A Chrsitian friend of mine is arguing with me that we are indebted to God, but God does not owe us anything.

This is his argument:

"Beget" is to procreate, "Make" is to generate. Begetting creates another of the same type, making creates a lesser thing--a creation. We are the latter to God. God make us, He is the artist and we are his creation, thus he is in under no obligation whatsoever to take care of us. Only our parents are obliged to take care of us, because our parents beget us.

Is God a parent or an artist to us?

Discuss.

Neither. God is a deadbeat dad. He spurts his creation all over, then takes off.

You are not the children of God.

You are the semen of God.

In the Old testement, I'd say you were correct. In the New Testament, We become SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD, because of the Blood of Jesus. Jesus died so 1 may become MANY. Many sons and daughters of God. 1 Died, and rose again, and made many sons and daughters of God. So not only is God my Creator, He is also my Father. Not only that, God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) created us in Their image. In their likeness. Is God my Creator, or my Father? He is both, and more. His is El-Shaddai (The God who is MORE than Enough).

Gennao is the Hebrew word used in translating the bible from Hebrew to English.

Gennao means to beget, to become the father of. So did God beget me? Absolutley. He became Father of me.



Is God a parent or an artist?



God is the father from which ALL fatherhood takes it's title and derives it's name.

quote:Originally posted by Joe_the_Dead:

Neither. God is a deadbeat dad. He spurts his creation all over, then takes off.

You are not the children of God.

You are the semen of God.

Fundamental Atheism: "I don't believe God exists. That's why I hate him."

Doesn't make much sense does it?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Fundamental Atheism: "I don't believe God exists. That's why I hate him."

Doesn't make much sense does it?



Eh... most of the time we're just satirizing the aspects of Christianity.

Neither, of course.

If there is a God, and we are his 'work of art', then we're the works of art that have been thrown into the garbage, discarded, and ignored. Thus, that kinda denies that we have any obligations toward him.

If God is a parent... Well, that makes things much, much worse for Christians - A good parent doesn't allow 6 million of his children to be brutally massacred, would he? But that's a whole other debate.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Fundamental Atheism: "I don't believe God exists. That's why I hate him."

Doesn't make much sense does it?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

In the Old testement, I'd say you were correct. In the New Testament, We become SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD, because of the Blood of Jesus. Jesus died so 1 may become MANY. Many sons and daughters of God. 1 Died, and rose again, and made many sons and daughters of God. So not only is God my Creator, He is also my Father. Not only that, God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) created us in Their image. In their likeness. Is God my Creator, or my Father? He is both, and more. His is El-Shaddai (The God who is MORE than Enough).

Gennao is the Hebrew word used in translating the bible from Hebrew to English.

Gennao means to beget, to become the father of. So did God beget me? Absolutley. He became Father of me.



Is God a parent or an artist?



God is the father from which ALL fatherhood takes it's title and derives it's name.



You are saying that God is a parent to us.

So, this means that you agree with me that God must take care of us? God must protect us, like a parent protecting his child.

Is this right?

quote:Originally posted by sii:

Neither, of course.

If there is a God, and we are his 'work of art', then we're the works of art that have been thrown into the garbage, discarded, and ignored. Thus, that kinda denies that we have any obligations toward him.



So, you are saying that an artwork owes gratitude to the creator/artist, only if that artwork is beautiful?

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:



You are saying that God is a parent to us.

So, this means that you agree with me that God must take care of us? God must protect us, like a parent protecting his child.

Is this right?





Absolutley. I thought you were saying you were the one who said, creator. Sorry.

You're right, and it's written throughout his word. Psalms 91: Jesus said, Don't worry because God knows the things you have need of. God said, Cast your cares upon me, for I care for you.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



Absolutley. I thought you were saying you were the one who said, creator. Sorry.

You're right, and it's written throughout his word. Psalms 91: Jesus said, Don't worry because God knows the things you have need of. God said, Cast your cares upon me, for I care for you.

My friend, he uses the potter and caly analogy.

Isaiah 45:

9. "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker--

An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!

Will the clay say to the potter, `What are you doing?'

Or the thing you are making say, `He has no hands'?



Romans 9:

14. What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15. For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20. On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22. What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23. And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24. even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.



You see that?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



Absolutley. I thought you were saying you were the one who said, creator. Sorry.

You're right, and it's written throughout his word. Psalms 91: Jesus said, Don't worry because God knows the things you have need of. God said, Cast your cares upon me, for I care for you.

Psalms 91 says that we should surrender everything to God, because God will take care of everything. But, it doesn't say that God has any obligation to take care of us.

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

My friend, he uses the potter and caly analogy.

Isaiah 45:

9. "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker--

An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!

Will the clay say to the potter, `What are you doing?'

Or the thing you are making say, `He has no hands'?



Romans 9:

14. What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15. For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20. On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22. What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23. And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24. even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.



You see that?

God turns people over to the DESIRES of their heart. Paul said, "If a man thinks himself to be wise, then LET HIM BECOME A FOOL, so that he may be wise."

God chooses the simple things of the world to confound the wise.

You have mans widsom, which amounts to nothing when it comes to God, because God's wisdom is the TRUE wisdom. People think they have things all figured out, they take pride in what they think they know, or mans wisdom, but if they'd come to the understanding that they know nothing, and begin to seek TRUTH, (God) with a pure heart, God would reveal himself to them. The reason why the bible it written as it is, is so those who seek after wisdom in their heart can't receive it, and those who read His Word with an alternative motive, other than SEEKING GOD WITH A PURE HEART, will never understand it. They can get a carnal understanding which brings forth religous beliefs, but not a Godly understanding, which brings forth the manifestation of the sons of God. Basically the bible is how it is so fools can't understand it.

The big thing with the Potter, in Jeremiah, is that God took what he had made, and tore it down, to make a better vessel.

Well, look at us. God made us, and allowed us freewill, He let US choose what we wanted, then He sent Jesus, to redeem us, so that he could make us vessels unto him. Vessels that aren't broken, or cracked, and vessels that will not be finished until We meet Jesus in the air.

It's spiritual, not carnal. You're friend, needs to seek God when reading God's word and ask God for HIS revelation and HIS understanding, and not to seek his own.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-08-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

Psalms 91 says that we should surrender everything to God, because God will take care of everything. But, it doesn't say that God has any obligation to take care of us.



You're right.... God has no obligation to do anything. Just like your parents don't have any obligation to take care of you... Now toy say, "Hey man, that's messed up. Sure they do!" Don't worry, I agree. But what is the defining principle that makes it right or wrong? Who gets to decide that? If you believe in God, then everything in all Creation belongs to Him. Do you really think He would forsake His own creation? The reality is, God never strays from us, it's us who stray from God. But if you can get past the fact that God is never going to slap you upside the head tp reveal Himself, then you are ready to be open and receptive. When you meet the Spirit, you will have NO DOUBT!

^^Preach that!

That's BOLD, brother.



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-08-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

^^Preach that!

That's BOLD, brother.



*winks*

Hungry souls nourished by the Word. Thirsty hearts quenched by the Living Water.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

*winks*

Hungry souls nourished by the Word. Thirsty hearts quenched by the Living Water.



That's right. I love the anointing God's placed on you, and the Jesus in you. You're going to do great things for God. Keep going, and never give up!

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



You're right.... God has no obligation to do anything. Just like your parents don't have any obligation to take care of you... Now toy say, "Hey man, that's messed up. Sure they do!" Don't worry, I agree. But what is the defining principle that makes it right or wrong? Who gets to decide that? If you believe in God, then everything in all Creation belongs to Him. Do you really think He would forsake His own creation? The reality is, God never strays from us, it's us who stray from God. But if you can get past the fact that God is never going to slap you upside the head tp reveal Himself, then you are ready to be open and receptive. When you meet the Spirit, you will have NO DOUBT!



Parents have an obligation to take care of their child.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

God turns people over to the DESIRES of their heart. Paul said, "If a man thinks himself to be wise, then LET HIM BECOME A FOOL, so that he may be wise."

God chooses the simple things of the world to confound the wise.

You have mans widsom, which amounts to nothing when it comes to God, because God's wisdom is the TRUE wisdom. People think they have things all figured out, they take pride in what they think they know, or mans wisdom, but if they'd come to the understanding that they know nothing, and begin to seek TRUTH, (God) with a pure heart, God would reveal himself to them. The reason why the bible it written as it is, is so those who seek after wisdom in their heart can't receive it, and those who read His Word with an alternative motive, other than SEEKING GOD WITH A PURE HEART, will never understand it. They can get a carnal understanding which brings forth religous beliefs, but not a Godly understanding, which brings forth the manifestation of the sons of God. Basically the bible is how it is so fools can't understand it.

This sounds like some Harry Potter crap.

If your heart is pure, you will see the philosopher's stone on the mirror.

Plus, this is not what I am asking.

quote:The big thing with the Potter, in Jeremiah, is that God took what he had made, and tore it down, to make a better vessel.

Well, look at us. God made us, and allowed us freewill, He let US choose what we wanted, then He sent Jesus, to redeem us, so that he could make us vessels unto him. Vessels that aren't broken, or cracked, and vessels that will not be finished until We meet Jesus in the air.

It's spiritual, not carnal. You're friend, needs to seek God when reading God's word and ask God for HIS revelation and HIS understanding, and not to seek his own.



Now, now, this is irrelevant to the matter-at-hand. WHat I want to know is God obliged to take care of us? Please answer this question straight, wihtout any deviation.

You're the one who brought up Jeremiah.

hyroglyphx answered your question.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

You're the one who brought up Jeremiah.

hyroglyphx answered your question.



So, according to hyroglyphx, God is not obliged to take care of us. But, we can trust that he will take care of us. IS that right?

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

So, according to hyroglyphx, God is not obliged to take care of us. But, we can trust that he will take care of us. IS that right?

Dude, if you know your covenant, you're protected. Quit trying to be philosophical with the Word of God. I don't know who you think you're fooling, but you were/are an undeserving sinner just like the rest of us were/are. We all deserved HELL, fire and brimestone, but it's by GRACE we are saved THROUGH faith.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Dude, if you know your covenant, you're protected. Quit trying to be philosophical with the Word of God. I don't know who you think you're fooling, but you were/are an undeserving sinner just like the rest of us were/are. We all deserved HELL, fire and brimestone, but it's by GRACE we are saved THROUGH faith.

It's important to determine this.

Because why?

Because if God is obliged to take care of us, then I don't have to go to church, I don't have to read the Bible, but God will take care of me. You get it?

God is an artwork. A spontaneous mural wrought by humanity at large.

And Solomon was a beautiful poet.

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

Originally posted by sii:

Neither, of course.

If there is a God, and we are his 'work of art', then we're the works of art that have been thrown into the garbage, discarded, and ignored. Thus, that kinda denies that we have any obligations toward him.



So, you are saying that an artwork owes gratitude to the creator/artist, only if that artwork is beautiful?



Obviously not. I'm saying art owes nothing to the creator if the creator has no respect for his own art.

Syphillis, I definitely agree with that. Good way of putting it.

[This message has been edited by sii (edited 11-08-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Dude, if you know your covenant, you're protected. Quit trying to be philosophical with the Word of God. I don't know who you think you're fooling, but you were/are an undeserving sinner just like the rest of us were/are. We all deserved HELL, fire and brimestone, but it's by GRACE we are saved THROUGH faith.

i know my covenant, but logic dictates that i can't believe in it.

there are 3 possible scenarios

1)god is obligated to protect us OR he protects everybody. in which case, i don't have to do anything ever again.

2) god is not obligated to protect us, and he doesn't protect us. this is in conflict with pretty much the whole bible.

3) god is not obligated to protect us, and he chooses to protect people (IF people= all people, see #1; Else http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif). some people are protected and others are not

i can therefore come to one or more of three conclusions

1)i don't have to do anything ever again

2)pretty much the whole bible is wrong

3)god is not merciful (if he were merciful, he would not let good and innocent people go unprotected)

Let me tell you something.. You go out of God's will, out of his reach willfully, YOU'RE WALKING IN DARKNESS WITHOUT LIGHT, AND HE CAN'T MAKE YOU COME BACK INTO THE LIGHT. When you go OUT of God's WILL, he can WANT for you all he wants, But he can't MAKE YOU WANT IT FOR YOU. He loves you, but he can't make you abide under his shadow.

Get this and read it CLOSELY.

Psalm 91:

HE WHO DWELLS IN the secret place of the Most High shall remain stable and fixed under the shadow of the Almighty [Whose power NO FOE can withstand].

I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress, and My God; on Him I lean and rely, and in HIM I [confidently] trust!

For [THEN] He will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence.

[THEN] He will cover you with His pinions, and under His wings shall you trust, and find refuge; HIS TRUTH and HIS FAITHFULNESS are a shield and a buckler.

THEN. THEN. THEN, means you have to do what is BEFORE the 'then' to aspire.

Which is DWELL IN THE SECRET PLACE OF THE MOST HIGH!!! REMAIN IN GOD, THENNNNNNNNNN, He will cover you with his pinions/feathers and under HIS WINGS will YOU TRUST. THEN he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence. THEN.

When you see THEN you need to read what you have to do before THEN. WHen you see THEREFORE you need to find what it's THERE FOR.

My goodness, if you're not abiding in him, HE CAN LOVE YOU ALL HE WANTS AND WANT TO PROTECT YOU, BUT HE CAN'T BECAUSE YOU LEFT HIM!! Becareful!!!!!!



How is it, people can quote Psalm 91: BUT NOT UNDERSTAND IT?

Do you think God wants you out of fellowship with Him and other believers? I don't, and if you say God told you not to go to church, I'll tell you THE DEVIL IS A LIAR.

God will NEVER tell his people, "DON'T LEARN OF ME, YOU DON'T NEED A PASTOR!"

Apparently you do, Jesus said if you love me, feed my sheep, whatever pastor you're under, you're his flock, and he's to FEED YOU.

MY GOODNESS!!

I thought everyone knew, Verse 1 comes BEFORE verse two.



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Let me tell you something.. You go out of God's will, out of his reach willfully, YOU'RE WALKING IN DARKNESS WITHOUT LIGHT, AND HE CAN'T MAKE YOU COME BACK INTO THE LIGHT. When you go OUT of God's WILL, he can WANT for you all he wants, But he can't MAKE YOU WANT IT FOR YOU. He loves you, but he can't make you abide under his shadow.

Get this and read it CLOSELY.

Psalm 91:

HE WHO DWELLS IN the secret place of the Most High shall remain stable and fixed under the shadow of the Almighty [Whose power NO FOE can withstand].

I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress, and My God; on Him I lean and rely, and in HIM I [confidently] trust!

For [THEN] He will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence.

[THEN] He will cover you with His pinions, and under His wings shall you trust, and find refuge; HIS TRUTH and HIS FAITHFULNESS are a shield and a buckler.

THEN. THEN. THEN, means you have to do what is BEFORE the 'then' to aspire.

Which is DWELL IN THE SECRET PLACE OF THE MOST HIGH!!! REMAIN IN GOD, THENNNNNNNNNN, He will cover you with his pinions/feathers and under HIS WINGS will YOU TRUST. THEN he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence. THEN.

When you see THEN you need to read what you have to do before THEN. WHen you see THEREFORE you need to find what it's THERE FOR.

My goodness, if you're not abiding in him, HE CAN LOVE YOU ALL HE WANTS AND WANT TO PROTECT YOU, BUT HE CAN'T BECAUSE YOU LEFT HIM!! Becareful!!!!!!



How is it, people can quote Psalm 91: BUT NOT UNDERSTAND IT?

Do you think God wants you out of fellowship with Him and other believers? I don't, and if you say God told you not to go to church, I'll tell you THE DEVIL IS A LIAR.

God will NEVER tell his people, "DON'T LEARN OF ME, YOU DON'T NEED A PASTOR!"

Apparently you do, Jesus said if you love me, feed my sheep, whatever pastor you're under, you're his flock, and he's to FEED YOU.

MY GOODNESS!!

I thought everyone knew, Verse 1 comes BEFORE verse two.



interesting. so we as humans have to have the right mindset in order to revieve god's protection? am i correct in this interpretation of your post?

quote:Originally posted by PirateJoe:

interesting. so we as humans have to have the right mindset in order to revieve god's protection? am i correct in this interpretation of your post?

No you're not. You have a carnal understanding, not a spiritual understanding. Seeing they see not, hearing they hear not.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

No you're not. You have a carnal understanding, not a spiritual understanding. Seeing they see not, hearing they hear not.



let me take another stab at it



god wants to protect you, but he can only do it if you want to be protected by god? it has to be a mutual thing?

quote:Originally posted by PirateJoe:

let me take another stab at it



god wants to protect you, but he can only do it if you want to be protected by god? it has to be a mutual thing?

Let me say this better. When you leave your parents house and do your thing, get drunk, what not, can your mom/dad protect you?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Let me say this better. When you leave your parents house and do your thing, get drunk, what not, can your mom/dad protect you?

Is my mom and dad omnipotent?

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

Is my mom and dad omnipotent?

Does your mom and dad not let you make your own decisions? It's called 'Free will'. God doesn't MAKE you do anything, you do what you want to do willfully. Why can't you grasp this?

I have yet to see any Bible verses that explicitly support free will, particularly given the large amount of Biblical support for determinism (John Calvin was onto something).

Of course, even if we do have free will, that kind of compromises God's omniscience.

As Umberto Eco wrote:

"It is hard to accept the idea that there cannot be an order in the universe because it would offend the free will of God, and His omnipotence. So the freedom of God is our condemnation, or at least the condemnation of our pride."

I dared, for the first and last time in my life, to express a theological conclusion: "But how can a necessary being exist totally polluted with the possible? What difference is there between God and primigenial chaos? Isn't affirming God's absolute omnipotence and His absolute freedom with regards to His own choices tantamount to demonstrating that God does not exist?"

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Does your mom and dad not let you make your own decisions? It's called 'Free will'. God doesn't MAKE you do anything, you do what you want to do willfully. Why can't you grasp this?

why all this obsession with free will? if god is so damn omnipotent, why can't he just remove free will and force us to get along? wouldn't the world be a much better place. why is free will inherently good?

This was covered far better in A Clockwork Orange

The way I see it, 2000 pages of threats doesn't make me think that god is a big fan of free will.

A homosexual.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

This was covered far better in A Clockwork Orange

The way I see it, 2000 pages of threats doesn't make me think that god is a big fan of free will.

God doesn't threaten people. With every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. We call them consequences.

If I CHOOSE to get drunk with 3 hot guys around me, and end up sleeping with one of them, just for fun, and get pregnant, that's a consequence of an action I CHOOSE to take on.

You sin, the wages of sin is death.

quote: God doesn't threaten people. With every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. We call them consequences...

You sin, the wages of sin is death.



On what planet does this happen?

I could sodomize a dozen nuns

and only get a happy memory.

Or you could be praying for puppies

and have lightning burn your face off.

There are causes and effects,

but "sin" is irrelevant and

imaginary.

quote:God chooses the simple things of the world to confound the wise...

People think they have things all figured out, they take pride in what they think they know, or mans wisdom, but if they'd come to the understanding that they know nothing, and begin to seek TRUTH, (God) with a pure heart, God would reveal himself to them... Basically the bible is how it is so fools can't understand it.

This is doublethink conditioning.

You are turning what little brains

you have against itself to make

yourself dumber than you already were.

Wake up already. You are so easy.

Wonder why people start all these

silly new religions? Simple.

People fall for this shit.

Like you have.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

God doesn't threaten people. With every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. We call them consequences.

If I CHOOSE to get drunk with 3 hot guys around me, and end up sleeping with one of them, just for fun, and get pregnant, that's a consequence of an action I CHOOSE to take on.

You sin, the wages of sin is death.



Unless you accept my teaching's unconditionally I will send you to a pit of eternal torture.

Unforunately shelly you do not have a pot to piss in.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

Unless you accept my teaching's unconditionally I will send you to a pit of eternal torture.

Unforunately shelly you do not have a pot to piss in.

Then I'll just pee in yours!!!

over my dead body

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Dude, if you know your covenant, you're protected. Quit trying to be philosophical with the Word of God. I don't know who you think you're fooling, but you were/are an undeserving sinner just like the rest of us were/are. We all deserved HELL, fire and brimestone, but it's by GRACE we are saved THROUGH faith.

Theres not a holy in asshol, but there is a WHY//

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

over my dead body

If that's what it takes, I'm joking.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

If I CHOOSE to get drunk with 3 hot guys around me, and end up sleeping with one of them, just for fun, and get pregnant, that's a consequence of an action I CHOOSE to take on.

You sin, the wages of sin is death.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

I have yet to see any Bible verses that explicitly support free will, particularly given the large amount of Biblical support for determinism (John Calvin was onto something).

Of course, even if we do have free will, that kind of compromises God's omniscience.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



You sin, the wages of sin is death.



And you don't see this as a threat?

The wages of sin is both physical death (original sin) and spiritual death. If someone told you that if you murdered a person, you would be brought to trial and put to death for the sake of justice, would you interpret that as a threat, a reckoning, or a deterent, or all three?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

The wages of sin is both physical death (original sin) and spiritual death. If someone told you that if you murdered a person, you would be brought to trial and put to death for the sake of justice, would you interpret that as a threat, a reckoning, or a deterent, or all three?

The first and the third. I have yet to see that justice exists in any objective, qualifiable way.

I am going to suggest an entirely different perspective. Suppose that we each encompass a part of God. We are his creation but we are not a seperate work of art that has been "thrown in the trash." Perhaps we are a creation of Him, himself.

To get even more ridiculous think about this. Suppose that He is the Universe. He then decided to transform himself. Suppose then that he began a process of evolution from the Big Bang and He, being the Universe, began to expand and form different galaxies, solar systems, and planets. Perhaps we are just a part of His evolution. Thus we are neither in a parent-son relationship nor are we a subjected piece of art that he has planned.

That of course is all PURE speculation. But hey, the possibilities man, the possibilities!!!

quote:Originally posted by Dalaran:

I am going to suggest an entirely different perspective. Suppose that we each encompass a part of God. We are his creation but we are not a seperate work of art that has been "thrown in the trash." Perhaps we are a creation of Him, himself.

To get even more ridiculous think about this. Suppose that He is the Universe. He then decided to transform himself. Suppose then that he began a process of evolution from the Big Bang and He, being the Universe, began to expand and form different galaxies, solar systems, and planets. Perhaps we are just a part of His evolution. Thus we are neither in a parent-son relationship nor are we a subjected piece of art that he has planned.

That of course is all PURE speculation. But hey, the possibilities man, the possibilities!!!

What is this? Pantheism?

A belief in many gods, not just one. These gods typically perform different functions. I.e. the god of war, the god of wind, god of the sea, blah, blah, blah........

No, not necessarily Pantheism. I am not suggesting that there is many gods but simply that we are all, to be humorous, "God's appendages."

quote:Originally posted by Dalaran:

No, not necessarily Pantheism. I am not suggesting that there is many gods but simply that we are all, to be humorous, "God's appendages."

There is a slight difference from pantheism and polytheism.

pan·the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pnth-zm)

n.

A doctrine identifying the Deity with the universe and its phenomena.

Belief in and worship of all gods.



pol·y·the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-th-zm, pl-thz-m)

n.

The worship of or belief in more than one god.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

And you don't see this as a threat?

No, I see it as an undisputable truth. It's the WORD of GOD. The bible also says, Wine helps your stomach, would you say that's a threat, or a truth?

Don't be so bull-headed.

If I smoke cigarettes, despite knowing that cigarette smoking causes cancer, and that my body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost, then I'm willfully sinning knowing what the end result of sin is. STD's, derive from SEXUAL SIN. Cancer, Medical science had tied in with people who hold unforgiveness, along with arthritis. Sin= Death.

People with diseases get so mad at the medical field, and push for them to find cures. What they really want, is a way to sin without paying the price of sin.

You drink for 30 years and die, due to liver complications, is it God's fault, or is it YOUR fault? You knew, right and wrong. You made the decision. God doesn't make your choices for you, just like your parents don't make them for you when you reach the age of accountability. It doesn't mean I'm going to go hang around a 'bad' crowd, get drugged, and blame my mom. Even if my mom had warned me of things, I wouldn't blame her. I would be like, "Well, I should have listened."

"Well, you don't know what I've been through." There's another part to that, I DON'T CARE. If you base who you are off of past situations, then you aren't really someone I'd want to know anyways. I'm going to be real.

I'm so tired of hearing people blame God. You doubt God because your foundation is weak, then you turn from God when turmoil occurs. It's the same ole story. Bottom line is, your faith was never strong enough, and when temptation came you proved you didn't have what it took to keep going.

Joyce Meyers-"When you squeeze a tube of toothpaste,what's in the inside comes out."

What were you made of? Doubt, unbelief, or TRUTH, and THE WORD OF GOD. If you were walking in truth, you'd be able to discern, and if you're able to discern you can see things before you walk into them. "Stay away from the appearance of evil." Most people don't do that, and when they go to a party, get drunk, and raped, GUESS WHAT!! They blame God.

Life's horrible if you aren't walking with God, and if you aren't walking with God you don't really have a life. You submit to the devil 24-7, and you're not a threat to him. When you walk with God, every step you take is taken IN FAITH, and covenant.

"My mom/dad, was never around." Well, looks like the Devil tried to get you at an early age, and he won because YOU GAVE YOUR CONSENT. If you're walking With God, you're walking in Victory through Jesus Christ, if not, then you aren't.

God is so simple, He's so pure, and true. Doubt and unbelief complicate God. Questions Complicate God. Every question I've ever had since being a believer, I've found the answer to IN THE WORD OF GOD. Why? Because I looked, and I KEPT looking, I didn't give up UNTIL I BROKE THROUGH THE BARRIER OF DOUBT AND UNBELIEF!

I could go on and on, but I can't change you, I can tell you the truth, and it not affect you. Until YOU make the decision to SEE truth, and give your life to Jesus the Christ, only then will truth be made known unto you, and only then, will your heart be pure.

I'm not going to lie, This made me really angry, because I'M SO TIRED of hearing people's doubtful questions, and twisted interpretations.

You don't KNOW God, because God isn't going to let you know him, until you REALLY want to know him. That's why you'll not understand God.

**It doesn't complicate God, God never changes, we complicate God in our minds, because we try to understand God with our minds, when we CAN'T. Our minds will NEVER understand God, only the Spirit, the HOLY spirit.**



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-13-2005).]

HellzShellz: I shall be more blunt. What Biblical verses support human free agency? Because I sure as hell haven't seen any.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

HellzShellz: I shall be more blunt. What Biblical verses support human free agency? Because I sure as hell haven't seen any.

I percieve that as sarcasm. If you have a question, be BOLD, and spirt it out. What exactly are you trying to ask for scripture on? Being in a position to restore a fallen brother? Bear each other's burdens? Not to condone or cover up sin, but address it?

Your argument throughout this entire thread has been founded on the assumption that humans, as a whole, have free will. I'm asking you to support that assumption with textual evidence.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

Your argument throughout this entire thread has been founded on the assumption that humans, as a whole, have free will. I'm asking you to support that assumption with textual evidence.

Do you not have the ability to make decisions?

It's written all through-out the bible.

1 Chronicles 21:10 Go and tell David, Thus says the Lord: I offer you three things; choose one of them, that I may do it to you.



Job 34:4 Let us choose for ourselves that which is right; let us know among ourselves what is good.



Isaiah 7:15 Butter and curds and wild honey shall he eat when he knows [enough] to refuse the evil and choose the good.



James 4:4 You [are like] unfaithful wives [having illicit love affairs with the world and breaking your marriage vow to God]! Do you not know that being the world's friend is being God's enemy? So whoever chooses to be a friend of the world takes his stand as an enemy of God.

Not to mention the fact that God created us in his image. In his image.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-13-2005).]

Romans 9:15: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Romans 9:21: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Ephesians 1:3-4: "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

Malachi 1:2-4:""I have loved you," says the LORD.

"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'

"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."

But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD.""

Romans 8:28-30: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Not to mention the fact that God created us in his image. In his image.

God doesn't have free will either. If he is omniscient, he is trapped by it. He knows all of the choices that he will ever possibly make, and cannot deviate from that path. Unfortunately, that also compromises his omnipotence.

Isn't logic fun?

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

Romans 9:15: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Romans 9:21: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Ephesians 1:3-4: "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

Malachi 1:2-4:""I have loved you," says the LORD.

"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'

"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."

But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD.""

Romans 8:28-30: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

First of all, you need to take the bible into context, and quit basing what you think off of a few verses. Esau did he hate because Esau thought he could take God lightly. Esau took his birthright lightly, and God at that. He tried to 'use' his birthright (God). You can't do that.

"For God so loved the World." 1st of all God knows how many people are and are not going to come to Christ. Answer me something, Do you know anyone who has children who wants JUST ONE of their children to go to hell? Nope! God never made hell for man, but he made man with free will. He gave them the ability to choose. Reguardless of their decisions he chose to love us anyways. We love him because HE FIRST loved us. There's a scripture, that says, "God is not slacking concerning his promise, but patient, not wanting any to suffer, but wanting all to come to repentance."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically saying "I'll ignore whatever parts of the Bible I don't agree with. Maybe if I plug my fingers in my ears and sing LALALALALALALA really loudly the verses will go away!"

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically saying "I'll ignore whatever parts of the Bible I don't agree with. Maybe if I plug my fingers in my ears and sing LALALALALALALA really loudly the verses will go away!"

I'm saying, TAKE IT INTO CONTEXT. I don't ignore the bible, I take it into context.

Sounds like eisegesis to me.

All I know is what the words know.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

No, I see it as an undisputable truth. It's the WORD of GOD. The bible also says, Wine helps your stomach, would you say that's a threat, or a truth?

Don't be so bull-headed.

If I smoke cigarettes, despite knowing that cigarette smoking causes cancer, and that my body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost, then I'm willfully sinning knowing what the end result of sin is. STD's, derive from SEXUAL SIN. Cancer, Medical science had tied in with people who hold unforgiveness, along with arthritis. Sin= Death.

People with diseases get so mad at the medical field, and push for them to find cures. What they really want, is a way to sin without paying the price of sin....



Often, things are not so black and white.

What about those people bornt with congenital diseases? What about those people bornt with rare deformities? What about those children who are bornt with HIV?

You forget to mention that sometimes people don't choose to be evil. For example, some high school shootings were carried out by kids who were bullied by all of their classmates. The man who shot his boss, did that because he could not stand the stress. You forgot the psychological complexity of people. If you have money and you steal, while not under any psychological pressure, then it can be said it's your fault.

Religious defenders of free will like to ignore little things like "causality."

Shelly, are you seriously saying that medicine is a way to "escape the price of sin" and therefore evil? Three letters WTF.

Now adressing the other issue what your god does is akin to something like this. The CEO of coca cola creates cola, then when other people try different brands of cola he puts a gun to their head and says " drinking other colas is sing, you can only find the way to true refreshment through coke" and when people drink other brands he shoots them.

Now said CEO is not a fan of free will.

Assumption 1. God kills "sinners"

Assumption 2. God is omnipotent

Assumption 3. God believes in free will

Now I say that "killing sinners" is a threat.

you respond with this is the way of the earth god still believes in free will.

My response is an omnipotent being has the power to prevent the death of those who exercise their free will. The fact that he does not makes me wonder if he is such a big advocate of it.

Your attacks on medicine are completely unfounded.

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

Often, things are not so black and white.

What about those people bornt with congenital diseases? What about those people bornt with rare deformities? What about those children who are bornt with HIV?

You forget to mention that sometimes people don't choose to be evil. For example, some high school shootings were carried out by kids who were bullied by all of their classmates. The man who shot his boss, did that because he could not stand the stress. You forgot the psychological complexity of people. If you have money and you steal, while not under any psychological pressure, then it can be said it's your fault.



Jesus said, that one Crippled man, wasn't crippled because of sin, but that the Father might through him be glorified. I'm still saying, People want cures, so they can sin, without paying the price of sin, because it's true.

You're a jackass, People seek cures because they are hurt. Shelly if your church didn't cure you of your drug habit, you would OD and not be here. Your justification of refusing to end suffering of a hurt person is self-righteous and bigoted