As we all know there are always countless topics here about providing proof of [a] God's existence. As a result of these posts, many of the My God regulars get pissed with having to provide the same responses over and over.

Forget what WE want proved, my question is this: Does God want to prove anything to us?

I'm well aware that according to Christian (and other popular religious) beliefs that God wants us to know Him. He wants us to love Him, worship Him, pray to Him, etc. But does He want to prove anything to us?

I'm not exactly sure of what I mean by what He could want to prove to us. Maybe He doesn't even feel that He needs to prove anything to us(?)

Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 11-13-2005).]

What else can I say? (http://www.synclinalllun.net/temp/what.mp3)

Snoopy, I'm not really sure what the fuck that was but I love you all the more for it.

You're probably one of the few people on totse that could not answer a question at all and still have my adoration and respect.

If God (the Judeo-Christian one) were to provide evidence for it's existence it would negate the reasons for faith.

If God is responsible for the entire universe, he owes nothing to you. Not even proof. There's a peculiar kind of savage beauty to that doctrine - a warranted, icily aloof arrogance on the part of God; the misguided and simple-minded romantic individualism of humanity.

You may be damned without him, but you're all the more beautiful for it.

Bah, I'm rambling.

If God (the Judeo-Christian one) were to provide evidence for it's existence it would negate the reasons for faith.

I thought of that while typing my initial post, and that's not exactly what I'm getting at (although I'm not sure I know what I'm getting at). When I say Him proving something, I don't mean His existence altogether.

Let's say for a moment that there is a 100% guarantee God exists. If that were the case what would He want us to know? Perhaps a response from a Christian poster would be more appropriate for my question, but then again all of the responses would be conjecture at best.

The proof of god's existence is that there is no proof at all.

^ I fail to see how that's relevant to the question.

"Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." Matthew 12:37-39

From the words of Jesus the sign of Jonah is the miraclous sign that proves God's existence. However, since the condition of a person's spirit can not be proven by science there is a problem with proof.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Matthew 15:17-20

BY this testimony we see that the fruit talked about here is a person's deeds or the outcome of what comes from the condion of ones heart. These two verses go hand in hand.

The proof of God's existence lies in the heart and mind of a changed person. That person once stole, cursed in vain, hated, was full of anger and self-servitude. In essence that person was an enemy to God by living a life of spirtual lawlessness. By the saving grace of God, he was brought to life spiritually and began living a new life of knowing and loving God through the fruit of their conversion.

This is the evidence of God's existence. When you see it happen first hand you are awe struck and amazed. God is great!

^ So what do child molesting priests prove?

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

"Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." Matthew 12:37-39

From the words of Jesus the sign of Jonah is the miraclous sign that proves God's existence. However, since the condition of a person's spirit can not be proven by science there is a problem with proof.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Matthew 15:17-20

BY this testimony we see that the fruit talked about here is a person's deeds or the outcome of what comes from the condion of ones heart. These two verses go hand in hand.

The proof of God's existence lies in the heart and mind of a changed person. That person once stole, cursed in vain, hated, was full of anger and self-servitude. In essence that person was an enemy to God by living a life of spirtual lawlessness. By the saving grace of God, he was brought to life spiritually and began living a new life of knowing and loving God through the fruit of their conversion.

This is the evidence of God's existence. When you see it happen first hand you are awe struck and amazed. God is great!



I don't really see how you make these connections. I think that what Jesus refers to by mentioning Jonah's sign, is his resurrection 3 days after his death. How does this relate to "the condition of a person's spirit"?

You also seem to imply that God is inaccessible if you aren't a thief/liar/egoist and that you can't escape these states without supernatural aid. There's nothing connecting those two verses with this.

On topic, the christian God surely has lots to prove. This doesn't mean that we require a "miraculous sign", but we do require "good fruit". Since what we get from christianity these past 2000 years is mostly "bad fruit", maybe a miracle is in order. It doesn't have to be too dramatic...a binary message starting in the 777 millionth digit of pi would do http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

I don't really see how you make these connections. I think that what Jesus refers to by mentioning Jonah's sign, is his resurrection 3 days after his death. How does this relate to "the condition of a person's spirit"?

"In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." John 3:3 NIV

The death, burial and resurection of Jesus paved the way for the rest of us. You are right. The sign of Jonah is a symbol of what Jesus endured. But what was really being told is the condition of being born again.

When a person is born again they start life anew. They no longer live to please the world but they live to please God. Within this new desire comes a new way of living. This is the condition of a changed spirit.

quote:You also seem to imply that God is inaccessible if you aren't a thief/liar/egoist and that you can't escape these states without supernatural aid. There's nothing connecting those two verses with this.

God is with us all the time. If a thief/liar/egoist decided to turn to God and pray to Him then that person would most likely not be a thief/liar/egoist much longer. However, these conditions are strongholds within our own hearts desire. Which means it doesn't happen over night in some cases!

quote:

On topic, the christian God surely has lots to prove. This doesn't mean that we require a "miraculous sign", but we do require "good fruit". Since what we get from christianity these past 2000 years is mostly "bad fruit", maybe a miracle is in order. It doesn't have to be too dramatic...a binary message starting in the 777 millionth digit of pi would do http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Just imagine if you can, A man in your neighborhood who can not control his drinking and driving habbit. He has been caught many times but he continues to do it. He has got into small accidents like falling off the road or hitting road signs but nothing major. Until one day. You are driving home late at night from a family get together. Your loved ones are in the back seat, sound a sleep and your significant other is staring off into the darkness.

Then out of NOWHERE!! THE GUY WHO HAS A DRINKING PROBLEM IS COMING AT YOU!! OH LORD YOU THINK--THOSE HEADLIGHTS ARE BRIGHT!! THEY ARE COMING RIGHT AT ME!! AT AN INSTANT he dims his lights and passes by.... This is because that morning he found God instead of a bottle of booze. At that moment God blessed you and you didn't even know it nor will you ever know it. That's just the way He works.

If you want to know who is behaving badly in this world there are many more prime examples in the culture of atheism that would over shadow the Church in great contrast.







[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 11-14-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

^ So what do child molesting priests prove?



They were serving themselves and not God.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

The proof of God's existence lies in the heart and mind of a changed person. That person once stole, cursed in vain, hated, was full of anger and self-servitude. In essence that person was an enemy to God by living a life of spirtual lawlessness. By the saving grace of God, he was brought to life spiritually and began living a new life of knowing and loving God through the fruit of their conversion.

This is the evidence of God's existence.



Then I said "What do child molesting priests prove?"

and you: quote:They were serving themselves and not God.



That is circular logic, which goes back to my original post that said: "The proof of gods existence is that there is no proof at all."



[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 11-14-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:



That is circular logic, which goes back to my original post that said: "The proof of gods existence is that there is no proof at all."



It would be if we just blindly accept someone is who they claim to be. But, you would have to assume that those priests spoken of were in the condition of salvation in the first place. Which by their deeds they have shown that they are not. In other words they are like the story of a wolf in sheeps skin.

The scripture about the fruit of deed is given to us to discern who that teaches among us Has the "Truth" on their heart. You can not say I follow God and then turn and do the opposite of His will.

I hope that helps clear up the "circular logic"



[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 11-15-2005).]

the definition of circular "logic" is that it will never be cleared up.

i still stand by the "no proof or measurable effect means no existance"

prove me wrong. you can't, all you have is "faith" a delusion perpetuated by the people around you who are also deluded.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

It would be if we just blindly accept someone is who they claim to be. But, you would have to assume that those priests spoken of were in the condition of salvation in the first place. Which by their deeds they have shown that they are not. In other words they are like the story of a wolf in sheeps skin.

The scripture about the fruit of deed is given to us to discern who that teaches among us Has the "Truth" on their heart. You can not say I follow God and then turn and do the opposite of His will.

I hope that helps clear up the "circular logic"



You proved gods existence by assmung god existed, thats circular logic.

"Look at all the good out there, thats proof of god."



"What about all the bad"

"Thats the devil!"

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

the definition of circular "logic" is that it will never be cleared up.

I just have..you just can not accept the evidence.

quote:

i still stand by the "no proof or measurable effect means no existance"

I agree with you but with my own eyes and testimony I have seen proof of measurable effect on ones life that God recreated a person through salvation and repentence.

quote:

prove me wrong. you can't, all you have is "faith" a delusion perpetuated by the people around you who are also deluded.





I've only attempted to point to the evidence of the works of God. It is in the hearts and minds that spills out into actions and deeds. Because you can not see the change in a person nor measure it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I've whitnessed too much to say it's only dillusion.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

You proved gods existence by assmung god existed, thats circular logic.

"Look at all the good out there, thats proof of god."



"What about all the bad"

"Thats the devil!"

I've presented the evidence but you have ignored it. Man's logic and understanding of this world is not adequate to understand God, His plan nor His kingdom. The evidence lies in the unmeasurable by human standards. Your spirit which is governed by the spiritual is measured by your deeds and thoughts and intentions. These are the standards by which the spirit is measured.

I'm not saying that God is illogical but the contrary. His wisdom is far greater then ours. We do not have the perspectives and points of view to see the "big picture". We can only act on what we do know which creates foolishness in the respect of eternity.

Your argument is a cop-out

Maybe it's just that your invisble sky king doesn't exist.

Edit: What evidence?

[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 11-15-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

I've presented the evidence but you have ignored it.

I didn't ignore it, I dismissed it.

quote:Man's logic and understanding of this world is not adequate to understand God, His plan nor His kingdom.

So you are saying god is something that cannot be understood.

quote:The evidence lies in the unmeasurable by human standards. Your spirit which is governed by the spiritual is measured by your deeds and thoughts and intentions. These are the standards by which the spirit is measured.

umeasurable human standards? Are you talking about emotions? ... Those have scientific explanations based on empirical evidence, which has proven to make accurate predictions, hence its reliable. The theory of god makes no predictions that can be measured, therefore its not testable or reliable.



quote:I'm not saying that God is illogical but the contrary. His wisdom is far greater then ours. We do not have the perspectives and points of view to see the "big picture". We can only act on what we do know which creates foolishness in the respect of eternity.

Any you know this how? From reading scripture.. Or did god actually tell you these things? Your entire arguemnt is circular, you to claim it's logical by using more circular logic.



[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 11-15-2005).]

Is it possible for a christian to talk about god without referencing his book of fables?

quote:Originally posted by xcarc:

Is it possible for a christian to talk about god without referencing his book of fables?

I'm going to say it's impossible, due to the fact that the Holy Bible is really the only point of reference that Christians have to connect them with God. Without the Good Book, they would not be able to back up every debate with the "because my Bible told me so" answer.

Without this text, the memes would have faded into oblivion by now. Word of mouth is powerful, but word of mouth accompanied with an ancient text that has been interpreted and written in just about every language known to mankind really propagates this particular mind virus.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

Your argument is a cop-out

Maybe it's just that your invisble sky king doesn't exist.

Edit: What evidence?



The evidence is in the heart of a changed man. I can not prove it because there is no scientific scale or measure to weigh the amount of love in ones heart. However, the measurement is to look at the deeds and the outcome of the life of a man who came out of spiritual death to spiritual life. I can not help you beyond this point. It's for you to accept or reject and it appears that you have rejected it. Is your mission now to stamp out the joy one has found in following God ?

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:



Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

I've presented the evidence but you have ignored it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't ignore it, I dismissed it.

What else can be said?

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man's logic and understanding of this world is not adequate to understand God, His plan nor His kingdom.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you are saying god is something that cannot be understood.



No that is not what I'm saying. You have to first walk through the door before you can get in the house. In other words you have to first believe it before you can see it.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The evidence lies in the unmeasurable by human standards. Your spirit which is governed by the spiritual is measured by your deeds and thoughts and intentions. These are the standards by which the spirit is measured.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

umeasurable human standards? Are you talking about emotions? ... Those have scientific explanations based on empirical evidence, which has proven to make accurate predictions, hence its reliable. The theory of god makes no predictions that can be measured, therefore its not testable or reliable.

No I'm not talking about emotions. I'm talking about conditions and states of the inner man. As for proving the existence of emotions I have no doubt it can be seen on a scope or tested through electromagnetic waves. But, who can measure the force of life? Is there a scale? Because it can't be proven by science then it doesn't exist? Do you see the weakness in founding your understanding of life on measurable things. Not all things are measurable.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not saying that God is illogical but the contrary. His wisdom is far greater then ours. We do not have the perspectives and points of view to see the "big picture". We can only act on what we do know which creates foolishness in the respect of eternity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any you know this how? From reading scripture.. Or did god actually tell you these things? Your entire arguemnt is circular, you to claim it's logical by using more circular logic.

I know this from personal experience and just paying attention...reading the scripture just acknowledges what I've seen. It's like reading the directions after trying to put something together.

The only thing that makes my arguement circluar is your rejection of what I have presented. There is proof but, you are unable to see it. What more is there to say? I can't force you to see it.



[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 11-15-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xcarc:

Is it possible for a christian to talk about god without referencing his book of fables?

I've been doing my best not to and just go by personal experience but, like a baseball game it is not possible to put down the rule book.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I'm going to say it's impossible, due to the fact that the Holy Bible is really the only point of reference that Christians have to connect them with God. Without the Good Book, they would not be able to back up every debate with the "because my Bible told me so" answer.

Without this text, the memes would have faded into oblivion by now. Word of mouth is powerful, but word of mouth accompanied with an ancient text that has been interpreted and written in just about every language known to mankind really propagates this particular mind virus.



so what standards or morality do you propose we live by? Relativism? Should I go with something that is time tested over centuries or your view that has lasted only [enter your age here] years at best?



The words written in the bible have been with us for hundreds/thousands of years. Whereas, your words written here will last maybe a week or so before they fall into the archives of this website which will likely never to be read again.

I think I will use logic and go with endurance and that which has withstood the test of time.

Are you now going to tell me now that those things that ensure longetivity and peace in life are foolishness?



[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 11-15-2005).]

for a start theres no 'ensurance' about that life led either.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

so what standards or morality do you propose we live by? Relativism? Should I go with something that is time tested over centuries or your view that has lasted only [enter your age here] years at best?



The words written in the bible have been with us for hundreds/thousands of years. Whereas, your words written here will last maybe a week or so before they fall into the archives of this website which will likely never to be read again.

Whoaaaaa, Sig - I think you misinterpreted my post. I was stating that I felt it was impossible to relate God to others without using the text of the Bible. I tried to make it clear in my second paragraph that Christianity might not have survived without the written word (which has been made into different languages and interpretations to fit whatever culture it was seeping into).

quote:

I think I will use logic and go with endurance and that which has withstood the test of time.

Are you now going to tell me now that those things that ensure longetivity and peace in life are foolishness?

Foolishness? Who said anything about foolishness? Re-read my post, please.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

"In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." John 3:3 NIV

The death, burial and resurection of Jesus paved the way for the rest of us. You are right. The sign of Jonah is a symbol of what Jesus endured. But what was really being told is the condition of being born again.

When a person is born again they start life anew. They no longer live to please the world but they live to please God. Within this new desire comes a new way of living. This is the condition of a changed spirit.

Agreed, even though the part about "live to please God" is quite arbitrary. I don't see why pleasing the world and pleasing God are mutually exclusive. It sounds like God is an enemy of the world.

Since we are talking about "proof", at least as much as it is possible in religion, then the "condition of a changed spirit" should be that proof by virtue of example (this is what I would call "witnessing" if the term wasn't used by fundamentalists). The problem with this is (and where science comes in) that there's absolutely no connection between happiness (I think we can agree this is essential if you want your life to be an example for others) and religiousness.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

God is with us all the time. If a thief/liar/egoist decided to turn to God and pray to Him then that person would most likely not be a thief/liar/egoist much longer. However, these conditions are strongholds within our own hearts desire. Which means it doesn't happen over night in some cases!

I agree, but I don't know why you focus on "change" so much. A person can change without God, and also can't God act through someone who doesn't need change?

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

Just imagine if you can, A man in your neighborhood who can not control his drinking and driving habbit. He has been caught many times but he continues to do it. He has got into small accidents like falling off the road or hitting road signs but nothing major. Until one day. You are driving home late at night from a family get together. Your loved ones are in the back seat, sound a sleep and your significant other is staring off into the darkness.

Then out of NOWHERE!! THE GUY WHO HAS A DRINKING PROBLEM IS COMING AT YOU!! OH LORD YOU THINK--THOSE HEADLIGHTS ARE BRIGHT!! THEY ARE COMING RIGHT AT ME!! AT AN INSTANT he dims his lights and passes by.... This is because that morning he found God instead of a bottle of booze. At that moment God blessed you and you didn't even know it nor will you ever know it. That's just the way He works.

If you want to know who is behaving badly in this world there are many more prime examples in the culture of atheism that would over shadow the Church in great contrast.

Maybe you should leave parables to Jesus?

You are quick to attribute everything to God and I am looking for natural causes. In your example, if the drunk guy had killed an innocent family it would be his own fault and the family's demise a tragic accident, but when it is happily avoided, then it is God's will? You have to try harder than this...

Also, I would really like to hear about the supposed "crimes" of the "culture of atheism" that "overshadow" the church's own. If you're gonna use such phrases, you should kindly include at least one example.

LOL you are so brainwashed. They MUST have gotten you while you were young. 100% guaranteed.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

The evidence is in the heart of a changed man. I can not prove it because there is no scientific scale or measure to weigh the amount of love in ones heart. However, the measurement is to look at the deeds and the outcome of the life of a man who came out of spiritual death to spiritual life. I can not help you beyond this point. It's for you to accept or reject and it appears that you have rejected it. Is your mission now to stamp out the joy one has found in following God ?



My mission is to set you free, not obeying because somebody told you to, or from a reward and punishment system, but because you know that it is right. I don't want to stamp out your joy I want to experience the joy of a free thinker who has some morality instilled into him. If you would like to go along with this providing a place where i can Instant message you would be nice because this is a subjective conversation.

You have had spritual death, now you are in spiritual life I want to introduce you to spritual freedom.

So do you have MSN, AIM, Yahoo, Icq etc. that I can talk to you with?



[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 11-18-2005).]

Quick answer--no.

For more information, read What God Wants by Neale Donald Walsh.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

I agree with you but with my own eyes and testimony I have seen proof of measurable effect on ones life that God recreated a person through salvation and repentence.

Often you refer to seeing with your own eyes and through personal experience that God has touched others around you...

You never suggest in any way how and I'm intrigued to learn what exactly do you look for… Are you able to teach me?

If we must question what god wants we must first establish whether or not he exists.