Lets say thier is a god.

A christian god to be particular.

A few hundred years ago it was ok to kill people in the name of god or in a situation were "satisfaction" was to be met. Anyway you get the drift but know days the church says that killing for any reason is wrong. I mean a guy tried to kill the pope years ago and he even forgave him.

So what im wondering is which is correct, what people used to think or what they think now. And if its what people think now then wouldnt all of those people, years ago, gone to hell?

Just curious.

quote:Originally posted by Fai1safe:

Lets say thier is a god.

A christian god to be particular.

A few hundred years ago it was ok to kill people in the name of god or in a situation were "satisfaction" was to be met. Anyway you get the drift but know days the church says that killing for any reason is wrong. I mean a guy tried to kill the pope years ago and he even forgave him.

So what im wondering is which is correct, what people used to think or what they think now. And if its what people think now then wouldnt all of those people, years ago, gone to hell?

Just curious.

Nobody knows who is destined for hell or not. It isn't for us to judge. But, what you're talking about is two different covenants God had with the Jews in Israel and then the Gentiles after the era of Jesus began.

The authority given to the Jews to practice capitol punishment for sins no longer stands as you have explained. It was abolished when Jesus said, "Let whoever has no sin cast the first stone" or something like that.



Therefore, if the stoneing was done under the covenent they had with God it is not a sin. This was within the civil laws given to them from Moses on Mt. Sinai. there is a deeper explaination in the book of Exodus after chapter 20 and the book of Leviticus.

WHy is there capitol punishment today? I'm not sure but it is not widely accepted in our governments. If you were to stone someone for their sin today you would be wrong. If you were to stone them 2030 years ago you would be justified.

As for all of the people who died before Jesus' time, his resurrection allowed them to be able to go to heaven. His suffering payed for all of their sins too. Of course God wouldn't damn people just because they happened to live before Jesus did.

Actually according to church doctrine all the people born before Christ aren't allowed into Heaven since they never accepted Jesus as their saviour. Compassionate, isn't it?

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

Nobody knows who is destined for hell or not. It isn't for us to judge. But, what you're talking about is two different covenants God had with the Jews in Israel and then the Gentiles after the era of Jesus began.

I believe he's talking about murder sanctioned by the catholic church, which by definition occured after Jesus.

For example the Crusades. Or perhaps the Inquisition. Or say the wars fought for greed and ambition by popes in Italy and France at various times in the last millenia.

Did the ten commandments say "thou shalt not kill... unless you're a high ranking member of the church, or political figure they favor"? Nope, I just checked and it's pretty clear on that score. So were those popes and their buddies sinners? I mean they did proclaim their own holiness, and since they are religious figures they must be right about that. Right? (look up Pope Borgia for shits and giggles)

Seems like one of the fundamental problems with the church, the way it relies on varying subjective interpretation while at the same time insisting on absolute certainty about the will of God. This religious man said God wants this, while another religious man said God wants that, so who are we to believe? According to the church, both of them! Isn't it the same church which says that man is fundamentally flawed and imperfect? Then how can we trust human beings to interpret exactly what God wants? I mean, hey, we definitely shouldn't think for ourselves, get thee behind me Satan for planting such a thought in my head.

Of all the vicious animals in the wild, the mind is the most cunning.

To win against a christian, be neither for or against their religion. Find the key to going beyond mind.

When you stand face to face with even the most ignorant of christians, without a thought in your brain, the most unsettling feeling arises in them, that unsettling feeling is their resistance built into them to stop them from seeing the truth. Those who tell you "SMILE!" do not want to see your real face, they want a fake one. A fake one assures them you're asleep and lying to yourself, like them. Look at their eyes, these people aren't your friends, these people are not looking at you. Their eyes meet yours, but they are not looking at you. They're mechanical robots ready to recite a scripture without deep reflection, and then pretend it should mean something to anyone.

Without sinners, there can be no saints. If you have no mind, you cannot be a sinner or a saint, you just ARE. If you are standing there content with just the moment, then what to do with you? How to judge you? They will look at you confusedly, how dare you not fit into a box? How dare you be free?

Let them fall to pieces in their own misery. Trust yourself, not your mind, but your true self. It's there, it's so close, you just have to find it.



[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 11-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

I believe he's talking about murder sanctioned by the catholic church, which by definition occured after Jesus.

here's something for you to nibble on...most Catholics do not consider themselves Christians. You'll have to ask a Catholic about that one?? I'm not sure how it pertains but that is what came to mind.

quote:

For example the Crusades. Or perhaps the Inquisition. Or say the wars fought for greed and ambition by popes in Italy and France at various times in the last millenia.

There were many bible believing Christians that were tortured and murdered in the Inquisition because they wouldn't follow the pope in that time. You'll have to get down to the bare facts to understand how and why things were done. I'm not a historian so I can not comment much further on it. Only thing I can suggest is keep an open mind. If you go in with bias you will find all the information you want to see to fit the bias.

quote:

Did the ten commandments say "thou shalt not kill... unless you're a high ranking member of the church, or political figure they favor"? Nope, I just checked and it's pretty clear on that score. So were those popes and their buddies sinners? I mean they did proclaim their own holiness, and since they are religious figures they must be right about that. Right? (look up Pope Borgia for shits and giggles)

There is a thing called whiter sepulcher Christianity. Jesus called it white washed tombs all clean on the outside but on the inside are filled with dead mens bones. These are the men who define hypocrisy by saying one thing then doing another.

quote:

Seems like one of the fundamental problems with the church, the way it relies on varying subjective interpretation while at the same time insisting on absolute certainty about the will of God. This religious man said God wants this, while another religious man said God wants that, so who are we to believe?

The answer is :

Neither ~

To discern who is proclaiming truth then what is taught has to match the scripture and the scripture must be in concordance with what is taught. There is only one Gospel message and it's sealed for all times. Anybody that teaches or acts contrary is in danger of condemnation themselves.

quote:

According to the church, both of them! Isn't it the same church which says that man is fundamentally flawed and imperfect?

Sorry, you answered your own question with a straw man type arguement. Therefore, the rest of your rant kind of falls apart from here.

quote:

Then how can we trust human beings to interpret exactly what God wants? I mean, hey, we definitely shouldn't think for ourselves, get thee behind me Satan for planting such a thought in my head.

The issue here is the difference between religion and relationship. This is what the bible is intended for. It keeps things straight and is the anchor for our faith.

Religion requires you to trust and follow mans interpretation and you have seen the obvious flaw in doing so. It takes no faith to follow rules and what someone tells you. Therefore, it is false. Faith is a requirement.

Relationship requires a metaphysical divine presence in ones life. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit through faith and repentence. The Holy Spirit of God that dwells in us is what we trust. Through the surrender to Jesus is how this happens.

He will send the comforter and the counseler to prompt us and protect us from when things are not according to God's will. I am not just saying this because I read it, I'm saying it because I testify to it being true in my life. Jesus is the Mesiah, the Holy Son of God that came to pay for the sins of Mankind.

Nobody is able to understand any of the Kingdom of God wihtout Him revealing it to us first.

Imperfectcircle was right i was talking about more modern then 2000 years ago.

Its funny how this has been turned into a topic about interpretation, i was just simply pointing out that with all the killing christians have done over the years heavens gonna be a small place.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

here's something for you to nibble on...most Catholics do not consider themselves Christians. You'll have to ask a Catholic about that one??

Wrong. Right-wing fundamentalist Protestants don't consider Catholics as Christians.

Actually I think it's funny how every denomination says they are right in their beliefs and the rest of the world is wrong and is going to Hell.

I've never met a "true" Christian. Every person I've ever seen thats called themselves Christians don't live what they preach. Pure Hipocrisy.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Wrong. Right-wing fundamentalist Protestants don't consider Catholics as Christians.



I've come across countless Cahtolics who say they are not Christian. (maybe they meant protestant??)

quote:Originally posted by Megrim:

Actually I think it's funny how every denomination says they are right in their beliefs and the rest of the world is wrong and is going to Hell.

I've never met a "true" Christian. Every person I've ever seen thats called themselves Christians don't live what they preach. Pure Hipocrisy.

The kicker is nobody has it right..not one. All have fallen short of the glory of God. Anybody who tries to practice love through a set of dogmatic rituals is missing the point all together. Following God by faith through our actions is a spontanious and situational thing.

Fai1safe is on point - He said ," Its funny how this has been turned into a topic about interpretation, i was just simply pointing out that with all the killing christians have done over the years heavens gonna be a small place."

I don't know the number of the multitudes that will be in Heaven but you are right. There is a passage that says not everyone that says Lord, Lord will make it into Heaven. There are many false teachers and prophets that mislead, and stir man to war against his brother.

As one of the lyrics in one of my favorite songs goes "Satan laughing spreads his wings" This is in the song 'War Pigs' by Black Sabath. It is an anti-war song but, the depth of the meaning of the song is Satan has stirred man to battle and the generals are guilty of waging it for unjust reasons. They will be sorry on judgement day says Ozzy. (Interesting to see how much Jesus was spoken in the old 60's rock)

I think that speaks to what you are talking about. (Never thought I would use Black Sabbath to talk about a spiritual point)



[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 11-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:



I've come across countless Cahtolics who say they are not Christian. (maybe they meant protestant??)



Were they on drugs? Catholics have always been the "original" Christians, followers of Christ, and Protestants formed out of the original Catholic Church during the Reformation a few centuries back.

A Catholic couldn't say they are not Christian without also meaning they are not Catholics either. It's like some Shia Muslim saying they aren't Muslim.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

Were they on drugs? Catholics have always been the "original" Christians, followers of Christ, and Protestants formed out of the original Catholic Church during the Reformation a few centuries back.

A Catholic couldn't say they are not Christian without also meaning they are not Catholics either. It's like some Shia Muslim saying they aren't Muslim.



I agree with you but non the less, they have said it plainly.

I have never met a Catholic who stated that they were not a Christian.

Whether or not they brand themselves "Christian" or not is irrelevant at any rate. God will judge them on their faith and piety, not the name they call themselves. If you disagree with my on that point, it's worth noting that St Augustine of Hippo considered the Mithraites to be Christians whether or not they actually branded themselves such.