Bare with me, this will take a moment.

I have fish and I like my fish quite a bit. Recently I just got two new fish and when I went to feed them the other day the only one who came up to the glass was the older one, who recognized me. He recognized me and knew I was about to drop food into the tank. The other fish didn't recognize me so they didn't react to me.

So, I was thinking about this and I was thinking about when I was thirteen how I took a trip to Hawaii and I saw all these tropical fish while snorkling. About how they all looked exactly alive and how they all moved at the same time in the same direction, like one big fish. I started to wonder if I cracked open the head of two fish of the same kind would their brains been exactly alike?

I've seen several human brains and no human brain is exactly alike. But, what about the fish? If they are alike then that would entail that they're practically clones of each other. But, if their brains are different that would entail that every fish is different.

That they each have a personality.

And if they each have a personality, they would each have a soul. I'm not talking about a soul like god gave us a soul or anything. I mean, a soul in the sense that they have a presence that lives on without their physical being.

Prepare yourself because this may seem non sequitor, but it's not:

I grew up in the funeral industry and I currently work as a restorative esthetician. I've seen a lot of death. And I was thinking about the 21 grams.

We all know that the body loses 21 grams when we die. This is assumed to be "the breath of life" or the spirit leaving the body. Of course, there's no scientific way to prove that it's the spirit so there's no actual scientific explanation for the 21 grams phenomenon.

But, what I was wondering and had never thought of before is, do animals lose 21 grams when they die? Because if they do, that also implies that they have a soul and if you read the bible is says at certain points that the beasts of the land are souless. So, that would be incorrect.

Or has it changed? Do animals need people to give them soul like we need god to give us soul?

Just day to day ponderings.

Cheers,

Lost

Only one way to find out; get a job at the pound as a euthanasia tech and a really good scale.

I think animals have a consciousness of sorts, but it isn't the same thing as a human soul.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 21 grams has never actually been sufficiently proven. Do you have any real scienific studies behind it or anything? Because I was under the impression that the only studies that were actually done were a long time ago and rather flawed.

I think you'll find that goldfish won't have brains that are exactly alike and that, even if they did, they would not be practically clones of each other because no two goldfish look exactly the same on the outside, either.

I don't know if differences in brains would necessitate the existance of a personality as we know it, though who is to say that goldfish don't have personalities? But if you are going to assume that each fish has a personality simply because they are all different you then have to assign a personality to all living things, as no two are exactly alike. So while you might go as far as deciding that your goldfish have personalities, would you think that about the grass in your backyard, the spider you squashed the other day, a jellyfish, a tree?

quote:Originally posted by penguinofdoom:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 21 grams has never actually been sufficiently proven. Do you have any real scienific studies behind it or anything? Because I was under the impression that the only studies that were actually done were a long time ago and rather flawed.

I think you'll find that goldfish won't have brains that are exactly alike and that, even if they did, they would not be practically clones of each other because no two goldfish look exactly the same on the outside, either.

I don't know if differences in brains would necessitate the existance of a personality as we know it, though who is to say that goldfish don't have personalities? But if you are going to assume that each fish has a personality simply because they are all different you then have to assign a personality to all living things, as no two are exactly alike. So while you might go as far as deciding that your goldfish have personalities, would you think that about the grass in your backyard, the spider you squashed the other day, a jellyfish, a tree?

You're right. It hasn't been scientifically proven. These are just things I wonder from time to time. Sometimes I like to wonder what it would be like if the martians landed and tried to eat everyone.

Cheers,

Lost

Obviously they aren't clones... They may have far less possible traits then humans because they are so much more primitive but they are not clones.

This might be a tad cruel but, why don't you get your scales and, weigh the fish, then kill the fish and see if there is a 21 gram drop?

I do not condone animal cruelty and there for would be really appalled if you actually did this.

When you are dealing with such a small amount of weight, a very controlled environment needs to be set.

Tie the fish up in an airtight condom on a good electronic scale in a microchip clean room, and then see. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Only significance of 21 grams is that it is exactly 2 eighths short of an ounce.

Although thinking about it, a fish is much smaller than a human, so it probably would be much less than 21 grams.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

But, what I was wondering and had never thought of before is, do animals lose 21 grams when they die?

When that guy did the exsperiment he killed some dogs too. They did not lose weight like the people did.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:



But, what I was wondering and had never thought of before is, do animals lose 21 grams when they die? Because if they do, that also implies that they have a soul and if you read the bible is says at certain points that the beasts of the land are souless. So, that would be incorrect.

Or has it changed? Do animals need people to give them soul like we need god to give us soul?

Just day to day ponderings.

Cheers,

Lost



Not incorrect. First of all, In the OT, is where the thing about the animals and souls is written. In Hebrew, the word they used for 'soul' meant more than one thing. In fact it have several different meanings. Animals do have souls, because they're able to reason, with limitation, they too show emotion, in a less amount than mankind.

Here

Ecclesiastes 3:21

Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?

The word is pneuma, meaning breath, wind, spirit, and more. Breath should have been translated, dealing with animals, and the BREATH of God is what causes the things to be. Remember, God SPOKE everything into existence. Animals don't have spirits, they have a Soul and a body. When animals die, that's it, they're dead.

There's a difference between a soul, spirit, and body. I've made mention of this before. The 'soul' is the mind. The 'spirit' is the REAL you, the inner you, or the HEART. The Body is the physical side of things. You don't run with your mind, or your heart, you run with your body. Man is a spirit being, with a soul, living in a body.

The NT was written in a different language, therefore it's more accurate.

Read Romans 12:1,2. Read James 1:21-25

In James you see, "Receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls (mind). Paul said, "But be ye transformed by the Renewing of your mind(soul).

God's word saves the soul (mind). But, "By Grace are you saved through faith." The REAL you is the inner you, the spirit being, the heart.

If you need more help understanding God's Word, Try actually seeking God believeing Him, and not trying to disprove Him, it's been tried before, it's never been a success.

If you're sincere in wanting to know more about the Mind, Body, and Heart, Try reading, 'Man on Three Dimensions', and 'The Human Spirit' By Kenneth E. Hagin.





[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 12-10-2005).]

"Pneuma" is Greek if it's anything.

Pneumonia.

I'm sorry, but it's Hebrew.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 12-10-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Ecclesiastes 3:21

Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?

The word is pneuma, meaning breath, wind, spirit, and more. Breath should have been translated, dealing with animals, and the BREATH of God is what causes the things to be. Remember, God SPOKE everything into existence. Animals don't have spirits, they have a Soul and a body. When animals die, that's it, they're dead.

Sounds to me more like you're just picking and choosing different translations to fit your beliefs instead of understanding what the verse actually says. The dealie here is that in ancient times breath was thought to be the essence of life, what they called the spirit. I don't think the different ideas about the soul vs. spirit were formulated until later on. Though I could be wrong, I haven't really looked into it. The only time I really read about it was when I was looking into alchemy. The alchemists believed that everything had soul, body, and spirit components. There were three of these to match the number of gods in the trinity.

The breath of God and God speaking things into existence aren't really the same thing. The breath of God is used in the older story of Adam and Eve after he molds Adam into his form. In the Priestly creation story of Genesis 1 the idea of God speaking things into existence was taken from the Sumerians' Tablet of Destinies. He does all the work, including making the body just by voice.

My personal belief is that animals do have a consciousness, and that this consciousness can (but not necessarily does) survive death. But something doesn't have to have mass to be real... take computer programs for example. They're just information, but you can still think of them as things. Download a few gigs of files onto your hard drive and see if it weighs anymore afterward. My guess as to the origin of consciousness is that it's some sort of quantum effect produced by brain activity, but not necessarily restricted to the brain. So there you have it.

By the way, your story reminds me of a fish that I had several years ago. He/she was a very friendly fish and would come up to the glass for anyone who came by. I think I may have underfed it by misreading the instructions, but it still seemed a lot like an individual in ways.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



I'm sorry, but it's Hebrew.



http://www.answers.com/pneuma&r=67

pneu·ma (nū'mə, nyū'-)

n.

The soul or vital spirit.

[Greek.]

Lost have you ever wieghed a body to prove this?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0315733/ hmmm so they made a movie about it.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

http://www.ghoststudy.com/monthly/mar05/soul.htm

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



I'm sorry, but it's Hebrew.



Have you ever heard any Hebrew words? 'Pneuma" doesn't sound like one at all, and it isn't.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Have you ever heard any Hebrew words? 'Pneuma" doesn't sound like one at all, and it isn't.

You're right, it is greek. Rauh isn't though. That's the Hebrew word for it. Now I feel stupid.

**But I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico.** http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) That's smart, right?

Hey lost you will like my story.

When I was little I had a dog. We left him at home for a few hours in the back yard and he missed us. He jumped on the glass window in the door and broke it.

When we came home he was hiding cowered in a corner. He knew what he did was bad. We had to comfort him and show affection. He finally got up and was ok.

Do animals have a soul? I believe they do. As for fish moving in groups, its learned. You stay in a big group you wont get eaten. If you straggle, youll get picked off quickly. I believe everything has a spirit. but I also play a lot of final fantasy too. And other RPGs.

Why wont dogs, and cats look you in the eyes?



I also grew up with my uncle as a funeral director, I have seen lots of dead bodies. I always was amazed by the lifeless look that people have like something in gone. A carrier perhaps? You get that same look from dead animals.

The 21 grams thing Is always debatable. Ive heard an argument about gravity and such, but Its the same aproxomate weight from babies to the morbidly obease.

Im not sure, but I know that all dogs go to heaven.

To the best of my knowledge Christians believe animals have souls and go to Heaven when they die. I suppose that's only if the animals have been good though.

Why is it that only humans can go to Hell? Why the Hell don't dogs have to believe before they go to Heaven?

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

To the best of my knowledge Christians believe animals have souls and go to Heaven when they die.

I thought it was only the driect decendents of Adam and Eve that got souls and that is what sepreates men from animals.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

To the best of my knowledge Christians believe animals have souls and go to Heaven when they die. I suppose that's only if the animals have been good though.

Why is it that only humans can go to Hell? Why the Hell don't dogs have to believe before they go to Heaven?



Crazed, Maybe you missed the part about what a soul is? I don't know why ignorant Christians believe the soul and the spirit are the same thing!?!?! Humans are the ONLY beings with SPIRITS. NOT the only beings with SOULS.

Let us read what you said.

quote:To the best of my knowledge Christians believe animals have souls and go to Heaven when they die. I suppose that's only if the animals have been good though.



To the best of your knowledge... Have you ever taken psychology?

Animals lack the ability to discern, or choose. They don't, and can't reason. Therefore, they can't tell what is 'good' or 'bad'. It doesn't exist in their little world. They act by IMPULSE, or INSTINCT.

Animals, are selfish. They know what their flesh wants, and pay no mind(unable to reason) their surroundings. It's like their eye is on the target, the target is what satisfies their bodies[flesh](what is sensual to it). The target is all they're seeing. They're not seeing Cindy Lou's little feelings getting hurt when it steals her ice cream.

How many animals have you had that ended up getting ran over on the road?