The main flaw I find in "god" according to the bible is he says he loves every human, he then also goes to basically condem people who do not belive in Jesus to eternity in hell. Now lets see if we are all gods children and he loves all of us what happens to the people in africa who never know anythign about this religion, if you stuck 100 people on a deserted island and erased their memory i would bet any amount of money the god they end up worshiping will be a very far shot from todays Christian or Islamic god. So according to the Kuran and the Bible wouldn't these people go to hell? But they were never given a chance to belive in the "right" god and especially not jesus they would have no idea who he is.

What about people raises in other religions, a person raised catholic, or islamic, or jewish or any other religion. I would say99% of the time will none of these people will change their religion before they die, so basically these people were being bone to go to hell. If that is true how can god love everyone and how could we all be his "children".

The only logical explination for this is that "god" doesn't love everyone that infact he doesnt give a shit. That is of course assuming there even is a "god".

[This message has been edited by phurien (edited 11-16-2005).]

^^Very good point. I believe in God, but I also believe that there is a way that everyone can accept Christ. If you don't have the chance to on earth, you do have a second chance before judgement. But anyways, that is also one of my problems with the Catholic religion, among others.

if you don't know, then you won;t be held accountable for it. if somebody has told you, but you choose to ignore it, then that's when you will be condemned.

hope that clears up your misconception for you.

btw, a lot of people in this forum seem to try to persecute the Church. just remember, Jesus is Catholic. We are the same Church that he founded nearly 2000 years ago when he walked upon the Earth. So, to persecute us, is to persecute the Lord. Don't forget that.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Jesus is Catholic.

Jesus was born Jewish. Jesus died Jewish. I have no problem with Catholics, except most of the ones I know follow absolutely nothing the pope says. Why pretend to practice something? I don't know. I don't get it. (Btw, I don't mean to generalize all Catholics, those are just the ones that I know).

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

if you don't know, then you won;t be held accountable for it. if somebody has told you, but you choose to ignore it, then that's when you will be condemned.

hope that clears up your misconception for you.

btw, a lot of people in this forum seem to try to persecute the Church. just remember, Jesus is Catholic. We are the same Church that he founded nearly 2000 years ago when he walked upon the Earth. So, to persecute us, is to persecute the Lord. Don't forget that.



But still there is flaws by the end of our lifetimes we will have people coem to us as say, "accept jesus", "accept mohammod" and so on. On these two especially they are extremly similiar and with presented with the two knowing nothing about either of them before hand it would be a coin flip which one i decided to choose.

Also i never persecuted you, i never said you catholics are bad. I was simply questioning athing i find to be a major fault in almsot every religion, but mostly the catholic church since that was how i raised and really all i know about.

I think the Cathloics believe that God is a nice guy and he will give people who never heard of Jesus a free trip purgatory (most Catholics are suposed to do some time there too). It's the Calvinist type Prodostant Christians that think God will send you to Hell for being born in the wrong place.

What about the catholic god wants people to like him more than he wants the happiness of people?

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:



btw, a lot of people in this forum seem to try to persecute the Church. just remember, Jesus is Catholic. We are the same Church that he founded nearly 2000 years ago when he walked upon the Earth. So, to persecute us, is to persecute the Lord. Don't forget that.

I'm not persecuting, I'm just making a point. I can guarantee I get more crap about my religion than you do. But to make a point: Jesus was not Chatholic, and the Catholic church is not the same as the chuch that was on the earth at Jesus' time.

So, if I hear about this jesus dude and don't believe in him, I'm going to hell? What a stupid idea. If anyone should go to hell, it should be the shitty salesmen doing a half-assed job at selling me jesus. Any n00b salesman knows to strike at his vict-ahem, I mean client's weak spot. You know, everybody's got a hook. If I respond well to logic and science, then he should appeal to that side of me. My point is, it's not my fault these amateur proselytizers can't sell for shit, and I sure as fuck shouldn't be punished for their ineptitude. So there.

Jesus is and was the very first Catholic ever. He FOUNDED the Catholic Church. And while there may be differences in the Church today, all the changes have come from God Himself, via the Pope, who is His living Prophet on Earth.

OK? Do you get it now?

quote:Originally posted by NavySEAL:

I have no problem with Catholics, except most of the ones I know follow absolutely nothing the Pope says.



Dogma is mandatory belief for a Catholic. Following what the Holy Father says id mandatory for a Catholic. We can't pick and choose what we will and will not follow. Those who do, aren't really Catholic at all. They're practising heresy.

Part of Catholic doctrine is about the problem of the hypothetical tribesman - a person living in some remote place who never encountered the Church, and so had no opportunity to be saved by Jesus. Would that person, the tribesman, go to hell? The relevant quote is this, from Pope Pius in 1863:

quote:(T)hose who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

Basically, God only sends to hell the people that have chosen to do Evil. People who had the misfortune to never have the chance to become Catholics are ok.

This interpretation is upheld by the decision of the Vatican II conference.

Also: trichocereus pachanoi - Wasn't the Church actually founded by Peter after Jesus' ascension? Might be wrong about that, but it's not very important.

Well you have to look at the people that wrote the bible. Thew basically wrote it from accounts of people. some people said god was great, some said he killed people. Confusion. the catholic church is one of the most corrupted organizations in the world.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

among their weapons are:

1. the element of surprise

2. nice red uniforms

3. a fanatical devotion to the pope

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Dogma is mandatory belief for a Catholic. Following what the Holy Father says id mandatory for a Catholic. We can't pick and choose what we will and will not follow. Those who do, aren't really Catholic at all. They're practising heresy.

So you follow everything in the bible?

Go stone some gays now.

i'm down, fuckign faggots.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

Go stone some gays now.

Hate is not a good, moral Christian value. We should educate them, that what they are doing is an abomination, and help them to live better lives. I could sit here and condemn gays, but I have my own sins too. Nobody is without it, so none of us have the right to stone anybody else.

[let he who is without sin cast the first stone]

Explain to me why homosexuality is an "abomination".

Hate isn't a christian value, but it's in the bible.

what is sin again?

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

Explain to me why homosexuality is an "abomination".

Hate isn't a christian value, but it's in the bible.

Homosexuality isn't an abomination. If a person is a homosexual they are not sinning. What is an abomination though is sex outside of marriage. Since marriage is for reproduction. I don't think I really need to connect the dots for you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

But yeah, whoever told you that homosexuality or homosexuals are evil is a retard, because that is not the Catholic social teaching.

quote:Also: trichocereus pachanoi - Wasn't the Church actually founded by Peter after Jesus' ascension? Might be wrong about that, but it's not very important.

Yes, but there is a quote in the bible where Jesus tells Peter to create the Church. This is where the Petrine Supremacy comes from and all that papal jazz.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Jesus is and was the very first Catholic ever. He FOUNDED the Catholic Church. And while there may be differences in the Church today, all the changes have come from God Himself, via the Pope, who is His living Prophet on Earth.

OK? Do you get it now?

Actually, Peter was the one that founded the Catholic Church after Jesus died.

Back to the topic. Catholicism doesn't think that just because you worship God with a different name, i.e. Allah, your going to hell. If you were a good human being, you are going to heaven. Saying that someone from a different culture is going to hell just because they were raised a different way or born in a different culture is just stupid. God loves everything he created, even if they believed in him or not.

Baptism by Desire.

If you would like to know God, but are only given a corrupt view, God through his grace baptises you.

And God sends no one to hell. Those who cannot stand his presence choose to separate themselves from God. God, respecting the free will that he gave gives them a place to go.

[This message has been edited by xXPhoenixFireXx (edited 11-27-2005).]

Peter was the rock upon which Jesus founded His Church. The Church was founded as soon as Jesus began teaching others and sharing His divine wisdom. The Church belongs to Christ, and it's His teachings which we follow. So, it's as clear as mud; Jesus founded the Church. Jesus is one with the Church, and the Church is one with Him.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

Explain to me why homosexuality is an "abomination".

Hate isn't a christian value, but it's in the bible.

the Bible refers to sodomy as an abomination.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Jesus is and was the very first Catholic ever. He FOUNDED the Catholic Church. And while there may be differences in the Church today, all the changes have come from God Himself, via the Pope, who is His living Prophet on Earth.

OK? Do you get it now?

What about when the Catholic church was merging Protestant beliefs into its self to make it more acceptable? I don't think that God would have a church change just to make it more acceptable. And does the Pope really claim to he His living prophet? I've never heard that before. Why is a prophet chosen through deliberation of people on a council?

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Peter was the rock upon which Jesus founded His Church. The Church was founded as soon as Jesus began teaching others and sharing His divine wisdom. The Church belongs to Christ, and it's His teachings which we follow. So, it's as clear as mud; Jesus founded the Church. Jesus is one with the Church, and the Church is one with Him.

Jesus was definitely a jew. Peter founded the christian church.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Yes, but there is a quote in the bible where Jesus tells Peter to create the Church. This is where the Petrine Supremacy comes from and all that papal jazz.



Being homosexual involves sex, hence the sexual part. So if you enjoy being around men then you're homophilic?? So therefore being homosexual is being an abomination.

quote:Originally posted by treasureintheattic:

Actually, Peter was the one that founded the Catholic Church after Jesus died.

Back to the topic. Catholicism doesn't think that just because you worship God with a different name, i.e. Allah, your going to hell. If you were a good human being, you are going to heaven. Saying that someone from a different culture is going to hell just because they were raised a different way or born in a different culture is just stupid. God loves everything he created, even if they believed in him or not.



The bible says that worshipping a god other than 'God' is a sin. Not worshipping 'God' is a reason to be sent to hell.

quote:Originally posted by Nidias_91:



Being homosexual involves sex, hence the sexual part. So if you enjoy being around men then you're homophilic?? So therefore being homosexual is being an abomination.

No it isn't. Sodomy and sex outside of marriage is an abomination.

I'd absolutely love it if you could find any papal or Vatican doctorine declaring homosexuality to be "evil" and "abomination" or anything else that is similar.

The God you are to refer to is to be the good god. You forget, God in the name of jesus christ. For jesus was the lamb and not the dragon.

There were two before they were done with the harvest.

The lamb in the name of the good god.

The dragon in the name of the bad god.

catholicism gets the most flak from the extreme left, but in reality i think christianity is way more tolerant then the "religion of peace"

need i post one of the beheading videos? or an excerpt from the koran talking about "smiting the sinners at their necks"

Catholosism is rubbish.

Catholics say they believe in god and read his word in the bible. But how many catholics have actually read the bible outside of mass? They'll find ->

Mary is not a virgin - she had more sons than jesus, and not in any spiritual way. So she is not the everlasting virgin.

There are so many stories that dont add up, stuff that doesnt make sense, or stuff that has evidence.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

No it isn't. Sodomy and sex outside of marriage is an abomination.

I'd absolutely love it if you could find any papal or Vatican doctorine declaring homosexuality to be "evil" and "abomination" or anything else that is similar.

OK, I guess I could've put it better. So.

Being gay means being homosexual. Gay marriage is not true christian marriage, therefore gays cannot get properly married in the christian way. Therefore gays (notice that to be gay you mustve had gay sex) are abominations automatically.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Jesus is and was the very first Catholic ever. He FOUNDED the Catholic Church. And while there may be differences in the Church today, all the changes have come from God Himself, via the Pope, who is His living Prophet on Earth.

OK? Do you get it now?

Riiiiiiiight... We don't even know if Jesus even existed, but Constantine created the church as we know it today and brought the rest of that bullshit to europe. *gives the finger to darth ratzinger*

All the churches have came out of someones @$$. I mean who says *pay me money and I will forgive you*

quote:Originally posted by Nidias_91:

OK, I guess I could've put it better. So.

Being gay means being homosexual. Gay marriage is not true christian marriage, therefore gays cannot get properly married in the christian way. Therefore gays (notice that to be gay you mustve had gay sex) are abominations automatically.

You don't have to have gay sex to be homosexual, just like you don't have to have straight sex to be heterosexual.

You're just spinning you're wheels, because the Vatican has come out and said that homosexuality is NOT an abomination and that gays are NO MORE sinful than heterosexuals are. Gay sex is no more sinful than straight sex is, assuming both were performed outside of marriage. Catholicism doesn't single out gays in any way in regards to their sins. When it comes to the priesthood, yes, but do to recent news articles, I think you can understand why they've been so reactionary(though I and many other people don't agree with it, but we still understand why they did it).

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

You don't have to have gay sex to be homosexual, just like you don't have to have straight sex to be heterosexual.

You're just spinning you're wheels, because the Vatican has come out and said that homosexuality is NOT an abomination and that gays are NO MORE sinful than heterosexuals are. Gay sex is no more sinful than straight sex is, assuming both were performed outside of marriage. Catholicism doesn't single out gays in any way in regards to their sins. When it comes to the priesthood, yes, but do to recent news articles, I think you can understand why they've been so reactionary(though I and many other people don't agree with it, but we still understand why they did it).

Then why do man religious people say shit like that?

http://www.godhatesfags.com

Hey dumbass, what sect is mentioned in the title? This isn't about christianity in general , but rather it's about Catholicism. I can't speak for other sects, but Catholicism doesn't teach that. I swear to God totse is infested with people who can't read.

quote:Homosexuality isn't an abomination. If a person is a homosexual they are not sinning. What is an abomination though is sex outside of marriage. Since marriage is for reproduction. I don't think I really need to connect the dots for you.

You didn't learn much of the Bible in Catholic school, did ya ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

1 Corinthians 7:2 - "...each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband."

Could it be any more clear than that ? No ? Mmk. Here's a verse directly from a Jewish Bible:

Leviticus 18:22 - "You are not to go to bed with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination."

And another...

1 Corinthians 6:9 - "Don't you know that the unrighteous people will have no share in the Kingdom of God ? Don't delude yourselves - people who engage in sex before marriage, who worship idols, who engage in sex after marriage with someone other than your spouse, who engage in active or passive homosexuality..." (it goes on to name all the other sins)

Romans 1:27 - "...and likewise the men, giving up natural relations with the opposite sex, burned with passion for one another, men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in their own persons the penalty appropriate to their perversion."

Paul doesn't sound too fond of these behaviors, now does he ?

The reason I use the Jewish Bible is to head off any claims you will make that the English translation is incorrect. (lots of people try to say that the translation is actually "effeminate", but that is simply not true.)

I think these verses alone make it very clear that homosexuality is sexual immorality.

quote:But yeah, whoever told you that homosexuality or homosexuals are evil is a retard, because that is not the Catholic social teaching.

Homosexuality is a sin, like all others. It is no greater, or no less, than any other sin.

People are not ostracized for lying and stealing like they are for practicing homosexuality, and this is simply wrong.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 01-27-2006).]

I got caught in a temporal loop, I'm referring to the comment directly below me. Like medicine and working on sundays.

[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 01-28-2006).]

A sin is a sin in the sight of God, however there are different magnitudes to sins. Killing is obviously not on par with shoplifting. I think that homosexuality, a perversion of sex (which btw, is stated to be one of the worst sins) is much worse than lying or stealing.

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

among their weapons are:

1. the element of surprise

2. nice red uniforms

3. a fanatical devotion to the pope

The...Comfy Chair?

Having brown eyes is the worst sin of all.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You didn't learn much of the Bible in Catholic school, did ya ?

I guess you didn't learn reading comprehension(just like you didn't learn math) in your shitty public school.

I said, and the Catholic belief is that being homosexual is not a sin. There is nothing sinful about a homosexual sitting in a chair, walking down the street, reading a book, or shopping for groceries. There is NOTHING sinful about being a homosexual. However, it is sinful to have homosexual sex. I never denied that. If you would have maybe actually read my post instead of hopping at the chance to attack Catholicism, you may have noticed that.

quote:1 Corinthians 7:2 - "...each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband."

Could it be any more clear than that ? No ? Mmk. Here's a verse directly from a Jewish Bible:

This has nothing to do with whether just being a homosexual is a sin. NOTHING. Your inability to post relevant information is amazing. You truly are the biggest dumbass among a sea of dumbasses that is totse.

quote:Leviticus 18:22 - "You are not to go to bed with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination."

If you would have actually read my post, you would have noticed how I pretty clearly said that homosexual acts are sins... Way to read... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:1 Corinthians 6:9 - "Don't you know that the unrighteous people will have no share in the Kingdom of God ? Don't delude yourselves - people who engage in sex before marriage, who worship idols, who engage in sex after marriage with someone other than your spouse, who engage in active or passive homosexuality..." (it goes on to name all the other sins)

What bible is that quote from, because I know for a fact that the word homosexuality is not in the bible, and more shockingly that this isn't Corinthians 6:9

"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites

10

nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

11

That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

That wuote is a misrepresentation of christianity, and you should be ashamed of yourself for using it.

quote:Romans 1:27 - "...and likewise the men, giving up natural relations with the opposite sex, burned with passion for one another, men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in their own persons the penalty appropriate to their perversion."

Paul doesn't sound too fond of these behaviors, now does he ?

Well he isn't, but we aren't talking about just behaviors, we're talking about being homosexual, which in and of itself is not a sin. I know this will be hard for you to digest considering you're a fundie and you have a burning hate for all things "gay", but being gay is not wrong. Having gay sex is wrong, but being gay isn't wrong. Being gay isn't wrong. Being gay isn't wrong. Being gay isn't wrong(sorry to repeat myself, but I heard repetition helps people with learning disabilities remember things better).

quote:The reason I use the Jewish Bible is to head off any claims you will make that the English translation is incorrect. (lots of people try to say that the translation is actually "effeminate", but that is simply not true.)

I think these verses alone make it very clear that homosexuality is sexual immorality.[/b]



No, those passages make it clear that homosexual acts are sinful, but that isn't up for discussion as Catholics agree with that stance. You're saying that being gay is a sin, which is FALSE.

quote:Homosexuality is a sin, like all others. It is no greater, or no less, than any other sin.

People are not ostracized for lying and stealing like they are for practicing homosexuality, and this is simply wrong.

Homosexuality isn't a sin!!!

For Christ's sake I want to get this through your little fundie brain. Being gay is not bad, evil or sinful!

one question. why would god punish someone for the urges that he supposedly put in them?

refuting "the devil does it" arguement. If god is omnipotent then he can easily stop the urge and turn them straight.

I have a question too.

Does the bible validate the church

or the other way around?

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

one question. why would god punish someone for the urges that he supposedly put in them?

refuting "the devil does it" arguement. If god is omnipotent then he can easily stop the urge and turn them straight.

No one is punished for their urges, they're punished for giving into their urges. Righ now I want to eat something, but since I'm training for track I know I shouldn't. I have the urge to eat but I'm not giving into it. See the difference.

It has to do with self-control.

quote:I have a question too.

Does the bible validate the church

or the other way around?

Bible validates the Church

Matthew 16:18-19

18

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.""

Peter was the first pope.

Hey dickhead! Nobodys shoving catholosism up your ass. Don't worry about it. Some people are truely retarted when it comes to religion.