This forum is probably not for me. I like to think logically, and perhaps that is the main reason why i choose to not believe in a higher power.

Honestly, i feel that my opinions have already been expressed here at some point and restating them for the purpose of argument seems rather pointless. I will say, however, that this forum will be subject to a never ending battle; neither side could really hope to beat the other side because so many of us are so closed-minded regarding this topic. I feel that it is pointless to argue, and although i feel the need to express my opinion as much as the next person, my opinion, like others, are just that: opinions.

I don't feel the need to convert anyone, and I am not sure how anyone could. I cannot fit myself into anyone else's ideology, and thus i would not expect anyone else to adopt my ideology. In conclusion, I must say that I respect all of your opinions, partially because they mostly hold the same weight as mine (we can not know until we die, period) <--or that's how I feel anyways. I don't know if i can feel more conviction on this subject, since I need facts, I need proof.

But this is my opinion again, and I am in no way trying to impose my belifs on anyone else.

Thank you for reading.

-Ryan

Edit: What do you all think about this?

[This message has been edited by mr_whackamole (edited 11-08-2005).]

Thankye, folks should be more like you, in my opinion, to end this horrid bashing and inability of folks of keeping their beliefs to themselves.

You have my support.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mr_whackamole:

This forum is probably not for me. I like to think logically, and perhaps that is the main reason why i choose to not believe in a higher power.

0 + 0 = Everything.... That's logical?

[b]I will say, however, that this forum will be subject to a never ending battle; neither side could really hope to beat the other side because so many of us are so closed-minded regarding this topic. I feel that it is pointless to argue, and although i feel the need to express my opinion as much as the next person, my opinion, like others, are just that: opinions.

Well, I can't argue with that. But, if someone is enlightened because of it, then a worthy deed has been done. Besides, we're here to have a good time as well. Whenever people share opinions, someone is bound to get offended. But if offense was to be regarded as the highest quality, humans would never speak.

I don't feel the need to convert anyone, and I am not sure how anyone could. I cannot fit myself into anyone else's ideology, and thus i would not expect anyone else to adopt my ideology. In conclusion, I must say that I respect all of your opinions, partially because they mostly hold the same weight as mine (we can not know until we die, period) <--or that's how I feel anyways. I don't know if i can feel more conviction on this subject, since I need facts, I need proof.

But this is my opinion again, and I am in no way trying to impose my belifs on anyone else.

Thank you for reading.

-Ryan

Edit: What do you all think about this?

I think you made a good post. Thanks for sharing.

I have a strong desire to convert people to Gods' way of thinking. I'll be honest.

It doesn't take logic to find God. It takes a strong spiritual wack upside the spiritual head. When you find that person deep inside your heart that I'll call your "spirit" then you'll understand what all those sensors you have on the outside are feeding.

Do you think your sense of feeling or smelling is for nothing? You are in this world for a reason and a purpose. In the tent of your body there is you. The perfect little soul that God created long before he put you in your mothers womb.

If you think carnal knowledge and "logic" are going to lead you to that unknown part of yourself you are mistaken. It takes a miracle from God.

Because there is so much you do know it hides everything you will never know until you seek God first. Then the mysteries of life and the universe will be revealed to you. Until then, these words will be like a seed, sealed up and lost in the deepest places in your soul until it is your time to see.

Don't laugh or scoff, I"ve seen the hardest, roughest, toughcest, meanist, agriest, most hate filled men crumble into tears the day they met God.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

If you think carnal knowledge and "logic" are going to lead you to that unknown part of yourself you are mistaken. It takes a miracle from God.

You make it sound as if we're looking for an "unknown part of ourselves."

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

It doesn't take logic to find God. It takes a strong spiritual wack upside the spiritual head. When you find that person deep inside your heart that I'll call your "spirit" then you'll understand what all those sensors you have on the outside are feeding.

I was Catholic. I used to pray a lot, almost all day because I had no friends to talk to.

And, after a year of this praying, I thought to myself, "Wow, WTF, I've been making myself feel better by talking to myself."

So then, I hadn't completely discarded the idea of God, so I became a sort of deist/New Ager. And then, after a while of THAT, I heard the quote "The invisible and the nonexistant look a lot alike." And then I realized how stupid I was again. At that point, I just gave up all belief, because I had met someone who never was taught any religion at all, and they were an atheist with no supernatural beliefs. And that's where I am at now.

Following Occam's Razor, there is no need for a God to make sense of the world. That's what science is for.

God creates retards, still borns, and premature babies born without skin, according to you. I refuse to worship a God who would cause suffering to an innocent being, or intentionally make an innocent being disabled.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

You make it sound as if we're looking for an "unknown part of ourselves."



Um.. DING DING DING! Because you are. However, Most tend to search the world to fill the 'void', and when you see this world isn't filling any kind of void anytime soon, you'll begin to look other places to fill that 'unknown part of yourself'!!

so you were a weak-minded theist, and now you're a weak-minded atheist? well, that's some improvement, at least. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Um.. DING DING DING! Because you are. However, Most tend to search the world to fill the 'void', and when you see this world isn't filling any kind of void anytime soon, you'll begin to look other places to fill that 'unknown part of yourself'!!

Speak for yourself, sunshine. I'm quite happy living a life of wine, women and song; utterly beyond the gnarled and subjective tendrils of good and evil.

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

so you were a weak-minded theist, and now you're a weak-minded atheist? well, that's some improvement, at least. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



No. I wasn't a weak minded theist. I prayed every day thinking the year 2000 would be the end of the world. I went to church every day, accepted creationism, and believed that the wine was actually Jesus's blood. I got my hands on all the Catholic books out there that I could understand, and was mad when nuns kept giving my sister books but not me.

It wasn't like I was on the brink of realizing that I was talking to myself, it was more of a sudden realization. Following that, I became depressed realizing that there may not be an afterlife.

I am an atheist now. I do not believe in God. I don't really see how that makes me weak minded, tiger, but whatever you say.

quote:Originally posted by Inti:

God creates retards, still borns, and premature babies born without skin, according to you. I refuse to worship a God who would cause suffering to an innocent being, or intentionally make an innocent being disabled.

Why rail and beat against something that you don't believe in? Stop raging against the dying of the light and start to enjoy yourself.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

Why rail and beat against something that you don't believe in? Stop raging against the dying of the light and start to enjoy yourself.

To be honest, it's because I have nothing else to do.

quote:Originally posted by Inti:

To be honest, it's because I have nothing else to do.

Go get drunk. Smoke a whole carton of cigarettes. Scream "I am here!" in the middle of a crowded supermarket. Offer free hugs to passers-by. Get laid. Date a supermodel. Read Lucretius. Clean your nails. Masturbate. Eat an entire tub of chocolate ice-cream, then throw it all back up. Fall in love.

Whistling in the darkness is easy when you know the tune.

quote:Originally posted by Inti:



No. I wasn't a weak minded theist. I prayed every day thinking the year 2000 would be the end of the world. I went to church every day, accepted creationism, and believed that the wine was actually Jesus's blood. I got my hands on all the Catholic books out there that I could understand, and was mad when nuns kept giving my sister books but not me.

It wasn't like I was on the brink of realizing that I was talking to myself, it was more of a sudden realization. Following that, I became depressed realizing that there may not be an afterlife.

I am an atheist now. I do not believe in God. I don't really see how that makes me weak minded, tiger, but whatever you say.

well, from your original statment, you seemed to easily be swayed from one belief to another. why are you an athiest? the only reasons your give are the argument for most reasonable explanation and that you are mad at god for creating evil in the world.

you were swayed from your faith with a few simple revalations.

i wasn't insulting you though. to the contrary, i was complementing you. you can bet if you ever get your faith back, it will be strong-minded after having dealt with the the questions you have raised...

ironically, athiesm is an excellent path to god. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I, Inti, hereby quit TOTSE, to follow literary syphilis's advice.

It wasn't so much that I sway between beliefs a lot, it was more that I kept giving up beliefs as I found more reasonable and logical explanations for why things are the way they are, until eventually I ended up where I am now. I also wasn't mad at God, because I didn't believe in one by the time I came up with reasons to be mad at him.

quote:Originally posted by Inti:

I, Inti, hereby quit TOTSE, to follow literary syphilis's advice.

It wasn't so much that I sway between beliefs a lot, it was more that I kept giving up beliefs as I found more reasonable and logical explanations for why things are the way they are, until eventually I ended up where I am now. I also wasn't mad at God, because I didn't believe in one by the time I came up with reasons to be mad at him.

whatever...

quote:Originally posted by Mojo Hojo:

Thankye, folks should be more like you, in my opinion, to end this horrid bashing and inability of folks of keeping their beliefs to themselves.

You have my support.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I think you made a good post. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks to everyone for their input. Even though I don't agree with some of the views expressed, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to read and respond. I guess I just wanted to know how you all felt about what I had to say, and I was pleased with the response. Participants in this forum also generally seem to be more mature and respecting of others' ideas, which is so much more welcoming.

quote:Originally posted by Inti:

I was Catholic. I used to pray a lot, almost all day because I had no friends to talk to.

I understand the many denominations and why they exist. Some do things this way and some do things another. Some people do well in the dogmatic, ritualistic way of the Catholic. Some do better in a 7th day adventist type of worship while some can handle a proggressive non-denominational gathering. I wouldn't close the door to soon on it all. Consider protestants who believe more in relationship over ritual and faith over dogmatism. Athiesm is a good place to rest in todays spiritual chaos. Just take your time, discern the things around you and keep looking.

quote:And, after a year of this praying, I thought to myself, "Wow, WTF, I've been making myself feel better by talking to myself."

I don't blame you..I never understood the catholic canned prayers. (especially when the bible is opposed to it) Try and talk to Him as if you were talking to someone sitting next to you.

quote:So then, I hadn't completely discarded the idea of God, so I became a sort of deist/New Ager. And then, after a while of THAT, I heard the quote "The invisible and the nonexistant look a lot alike." And then I realized how stupid I was again. At that point, I just gave up all belief, because I had met someone who never was taught any religion at all, and they were an atheist with no supernatural beliefs. And that's where I am at now.

I think someone else said it before..you are easily swayed. If you are not anchored in sound doctrine then you will be blown from place to place for which this passage is true; "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;" James1 1:5-7 NIV



quote:

Following Occam's Razor, there is no need for a God to make sense of the world. That's what science is for.

It's true, but the world is what stops us from being able to see beyond the tip of our own spiritual nose.

quote:God creates retards, still borns, and premature babies born without skin, according to you. I refuse to worship a God who would cause suffering to an innocent being, or intentionally make an innocent being disabled.

Everything is within it's perfect place and order as it should be. I'll tell you a story. One day I was in church and I saw a man in a wheel chair role by who had no control over his body. I would guess he had cerebal palsy or something along those lines. When I saw him I was immediatly filled with compassion and begain praying that God would straighten his legs and stand him up. I asked God to fix that broken man. But, God in His way, spoke to my heart and said this man is made for this purpose. He was made to soften hearts and fill them with compassion. I immediatly realized it was me who was broken and needed healing and not that man in the wheel chair. God deals with the spirit man in His way and through the things in this world He speaks to us. You will never see the spirit if all you see is the facade of the world.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

Everything is within it's perfect place and order as it should be.

Master Pangloss taught the metaphysico-theologo-cosmolonigology. He could prove to admiration that there is no effect without a cause; and, that in this best of all possible worlds, the Baron's castle was the most magnificent of all castles, and My Lady the best of all possible baronesses.

"It is demonstrable," said he, "that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end. Observe, for instance, the nose is formed for spectacles, therefore we wear spectacles. The legs are visibly designed for stockings, accordingly we wear stockings. Stones were made to be hewn and to construct castles, therefore My Lord has a magnificent castle; for the greatest baron in the province ought to be the best lodged. Swine were intended to be eaten, therefore we eat pork all the year round: and they, who assert that everything is right, do not express themselves correctly; they should say that everything is best."

Voltaire > Leibniz.

And another one for good measure:

The little society, one and all, entered into this laudable design and set themselves to exert their different talents. The little piece of ground yielded them a plentiful crop. Cunegund indeed was very ugly, but she became an excellent hand at pastrywork: Pacquette embroidered; the old woman had the care of the linen. There was none, down to Brother Giroflee, but did some service; he was a very good carpenter, and became an honest man. Pangloss used now and then to say to Candide:

"There is a concatenation of all events in the best of possible worlds; for, in short, had you not been kicked out of a fine castle for the love of Miss Cunegund; had you not been put into the Inquisition; had you not traveled over America on foot; had you not run the Baron through the body; and had you not lost all your sheep, which you brought from the good country of El Dorado, you would not have been here to eat preserved citrons and pistachio nuts."

"Excellently observed," answered Candide; "but let us cultivate our garden."

Please note that Voltaire considered Pangloss an idiot of a character.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

You make it sound as if we're looking for an "unknown part of ourselves."

I wouldn't put it that way exactly. A better way of saying it is understanding a subconscience inkling to a part of us that has yet been awakened. It is our human soul in it's fullest as a completed entity of mind, body and spirit. It is knowing that the concept of eternal is finally completed in us.

I know what it is but yet it is so elusive I can't imagine it. Existence beyond the reaches of time, beyond sickness and death, beyond a tear of pain will only be known to those who seek and are awakened by God.

This "unknown part" is hidden from you because it hasn't been born yet.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

Existence beyond the reaches of time, beyond sickness and death, beyond a tear of pain will only be known to those who seek and are awakened by God.

Life is nothing without pain, fear and sickness. Life is a dyadic construct, and by removing one end of the dyad, the other end becomes utterly meaningless. Without the conception of gender, without the impetus of stimulus, there is only a static prolonging - nothing but feedback and white noise. That sounds far more like death than rotting in a hole in the ground.

Utopia? Heaven? Paradise? You can have it, brother. I would prefer life to have blemishes.

To quote Mr Beckett:

Just under the surface I shall be, all together at first, then separate and drift, through all the earth and perhaps in the end through a cliff into the sea, something of me. A ton of worms in an acre, that is a wonderful thought, a ton of worms, I believe it.

[This message has been edited by literary syphilis (edited 11-09-2005).]

you think you understand duality? lmmfao!

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

Everything is within it's perfect place and order as it should be. I'll tell you a story. One day I was in church and I saw a man in a wheel chair role by who had no control over his body. I would guess he had cerebal palsy or something along those lines. When I saw him I was immediatly filled with compassion and begain praying that God would straighten his legs and stand him up. I asked God to fix that broken man. But, God in His way, spoke to my heart and said this man is made for this purpose. He was made to soften hearts and fill them with compassion. I immediatly realized it was me who was broken and needed healing and not that man in the wheel chair. God deals with the spirit man in His way and through the things in this world He speaks to us. You will never see the spirit if all you see is the facade of the world.



what makes you think we have a spirit?

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

you think you understand duality? lmmfao!

Are you going to elucidate on that point, or are you going to continue grinning smugly?

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

Are you going to elucidate on that point, or are you going to continue grinning smugly?

even you choose to live within the a dualistic paradigm, you must realize that while neither can exist without the other, as they are equal aspects of the whole, it is ultimately an artificial distinction.

a simple example would be light and dark, or hot and cold. darkness is merely the absense of light, and cold the absense of heat. they are really the same thing.

we can take this further into the realm of our emotions. pain and pleasure, or love and hate, for example, are on opposite ends of the same dualistic pole.

I'm well aware of that. However, Sig_Intel, in defining "pain" and "sickness" as Platonic ideals has discarded the spectrum in favour of the "pure" dyad, and thus I argued from such a position. I find that redefining the tenets of the argument after it has already started is often counter-productive.

Sig_Intel does not realise that if pain and sickness (and even death) were removed from existence, the spectrums that they are part of would still exist, and basically all that would occur would be a redefining of terms. However, this is at odds with the classical model of Heaven, as well as also sounding a lot like a life on Earth from which there is no release.

...I shall soon enter this broad desert, perfectly level and boundless, where the truly pious heart succumbs in bliss. I shall sink into the divine shadow, in a dumb silence and an ineffable union, and in this sinking all equality and all inequality shall be lost, and in that abyss my spirit will lose itself, and will not know the equal or the unequal, or anything else: and all differences will be forgotten. I shall be in the simple foundation, in the silent desert where diversity is never seen, in the privacy where no one finds himself in his proper place. I shall fall into the silent and uninhabity divinity where there is no work and no image.

well, we basically agree then. i just took sigs post with a grain of salt instead of interpreting it literally.

All I know is what the words know.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

All I know is what the words know.

Because you are looking at it from the carnal perspective. I'm not talking about the world. I'm talking about what defines the boundries of motives and desires. It isn't in this world but lies directly in your body and mind. IT is the human spirit.

Logic is hardly carnal.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

Because you are looking at it from the carnal perspective. I'm not talking about the world. I'm talking about what defines the boundries of motives and desires. It isn't in this world but lies directly in your body and mind. IT is the human spirit.



so, how does your spirit control your body and mind, if it is not physical. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

but thats unfair.

i think my mind controls the boundaries of my

motives and desires, i can decide to want or not want something. there is no need for an ethereal me...

besides, you completely missed the point of what he was saying. he wasn't even talking about that.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

Master Pangloss taught the metaphysico-theologo-cosmolonigology. He could prove to admiration that there is no effect without a cause; and, that in this best of all possible worlds, the Baron's castle was the most magnificent of all castles, and My Lady the best of all possible baronesses.

"It is demonstrable," said he, "that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end. Observe, for instance, the nose is formed for spectacles, therefore we wear spectacles. The legs are visibly designed for stockings, accordingly we wear stockings. Stones were made to be hewn and to construct castles, therefore My Lord has a magnificent castle; for the greatest baron in the province ought to be the best lodged. Swine were intended to be eaten, therefore we eat pork all the year round: and they, who assert that everything is right, do not express themselves correctly; they should say that everything is best."

Voltaire > Leibniz.

Candide! I really enjoyed that book.

Got any reading recommendations for me? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) I'm out of books for the moment http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Everyone is, not because I have any knowledge of what everyone does with their lives, but because we as humans have absolutely nothing else to do. We either do that or destroy your body through toxiciation or destroy your mind through self indulgence. If you're not doing those then you're doing the far above. It's our purpose as human beings, you can't change what you do if you can't change who you are.

By your logic I must be destroying my body or my mind by default, as I'm certainly not looking for some deeply hidden part of myself. I desire to grow as a person, but not to discover who I really am. As a diehard supporter of the Lucretian model of personal identity, I don't believe that there even is such a thing as "who I really am."

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Got any reading recommendations for me? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) I'm out of books for the moment http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

What genre in particular?

[This message has been edited by literary syphilis (edited 11-13-2005).]