The Middle Ages is a stretch of a thousand years called mediæval and feudal, words that are like the word dinosaur—they are used pejoratively. They mean backward, barbaric, primitive or, at the least, old fashioned—the antithesis of our clever and sophisticated modern times. The reason is that in that thousand years, crime, vice, violence, drunkenness, disease, mortality, brutality, exploitation and injustice were immeasurably worse than before or after. Yet, they are the time when the church was at its most powerful, when cathedrals were built, bishops lived in palaces and many of the male population were churchmen—monks, priests, bishops, friars, templars, hospitallers, priors, lay brothers.

The Middle Ages extend from about 500 AD, when Paganism and the Roman Empire went extinct, to about 1500 AD. The half of this period from about 500 to 1100 are the Dark Ages. The Christian excuse for the Dark Ages is that the degradation of Europe was due to the barbarian invasions, which it took the Church several centuries to correct. The barbarians who supposedly caused the Dark Ages through their invasions were not only Christians already, they were not ignorant. Though “barbarian” to us means savage and ignorant, that is largely Church propaganda.

Because the Middle Ages have the redeeming feature of mediæval art, the glorious cathedrals, illuminated missals, wonderful tapestries and exquisite paintings, all of which are important but come from the latter half of the Middle Ages, the church pretends it pulled Europe through the Dark Ages. It ignores the truth—the church was largely responsible for them. One of the ironies of life—but only for Christians—is that the barbarian invasions and the Dark Ages coincided with the application of God’s plan to Europe.

The feudal order was meant to reflect heaven on earth—obedience to God via one’s superiors. Children obeyed their parents, their parents were their lord’s vassals and had to obey him, the lord was the king’s vassal, laymen obeyed the clergy, monks obeyed their abbot, clergy and laymen obeyed bishops who themselves were feudal lords, bishops and kings obeyed the Pope—at least in theory. Originality and creativity had to await a commission from the church or a lord, otherwise it was anathema. The church had created itself as a reborn Imperium Romanum with the Pope as its emperor and Latin as its language.

hmm... yet society fluorished under the sinning Roman empire which murdered Jesus, and had no Christianity whatsoever for hundreds of years, and society now is booming as it has never before, does god punish us on earth for our faith?? discuss.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

"Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation." Psalm 91:16-16 NIV



Why weren't they saved back then? They had faith in god and recognizedd and loved him, yet in that time there is evidence that god did not love the people back, why is that?

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

Why weren't they saved back then? They had faith in god and recognizedd and loved him, yet in that time there is evidence that god did not love the people back, why is that?

The method for salvation was not in place at that time... suficing that you are talking about Christianity.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

The method for salvation was not in place at that time... suficing that you are talking about Christianity.

"Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation." Psalm 91:16-16 NIV



This quote was written in the bible 2000 years ago well before the middle ages, this quote from god as presented in the undisputable bible sets forth three conditions:

1. You must love god

2. You must call upon god

3. You must recognize god's name

all of which were met by the people of the middle ages more than in any other time period. For meeting these requirements god sets forth that he will aid followers with several things.

1. I will rescue him (could mean in this life or the after life)

2. I will protect him (In this time period it does not seem followers were protected from disease, cruelty,... the list before)

3. I will be with him in trouble (where was he for all the human rights abuses that occurred to followers?)

4. I will deliver him and honor him (probably means the after life)

5. With long life I will satisfy him and show him my salvation (Why were life spans some of the shortest in all of recorded history amongst believers?)

Seems to me this method for salvation set up long ago in the bible, the undisputable writing of god, is not being met as god described.

See, this is what happens when you only read parts of the bible. One part talks about Judas hanging himself, anotherJesus is quoted as saying "Go thou and do likewise"....

You get my point...

The "salvation method" in the OT time was that if you were a godly person, you got to go to "Abraham's bosom". Later on in the NT, it says that Jesus went there and preached to those people.

The salvation method was still the same but no one in the OT could go to heaven until after Jesus died.

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

"Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation." Psalm 91:16-16 NIV

Actually the Psalms were written 3 thousand years ago. I have to get going, but I'll join the discussion in a few hours from now.



This quote was written in the bible 2000 years ago well before the middle ages, this quote from god as presented in the undisputable bible sets forth three conditions:

1. You must love god

2. You must call upon god

3. You must recognize god's name

all of which were met by the people of the middle ages more than in any other time period. For meeting these requirements god sets forth that he will aid followers with several things.

1. I will rescue him (could mean in this life or the after life)

2. I will protect him (In this time period it does not seem followers were protected from disease, cruelty,... the list before)

3. I will be with him in trouble (where was he for all the human rights abuses that occurred to followers?)

4. I will deliver him and honor him (probably means the after life)

5. With long life I will satisfy him and show him my salvation (Why were life spans some of the shortest in all of recorded history amongst believers?)

Seems to me this method for salvation set up long ago in the bible, the undisputable writing of god, is not being met as god described.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

See, this is what happens when you only read parts of the bible. One part talks about Judas hanging himself, anotherJesus is quoted as saying "Go thou and do likewise"....

You get my point...

The "salvation method" in the OT time was that if you were a godly person, you got to go to "Abraham's bosom". Later on in the NT, it says that Jesus went there and preached to those people.

The salvation method was still the same but no one in the OT could go to heaven until after Jesus died.



Okay your example sets forth a reason why before the New Testament/Jesus' time people may not have been saved in this same way, but nothing in this thread is discussing that far back, it is talking about the dark ages or middle ages between 500 CE and 1500 CE

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

When I was 11, a friend gave me a gold cross. It was the ugliest thing you ever saw. It was gold plated and a strange design. It had a blue opaque type rock thing in the middle. I kept it for whatever reasons. At that point in my life I pulled out that cross and held on to it as my heart ached with so much pain I could not tolerate it. I didn't know what I was doing but I knew I needed to hang onto that cross. For over two weeks I was in agonizing heart break and it was getting worse by the day.

I started to remember a friend in the Marines who shared His faith with me about Jesus Christ. I remembered going to church as a little kid and being put in the Sunday school class. All of those things meant nothing to me until this moment.

It was the moment I will never forget. In an instant I felt a great burdon removed from me. All the pain and aches in my heart left as I felt in my spirit a warm embrace. I never heard a voice nor did I ever see a form or figure but, at that moment I knew I would never have to worry about being loved again. God revealed himself to me for the first time.

I was amazed at this experience. I had no more tears, no more pain, no more anxiety, no more fears and I was able to go outside again. I found a friend who invited me to church and there I cried in front of everybody as a I said to God, "I can do nothing but, ruin this life you gave me - I want to live your way."

I buried my face in my hands as every tear drop released me from the chains of sin and death. It was like God was wringing my pain out through my tears like water from a sponge.

.................................................. ......................................

God once again pulled me out of the fire and gave me another chance. I surrendered to Him again and moved out of that apartment into a friends house and grew spiritualy. Since then I was baptized on February 10 2002 and found a true bible following church.



God has given us no writings to explain any changes in his godly policies regarding how he treats mankinds since the middle ages, yet he revealed himself to Sig_Intel as he explained in the quote above, and led Sig_Intel out of his tough times. However, god did not do this to the avid followers of the lord during the middle ages. Why would this be?? Nobody has explained this to me?? Do you not have any reasons?? Is Sig_Intel wrong in his reasons to believe in god in your mind??

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

The Middle Ages is a stretch of a thousand years called mediæval and feudal, words that are like the word dinosaur—they are used pejoratively. They mean backward, barbaric, primitive or, at the least, old fashioned—the antithesis of our clever and sophisticated modern times. The reason is that in that thousand years, crime, vice, violence, drunkenness, disease, mortality, brutality, exploitation and injustice were immeasurably worse than before or after. Yet, they are the time when the church was at its most powerful, when cathedrals were built, bishops lived in palaces and many of the male population were churchmen—monks, priests, bishops, friars, templars, hospitallers, priors, lay brothers.

The Middle Ages extend from about 500 AD, when Paganism and the Roman Empire went extinct, to about 1500 AD. The half of this period from about 500 to 1100 are the Dark Ages. The Christian excuse for the Dark Ages is that the degradation of Europe was due to the barbarian invasions, which it took the Church several centuries to correct. The barbarians who supposedly caused the Dark Ages through their invasions were not only Christians already, they were not ignorant. Though “barbarian” to us means savage and ignorant, that is largely Church propaganda.

Because the Middle Ages have the redeeming feature of mediæval art, the glorious cathedrals, illuminated missals, wonderful tapestries and exquisite paintings, all of which are important but come from the latter half of the Middle Ages, the church pretends it pulled Europe through the Dark Ages. It ignores the truth—the church was largely responsible for them. One of the ironies of life—but only for Christians—is that the barbarian invasions and the Dark Ages coincided with the application of God’s plan to Europe.

The feudal order was meant to reflect heaven on earth—obedience to God via one’s superiors. Children obeyed their parents, their parents were their lord’s vassals and had to obey him, the lord was the king’s vassal, laymen obeyed the clergy, monks obeyed their abbot, clergy and laymen obeyed bishops who themselves were feudal lords, bishops and kings obeyed the Pope—at least in theory. Originality and creativity had to await a commission from the church or a lord, otherwise it was anathema. The church had created itself as a reborn Imperium Romanum with the Pope as its emperor and Latin as its language.

hmm... yet society fluorished under the sinning Roman empire which murdered Jesus, and had no Christianity whatsoever for hundreds of years, and society now is booming as it has never before, does god punish us on earth for our faith?? discuss.

What a big pile of bull shit!

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

God has given us no writings to explain any changes in his godly policies regarding how he treats mankinds since the middle ages, yet he revealed himself to Sig_Intel as he explained in the quote above, and led Sig_Intel out of his tough times. However, god did not do this to the avid followers of the lord during the middle ages. Why would this be?? Nobody has explained this to me?? Do you not have any reasons?? Is Sig_Intel wrong in his reasons to believe in god in your mind??

because god likes sinners. for some reason, god would rather have a sinner wake up one day and proclaim his life to god, than someone who has been faithful to god all his life.

just look at the way the pharisees are depicted in the new testament vs sinners

God does not reward or punish.

God is about love and creativity, and loves us all unconditionally.

so why is it necessary that we subscribe to a mass-produced way of life?

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

so why is it necessary that we subscribe to a mass-produced way of life?

It isn't.

cool

The simple answer is, that is he not real.

Therefore, there was no punishing or rewarding for "faith" or lack their of.

People just like to attribute success to "God".

For example, I have heard people who have won the lottery "thank god" for making them win.

He DID NOT win the lottery for anybody! People confuse luck or hard work with god.

Or celebrities singer/actors who win an award for their talents, "thanking god" for winning them the award. I suppose all those years of acting school, training, and experience in several movies ahd abosolutely nothing to do with their success.

It's just ridiculous. Anything I have achieved in my life is because I worked my ass off.

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

God has given us no writings to explain any changes in his godly policies regarding how he treats mankinds since the middle ages, yet he revealed himself to Sig_Intel as he explained in the quote above, and led Sig_Intel out of his tough times. However, god did not do this to the avid followers of the lord during the middle ages. Why would this be?? Nobody has explained this to me?? Do you not have any reasons?? Is Sig_Intel wrong in his reasons to believe in god in your mind??

Throughout the various era's described in the bible we see many different covenents between God and man. For example the first one is between Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. From there it goes on through the many generations concerning Job, Noah, Moses, Abraham and so on.

Throughout the history of the world God had a different covenents through his various prophets which came for those in their era. Judgement was handed down on all of these eras to those who didn't conform to whatever that covenent was.

God didn't always "dwell in the hearts of men" This change in the "temple" occured when Jesus was nailed to the cross. It is the completion of the covenent between God and Abraham. This allowed for the cleansing of sins so that the Holy Spirit can be within us.

Prior to this God dwelled in man built temples which only allowed for specialy selected priests to give offerings for their "tribe" for the atonement of sin. This is the covenent of the Levitical law through Moses.

Going beyond that is the era I believe you are talking about, ie the middle ages. The explanation to your answer lies in the book of Genesis as it explains all things prior to the covenent with the Jews which He decared as "a prophet to the nations."

Hope that helps. God reveals Himself to us today through His Spirit in our hearts and minds. Whereas before, He revealed Himself through His spirit to priests of the law only. This is a testiment to the ongoing contention between God and man. He gives us chance after chance after chance..etc