Okay what would have to happen to you, or would have to be discovered/reported upon to get you to stop believing in your belief? We must all have some point where we'd realize that we were wrong, and would change our views.

To get me to believe in Christianity, which is really the only other significant religion on totse, I would have to see several things. First of which would have to be some real clues suggesting that the earth may actually be a mere 6000 years old and not just a few circumstances under which modern science fails because of contamination or human error, which still only gives imperfect dates, not 6000 year dates. Wow there's way too much to go into, because there are a lot of other things I'd think before miracle even if I got an explanation as to how a man could be eaten by a whale and survive or a small boat could hold millions of species. If some remains of Abraham or whoever were found and discovered that they had lived well over 150 years, then that would help. If Jesus' remains were found and undiscribable human chemistry was found inside his body that significantly suggested tampering by some greater being it would help as well. However, there is still a long way to go.

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

Okay what would have to happen to you, or would have to be discovered/reported upon to get you to stop believing in your belief? We must all have some point where we'd realize that we were wrong, and would change our views.

To get me to believe in Christianity, which is really the only other significant religion on totse, I would have to see several things. First of which would have to be some real clues suggesting that the earth may actually be a mere 6000 years old and not just a few circumstances under which modern science fails because of contamination or human error, which still only gives imperfect dates, not 6000 year dates. Wow there's way too much to go into, because there are a lot of other things I'd think before miracle even if I got an explanation as to how a man could be eaten by a whale and survive or a small boat could hold millions of species. If some remains of Abraham or whoever were found and discovered that they had lived well over 150 years, then that would help. If Jesus' remains were found and undiscribable human chemistry was found inside his body that significantly suggested tampering by some greater being it would help as well. However, there is still a long way to go.



First, to answer your post, i suppose that after i die i will know or not know... period.

Now, to address one point in your post...

quote:If Jesus' remains were found and undiscribable human chemistry was found inside his body that significantly suggested tampering by some greater being it would help as well.

From the perspective of my answer to your question.. this would be the closest thing that could possibly shake my faith to the point of disbelief (this is not an attempt to tempt God to test me... i just dont know how to phrase it better).

However, as for you thinking that this might help you (possibily) to Believe.. sorry. This would do exactly the opposite. You see,

Jesus the Christ was raised from the dead, so there should not be any physical remains of His earthly body.

verification

You present some problems that can be answered but I can only tell you how to find the answers. If I told you wouldn't believe me anyway.

God puts out stumbling blocks and walls. This is why Jesus spoke in parables. He explained it because if people clearly understood it they would turn and believe. I want you to understand that would negate the purpose of the "net" or the "strain" or the "threshing floor" We must be refined and purified before we understand any of it.

That process includes believing there is a God, then accepting that we are fallen, imperfect sinners far from the grace of God, then repentence or to stop living opposed to God and seeking forgiveness, then baptism by water and the holy Spirit becoming born again in spirit.

To understand the scriptures is 4 parts. All passages of the bible have multi dimensional meanings. This is the true bible code. There is an outter most interpretation. This is the face story we see that stops most people from getting a deeper understanding.

Since you used the story of Jonah and the large fish I will use it as an example of how to understand what I am saying.

After the outter most interpretation there is also an alagorical, homilitical and inner most hidden interpretation. Your level of faith and biblical knowledge will lead you to that inner most meaning and will open your person to hearing the still silent voice of God.

Only humility and perfect surrender will get you to this deep of understanding. This is the level where God speaks to you through His written word in your daily walk. This is where the word is alive.

As for the interpretation of Jonah and the whale - you can not take one passage out of the bible and get a complete understanding of what it means. You must know the 'big picture' of alpha to omega (begining to end) and see where it fits in.

The outter most meaning of Jonah and the whale is simply what you see. A man is told to do something by God, he argues with God, runs away, gets thrown off a ship in the middle of a sea, gets swollowed by a large fish (doesn't say whale) and lives inside the fish for 3 days. On the third day he is spit out of the fish and begins a new life and ministry for God.

The alagorical measage or the symbolic message is a story of being born again. The stage of rebellion, to isolation, to repentence, to forgiveness and to servitude. It is the process all must go through to enter into the Kingdom of God. (This is supported by what Jesus said about being born again - since he referred to this in His ministry)

The homilitical message or the morale message is God is gracious, merciful and loves all of us. He is patient through all our rebellion and waits for us to come back to Him. (The parabal of the prodigal son supports this)

The inner most meaning is .... you decide... it is what God speaks to you in it's right time and place. There is no interpretation that can be given at this level as it is when God prompts us with the Holy Spirit.

An example would be if someone says show me proof that God exists - Jesus said, that this generation will only see the sign of Jonah.

This is the only miracle this generation will see. A born again person who is transformed from a life of sin and rebellion to an upright person living their life along the path of straight and narrow to please God.

The only proof of God lies in the heart and mind of a person born again of spirit. Once that person is given the true life of spirit then all things are revealed to them and then there is no need for proof because they/we know by relationship and not ritualistic religion. I don't know God through chants or dances. I know Him by what He has done inside my heart and mind.

The rest is impossible to explain.

Sorry for the long post but I have to do what I have to do. Questions?

So, Sig_Intel. What would it take for you to stop believing in Christianity?

I'm not sure how much it'd take for me to start believing in Christianity. I already have a worldview that includes magic/psionics, so I would explain prayer and faith healing with that. And I couldn't know for sure even if I died and went to heaven that it wasn't just a creation of my own mind. Perhaps if there was some way to objectively figure out whether it was true or not, such as practical research into spiritual dimensions (yeah, right)...

Other than that, I'm pretty much beyond being convinced. I study the Bible in depth every now and then, and I see no divine inspiration. Just human thought.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 12-13-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

So, Sig_Intel. What would it take for you to stop believing in Christianity?

It's not possible - once you know and have tasted the joy of living water my friend there is impossible to deny Him. If one does deny God after He reveals Himself then the outcome is not good.

quote:

I'm not sure how much it'd take for me to start believing in Christianity. I already have a worldview that includes magic/psionics, so I would explain prayer and faith healing with that. And I couldn't know for sure even if I died and went to heaven that it wasn't just a creation of my own mind. Perhaps if there was some way to objectively figure out whether it was true or not, such as practical research into spiritual dimensions (yeah, right)...

I have tried to explain it. The answer is right in front of you. "A tree is known by it's fruit" - " a bad tree cannot bare good fruit." so it stands - a man who never loved now loves. It isn't a mystery but it stands right in front of everyone in full view.

quote:

Other than that, I'm pretty much beyond being convinced. I study the Bible in depth every now and then, and I see no divine inspiration. Just human thought.



If you knocked on the coffin of a dead man would he be able to hear you? No, he wouldn't - therefore, how can one expect to hear the voice of the Spirit if they have not yet been born of spirit? If you have yet to hear His voice then you have yet to be born. This I have also just tried to explain. You must be born again.

In a God from a mainstream religion? Nothing. If the Christian, Muslim or Jewish God came down from wherever he is and sat in front if me, I'd still headbutt him and tell him to go fuck himself.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

It's not possible - once you know and have tasted the joy of living water my friend there is impossible to deny Him. If one does deny God after He reveals Himself then the outcome is not good.

I'm an ex-Christian, but I'm not in denial. I just don't believe it's true. Now, I expect you'll say "but you must have not been a true Christian if you stopped believing." The truth is that I really did believe, I talked to God every night in my prayers and did my best to follow his commandments. He even revealed his power to me by what you might call a miracle. Maybe you could get me on the fact that I was never baptised in water, but I don't really consider it to be that significant.

I'm just one of those people who aren't stubborn about their beliefs. And so when I came across information skeptical of Christianity, I began to believe that Christianity wasn't true, because it made sense to me.

I remember the part in Hebrews where it says that apostates cannot return to Christianity. So you don't have to explain that one to me.

So my point being, I don't think it's impossible for a "True Christian" to stop believing in Christianity. And therefore it's not impossible for you to stop believing in Christianity. You're just so attached to your worldview that you don't know how to believe in anything else.

quote:I have tried to explain it. The answer is right in front of you. "A tree is known by it's fruit" - " a bad tree cannot bare good fruit." so it stands - a man who never loved now loves. It isn't a mystery but it stands right in front of everyone in full view.

There are good Christians, and there are bad Christians. There are good atheists and bad atheists. The same goes for any other belief system. Now, if you're talking about the affect Christianity has on people's lives, I would still say that there are those who do not find goodness in Christianity. And you can also point back to the people who practice Christianity to see the affects. I'll admit, there are some very nice Christians out there. But it isn't something specific to Christianity.

quote:If you knocked on the coffin of a dead man would he be able to hear you? No, he wouldn't - therefore, how can one expect to hear the voice of the Spirit if they have not yet been born of spirit? If you have yet to hear His voice then you have yet to be born. This I have also just tried to explain. You must be born again.

But with a "born again" experience, a person has biases towards seeing such divine inspiration. And I've learned that if you have biases towards an idea, it's very easy to contort what you see to fit your beliefs. So you may be seeing divine inspiration in the Bible where there is none. Normally a better approach is to go towards a subject with the least amount of biases as possible (or at least recognize your biases) in order to get the most accurate results. So... let me make an analogy with math. It's like you have a statement that is unproven:

n = 17

And you multiply zero on both sides of the equation.

n * 0 = 17 * 0

0 = 0 (true)

Therefore, n must equal 17! See, this is a lot like what bias does. It could be equal to 17, but we don't really know. We actually haven't learned anything by multiplying by zero (using bias). It just results in making an unnecessary and perhaps unwise assumption.

In case my point using the math didn't get across to you, here's one more example. Suppose you ask a member of a cult why they believe what they do when it's obviously wrong. They are a rather blunt cult, and respond: "You must be brainwashed by us in order to truly understand."

That is what you sound like you're actually saying to me.

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

God puts out stumbling blocks and walls. This is why Jesus spoke in parables. He explained it because if people clearly understood it they would turn and believe. I want you to understand that would negate the purpose of the "net" or the "strain" or the "threshing floor" We must be refined and purified before we understand any of it.

That process includes believing there is a God, then accepting that we are fallen, imperfect sinners far from the grace of God, then repentence or to stop living opposed to God and seeking forgiveness, then baptism by water and the holy Spirit becoming born again in spirit.



I was under the impression that God does not test your faith only the devil does...

Being omnipotent, all-knowing and able to transcend time would also suggest God has no need to test your faith... I'd go further and say, that your physical actions would neither prove nor negate your faith to God... He already knows, before your birth, that you will or won't be part of the church...

Jesus had that power as well... What makes you believe God would test your faith? and what reason do you give for physical ceremonies to be performed as a show of ones faith?… Why is it not enough to be born and die?

I don't think, no, in fact I KNOW that no reports could shake me to belief. Reports happe to other people they hold the weakness of perception,and more importantly of other peoples perception.

God would have to appear and talk to me personally ,but, even then, I don't think I would believe. I would defintely think that I had seen god ,but I would also believe it is nothing more than my mind doing what I wanted it to do.

I believe that people create god in there own minds, after all gods are reliant on the worshipper. Were god to appear to me I think that I would still hold onto a belief that I was greater than god. After all ,he is appearing to me ,and without my belief how can he affect me? My answer he can't.

Well ive babbled for a while but i'll part with this; I want something to believe in ,but I realize ther is nothing ,and no amount of self conviction on my part can change that. I can only come to the conclusion that i can become a god myself oneday if only i can reach a certain level.

Anyhoo ,good night and have a nice day.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

magic/psionics

How much do you know?

In Christianity?

God/Jesus would have to show up in my backyard for a tea party. They would have to make the tea with their mind. Completely prove it, beyond all doubt. And it would have to happen to me. I wouldn't believe anyone else.

But, that would completely invalidate Christianity, which is apparently faith-based. No proof.

quote:Originally posted by NavySEAL:

In Christianity?

God/Jesus would have to show up in my backyard for a tea party. They would have to make the tea with their mind. Completely prove it, beyond all doubt. And it would have to happen to me. I wouldn't believe anyone else.

But, that would completely invalidate Christianity, which is apparently faith-based. No proof.

agreed, don't forget the biscuits

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

magic/psionics

quote:Originally posted by Osiris89:

How much do you know?

Well, first off, I'm a member of Psipog, although I haven't visited in a while. I have read all of their articles though. I know it's something that's practiced by many groups, including but not limited to:

The modern "psionics" movement

New Age

Wicca

Voodoo

Spiritual Satanism

Scientology (reserved for OT III or IV and up)

Kabballah

govs. such as US and Cold War USSR

Enochian magic and its derivatives (many cults)

some Asian practices related to martial arts

Gnostics and the early Christian church

There are also many, many fictional accounts of psychic abilities, often related to real practices.

And, to some degree, most of the other religions in the world, who may use prayer or rituals which aren't really a central point of the religion.

Each of these different systems has different assumptions that it takes along with it as to the nature of the world. And this affects the nature of the psychic abilities and the way they learn to practice it. This is because psychic phenomena occur partly as a result of strong belief in something.

Ever remember the part of the Bible when Jesus' disciples ask why they can't cast out the demons? Jesus tells them they don't have enough "faith" and gives them the hyperbole that if they as much faith as a pea they could move a mountain. Then you have the part in the book of Acts where Peter can't heal the people of this one city because they don't have faith. Your expectations influence what will happen to you and whatever you have your attention on.

Another element that influences psychic stuff is emotion. The stronger the emotion, the more likely it is to cause some sort of effect. All those elaborate rituals for magic really just cause you to become more susceptible to belief and emotions... they don't do anything on their own. There seems to be more to it than just belief and emotion, such as the state of consciousness you're in and your body (remember acupuncture and its energy points?).

Another thing about psychic abilities is that if you practice them you can be able to use them without as much belief and emotion. I liken psychic powers to an involuntary muscle, such as the heart. You can't directly control them, but with enough training you can eventually develop subconscious cues that will trigger them to perform some action you want. Maybe it's the formation of neural pathways... I don't know. Some people seem to be born with certain abilities, so maybe it's that they develop these connections naturally during childhood development.

Along with the abilities themselves, you also have other strange phenomena sometimes involving the consciousness not being in the body, or at least extended outside of the body in some form or fashion. Ghosts, reincarnation, and out of body experiences is what I'm talking about here. I don't know much about these, so I'm still speculative about a lot of it.

Okay, I think I just related most of what I know about magic/psionics to you. Maybe that wasn't what you were wanting, but too bad. You gave me an excuse to flap my mouth, so I did.

I was going to make this thread. Only reversed.

I think it goes without saying that Christians believe their god is "all-knowing, omnipotent, and all-forgiving". Also, breaking the commandments is punishable by hell (if no repentance is done).

I think the second commandment says something along the lines of "Thou shalt not have any other gods before me".

About 30% of the world's population is Christian, that means that close to 70% of the world's population will go to Hell for either worshipping a "false" god (one that is not the Christian god), or not believing at all.

So much for being forgiving.

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

Okay what would have to happen to you, or would have to be discovered/reported upon to get you to stop believing in your belief? We must all have some point where we'd realize that we were wrong, and would change our views.

To get me to believe in Christianity, which is really the only other significant religion on totse, I would have to see several things. First of which would have to be some real clues suggesting that the earth may actually be a mere 6000 years old and not just a few circumstances under which modern science fails because of contamination or human error, which still only gives imperfect dates, not 6000 year dates. Wow there's way too much to go into, because there are a lot of other things I'd think before miracle even if I got an explanation as to how a man could be eaten by a whale and survive or a small boat could hold millions of species. If some remains of Abraham or whoever were found and discovered that they had lived well over 150 years, then that would help. If Jesus' remains were found and undiscribable human chemistry was found inside his body that significantly suggested tampering by some greater being it would help as well. However, there is still a long way to go.

The rich man and Lazarus: Nothing God can do could ever convince you, because you will always make up excuses to not believe. Thats why God doesn't prove himself.

quote:Originally posted by CPS:

I think it goes without saying that Christians believe their god is "all-knowing, omnipotent, and all-forgiving". Also, breaking the commandments is punishable by hell (if no repentance is done).

I think the second commandment says something along the lines of "Thou shalt not have any other gods before me".

About 30% of the world's population is Christian, that means that close to 70% of the world's population will go to Hell for either worshipping a "false" god (one that is not the Christian god), or not believing at all.

So much for being forgiving.

Ask and ye shall recieve. The Christian doctrine is all about forgive and forget... but you dont get forviveness if you arent sincere and repent.

They had their chance, and if not... they get another during the Tribulation.

Yo, Argon, while we're on the subject of Hell, I'd like to ask you: where in the Bible does it suggest our souls are eternal by nature?

Like, when God breathed life into Adam, and Adam sinned, God said "From dust you came and to dust you shall return". No speak of eternal damnation there. Why?

Hell is also refered to as an eternal fire. But, the Hebrew word used for 'eternal' was also the same Hebrew word used to describe the fires that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah, only the same word was translated to 'unquenchable'. Yet the fire that consumed the two cities did not make the cities burn forever, it merely burned until they were no more. Is it possible, that while Hell is an everlasting fire, it consumes and burns up the soul? That Hell will cease to be after all the unforgiven are consumed, like the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah?

There are many other things that hint to this. Jesus mentioned to his disciples that the unforgiven will be like 'ashes to their feet'. Furthermore, Hell either 1) has God's presence, meaning those sent to Hell are still with God or 2) is devoid of God, meaning he is not omnipotent.

We know that God must be omnipotent, and that you can't be completely alone to be damned for eternity if God is still with you. So the only possible explanation is that God is in the presence of what we know as "Hell", basically a metaphysical furnace where souls are burned up (there is 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' as their souls are consumed) and then...no more. The soul ceases to live, ceases to feel, ceases to exist.

It is also said that the penalty for sin is death, eternal death. Not eternal torture.

I believe the concept that 'eternal death' equals 'eternal torture' is a manipulation of the scripture used to incite fear in believers and non-believers. It makes more sense, in every aspect. A just God that doesn't allow sin into heaven, yet doesn't infinitely torture his transgressors for eternity for a finite amount of sin. What do you think?

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 01-21-2006).]

Interesting...

There are theories concerning the hell of the OT. That is, it was in the heart of the earth. Supposing this to be true, then indeed the Hebrew word is accurate. However, it could be used only to carry the idea that:

Hell=hot

Hot=pain

Therefore, Hell = pain

As for the lifespan of a soul... I can say that if the Bible is taken to be true, then the soul indeed has an infinite lifespan. But that is not to say that it cannot be destroyed.

You raise an interesting point about God's omnipotence. Assuming our definition of "omnipotence" is correct, then either God must be present with those that are in Hell, or he is not, and therefore cannot be omnipotent.

Can it not be supposed that we, as flawed people, not knowing the true nature of God, have an incomplete definition of "omnipotence"? That is, our current definition includes that God is present everywhere at all times. But if he is omnipotent, he can choose not to be everywhere and exclude his presence from a certain place. But that is illogical... how can an omnipotent being choose not to be at a place and still retain omnipotence?

It is illogical. God does not rely completely on logic. Hisworks are logical, but that is not to say that his inner thoughts are not based on a supreme logic, no?

That said, we do not know everything about God, lest we be gods ourselves. Therefore it only serves for convenience to label God as omnipotent. It is indeed shorter than saying "God is everywhere, all powerful, and all knowledgible. This all present, all knowing, all powerful Supreme Being blah blah blah..."

I dont think that our definition of omnipotence can possibly limit God's powers. Remember now, our definition was contrived on human logic. Its somewhat like processors of a computer. I program PIC microcontrollers for a living. Suppose that the instruction set for this chip is small (and indeed it is). Compare that to the Intel x86 processor that has many more instructions. Assuming that x86 has all of the instructions from the PIC, I can write programs for the PIC that are directly portable to the x86. However, that program cannot possibly equal the complexity and power of the Intel instruction set.

We as humans cannot think in the same language as God. We can know some of how he thinks, but we simply cannot comprehend it all.

Back to the death of a soul: personally, I beleive in a literal Hell... at least as a place for holding... a prison if you will. The Bible says this is the place for unbelievers until the Day of Judgement. These people will be judged "each according to his works". Hitler will get more punishment than, lets say, kind Bob down the street. These people will be punished in the Lake of Fire.

Whether or not this lake of fire will contain these souls for the rest of eternity or if they will cease to exist... I cannot say. Perhaps there are other dimensions to the reality that God knows that he does not have to be omnipresent in? Perhaps then he shall store them there?

So what Im saying in a nutshell is that our definition of "omnipotence" may well be incomplete. Thus, people can burn for eternity and God still need not be present.

I wont say you are wrong, as I do not have the answer. But as far as I have read and understood, God demands perfection. He cannot allow imperfection to coexist with him... sin.

How can you possibly atone for saying "Fuck you, God"? How many good works must you do? 10? 10 million? The only possible atonement for this is your life. Jesus paid for those lives of whom will ask of Him. Sin is paid for the believer. However the unsaved has not this priveledge.

The wages of sin is death. We both agree. Death in this case is searation from God. (again with the omnipotence!) Truth is, we cannot work our way to heaven. Sin must be punished. If the soul is indeed eternal (read down for my take on eternity), ad we canno work our way to heaven, then soul, then, cannot enter heaven... ever. There must also then be punishment for sin.

The soul of the unbeliever is then excluded for eternity. At some point then they are punished for their sin.

Let us suppose at this point their pun punishment is for some finite time. If they cannot enter heaven, where else is there to go? Jesus says they will burn in the lake of fire for eternity. Whether or not eternity is a finite time in God's perspective I cannot possibly speculate.

That is, we cannot comprehend the notion of time without time. We cant comprehend a watch without hands. Again with sets. Peraps God also has a watch of some supreme measurement of time? One would think it posible. An angel could count the steps he takes in the amount of time for, lets say, a coconut to fall from a tree. At some point, time can be made up frm mundane occurances. However, I cannot speculate on that. Does God have a definite time for which eternity ends? I can answer that yet.

Back to hell: how shall the soul who snubs God pay for his sin? He cant do it by works (My pastor has the quip: If a man could work his way to heaven, he'd be so proud God would have to kick him out anyway!).

His life is required. His physical body is of no concern to God... He has resurrected people before. His soul is the payment. Now, for all intents and purposes, these people will burn in hell for eternity. Straight from Jesus' mouth. If this is not true, Hes a liar and we need not believe a liar. If however an eternity in Gods eyes is some googol of years, I cant say with any certainty.





Anyway thats my take. I trust you enjoyed. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Hmmm... a few things.

First, you said Jesus said the lost would burn in hell for eternity. I don't see where he says they'd burn for eternity. He said they would cry out, there would be the gnaching of teeth, but he refers to Hell as an 'everlasting fire'(Matt. 25:41) and a 'furnace of fire'(Matt. 13:42).

And the verse I feel defines the purpose of Hell the most:

"Do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28)

I don't think you can get much more blunt than that.

Furthermore, you pointed out that Hell would be seperation from God. I agree. Now let me beckon the question: Is existence possible without God? What exists apart from God now? What has ever existed apart from God? Even when Lucifer was cast out of heaven, he was not apart from God (as he conversed with him all throughout the Bible). The very essence of life, the very existence of our souls, the origin of humanity, are in the breath of God. How can we still think, feel regret, sorrow, or pain? How do we exist without God?

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 01-21-2006).]

Interesting question. But keep in mind that Satan is not separate from God as of yet. But even those who die now, its the same as if they are immediately at the judgement. (Loss of sense of time).

Can we exist without God? Very good question.... that I cannot answer.

I believe you will find the most accurate meaning of Jesus' words if you use the KJV. That sounds a little too modern to be KJV and Im dead tired at the moment and Bibless.

Matthew 10:28 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:28 (New King James Version)

New King James Version (NKJV)

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Two more versions, same message. The soul is most definitely destructible, and God is the only one who can do so.

*yawn* Sleepy time.

quote:Originally posted by NavySEAL:

In Christianity?

Completely prove it, beyond all doubt. And it would have to happen to me. I wouldn't believe anyone else.

But, that would completely invalidate Christianity, which is apparently faith-based. No proof.

Beware the potent arguement from lack of heat vision (Rehashed arguement of divine hiddeness)

1. God is omniscient and omnipotent

2. God desires that I worship him

3. I would worship god if he granted me heat vision.

4. An omniscient god would be aware that I would worship him if I he granted me heat vision.

5. An omnipotent god would be able to grant me heat vision.

6. I have not been granted heat vision.

7. God does not exist.

Now spout some BS about free-will

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Interesting...

There are theories concerning the hell of the OT. That is, it was in the heart of the earth. Supposing this to be true, then indeed the Hebrew word is accurate. However, it could be used only to carry the idea that:

Hell=hot

Hot=pain

Therefore, Hell = pain

Except that Sheol was already described in the Old Testament as a place of dust and darkness. It could be considered a metaphorical extention of the grave. Much like the Sumerian/Babylonian afterlife.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

You raise an interesting point about God's omnipotence. Assuming our definition of "omnipotence" is correct, then either God must be present with those that are in Hell, or he is not, and therefore cannot be omnipotent.

Being everywhere is omnipresence... being all powerful is omnipotence. You can be omnipotent without being omnipresent, and you can be omnipresent without being omnipotent. And not all Christians believe that God is omnipresent.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Back to the death of a soul: personally, I beleive in a literal Hell... at least as a place for holding... a prison if you will. The Bible says this is the place for unbelievers until the Day of Judgement. These people will be judged "each according to his works". Hitler will get more punishment than, lets say, kind Bob down the street. These people will be punished in the Lake of Fire.

God's incredible desire to punish people is beyond me, I'll admit that.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

I wont say you are wrong, as I do not have the answer. But as far as I have read and understood, God demands perfection. He cannot allow imperfection to coexist with him... sin.

No, God just gets his kicks from torturing people who disobey him (i.e. "sinners"). If he really wanted to, he could create a paradise for all relatively good non-Christians to go to for all eternity.

Im not sure. But if I /did/ start to believe, my goal would then be to find a way to kill god. Would be fun.

Mildly offtopic tangent stuff below:

For those totseans who are oldschool gamingly inclined, I recommend playing Shin Megami Tensei 1 and 2. They are super famicom (super nintendo) games about wars between heaven and hell, starting in around about this era, Tokyo. The player gets to choose their side - law (god, or should I say YHVH?), chaos (lucifer), or neutral. Theyre rpgs, dungeon crawlers, and play half in top-down view, half in grid based 3d view. Unofficial translations have been made by Aeon Genesis http://agtp.romhack.net/

Coolies. The SNES always was my favorite system... For those who don't know a good place to get the ROM, go to the Planet Emulation website. The versions of the games you want to get have [T+Eng1.00_AGTP] next to them.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

In a God from a mainstream religion? Nothing. If the Christian, Muslim or Jewish God came down from wherever he is and sat in front if me, I'd still headbutt him and tell him to go fuck himself.

Someday you will grow up, I am sure of it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Someday you will grow up, I am sure of it.

If you mean some day I will lose my badass attitude, you are wrong.

You on the other hand, will never reach to point of clear human thinking. Religious people cannot think, feel or live.