WHEN did you begin to lose your faith. [What events lead up to it.] I don't want to know 'why' because I know I will receive answer like, "After I started to use my brain." I'm just not looking for why. WHEN? What happened? Surely you didn't just wake up one morning, sun was shining, and said, "You know what? God isn't there." Something somewhere happened, and you got offended. Tell me what REALLY lead up to you doubting God, pulling back, and losing faith?



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-13-2005).]

Good post.......

When I was five.

Edit:

To elucidate: being the intellectually precocious child that I was, I'd already ascertained that Santa Claus couldn't logically exist, much to the chagrin of my various aunts ("But it's magic!" they cried. "Magic doesn't exist," I rebutted with glee).

Around that time, another one of my aunts (I have far too many. Want one?) was a practising hardcore Charismatic and offered to usher me into the fold. Still being ostensibly religious (though not without my doubts as to how logical the concept of the Sky-Daddy was), I agreed, and with her help I prayed and allowed Jesus into my heart.

We held hands and recited that silly, fumbling little prayer ("O Father in Heaven, please forgive me of all my sins so that I may have ever-lasting life.") and when we'd finished ("Amen.") I wasn't struck with a feeling of jubilation or glory, the heavens didn't open; I was just struck with the ineffable silence of the universe. The only feeling that I carried away from the experience was that my prayer was utterly lost to the void.

[This message has been edited by literary syphilis (edited 11-13-2005).]

Shellz, I think it's interesting to note that many people who claim themesleves to be apart of the intellegentsia overlook some basic flaws. They leave out anyone not in their caste system of sectarians. Where does this leave the undesirable? So, they naturally gravitate to their own mind, as if they've had the answers all along. This is a dangerous position to be in because it supposes so much from the claimant in a vain display of arrogance.

Most people learned about God in Sunday school class. Much to my chagrin, the ones' that fall away are often those that never went beyond that. Their Scriptural knowledge and spiritual understanding are abysmal, but still they profess so much about something they know nothing about. Why? Because the knowledge of God is seperate from knowledge itself. You and I know that even a child who comprehends little, mentally, can know God. In fact, it's often this accrued knowledge that clouds their spiritual vision.

^Lay off the thesaurus. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) (directed at literary)

To answer your question. I lost my faith when I was in 6th grade. I'm not sure what events lead up to it though. It just seemed like a turning point.

[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 11-13-2005).]

It was a process I would say.. started when I was about 4, pretty much athiest by 8, totallly athiest by 10.

As I began to mature mentally I realized there was a difference between fact and fiction. My logic processors started to work more efficiently and the line between reality and fantasy became clear.

It all comes down to descartes. The only thing we can be absolutely certain of is our own existence, so we must choose our beliefs carefully. I didnt know about descartes when I was 4, but I had a feel for bullshit and cop-out answers to tough questions.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Shellz, I think it's interesting to note that many people who claim themesleves to be apart of the intellegentsia overlook some basic flaws. They leave out anyone not in their caste system of sectarians. Where does this leave the undesirable? So, they naturally gravitate to their own mind, as if they've had the answers all along. This is a dangerous position to be in because it supposes so much from the claimant in a vain display of arrogance.

Most people learned about God in Sunday school class. Much to my chagrin, the ones' that fall away are often those that never went beyond that. Their Scriptural knowledge and spiritual understanding are abysmal, but still they profess so much about something they know nothing about. Why? Because the knowledge of God is seperate from knowledge itself. You and I know that even a child who comprehends little, mentally, can know God. In fact, it's often this accrued knowledge that clouds their spiritual vision.



Very true. I always figured, and even though it took me a long time to actually come to terms with 'man's wisdom', which I did possess, and I did see true, in my own vanity, that with all I thought I knew, I knew nothing at all.

When I was 11 I began to go to a word of faith church, I grew up baptist. These people really freaked me out, and then I went to a summer camp. I came home, crying out to God DAILY, "Lord, SEND ME! I'm ready to go! Tell me where you want me to go and I'll do it, somehow." I was 12 at this time. I began to ask questions after that, and I never really read the bible. I went to church, and I listened to the preacher. I would be up at 6:30 in the morning ready to wake my mom up for church, to be there at 10:00. If she didn't wake up, I'd cry and beg her to, and then, I'd just call my Aunt to take me. I was hungry, but I didn't know how to keep the fire burning. At 13, I had something happen to me, that totally crushed my faith. The odd thing was, that night, I was reading God's word and not 6 hours later, did it happen. The first thing I did was turn from God. It was almost instinct for me to want to hurt someone like I was hurt. I figured the best way to hurt God was to not acknowledge him, or what he did for me. Instead I turned my interests on philosophy, and Greek mythology. It's like, I set out to prove God wasn't real. Not to the world, more to myself, because I knew. Deep down, I knew.

At this point, My mother and I just didn't get along at all. I couldn't look at her without wanting to cut myself. I was full of anger, and hatred. No one got along with me, and if they did, they were just like me. I was on a down hill spiral to self-destruct. I stayed stoned, all day every day. At 16, I lost my virginity, and begin to drink. My boy friend actually lived with me. None of it made me happy, and at the end of the day, razor blades, pain pills, and alcohol were my only hope. Marijuana wasn't fun, it was something that made me feel normal.

Eventually, I begin to think back to who I use to be, and how much I hated living and who I was, at the time. I remembered a song, that I loved as a believer. 'Missing Person'. I listened to it, while doing dishes, and something came over me, I was so angry. I went into the living room, grabbed my sister's neck and began to strangle her. I wanted her to fear me, I wanted her to know not to mess with me. Her face went from a look of shock, terror, and then she tried to cry. When water began to cover her eyes, I released her, and I screamed. I couldn't believe what I was doing. I ran into my moms room, crying louder than my sister. I hated myself. I felt like I was being pulled apart from the inside out. Then, for the first time in 4 years, I cried out to God, and I said, "Oh God SAVE ME!" I caught myself and said, "You aren't there!" My mom came back there, and said, "What is wrong with you." She talked like she didn't know me. I began to laugh at her, when she said, "I rebuke you in The name of Jesus." (You can't be free of a demon unless you want to be free, and I didn't want to be free, seeing that I did deny God again). At the time I wasn't eating, I knew what I felt, but I put it off on me not eating properly, and mixed emotions. I decided I'd go to church, I thought I'd give God another chance. I sat there to whole time, laughing in the inside, and admiring the beauty of our Guest Speaker, Brian Essary. I came back that night too. I didn't give in to God, I didn't really listen to the sermon, and after it was over, I walked by everyone who knew me when I was younger attending that church.

I had met a man before this, In Aug. of 2004. He was 47, liked to drink, and it was obvious he was attracted to me. I had little self-worth, no self-respect, and I ended up getting into a relationship with this man. Still going to church, I was seeking God. One night, I was talking to this man on the phone, like every other night, and we got on the topic of God. He was baptist, I claimed to be atheist. He wasn't a pillar for a christian, but he wasn't a bad man. He took the time to talk to me about GOd without getting angry. Seed was sown.

I was on my way to my granny's to fix her computer. On the way there, A song came on Christian hit radio, WayFM. It was called, "More". I broke down and cried out to God with a pure heart. I wanted to have what I had before. I wanted God. I gave my heart back to him, still seeing this man, and going to church.

After I gave heart to God, I was in church service, and the anointing came over Pastor Bill. Every word that came out of his mouth was like God speaking directly to me, and again I cried. I was thinking, "Lord, Later, I'll change, Later, I'll give you my life too." Pastor Bill had already said you have to change now, once, and he turned and looked at me, and said, "If you're going to change YOU HAVE TO CHANGE NOW, AND YOU CAN'T GO BACK!" That was it. That set a fire in my heart, and I began to seek God hard. I was on fire, I was hungry, again. I couldn't get enough, but I knew, the 'change' had to deal with me choosing the older man I was seeing, or God. I wanted to choose God, but I had a soul tie with this man. I found myself standing in the middle. So God brought what was hidden in darkness to light, and made the decision for me, because he knew I wouldn't choose.

It's been hard, and because of my own actions I still face court date after court date. Grand Jury is coming up. I'm not afraid anymore, but it's hard. It's not promised to be easy. God loves me, I'm convinced I'm his favorite child, and I'm glad HE gave ME another chance.

After it came out, I had confessed this sin to the church elders, and when my step brother told my mom, she wasn't too happy with me, or her 4th cousin. I hurt her bad. I was emotional, and angry at her. We weren't getting along, and Mrs. Blonda (Church elder) called and said, "Shelly, you're going with me to Hamilton, Alabama." I went, and I was still fighting my own emotions dealing with the older man I thought I loved. The last night there, a blonde headed girl spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and said, "There's a Girl here, who keeps dening God, you're a giant for God." I was saved, I was still trying to choose the older man over him though. I broke, again, and I said, "God, if you wanted me that bad all you had to do was say so, I'm easy." It sounds stupid, but it's how I felt. Even after this all, it took a long time to renounce that soul tie I had with the older man.

God is good. He's brought me out of alot, he's shown me alot in prayer, and supplication, and through his Word. There's no way, I could ever doubt him again.

I wasn't ready when I was 12, I had only just begun my training. I'm still learning and growing. I'm determined to stay focused on what God's called me to do, and to do it by faith. I love God, and God loves everyone, things can be better, but it's a decision you have to make. God will knock, but he can't make you answer.

"Today if you will hear the voice of the Lord, Harden not your heart in provocation (rebellion)."

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-13-2005).]

A slow and painful process, ages 9-12.

I saw a lack of unity, and problems with Catholicism. I did not agree with the Catholic views.

I had an uncle (white) who had recently become Muslim, and decided to take a look at Islam. The whole idea that they were united by a single Koran almost made me become Muslim myself, but since doing the three prayers a day would be caught by my parents eventually, I (sadly) decided that I couldn't be Muslim.

I had a grandmother who was very into New Age, and started looking at Biorythms and chakra healing, but then I found out that she believed in astrology which I already had known to be bullshit, so I decided she wasn't a very credible source. In addition, I read the text file in the FAQ (A Field Guide to Critical Thinking), which made it sound obvious that chakra healing was idiocy, making me more sure that I was believing in fairy tales.

Throughout this time I was looking a Buddhism, Jainism, and Hinduism. I was trying to make Buddhism work with Christianity. At the same time, I was trying to get Hinduism to work for me.

Then, late one night, I looked at a website on Buddhism, and it started explaining why some Buddhists didn't believe in God. http://tinyurl.com/7apql (It makes me feel warm and fuzzy to know it's still up http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)) I agreed with it, and gave up my belief in God.

I'll tell more if you want to know what happened afterward, I think I've written enough.

EDIT: this happened when I was in fifth grade, so I was 11.



[This message has been edited by Inti (edited 11-13-2005).]

I never felt the pull to begin with. It was just going through the motions to fit in with the other people in my life, a great percentage who are Believers. I can honestly claim that I've always had an absence of faith. It certainly cannot be due to underexposure to religion, because the first two decades of my life revolved around it.

I'll have to say the "when" took place right about the time I began feeling more comfortable and more confident about my decision to live without it. Nothing horrible happened. No trauma was experienced. I wasn't influenced by friends or outside influences. I just felt it was time to take full responsibility for myself, and not turn my life and decisions over to an invisible presence that I've never actually experienced firsthand.

It took me until I was 23 years old for the walls to come crumbling down. I was staunchly opposed to God before this time. It's only in retrospect that I realized being angry at something i alledge doesn't exist to begin with is hopelessly illogical. But the knowledge of God supercedes mere logic. Unbeknownst to us, however, seeds are being sown that will ripen during the harvest. Perhaps your harvest has not yet come. Are you good soil? Will the cares of this world choke you? Will the Enemy come in to steal your seed? Or will you fall on good soil to produce a crop of 10, 30, 100 times what was sown?

Will the metaphors ever cease?

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Will the metaphors ever cease?

I prefer, parable.....

W T F



hmmmm "faith" hmmmmmmmmmmmmm "faith"

faith in what? why do you need "faith"?

surely if you believe in god, you don't need "faith" in god, because to you he is as real as a cow or a stone or the air.

i always had the strongest faith in the existance of rocks, air, water, rubber bands, pencils, lighters, cups, desks, speakers, wires, cd's, dvd's, monitors, cpu's, folders, mouse, bank statements, and lock on: air combat simulatioon.

and you know what? i never had "faith" in "god"! you know why? because, in the history of my existance and all the people i have spoken to, not one who "believes" has convincingly explained to me EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS!

i have, however found an explanation for how "it" works, and that explanation can be found in the fields of PSYCOLOGY and SOCIOLOGY.

i will start to believe in god, as soon as you can DISPROVE THE EXISTANCE OF GOD.

because to disprove god, you need to be able to at least measure the effect of god in some way, like ANY REAL THING IN EXISTANCE!

for me, probably when i was 11 or 12. around then my cousin died and my parents were pissed off at my sister for trying to become a wiccan. so, i waited a while to see god's 'greatness'. never happened. so, i said fuck it. if there is a god, he should show himself, and he shouldnt have his faith systems shoved down your throat.

Terminator, are you an atheist or an agnostic?

Eh, I cant say that I've ever had faith in a god. I prolly will someday but for now I am just floating around faithless.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Terminator, are you an atheist or an agnostic?

a nothing.

i suppose i am closer to an agnostic, because i only believe things exist when i have some kind of evidence for it.

i would say i am a scientist.

When ALL prayers went unanswered. Not just mine, but anyone else I knew who prayed.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

^Lay off the thesaurus. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) (directed at literary)

Ha. I haven't even started yet. Wait until my posts degenerate into little more than sesquipedelian word salad.

I never had much to lose, to be honest.

I was raise vaguely christian, going to a Unitarian-Universalist Church. And so I was kinda whatever, sure, I'll believe in God because that's what they want to hear, and never bothered to think about it much more than that. There was nothing that made me stop believing, there was just nothing that ever really made me believe. I mean, I haven't believed in God in years, and he hasn't smited me yet or anything. I guess you could say I was just too lazy to bother.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

Ha. I haven't even started yet. Wait until my posts degenerate into little more than sesquipedelian word salad.

precocious syntax is ubiquitous in your expostulations

I don't mean to hijack this thread but, what I find interesting is there are some people who proclaim no faith or, they do not believe in God at all are common posters to this section of Totse.

If you don't believe in God then ok. But, why continue to be advocating against it?

Do you come here to just destroy faith or is there something inside your spirit man that you are not sure of? Was the church that horrendous of a place to go to as a child, Or do you miss something about it?

I'm curious that those who lost faith early in life still continue to be attached to it somewhat now after all that time? Why not just walk away from it and not look back?



[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 11-13-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

I don't mean to hijack this thread but, what I find interesting is there are some people who proclaim no faith or, they do not believe in God at all are common posters to this section of Totse.

If you don't believe in God then ok. But, why continue to be advocating against it?

Do you come here to just destroy faith or is there something inside your spirit man that you are not sure of? Was the church that horrendous of a place to go to as a child, Or do you miss something about it?

I'm curious that those who lost faith early in life still continue to be attached to it somewhat now after all that time? Why not just walk away from it and not look back?

For me, it's partly just finding out about different perspectives. But I also think an important part of faith is questioning one's faith, whether that is faith in God, or in lack of a God. I also think that people (both me and other folks) could always use another perspective. If I can open my mind a bit, and maybe even open somebody else's mind a bit, it's totally worth it. And I, at least, don't think everybody should believe the things I do, I just think I should get my thoughts out there.

So you want a debate forum to have all of its posters from one side of the debate to leave?!

WTF

quote:I'm curious that those who lost faith early in life still continue to be attached to it somewhat now after all that time? Why not just walk away from it and not look back?

It's not that we're attatched to it.

I'm just trying to help people out. I remember being Christian, and I remember how I always felt shitty because I knew I was going to live forever. Eternal life felt like more of a curse than a reward to me.

I'm also mad that many of my "friends" try to convert me. Every week I get asked to go to their church for a youth group meeting, even though I've repeatedly lied to them and said that I'm Catholic, and they just won't give up. I have never had any of my Hindu or Muslim friends try to convert me, but when I ask about their faith, they are willing to tell me about it.

I have never had anyone other than Christians come to my door to convert me. When I open my door, they start telling me how if I don't go to their mega-church I'm going to rot in Hell. Scare tactics are weak tactics.

I go to a public school and they have posters showing quotes from the Bible on them. I normally wouldn't have problems with them, but these posters state the 10 Commandments.

Old men stand by the only exits from my school and hand out copies of the New Testament.

I get funny looks when I refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegiance because it has the phrase "under God" in it.

Other students try to make me look like an idiot and make other students take my ideas as jokes by yelling out that I am an atheist.

You wanna know my beef? That's my beef.

It takes nerve to walk into a debate forum and imply that one side should stop debating because they chose a side of the debate.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

I don't mean to hijack this thread but, what I find interesting is there are some people who proclaim no faith or, they do not believe in God at all are common posters to this section of Totse.

If you don't believe in God then ok. But, why continue to be advocating against it?

Do you come here to just destroy faith or is there something inside your spirit man that you are not sure of? Was the church that horrendous of a place to go to as a child, Or do you miss something about it?

I'm curious that those who lost faith early in life still continue to be attached to it somewhat now after all that time? Why not just walk away from it and not look back?





This obviously is not a comment meant at me, because I rarely post here. However, I enjoy a good debate, especially when I clearly have the logical advantage. This forum is for religious discussion, it is totally relevant for athiests. And why do you have a problem with athiest, do you fear being challenged?

Religion plays a HUGE role in our society and culture (AND POLITICS!), whether or not one believes in religion it still affects our lives. It is in my own personal interest to have my voice heard. This forum should welcome all discussion so that all views can be heard, to shut out one group would be defeats its purpose.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

If you don't believe in God then ok. But, why continue to be advocating against it?

Do you come here to just destroy faith or is there something inside your spirit man that you are not sure of? Was the church that horrendous of a place to go to as a child, Or do you miss something about it?

I cannot speak for the rest of the irreligious masses, but personally I have no desire to destroy faith. I think it's a beautiful thing in a lot of respects - however, I will not stand for logically fallacious stances in defense of it. Like Kierkegaard and Tertullian, if you are to believe that God exists, then you should do it with the knowledge that your belief is also irrational and absurd.

quote:I'm curious that those who lost faith early in life still continue to be attached to it somewhat now after all that time? Why not just walk away from it and not look back?

Because religion is often very, very pretty (Song of Solomon fucking slays me). It's also a neat sociological insight into humanity as a whole - imagination writ large.

[This message has been edited by literary syphilis (edited 11-13-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

WHEN did you begin to lose your faith. [What events lead up to it.] I don't want to know 'why' because I know I will receive answer like, "After I started to use my brain." I'm just not looking for why. WHEN? What happened? Surely you didn't just wake up one morning, sun was shining, and said, "You know what? God isn't there." Something somewhere happened, and you got offended. Tell me what REALLY lead up to you doubting God, pulling back, and losing faith?



When I kept being confronted by the contradictions it shook me and for a while I denied the possibility of "God", however what I lost was not belief in spirituality, but 'faith' in the image of god/divinity taught by the church. What I know now is that life is constant change, and I wonder is it possible to hold a fixed position on any thing so subjective as human ideas of god?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

WHEN did you begin to lose your faith. [What events lead up to it.] I don't want to know 'why' because I know I will receive answer like, "After I started to use my brain." I'm just not looking for why. WHEN? What happened? Surely you didn't just wake up one morning, sun was shining, and said, "You know what? God isn't there." Something somewhere happened, and you got offended. Tell me what REALLY lead up to you doubting God, pulling back, and losing faith?



You assume a lot.

You assume that we are born with a state of faithfulness. You assume that we got offended. And you also assume that "what happened" means "when" and not "why".

Just to satisfy your curiosity and hopefully shock you out of your assumptions, I never had faith as you mean it. Religious stories were just that and church was always a meaningless, boring affair. When I grew older, of course, I started wondering about supernatural things but the more educated I got the more I dismissed them. I never had any conflicts or hurtful experiences with religious content. My parents believe in a casual, traditional way but their lives were never dictated by religion. Making a living and raising kids took most of their time. Despite this lack of religiousness, I turned out fine and judging from the life stories of those religious I read here, I think I am thankful for it.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

You assume a lot.

You assume that we are born with a state of faithfulness. You assume that we got offended. And you also assume that "what happened" means "when" and not "why".

Just to satisfy your curiosity and hopefully shock you out of your assumptions, I never had faith as you mean it. Religious stories were just that and church was always a meaningless, boring affair. When I grew older, of course, I started wondering about supernatural things but the more educated I got the more I dismissed them. I never had any conflicts or hurtful experiences with religious content. My parents believe in a casual, traditional way but their lives were never dictated by religion. Making a living and raising kids took most of their time. Despite this lack of religiousness, I turned out fine and judging from the life stories of those religious I read here, I think I am thankful for it.

I'm talking about those who believed in God, and lost their faith. Those who believed, and lost it, didn't lose it because they wanted to. Let's be logical, only for a moment. In order to lose faith, you have to have it first. Just as I can't miss something I've never had; I can't lose something I've never had either.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-13-2005).]

"Lose your faith". People aren't born with faith, y'know. Though perhaps you're indoctrinated enough to believe you were.

I was left to my own devices as regards religion, my parents said they'd accept me no matter what I believed, and I simply didn't develop the need for one. Not that I've had an easy life, far from it, but I've got where I am personally, socially and career-wise on my own strength and optimism and maybe through a series of fortunate cock-ups in the British education system http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif).

quote:Shellz, I think it's interesting to note that many people who claim themesleves to be apart of the intellegentsia overlook some basic flaws. They leave out anyone not in their caste system of sectarians. Where does this leave the undesirable? So, they naturally gravitate to their own mind, as if they've had the answers all along. This is a dangerous position to be in because it supposes so much from the claimant in a vain display of arrogance.

Most people learned about God in Sunday school class. Much to my chagrin, the ones' that fall away are often those that never went beyond that. Their Scriptural knowledge and spiritual understanding are abysmal, but still they profess so much about something they know nothing about. Why? Because the knowledge of God is seperate from knowledge itself. You and I know that even a child who comprehends little, mentally, can know God. In fact, it's often this accrued knowledge that clouds their spiritual vision.

It makes me sick when people like you make assumptions like this. "apart [sic] of the intelligentsia"? What the fuck? There is no such thing as an 'intelligentsia', there is no inpenetrable elite in our highly dynamic society, you are what you make yourself. You clearly feel left out because you're an idiot. No, I'm not attaching any caste-system dogma to you, you genuinely seem like an idiot. Prove me wrong.

I admit that I've never read the whole of the Bible. I've tried, but it's such badly-penned ambiguous gibberish that I never really saw the point.

And by "spiritual understanding" I assume you mean foolishly believing your emotions to be God tickling your soul or something?

*ahem*. Wow, I reacted pretty strongly to that. Sorry http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif). All I'm saying is, don't feel left out of some giant intellectual society that is somehow above you, as far as I've ever been able to tell, when you think something like that exists, it's usually an illusion. It's an image. Like the idea that in late-70s Britain there were a great deal of punks, in reality there were probably only a few genuine nihilist antisocial lunatics and a whole bunch of posers who wanted to be in on this society they percieved as existing. My point is there's no such thing as an 'intelligentsia', and anybody who loves thought and knowledge is intellectually 'elite'. It's true that most people like this go to University and eventually earn a lot of money for it because it's useful, but I know a lot of people who aren't and I don't respect them any less for it.

quote:So, they naturally gravitate to their own mind, as if they've had the answers all along. This is a dangerous position to be in because it supposes so much from the claimant in a vain display of arrogance.

quote:Very true. I always figured, and even though it took me a long time to actually come to terms with 'man's wisdom', which I did possess, and I did see true, in my own vanity, that with all I thought I knew, I knew nothing at all.

Funny how Christians claim themselves to be less vain than atheists, yet they also claim the Universe was created for them. Most atheists believe that they are merely complex physical systems, probably not unique in the universe for being capable of conscious thought, and you claim that we're the vain ones?

quote:I prefer, parable.....

How very unpretentious http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif). Are you making it easy for us because we're not part of the 'intelligentsia'?

quote:faith in what? why do you need "faith"?

surely if you believe in god, you don't need "faith" in god, because to you he is as real as a cow or a stone or the air.

i always had the strongest faith in the existance of rocks, air, water, rubber bands, pencils, lighters, cups, desks, speakers, wires, cd's, dvd's, monitors, cpu's, folders, mouse, bank statements, and lock on: air combat simulatioon.

and you know what? i never had "faith" in "god"! you know why? because, in the history of my existance and all the people i have spoken to, not one who "believes" has convincingly explained to me EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS!

i have, however found an explanation for how "it" works, and that explanation can be found in the fields of PSYCOLOGY and SOCIOLOGY.

i will start to believe in god, as soon as you can DISPROVE THE EXISTANCE OF GOD.

because to disprove god, you need to be able to at least measure the effect of god in some way, like ANY REAL THING IN EXISTANCE!

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

sp0rkius approves of this message.

quote:If you don't believe in God then ok. But, why continue to be advocating against it?

It's party open-mindedness (though I don't seem that way a lot of the time, I know, but the best way to advocate a certain view is to play at being completely unshirking in your defence of it) and trying to reach the real truth - it's odd how so many people follow some kind of spiritual path, so it's not unreasonable to check it out and see why they do so. Also I'm a bit militant about it nowadays because all this fundementalist anti-the-very-foundations-of-rational-enquiry type stuff makes me angry.

quote:Let's be logical, only for a moment.

Actually, weren't you one of those who was arguing against logic? In that case, any argument you make using it is automatically void. I think we should make it a rule on this board that whenever Shellz uses logic, we just ignore her.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I'm talking about those who believed in God, and lost their faith. Those who believed, and lost it, didn't lose it because they wanted to. Let's be logical, only for a moment. In order to lose faith, you have to have it first. Just as I can't miss something I've never had; I can't lose something I've never had either.



Oh is THAT what your asking? The simple answer is they just aren't brainwashed good enough.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

I'm curious that those who lost faith early in life still continue to be attached to it somewhat now after all that time? Why not just walk away from it and not look back?

its because really, we arent able to. we may not have faith, but religion is all around us. its extremely difficult not to get involved in some way, even if it is speaking out against it.

I was raised in a rather extreme religious group (read cult). I was taught the Bible, I can still quote you chunks of it, and all sorts of religiousity. From the time I was ten, I swung back and forth from believing that what was said about God was real, and that it was not. I alternated between feelings of rage at God, and then feelings of guilt that God would judge me. That went on until I was about 13 or so, I was listening to this guy drone on about his deep connection with God, and I thought to myself, "This guy is a moron".

Anyway, a little bit after that I was confused about what the fuck I believed, and I told God that if he was there, then kindly show yourself. I even went so far as to do the equivalent of what Gideon in the Bible did (you Christians should know this), and told God that if he was there, and if he wanted me to follow him then he had to give me some kind of sign. I forget exactly what the sign was, but it didn't work. I even gave God about 4 or 5 more chances after that, cuz I wanted to believe in him, but there was nothing there to make me believe in him. So I figured why the hell should I serve and obey a God who couldn't even help out one of his "kids".

I went out a couple nights later, got drunk. Got stoned. Got laid. Stole stuff. Broke every rule in the book. And I've had a hell of a good time since. I didn't run back to God, if he does exist, I don't need him. If he doesn't well then, what the fuck.

I come here cuz I find it mildly stimulating to read the arguments, and occasionally participate in them. If we all only wanted to discuss the various ways that God shows himself to us, we could go to church. Why do you come here anyway? Is it to convert us? I daresay you've done a damn lousy job.

I've never lost faith in my belief, I've just never had faith in yours.

Ever.

I was a very pious child, but when I got married that kind of changed. My husband wasn't religious and I stopped praying before I went to bed. Soon I never prayed at all. And then a lot of terrible things happened to me and I just began having a sort of open dialouge with "god". I never stopped believing completely but my beliefs have definitely changed and are much more lenient these days. I don't pray very often and I don't go to temple. God and I just communicate on a sort of casual level.

Cheers,

Lost

OK guys, I know it might be a little bit out of the status quo for there to be a non-debate topic in this forum, but it's perfectly valid--don't turn it into a debate thread because it is by its nature undebatable.

I never really had any faith, to begin with; I was baptized episcopal and attended a Catholic school for Kindergarten and first grade, which is the only time I've ever been inside a church for the purposes of worship (have done service in them since).

After I left St. Ann's, the question of God was never an issue for me; I suppose I probably had some vague notion of God, but my upbringing was a textbook case of agnosticism; my father is a weak Christian and my mother, a weak Jew, and no religious discussion ever really took place.

My Middle School years were marked by the naive atheism that afflicts so many people that age; I proclaimed that God did not exist, tendering no proof, no reasoning, merely a blind faith in the absence of divinity.

In the past few years, I came to realize, through the natural process of maturing, that atheism is as much faith as religion, and that faith is something that I cannot bank on. My decision to become an agnostic (or rather, forsake faith), then, was a purely pragmatic one -- I didn't want to bank on there being a God or a Heaven, and I didn't want to bank on their not being one, so I took agnosticism as a neutral cop-out.

I think I was attracted to neutrality (which I think is a better word than 'agnosticism') because I didn't have to commit to one side or another; I realized that the only way I could be right (and avoid being wrong) was to not take a side; of course, that negated my ability to be right, but on the other hand I can't be wrong.

In short, my change was prompted by a fear of being incorrect, by a desire to maintain neutrality and objectivity, and, if you want to take into account my personality, an effort to be the most erudite person I could be--by not taking sides, I would be able to see all sides, and be inherently superior to an individual who took a side (the logical warrant for this? Taking a side irrevocably implies bias).

So yes, I'm a proud card-carrying member of the intelligentsia, and this is why I am an agnostic/neutral.

quote:Originally posted by Inti:

So you want a debate forum to have all of its posters from one side of the debate to leave?!

WTF

That's not exactly what I was asking. If I don't think basket weaving is not for me I for certain don't go find basket weavers and tell them how wrong they are. Sounds a bit hostile in a way. I would just go my way and pay no attention to it. What a person does behind closed doors is their business right?

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

That's not exactly what I was asking. If I don't think basket weaving is not for me I for certain don't go find basket weavers and tell them how wrong they are. Sounds a bit hostile in a way. I would just go my way and pay no attention to it. What a person does behind closed doors is their business right?





You don't think atheism is for you, so you for certain do not go and find atheists and tell them how wrong they are. Sounds a but hostile in a way. You would just go your way and pay no attention to them. What a person does behind closed doors is their business, right?

If I understand correctly, you do not want to tell atheists how they are wrong through debate, and don't want atheists to tell you that you're wrong through debate?

So now you don't want a debate forum to have debates?

As long as what I am doing in no way limits the freedoms of another human, I see no reason for it being disallowed.

When I didn't fuck up my life.

I never bought it.

I used to get my ASS whipped for questioning my parents making me go to church even when I was very little.

I would put up a fuss every sinday, I mean sunday.

The only reason I ever went was b/c the girls there would believe anything you told them and so sex was easy to get(if life gives lemons, make lemonade) and I could make quite a bit of money playing an instrument.

Even in church i was all about the money and the bitches. Couple that with the numerous sexual encounters during the sermon and you got a reason to be there.

My first lesson of sunday school when i was told god walked on water.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

That's not exactly what I was asking. If I don't think basket weaving is not for me I for certain don't go find basket weavers and tell them how wrong they are. Sounds a bit hostile in a way. I would just go my way and pay no attention to it. What a person does behind closed doors is their business right?

Then how do you rationalise your own evangelism?

Edit: Is hypocrisy only acceptable when it is your own?

[This message has been edited by literary syphilis (edited 11-14-2005).]

I was 13, and it came directly from actually reading the Bible. None of my teachers even know what the hell they were talking about, the people supposed to show me the way to God. I used to get a kick out of asking questions they couldn't answer, but thats a natual reult of being inquisitive and arrogant. I had a brief revival of faith after I found one of my teachers who know what the hell she was talking about, but eventaully even her nswers were insuffecient.

I turned to atheism out of a "fuck organized religion" mentality. In the course of reading of this new faith, I came ro realize how absurd it was to consider it a faith. Eventually, by around 15, I came to the conclusion that there is no reason to believe there is a God, but no logical disproof (you can't prove a negative). I don't believe, and I don't think there is a God.

Furthermore, I still loathe the very essense of the main monotheistics. Their entire approach to god strikes me as childish and weak. Even if I were to meet the Christian God, I would still never worship. I'd rather be a wolf in hell than a sheep in heaven.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

OK guys, I know it might be a little bit out of the status quo for there to be a non-debate topic in this forum, but it's perfectly valid--don't turn it into a debate thread because it is by its nature undebatable.

I never really had any faith, to begin with; I was baptized episcopal and attended a Catholic school for Kindergarten and first grade, which is the only time I've ever been inside a church for the purposes of worship (have done service in them since).

After I left St. Ann's, the question of God was never an issue for me; I suppose I probably had some vague notion of God, but my upbringing was a textbook case of agnosticism; my father is a weak Christian and my mother, a weak Jew, and no religious discussion ever really took place.

My Middle School years were marked by the naive atheism that afflicts so many people that age; I proclaimed that God did not exist, tendering no proof, no reasoning, merely a blind faith in the absence of divinity.

In the past few years, I came to realize, through the natural process of maturing, that atheism is as much faith as religion, and that faith is something that I cannot bank on. My decision to become an agnostic (or rather, forsake faith), then, was a purely pragmatic one -- I didn't want to bank on there being a God or a Heaven, and I didn't want to bank on their not being one, so I took agnosticism as a neutral cop-out.

I think I was attracted to neutrality (which I think is a better word than 'agnosticism') because I didn't have to commit to one side or another; I realized that the only way I could be right (and avoid being wrong) was to not take a side; of course, that negated my ability to be right, but on the other hand I can't be wrong.

In short, my change was prompted by a fear of being incorrect, by a desire to maintain neutrality and objectivity, and, if you want to take into account my personality, an effort to be the most erudite person I could be--by not taking sides, I would be able to see all sides, and be inherently superior to an individual who took a side (the logical warrant for this? Taking a side irrevocably implies bias).

So yes, I'm a proud card-carrying member of the intelligentsia, and this is why I am an agnostic/neutral.

Very good. Don't stop searching for truth though. Keep wanting to know more, and keep looking for more. You'll find it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

I don't mean to hijack this thread but, what I find interesting is there are some people who proclaim no faith or, they do not believe in God at all are common posters to this section of Totse.

If you don't believe in God then ok. But, why continue to be advocating against it?

Do you come here to just destroy faith or is there something inside your spirit man that you are not sure of? Was the church that horrendous of a place to go to as a child, Or do you miss something about it?

I'm curious that those who lost faith early in life still continue to be attached to it somewhat now after all that time? Why not just walk away from it and not look back?





Probably because they're seeking what they had? We were created to seek God. God is Love, God is everything we desire, and the problem is, we look for it in all the wrong places. When I went away from God, I began to look for that peace and love and acceptance I had in God from the world, I couldn't find it, and it took alot before I realized I can't find it in the world, because all the devil offers is cheap imitation, and I wanted the authenic thing.

There isn't a soul in this world who isn't seeking God. Not one. You can tell it by looking into their lifestyle and seeing how they live their life. How they live, is what they're looking for.

I wanted love, I figured sex as someone wanting me. I looked for peace, I found that in being stoned out of my mind, but when it all came down to reality, I wasn't happy, I wan't even content, I tried to supress the pure desire, and in the process corrupted it, and tried to pacify it. I began to hate what I had become and tried to kill myself many times. I didn't want to hurt, so I inflicted pain I could control. I wanted to be in control over things, Now I can control myself by the spirit.

Everyone seeks God.

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

Then how do you rationalise your own evangelism?

Edit: Is hypocrisy only acceptable when it is your own?



Evangelism is about spreading God's word and giving everbody the opportunity to hear about what Jesus did for us and to accept them as savior and Lord of their life.



It isn't to go around and tell people how wrong they are.

Those who do this are missing the point. WE are ALL wrong in our ways when we live opposed to the spiritual laws of God.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:



It isn't to go around and tell people how wrong they are.

WE are ALL wrong





How can you not miss the hypocrisy?

quote:Originally posted by Inti:



You don't think atheism is for you, so you for certain do not go and find atheists and tell them how wrong they are. Sounds a but hostile in a way. You would just go your way and pay no attention to them. What a person does behind closed doors is their business, right?

Nice twist on my words. But, I see your point. However, the atheists need to get together and figure out if they follow a religion that is a non-religion or not before they consider having a horse in this race.

quote:

If I understand correctly, you do not want to tell atheists how they are wrong through debate, and don't want atheists to tell you that you're wrong through debate?

That's not what I was saying. I was saying why go out of your way and put up a fight on something that really doesn't really matter to an atheist? After all there is no spirit in man and we are nothing more then intelligent ape men destined for the grave.

quote:

So now you don't want a debate forum to have debates?

Because dabating about God is pointless. Either you know Him or you don't. He reveals Himself to us in our way. I can't pursuade you to see Him nor can you pursuade me not to see Him. It's pointless.



quote:

As long as what I am doing in no way limits the freedoms of another human, I see no reason for it being disallowed.

Then why do the atheists push so hard to put an end to religion in the public places. Government, schools, libraries, etc? Just by the very nature of debate you take the side of "tolerance" for all and "diversity" in our cities but you leave no place for God or those who love Him.

I don't believe a single word you say because the actions do not fit the words.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:



How can you not miss the hypocrisy?



There isn't hypocrisy there. He can't judge someone, but he can preach the truth and according to the Word of God ALL have sinned.

He said he wasn't out to say people were wrong and then he said that everybody was wrong who didn't follow the word of god. This is known as hypocrisy

Changing Subject

Sig free your post from straw men and the likelyhood of a response is greater

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:



How can you not miss the hypocrisy?



I see the hypocrisy all the time in man and on all sides. I don't believe that is trait reserved for Christians alone. We all fail at living the life we invision for ourselves. It's human nature to fail.

I see the atheists are teaching an anti-christian inside a doctrine about tolerance, diversity, equality and so on. However, none of those places are reserved for a Christian or Christian views. Think about it. I see hypocrisy on all sides. I see bigotry on all sides.

If you want to debate then answer these;

If tolerance is taught to accept our differences then how come there is no tolerence for those accept Jesus as the savior?

If diversity is for a "global village" then why is God being left out?

IF equality is for all color, religion and creeds then how come anybody that opposes the atheist world view is condemned?

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

I see the atheists are teaching an anti-christian inside a doctrine about tolerance, diversity, equality and so on.

I see you making all sorts of unwarranted and unsupported umbrella statements.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

He said he wasn't out to say people were wrong and then he said that everybody was wrong who didn't follow the word of god. This is known as hypocrisy

Changing Subject

Sig free your post from straw men and the likelyhood of a response is greater

thats fair response. What I should have said is everyone has done wrong despite a desire to do right. Unless of course you are perfect and then I would stand corrected again.

quote:. We all fail at living the life we invision for ourselves. It's human nature to fail.

[/B]

Massive straw-man I'm perfectly happy in my life, the reason you became an evangelist may be because you fucked up your life with drugs. However generally humanity is succeeding It's human nature to win you xenophile.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

Massive straw-man I'm perfectly happy in my life, the reason you became an evangelist may be because you fucked up your life with drugs. However generally humanity is succeeding It's human nature to win you xenophile.

sorry didn't see your post.

However what the hell does people's occasional failure have to do with anything?

As for your question, I'm tolerant of christians generally, It's just that these Evangelical Born-again christians that piss me off, They would rather take a kilo of pot and lay wasted on a sidewalk then accept personal responsibillity and advocate tolerance.

It's annoying.



[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 11-15-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

I see you making all sorts of unwarranted and unsupported umbrella statements.

I can elaborate if you wish.

Just give it to me straight what is your arguement?

You know what man? Jesus said he didn't come to condemn people, but to tell them the truth, which basically means people will get offended at the truth.

There are people who are saved, that doesn't make them right in what they do. No one will be perfect until they meet Jesus in the air.

Sig, They're not going to understand because seeing they see not, hearing they hear not,

I love all of you, and I blame alot on the Church. You know, Jesus said IF HIS PEOPLE HUMBLE THEMSELVES AND PRAY TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAY HE'LL HEAR THEM AND HEAL THEIR LAND. Not if the world.

It's the CHURCH THAT HAS TO REPENT, and Turn. Not the unsaved, THE CHURCH.

Christians, out here doing what the world's doing, REPENT. We're not suppose to be like yall, and try to conform to darkness, we're suppose to let out light so shine before man. So that you can see what we have and be like, "I want that!!!!"

Not look at us, and say, "I sure don't want that." CHURCH REPENT!!!!!!!

That argument is simply a cop-out shelly

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

He said he wasn't out to say people were wrong and then he said that everybody was wrong who didn't follow the word of god. This is known as hypocrisy

Changing Subject

Sig free your post from straw men and the likelyhood of a response is greater

I see where you can see the hyporisy in this. Seems I dug a hole for myself -



Evangelsim isn't about telling people they are wrong - it is about spreading the word of God. At the same time inside the message of evangelism comes;

We are all imperfect and have done wrong before the eyes of God.

However, hypocrisy as defined

1.The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

2.An act or instance of such falseness.

For me to be guilty of what you accuse then I would have to say I live like there is no God at the same time promoting Him. However, while I am not a perfect Christian I do have a strong desire to live according to God's will. ALthough I fall short often I thank God for His grace and patience with me.

What you are seeing is not hypocrisy but an incomplete testimony. There is much more that needs to be said to make sense of the original idea.

actually I'm accusing you of hypocrisy because you said you weren't out to tell people they were wrong.

Anyways this thead is kind of dead, I won.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

That argument is simply a cop-out shelly

No, it's what's on my heart, and it's THE TRUTH, because God said it.

If it was cop-out, I wouldn't have began what I said with a response that went along with what was said.

Where did god say it?

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

Massive straw-man I'm perfectly happy in my life, the reason you became an evangelist may be because you fucked up your life with drugs. However generally humanity is succeeding It's human nature to win you xenophile.

Na, it wasn't drugs, it was life in general. Drugs was the escape But, thankyou for your "compassion". I can almost feel the love...



I'm not here to say if your life is great or not. If it is then wonderful. Sometimes when things are going well and we are floating on top of the water we feel secure in our abilities to control our fate. It's when things get out of control is when someone is open for divine assistance. I'm here to say when the happens there is a way out. That's all.

It's called rehab.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

actually I'm accusing you of hypocrisy because you said you weren't out to tell people they were wrong.

Anyways this thead is kind of dead, I won.

what will you do with your win?

Use it to boost my confidence http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

It's called rehab.

You're right again...it is by the hands and will of the great physician our Lord Jesus Christ I was rehabilitated. It was Him who saved me and set me straight.

Thanks for the reminder!

So what now?

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

That's not exactly what I was asking. If I don't think basket weaving is not for me I for certain don't go find basket weavers and tell them how wrong they are. Sounds a bit hostile in a way. I would just go my way and pay no attention to it. What a person does behind closed doors is their business right?



yeah, but if you think religion is a curse on humanity, and god is a delusion, you want to help these people, if there aren't bible bashers being converted to atheism, then slowly all the atheists will be converted into bible bashers, then we will live in a shit world ruled by the churches, A NEW DARK AGE

thats why every atheist and agnostic and scientist, should make it his duty to reveal the fallacy and the idiocy in religion, to save the world from bad people who want to convert us all into god fearing christians,

no progress, no exploration, no freedom, no fun, no logic, no education. only the dogma of religion.

I respect a person's right to spirituality. However when I find an evangelist I will have no qualms about pointing out the gaping logical flaws in their belief.

[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 11-15-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

I respect a person's right to spirituality. However when I find an evangelist I will have no qualms about pointing out the gaping logical flaws in their belief.





The largest stumbling block put in front of us is to use human logic to understand the heart and mind of God.

Looking at God through the logic of man is like having a reel of film, taking out one frame and deciding the outcome and begining of the film by that one frame.

So your saying that the notion of a deity is illogical?

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:



The largest stumbling block put in front of us is to use human logic to understand the heart and mind of God.

Looking at God through the logic of man is like having a reel of film, taking out one frame and deciding the outcome and begining of the film by that one frame.



so what your saying is "don't test god"?

crawl back under your rock and die.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

That argument is simply a cop-out shelly

A cop out, for sure. It is becoming exceedingly difficult to take her seriously. I miss Digital Savior. I had respect for her arguments. She struck me as the kind of individual who at least practiced what she preached.

Nevermind, I think this belongs in the hypocrisy thread (?!)

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

So your saying that the notion of a deity is illogical?

Logic is a funny thing. It requires absolutes throughout and at both ends of the equation to come to a constant answer to a problem.

ie, A+B=D if A=1, B=?, and D=3

The logical answer is B=2

You can look at the spiritual with this same linear logic however, the formulas and guildlines are just as simple to arrive at the conclusion.

TO arrive at love, contentment, happiness, joy, peace, etc one must first give up those things that are against them. The kicker is God, as a living entity, can not be with us if we live opposed to those above mentioned things.

Here is the logic. If you follow unholy desires of the flesh, are hateful, disobediant, boastful, pridefully seeking self pleasure, a liar, a thief, etc then what you have is a life void of God and filled with the many things of this world that will only serve to pacify an unquenchale inner desire. It creates a unfertile ground for the truth to work as one bad deed leads to one lie and then another to the point where the entire contenance of man is set on fire resulting in depravity.

I want to offer hope in this as God only requires obediance to those things that lead to Love, happiness, joy, contentment and peace.

Give to others of yourself and hold nothing back. Love others when you are hated and never turn your back on someone who is in need. Take care of the widows and orphans and visit those in prison. Give to them what you would want given to you. Which is unyielding, unconditional love. This is the true religion of Christ.

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

so what your saying is "don't test god"?

crawl back under your rock and die.

How in the world did you come to this conclusion? Where in anything that I said could you come up with that answer?

but while we are on the topic..no we aren't supposed to test God. What we should be doing is "counting the costs" of following God. There is a huge difference. This my friend is what you have done in your llfe and found that either the costs are too high, ie you are unwillingly to give up certain things in your life, or you don't fully comprehend what it is we are talking about and the only way to get answers is to come to a place like this.



"No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead he puts it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light. Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are good, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are bad, your body also is full of darkness. See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be completely lighted, as when the light of a lamp shines on you." Luke 11:33-36

It is not within me to go crawl back under neath a rock and die.

Because of this I can not do what you request. Therefore, come out from under your rock and live. The world is waiting for the love you can pour into it!

[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 11-15-2005).]

quote:I wanted love, I figured sex as someone wanting me. I looked for peace, I found that in being stoned out of my mind, but when it all came down to reality, I wasn't happy, I wan't even content, I tried to supress the pure desire, and in the process corrupted it, and tried to pacify it. I began to hate what I had become and tried to kill myself many times. I didn't want to hurt, so I inflicted pain I could control. I wanted to be in control over things, Now I can control myself by the spirit.

Everyone seeks God.

Haha! You couldn't control yourself so that proves the existance of God. Very good.

You don't control yourself, the only thing that defines you as a person are your illogical beliefs.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

You know what man? Jesus said he didn't come to condemn people, but to tell them the truth, which basically means people will get offended at the truth.

There are people who are saved, that doesn't make them right in what they do. No one will be perfect until they meet Jesus in the air.



That means, when you speak GOD'S WORD TO PEOPLE, they will feel like they are being judged because God's word is the ONLY way to live your life. It's the law. God's LAW. The law draws a clear line between what is black and what is white, there is no gray area. There is sin, and there is repentance. All have sinned. You go into a bar, and preach God's WORD, what is RIGHT, what is TRUTH, what is the LIGHT, and what is the ONLY WAY, someone's going to get offended.

When you say WHAT IS RIGHT, and someone isn't doing right, they're either going to get OFFENDED or convicted. Most get OFFENDED, because if you're CONVICTED, conviction requires CHANGE, and change seems to be a BIG SCARY WORD to people who live in the flesh but want their salvation, or people who live a blind life, after their flesh.

Jesus said, "HAD I NOT SPOKE THE WORDS I SPOKE TO THEM, THEY WOULD BE WITHOUT SIN, BUT BECAUSE I HAVE SHOWN THE WORKS I'VE SHOWN AND SAID THE WORDS I'VE SAID THEY HAVE NO CLOAK FOR THEIR SIN!!!!!"



Is that better? Do you understand? If you don't. GET FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND LET GOD GIVE YOU THE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS.

Oh yes I'm filled with the deity, What's that?

"Shelly Swan is a pathetic wretch of a human being who subscribes to an illogical belief system because it is better then her previous incestuous, drug filled life"

God has spoken

[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 11-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

Oh yes I'm filled with the deity, What's that?

"Shelly Swan is a pathetic wretch of a human being who subscribes to an illogical belief system because it is better then her previous incestuous, drug filled life"

God has spoken



That ain't what God said, so it ain't the truth. See, that's an opinion, and since it doesn't speak the TRUTH of God, it is a lie. You know what, You just need someone to love the hell out of you, literally. I'm just gonna love the hell out of you, you can't offend me.



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 11-16-2005).]

How do you know what god's truth is.

What you say?

[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 11-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by literary syphilis:

When I was five.

Edit:

To elucidate: being the intellectually precocious child that I was, I'd already ascertained that Santa Claus couldn't logically exist, much to the chagrin of my various aunts ("But it's magic!" they cried. "Magic doesn't exist," I rebutted with glee).

Around that time, another one of my aunts (I have far too many. Want one?) was a practising hardcore Charismatic and offered to usher me into the fold. Still being ostensibly religious (though not without my doubts as to how logical the concept of the Sky-Daddy was), I agreed, and with her help I prayed and allowed Jesus into my heart.

We held hands and recited that silly, fumbling little prayer ("O Father in Heaven, please forgive me of all my sins so that I may have ever-lasting life.") and when we'd finished ("Amen.") I wasn't struck with a feeling of jubilation or glory, the heavens didn't open; I was just struck with the ineffable silence of the universe. The only feeling that I carried away from the experience was that my prayer was utterly lost to the void.



What a sad little boy you must have been.

Well when you learn to follow master morality sometimes sacrifices must be made.

[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 11-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

What a sad little boy you must have been.

Why do you assume that? I can't say that I ever missed God (though it was kind of irritating to go to church every Sunday).

Because you didn't possess the imagination to have a whimsical childhood ?

Seems quintessential to me.

You're young, you believe in Santa.

In my opinion, you just needed a big HUG.

In my opinion you just need to STFU

Nobody asked you, doll.

I ain't buying your tough guy act, either.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Because you didn't possess the imagination to have a whimsical childhood ?

Seems quintessential to me.

You're young, you believe in Santa.

In my opinion, you just needed a big HUG.

Condecension is both unattractive and counter-productive to your would-be proselytising.

And Santa Claus was a big, fat bastard anyway.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

You can look at the spiritual with this same linear logic however, the formulas and guildlines are just as simple to arrive at the conclusion.

TO arrive at love, contentment, happiness, joy, peace, etc one must first give up those things that are against them. The kicker is God, as a living entity, can not be with us if we live opposed to those above mentioned things.

Here is the logic. If you follow unholy desires of the flesh, are hateful, disobediant, boastful, pridefully seeking self pleasure, a liar, a thief, etc then what you have is a life void of God and filled with the many things of this world that will only serve to pacify an unquenchale inner desire. It creates a unfertile ground for the truth to work as one bad deed leads to one lie and then another to the point where the entire contenance of man is set on fire resulting in depravity.

I want to offer hope in this as God only requires obediance to those things that lead to Love, happiness, joy, contentment and peace.

Give to others of yourself and hold nothing back. Love others when you are hated and never turn your back on someone who is in need. Take care of the widows and orphans and visit those in prison. Give to them what you would want given to you. Which is unyielding, unconditional love. This is the true religion of Christ.

You know, all that is fine. You think however there would be even one person not christian if the above were true?

The problem with christians is that they can't realize that the complex lives of human beings can't possibly be resolved with what a 2000 year old book says about love, joy, happiness and peace. If the answers were really in there, we would have built the perfect society in those 2000 years. It hasn't happened and, oddly enough, the major reason has been those with authority on this book. People had actually to collide with the church for concepts like human rights and equality to be used today (see french revolution).

When you use phrases like "unholy desires of the flesh" and "self-pleasure", it is funny how you contradict God. God created us with flesh and desires, this is how we are born, deal with it. This doesn't mean we should give in to baser insticts 24/7, we are humans, higher than animals, but flesh and desires are part of our nature, and not inherently evil! And what about "self-pleasure"? How can you have happiness without self-pleasure? Empathy is great and we do get pleasure from other people's pleasure, but even that would be impossible without self-pleasure. I mean how am i going to feel good about someone else feeling good if he needs ME to feel good first. It's absurd. Of course, I'm a little overreacting to make my point which is that christians get their information about human psychology from wrong sources.

Honestly it began when I started learning about the whole subject. Catholic high school didn't help either, if I remember correctly we called the Pope Darth Vader and the preist's and Nuns stormtroopers. It's a global dictatorship, you must live by these rules!!!! HA! Live how you want, it's your life not his.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

You know, all that is fine. You think however there would be even one person not christian if the above were true?

I'm not sure what you just wrote...is your question 'stating' that what I said is false? Could you rewrite that, Please?

quote:

The problem with christians is that they can't realize that the complex lives of human beings can't possibly be resolved with what a 2000 year old book says about love, joy, happiness and peace.

That's not exactly what His word is here for. It is the plan of salvation. It is to tell us how and why all of things happen from the very begining to the very end. It is a great invitation for every single one of us. It tells how to conform to what is Heaven. It is take out those of us who are His. As it is written, we will be winnowed like chaff and wheat on the threshing floor. Which is being done as He said. Joy, peace, happiness and so on are secondary to 'working out ones faith with fear and trembling'.

quote:

If the answers were really in there, we would have built the perfect society in those 2000 years. It hasn't happened and, oddly enough, the major reason has been those with authority on this book.

People had actually to collide with the church for concepts like human rights and equality to be used today (see french revolution).

So is the problem with the bible or the way man handles it?

But, you are very close to the answer - perfection in this world is not possible while man lays his hand to the plow. In another post you praise morale relativity but as you see now, man can not be trusted with holding the morale compase.

WHen man sets his own ways - oppression and tyranny is usually the result.

You see, mans morality claims superiority over others while God's says we are all equals in this world.

It is not possible teach God's word and force it on others. "Religion" has skewed 'faith' and tainted 'free will'.

All of us draw in the same air and walk on the same planet. We are all under the same absolute morale laws despite how much we want to change them or get rid of them.

"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" Mt 5:45

It means weather faithful or not, we all go through the good and bad in this world together.

quote:

When you use phrases like "unholy desires of the flesh" and "self-pleasure", it is funny how you contradict God. God created us with flesh and desires, this is how we are born, deal with it. This doesn't mean we should give in to baser insticts 24/7, we are humans, higher than animals, but flesh and desires are part of our nature, and not inherently evil! I won't contend with this view. This is one that I can't reply to. It's between you and yourself or god/God - however you want to see it.

quote:

And what about "self-pleasure"? How can you have happiness without self-pleasure?



Question should be what is "self-pleasure"? This to forgo any thought of anybody else or how it affects others and a disregard for the consequences. This is self servatude at the cost of others.

Pleasure gained from the pain of others is not a good way to find happiness.

quote:

Empathy is great and we do get pleasure from other people's pleasure, but even that would be impossible without self-pleasure. I mean how am i going to feel good about someone else feeling good if he needs ME to feel good first. It's absurd. Of course, I'm a little overreacting to make my point which is that christians get their information about human psychology from wrong sources.

Now that I have clarified what I meant by 'self-pleasure' does the rest of what you say still apply?



[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 11-17-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

Evangelsim isn't about telling people they are wrong - it is about spreading the word of God.

If the word of God you spread to me tells me that I'm wrong, in effect, you are telling me that I am wrong.

A=B

B=C

A=C

quote:Originally posted by Inti:

If the word of God you spread to me tells me that I'm wrong, in effect, you are telling me that I am wrong.

A=B

B=C

A=C

You are right. However, the focus isn't on how wrong we are but on how right we need to be and what happens for us to get there.

The instruction is we have all sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. ~All of us.

The message is to change course and walk the straight and narrow. There is an end to all of this and all of our days are numbered. Accepting Jesus as ones savior doesn't erase how wrong we are in our ways, it just forgives us for it once we turn from it and follow Him.

I walk the straight and narrow, I just don't need a carrot and stick to keep me on it. But because I don't accept a cookie-cutter way of life I must be a sinner and will burn in hell.



[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 11-17-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

I walk the straight and narrow, I just don't need a carrot and stick to keep me on it. But because I don't accept a cookie-cutter way of life I must be a sinner and will burn in hell.





I wish it was that easy. Well, actually it is. Since your life is void of sin, all you need to do is accept Jesus into your heart and your set. He is the ticket to Heaven.

It's like if you are on trial for murder. There is so much evidence against you and you are guilty of it. However, you are representing yourself. Since you are not a lawyer you fumble with the rules and procedures of court and laws and time and time again you are called in contempt of the court. It's inevitable that you're going to roast in the chair.

Having Jesus on your side is like have the best lawyer you could possibly get. (You see, He's the judges son and carries some weight) Having Jesus as your lawyer is awesome because He will tell the judge (God) This one is with me and I have forgiven him, no need to continue with the trial. That's all there is to it. You will be set free.

You know, listening and living with and seeing Christians on a daily basis reminds me of this quote Gandhi (that Indian bastard, most people should know him) once said, it went something like, "Everybody in the world would be a Christian, if it weren't for the Christians."

It's people like HellzShellz raving like a nutcase in the background that turn people off of Christianity. The pushy little missionaries have turned huge parts of Asia against Christianity, just because of their sheer weirdness.

Jesus was everything that Christians are not. For starters, he was cool. He was a rebel in his time. Never mind that his teachings were a bit retarded, and unrealistic. However, his basic teaching of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", is what I attempt to follow in my life. I admire him for his convictions. He believed so strongly in what he taught that he was willing to die for it, all very stupid but it gives this great fuzzy feeling inside. He was a martyr. To me, martyrs like him are great. Jesus' story is a wonderful tragedy. That's it. The psychotic Christians nowadays, who rush wholeheartedly into martyrdom, are just wannabes, that's all.

I can't wait to get back to Antalya, to the Russian chicks, my job, and fun.

I've done nothing wrong Sig and an omniscient being would know that.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

I've done nothing wrong Sig and an omniscient being would know that.



Have you ever heard of the term self-righteous? It is true that we are slaves to that which has mastered us. Not exluding our own carnal desires.

I'll explain;

The laws of the spiritual are hidden to those who do not see or hear the spiritual. What good is it to refrain from indulgence that leads to spiritual death when one is already spiritual dead? A dead man sees nor hears anything. So it is with the spirit.

The laws of God are to govern those which are His. Although we are all subject to it, if you don't follow God then the laws of man are your chains.

That is why it is said, "I'm a slave to Christ" we are either mastered by God or by the world. We are called to be free from the condition of spiritual death. The purpose of life is to get right with God. There is no other.

I'm moral because morality is it's own reward. You follow "slave morality", read up on neitzche, fortunately you are born free your subjugation is of your own design.



I'm free, you are not, a slave claiming he is superior to a merchant is a denial of reality.

14 years old.

I already knew that my faith(catholism)couldn't be all it's cracked to be.Not that it's a bad faith,I see it to be one of the better of christianity,however I felt there had to be reasons behind it.(the faith itself,not whatever historical events have been made because of it)So I did a lil' research here & there,& I fell in love with just learning the knowledge of all things odd & occult,& in general all things just odd.I felt I had to know how things of that nature worked,including using myself into little oddball situations here & there,lol(as to what they can be best described as anyways)

I still got my faith,but I do admit I lost track of it for a little while.Not that I purposely denounced or dropped it,it's just I had nothing much to truly remind me of what it was in the first place even.It helps to know a little bit of all though,as I have seen alot of people who are ignorent sons of a bitches when it comes to religion.The most important thing i've learned out of all this is this one thing:Never mock someone for thier beliefs.

quote:Originally posted by Tyler:

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

I'm moral because morality is it's own reward. You follow "slave morality", read up on neitzche, fortunately you are born free your subjugation is of your own design.



I'm free, you are not, a slave claiming he is superior to a merchant is a denial of reality.

Be free then but, I never claimed superiority over anybody.

score one for freedom





[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 11-18-2005).]