust all the varieties of ecstatic experience documented in the history of religions an religious ethnology. Hence any ecstatic cannot be considered a shaman; the shaman specializes in a trance during which his soul is believed to leave his body and ascend to the sky or descend to the underworld.

A similar distinction is also necessary to define the shaman's relation to "spirits." All through the primitive and modern worlds we find individuals who profess to maintain relations with "spirits," whether they are "possessed" by them or control them.

...//... we need only define the shaman's relation to his helping spirits. It will easily be seen wherein a shaman differs from a "possessed" person, for example; the shaman controls his "spirits," in the sense that he, a human being, is able to communicate with the dead, "demons," and "nature spirits," without thereby becoming their instrument.

Central Asian and Siberian shamanism has the advantage of presenting a structure in which elements that exist independently elsewhere in the world: i.e. special relations with "spirits", ecstatic capacities permitting of magical flight, ascents to the sky, descents to the underworld, mastery over fire, etc., are here already found integrated with a particular ideology and validating specific techniques."

So, while Shamanism in its strict sense is to be found in Central Asia and Siberia (enough of) the same Methodology is (was) to be found in cultures all over the world, with a great deal of consistency, also between different continents.

In this "applied" sense, a Shaman is someone who, in altered states of conciousness (special kinds of "trance"), journeys in non-ordinary reality and (there) communicates with Spirits.

This is done for healing purposes and to gather information of different kinds (to simplify).

For all of this the Shaman has special methods, in constant -- "try and error" -- development.

It should be noted that, when Eliade says: "the shaman specializes in a trance during which his soul is believed to leave his body...", this is correct about the people around the Shaman, but wrong about the Shaman. The Shaman knows what is happening, at least in the sense that he "goes through it for real", and makes actual use of it.

FoxLeonard *posting for real*

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-10-2005).]

Lots of good stuff here--I loved the "town nut" thing--lot of truth there. But we don't exactly "just happen" to give good advice. At the risk of sounding pretentious, sometimes the spirits speak through us. (Rocky: "Are they friendly spirits?" "Not always.")

I think shamanism or something darn close to it existed in most cultures. Thanks to the Christians, it has mostly been wiped out in Europe, however, but there may still be a few Celtic shamans running around loose.

Oh, and technically, the trance thing is the theta state of consciousness. Most New Agers who do altered-state work stay in alpha--in theta, it is easy to slip down into delta, which may be why Edgar Cayce was referred to as "the sleeping prophet."

The death-rebirth thing is also called the shamanic initiation crisis, and it is no fucking fun at all. Mine lasted a few years during the course of which I gave up an insanely high-paying job, gave away pretty much everything I couldn't pack into the back of a GMC Jimmy and moved to Alaska, after spending some time in the southwest. Today, I have less money but more happiness than I ever had before.

[This message has been edited by ArmsMerchant (edited 11-11-2005).]