I strongly question the reliability of Christianity when through the ages it has taught love and forgivenss, yet its followers have commited such horrible crimes in its name.

My personal heartfelt example is the things done to Galileo for suggesting something people didn't agree with, and yet these days there are still things you can not say without being sent to prison, or a mental ward. Society, as a whole, tends to be quiet unaccepting of things that make it feel insecure. It is the psychology of school bullies to stay in groups and derive comfort from "everybody else is doing it, so it's alright if I am". Yet if there is a conversation between individuals, your "fellow man", one finds so much in common. Yet in groups we start fighting and killing the individuals who come forth to try and help.

There are plenty of things I believe that many of you would call preposterous, or begin yelling and verbally abusing me for it. It is simply you unable to escape the way of the group. Those folks would make a perfect sheep for Hitler in his time.

Just thoughts and ramblings. I claim insanity.

quote:Originally posted by Mojo Hojo:

I strongly question the reliability of Christianity when through the ages it has taught love and forgivenss, yet its followers have commited such horrible crimes in its name.

My personal heartfelt example is the things done to Galileo for suggesting something people didn't agree with, and yet these days there are still things you can not say without being sent to prison, or a mental ward. Society, as a whole, tends to be quiet unaccepting of things that make it feel insecure. It is the psychology of school bullies to stay in groups and derive comfort from "everybody else is doing it, so it's alright if I am". Yet if there is a conversation between individuals, your "fellow man", one finds so much in common. Yet in groups we start fighting and killing the individuals who come forth to try and help.

There are plenty of things I believe that many of you would call preposterous, or begin yelling and verbally abusing me for it. It is simply you unable to escape the way of the group. Those folks would make a perfect sheep for Hitler in his time.

Just thoughts and ramblings. I claim insanity.

That's okay Mojo, we won't hold it against you. Even good wholesome atheists like Nietzsche died in mental institutions.

"Nietzsche is dead"

-GOD-

Yes, and if they thought Galileo was mad for questioning old paradigms, I wonder what they thought about Isaiah, 1,950 years before Galileo.

"Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told to you from the beginning? Have you not understood the foundations of the earth? It is He that sits above the circle of the earth..." Isaiah 40:21-22 (the earth is round)

Or Job, written about a thousand years before Isaiah:

"He stretches out the north over empty space; He suspends the earth over nothing" Job 26:7 (Gravity)

These must have been concepts impossible to grasp back in those days, had not God revealed it.

I understand what you mean. We shouldn't be lemmings, but challenge everything called 'fact'.

Mojo, you can't judge all by a few. Religious people do outrageous things in the name of God, but the truth is God never sent those people to blow up abortion clinics in his name, and what not. God said to love everyone. If God meant for sinners to die, Jesus would have done it, but his will was and is for us to live an abundant life, and live as kings, unto him. Jesus didn't kill us, and he had every right to do so, instead Jesus saved us and allow us to kill him, that's DEEP LOVE. People who say God sent them to kill, and what not, are liars. God said YOU WILL BE HATED AND KILLED FOR MY SAKE, not YOU WILL KILL FOR MY SAKE. In fact, Jesus said when they BEAT YOU, for my sake, TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. In other words, be like Paul and John, in the book of Acts, be like Jesus who took it all without fighting back, and count yourself BLESSED and count it all JOY that you are able to suffer as Jesus did. Not to make other people suffer. I'm sorry you've gotten that from the ways of the people who claim christianity and live the most ungodly lifestyle without repenting, but you shouldn't look at people, rather at Christ, Jesus. I honestly can't tell you what in the world those 'christian' are thinking that commit such acts, but they will answer to God, without a doubt. They are WHY God gets blamed for things he doesn't do, and God will NOT be mocked. They WILL answer to him. Killing people isn't glorifying God.

I Love you, But read God's word, and pray for those who claim to Love God, and sin against him.

I wouldn't question the reliability of Christianity on those grounds.

Consider them as two different things.

The pure religion and its teachings, without man.

And man's interpretation and agenda. Most of the time this is where people become presumptuous, arrogant and violent.

I think man's perversion of religion is probably one of the biggest factors holding us all back from bigger things.

This is where all of the invisible danger comes from. How man can break into groups and start promoting their agenda through organizations like the church.

Ah, the complaint isn't towards god or abortion clinic bombers. Those are small fry. It is society as a whole who encourage each other to believe and feel good about something. Middle eastern society believes what they are doing is good, and because of the distances they don't have much contradiction, or the ones they do have is small enough to be disregarded as foolishness. Same here with Christian folks encouraging Christian folks. If you, as an individual, approach the groups who believe in the bombing, they as a group will overpower you.

The things done back in the 1940s was a result of people, believing they were doing the right thing by the killings, and today folks will frequently find a passage in "the word" to justify their killing. As "the word" is mass produced, it is available to a large audience, who in turn happen to be their own group, with their own set of beliefs that certainly differ from my own. That is why you try to convince me of your beliefs, rather than allow me to continue with my own.

I guess the whole point of this topic is to point out as individuals people are interesting for the most part but lack power, while groups are more powerful and because of their composition, wield power irresponsibly.

quote:Originally posted by drBOX:

I wouldn't question the reliability of Christianity on those grounds.

Consider them as two different things.

The pure religion and its teachings, without man.

And man's interpretation and agenda. Most of the time this is where people become presumptuous, arrogant and violent.

I think man's perversion of religion is probably one of the biggest factors holding us all back from bigger things.

This is where all of the invisible danger comes from. How man can break into groups and start promoting their agenda through organizations like the church.



I can't argue with that.. Good post.

quote:Originally posted by Mojo Hojo:

Ah, the complaint isn't towards god or abortion clinic bombers. Those are small fry. It is society as a whole who encourage each other to believe and feel good about something. Middle eastern society believes what they are doing is good, and because of the distances they don't have much contradiction, or the ones they do have is small enough to be disregarded as foolishness. Same here with Christian folks encouraging Christian folks. If you, as an individual, approach the groups who believe in the bombing, they as a group will overpower you.

The things done back in the 1940s was a result of people, believing they were doing the right thing by the killings, and today folks will frequently find a passage in "the word" to justify their killing. As "the word" is mass produced, it is available to a large audience, who in turn happen to be their own group, with their own set of beliefs that certainly differ from my own. That is why you try to convince me of your beliefs, rather than allow me to continue with my own.

I guess the whole point of this topic is to point out as individuals people are interesting for the most part but lack power, while groups are more powerful and because of their composition, wield power irresponsibly.

I understand your post completely and agree with you on most points. But you said it yourself that people believe what they are doing is right. I mean, this obvious. It's not like how on the cartoon GI Joe, the enemy, Cobra, knew they were bad and reveled in it. In the real world, everyone thinks they are the good guy.

Now, I know abortion and abortion clinic bombers aren't the point of the topic... But it's a good reference, so we'll use it.

Here is my stance. Killing abortion doctors because they kill babies isn't how to accomplish God's will... That is obviously hypocritical. 7 people have been killed in abortion clinic bombings, whic outrage Pro-choice followers.... As well, it should. But 140 million children have been murdered in the name of 'sexual freedom', whatever the hell that means. Should not there be some outrage?

So, who is right? Who is wrong? Is there a little bit of both in each camp? How often are we right? How often are we wrong? How do we know what right and wrong is? I can tell you that the answers supercede mere feelings and they are above our decision on the matter. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Thanks for listening.

Talk amongst yourselves. Discuss.

quote:Originally posted by Mojo Hojo:

I guess the whole point of this topic is to point out as individuals people are interesting for the most part but lack power, while groups are more powerful and because of their composition, wield power irresponsibly.

I feel you on this, I think, sorta,

Anyway here's my point.

I think on the topic of religion and man, there should be a much greater stress put on the individual and his personal relationship to god, and to his beliefs.

Today, people don't know what they believe. And even so there is arrogance and biggotry.

I think that at our base levels, we are corrupt and ultimately destructive narcissist beings. I think that in relationship to something as large and fundamental to our psyche as religion, history has told us again and again stories of war, death, and destruction in the name of jihad or holy war. Nothing's going to change in that regard.

I just think the arrogance of it, of i'm right you're wrong or let's tame the savages, is outrageous. Maybe this is evidence of our reptilian, 'look out for #1' brain.

BLAH, bottom line, I think that the individual who is able to reflect and meditate on everything is going to be more sober and ultimately make better decisions than the large group which has lost all inhibitions to remain part of the group, and to preserve that group.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

That's okay Mojo, we won't hold it against you. Even good wholesome atheists like Nietzsche died in mental institutions.

"Nietzsche is dead"

-GOD-



That's kinda a low blow; the poor guy had brain cancer, it's rather hard to keep your sanity with a tumor eating your brain.

quote:Originally posted by Shadout Mapes:

That's kinda a low blow; the poor guy had brain cancer, it's rather hard to keep your sanity with a tumor eating your brain.

The man made bold statements in tyranny when he was quite well. Aside from that, I've known people with brain cancer who didn't go insane as a result. He went insane because he was so far from any kind of purpose in life. It's a fact that those who have no motivation in life, suffer from depression. And the life he led was one of a dejected soul, lost in a world he created without God. At any given time he could have changed his dispostion.

It's an unoriginal play on a famous line by Nietzsche.

Congrats that you know people with brain cancer who haven't gone insane, I guess that means no one with brain cancer will ever go insane. Speaking of insane, at least he didn't claim God told him to drown his children. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

While I'm here I should point out that the earth isn't hung on nothing and Isaiah doesn't support a spherical earth. But that is another topic, it would be nice if we could stay on the OP.

quote:Originally posted by Shadout Mapes:

That's kinda a low blow; the poor guy had brain cancer, it's rather hard to keep your sanity with a tumor eating your brain.

He was in the late stages of syphilis, not brain cancer. Christ, people, get it right.

Regardless: Eppur si muove.

Nietzsche did not have syphilis. (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/05/1051987657451.html?oneclick=true) He went insane due to a slow-growing brain tumor. He wrote an autobiography a few months before his collapse which seem to indicate him as being quite far from having no purpose or motivation in life, but rather how incredibly grateful he was for his entire life, and how beautiful he conceived it. Stop talking out of your ass, hyro, you can't hope to pin down a philosopher without ever having opened one of his books.

^^No, but Edgar Allen Poe did.

"...you can hardly blame the current incarnation of the church for the mistakes of the old." -Dogma

quote:Originally posted by Shadout Mapes:

Nietzsche did not have syphilis. (ht tp://www.s mh.com.au/ articles/2 003/05/05/ 1051987657 451.html?o neclick=tr ue) He went insane due to a slow-growing brain tumor.

My mistake.

Edit: quote:Stop talking out of your ass, hyro, you can't hope to pin down a philosopher without ever having opened one of his books.

I second this notion. Even a cursory reading of Thus Spake Zarathustra shows that Nietzsche was a fellow with a grand and visceral love for life.

[This message has been edited by literary syphilis (edited 11-08-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Shadout Mapes:

Nietzsche did not have syphilis. (ht tp://www.s mh.com.au/ articles/2 003/05/05/ 1051987657 451.html?o neclick=tr ue) He went insane due to a slow-growing brain tumor. He wrote an autobiography a few months before his collapse which seem to indicate him as being quite far from having no purpose or motivation in life, but rather how incredibly grateful he was for his entire life, and how beautiful he conceived it. Stop talking out of your ass, hyro, you can't hope to pin down a philosopher without ever having opened one of his books.

Um, I never said he had Syphilis... And I have read his literary works.. That's the precise reason why I don't ascribe to his beliefs.

quote:Originally posted by Mojo Hojo:

I strongly question the reliability of Christianity when ... things done to Galileo for suggesting something people didn't agree with.

So people are assholes, so christianity is invalid. Hmm. Interesting.

Just because the average christian is scum, doesn't mean that Christianity is wrong. Or does it? I propose an inquisition into the matter.

And your heartfelt example? Galileo had it easy. please, you never hear of the inquisitions, the crusades, or the witch trials. Don't none of you prodestant niggers go blame that on the Catholic Church, that shit happened long before Luther.

And Nietsche, unique lover of life, or sad old boring academic, who never partied, never had a good time, never did any of the stuff he advocated. He sat at home, writing about vitality, and creating your own meanings, when others were out actually doing the things he mentioned.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Um, I never said he had Syphilis... And I have read his literary works.. That's the precise reason why I don't ascribe to his beliefs.

I said he had syphilis. He was addressing the both of us in the same paragraph. Threw me off for a moment too.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

I said he had syphilis. He was addressing the both of us in the same paragraph. Threw me off for a moment too.

Ah... He really should clarify.

Kierkegaard.... Now this is a philosopher that I can ascribe to. Anyone else concur?

Discuss........

I love Kierkegaard. When I was still flirting with the concepts of Christianity, Kierkegaard was the man. Like a modern day Tertullian, but depressed and Scandinavian.

(Bunnies, Ducks and One Great Dane (http://tinyurl.com/9ee5v) - a very cool reflection on Fear and Trembling).

That said, Albert Camus remains the sexiest existentialist.

Like a modern day Tertullian, but depressed and Scandinavian.

I think it's a prerequisite that if you're Scandinavian, youre automatically born into depression.

One can't help but wonder... I have seen a few too many cases of this,

Mom Admits Killing Child To Rid Her Of Demon

Slain Girl's Father Faces Judge on Nov. 16

ATLANTA -- A woman accused of helping her husband kill their daughter because they believed she was demonic has pleaded guilty to murder.

Valerie Carey, 29, has been sentenced to life in prison for the child's death at a downtown Atlanta motel last year. She's agreed to testify against her husband as part of a plea bargain. Investigators said Christopher Carey stabbed the child with a knife until it broke.

Police found 8-year-old Quimani Carey on the floor of a extended stay motel room after finding the couple walking naked down a busy street in freezing temperatures. They were carrying their two other children.

Quimani’s arms had been broken, she had been strangled and she had been stabbed several times, prosecutors said. Authorities said pages from the Bible had been torn out a indicated that the girl's father believed she was demonic and had been implanted with a chip that sent signals to the planet Jupiter, which would allow the family to be tracked.

The woman pleaded guilty to several charges, including malice murder, felony murder, aggravated assault and first- and second-degree cruelty to children. During the court proceeding, testimony indicated that the man and woman both suffered from dual psychosis, a condition in which they both believed and saw each other's delusions.

Valerie Carey will be eligible for parole after serving a set number of years in the death of her daughter. Quimani was killed Jan. 19, 2004.

Prosecutors said they were told by relatives that the mother had suffered from a history of mental illness.

"We thought the rapture would take the four of us to heaven," a tearful Valerie Carey said to the judge during sentencing. "But I ended up in jail and a mental hospital. Everything I thought was real in my life proves to be false."

Prosecutors had recommended life in prison with the possibility of parole for the mother and life in prison with no parole for the father.

Christopher Carey, 31, remains jailed without bond and faces a death penalty trial if he does not agree to a plea deal.

It was not clear how long Valerie Carey would have to serve before she is eligible for parole. The judge ordered that she continue to receive mental counseling while incarcerated.

I also recall a family in India who did this. And in regards to this story, another source reported they believed they would be taken away to a planet filled with red dragons, and were holding up their arms awaiting to go.

My main dislike is foolish people who deny their opportunities to learn something better than killing folks. I'm fine with the folks who communicate with (insert diety name) on a positive level, but when they begin to break the laws of the land, they are bringing their world unto the lives of those who do not wish to have the crap happen to them.

Meh..



Edit: Found it!

Valerie Carey believed that her family would be transported to a plant inhabited by red dragons after Quimani was killed, and spread out her arms waiting to fly off, according to one of her attorneys, Susan Wardell.

Source (http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/politics/13058839.htm)

[This message has been edited by Mojo Hojo (edited 11-09-2005).]

T.S. Eliot? C.S. Lewis? Yea/Nay?

It's sounds as if the mother had the demon.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

T.S. Eliot? C.S. Lewis? Yea/Nay?

I love T. S. Eliot's poetry (I have a collection upstairs), but I can't say I know much about his theological leanings other than the fact that he was an Anglo-Catholic.

Ditto for C. S. Lewis: all I know is that he was a liberal (by the standards of the day) Anglican apologist, as well as a mediocre author. I would like to read the Screwtape Letters though.

[This message has been edited by literary syphilis (edited 11-09-2005).]