Ok well, before I ask my question let me give a background bit of information: In London on Oxford Street (THE street with all the highstreet, big name stores), there is a guy who stands around with a backpack and a megaphone and a bible, preaching the word of God. (I'm headed up town tomorrow and will try and get a photo of him if he's there) Now he tells me I'm going to hell because I don't believe in God, and that because I don't believe in God I am a wicked, wicked person. But I say, "Hang on there mate, I DO live a good life. I treat others as I would like to be treated, I "turn the other cheek", I do not cheat my fellow man" and so on and so forth. But no, he tells me that I can't be a good person because I don't believe in God, and that I'm going to be punished in Hell forever.

So this is my question: Is it possible to live a "good life" by Christians standards, even if one does not believe in God? Is it so wrong for people to try and do their best for others but NOT follow the word of the lord? Am I a wicked person?

Furthermore, what about the Christians who discriminate on people because of their gender, race or sexual orientation? What about the Christians who FORCE the word of God onto people who were quite content previously; ARE THESE GOOD PEOPLE? Do these people deserve more recognition for being good than someone who is not a follower of God, yet helps their fellow man and genuinely tries to make the world a better place?

Cheers

N.B - I realise the man in Oxford Street does not represent all Christians, I am just using him to illustrate my point. He IS a right wanker though...

I don't think your a wicked person at all. I think your a lot more noble than Christians who, in the fear of damnation, decide to do their fellow mankind good. Even then barely any of them give two fucks for anyone outside themselves and their rings of friends. My friends seemed to be convinced that I must be saved from hell so I get a little half-baked religious chat ( you might know the kind, the usual "We can't come from nothing") followed by I'm dumb for not accepting "Jesus's love". Goddamn (is that word acceptable for use by an atheist http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif) ) is actually having an imagination and empathy hard in this time.

If you ask me you could go through life godless and it wouldn't matter. I believe that the only thing that matters at the end of the day is your goodness of heart. God is just a means to get to goodness of heart.

yeah this sortof stuff really annoys me. I mean if god is like that, would you really even want to go to heaven? I mean do we need a religion to justify doing good on earth? I cant stomach the fact that god would reject people from heaven because they are brought up jewish, muslim, etc... I feel religion does have some good assets to it, but it has a lot of people doing good just to get into heaven.

The whole "god will burn you if you don't believe in him even if you're a saint" shit stemmed from corrupt churches trying to make people conform...fear tactics. First off I don't even believe in god as a person with an identity that is a "he" or a "she" with skin of a certain color....I prefer to think of "god" just as a infinite source of energy and intelligence. Religion should kill fear and guilt, not produce it.

Edited for spelling.

[This message has been edited by Villrux (edited 12-13-2005).]

^^I agree, that is from corrupt churches. I am quite religious and such, but I don't think that people who don't believe in God will necessarily go to Hell. You can be a good person and not believe in God. My views go a little deeper than that, but I've already explained them before and don't feel like doing it again.

I think the idea of Hell is manipulated. Hell is described as an eternal fire yadda yadda yadda. However, nowhere does it say that the human soul is eternal by nature. Like when God made the first man, he breathed the 'breath of life' into him (creation of a soul). Man sinned and God told him it was from dust he came, and to dust he will return.

"Eternal death" is not "eternal torture". It is simply the destruction of your soul. Hell is the place where this destruction takes place, where you cease to be forever. Gone.

And heaven is where you keep living, without sinful desires. Completely at peace.

On that note, yes, you can be a good person and still be sent to Hell. Because, though your actions may be good, though you may have well intent, you still have the inherent human greed which we all carry. Selfishness is our nature, the nature of our bodies, minds, and souls. When one is 'saved', it is a realization. The acceptance that your nature is selfishness, that this nature is destructive (and ultimately leads to death), and that the selfless nature of God is the only way to ensure the eternal life of the soul.

So when one is saved, the sinful nature of their soul is removed; however, the sinful nature of the body and mind remains. It creates a conflict, and a solution. When a man has a soul with a sinful nature, as well as body and mind, he is lost. He is lost because he knows there is a right and wrong, but he does not know by what standards to define it. When a man has a 'reborn' soul, it acts as a counterpart to the sinful mind and body. The soul knows what sin is. There is still debate in the man's mind, in his conscience, but it isn't as grey as it once was. Instead of rights and wrongs being solely based on perception, they are based on truth.

/rant about Christian Philosophy

I dont believe in christian god myself, but I do know enough of chruch history to tell you, that the guy was somewhat correct... he just left out the good part.

What church taught in medieval ages -made famous by dante- was the 9 layer hell. The first layer was for noble pagans (such as yourself in this case). The first layer wasn't hell in the sense of pain and torture, it was simply a place of eternal anxiety and longing for more.

So, yeah, ya'll go to hell by that viewpoint, but it aint that bad http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)