If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, why does god need to test peoples faith?

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, is it gods plan for some people go to hell?

[This message has been edited by 3leet_life (edited 01-24-2006).]

mmhm.

quote:Originally posted by General Mills:

mmhm.

I see...

quote:Originally posted by 3leet_life:

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, why does god need to test peoples faith?

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, is it gods plan for some people go to hell?



I think that's called Calvinism.

quote:Originally posted by Sgt. Lag:

I think that's called Calvinism.

"The theological system of John Calvin and his followers emphasizing omnipotence of God and salvation by grace alone."

Is that meaning that god doesn't have a plan for everyone but only the devout few?

quote:Originally posted by 3leet_life:

"The theological system of John Calvin and his followers emphasizing omnipotence of God and salvation by grace alone."

Is that meaning that god doesn't have a plan for everyone but only the devout few?

Calvinism stresses the complete ruin of man's ethical nature against a backdrop of the sovereign grace of God in salvation. It teaches that people are utterly unable to follow God or escape their condemnation before him and that only by drastic divine intervention in which God must overrule their unwilling hearts can people be turned from rebellion to willing obedience.

Wikipedia.org

That's in addition to your nobody can change their fate outlook (kind of), I believe.

I checked out wikipedia but it was too damn long and i'm too damn lazy http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Thanks for the comments.

quote:Originally posted by 3leet_life:

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, why does god need to test peoples faith?

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, is it gods plan for some people go to hell?



God has knowledge of all we will do. He knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. We must accept that as truth (for now), for we cannot test it.

We cannot know what is future for us. Free will is conserved. All people make a choice at some point in their lives that influence where they spend eternity.

Therefore, men are free to choose heaven or hell, and God retains knowledge of all choices .

Well said.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

God has knowledge of all we will do. He knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. We must accept that as truth (for now), for we cannot test it.

We cannot know what is future for us. Free will is conserved. All people make a choice at some point in their lives that influence where they spend eternity.

Therefore, men are free to choose heaven or hell, and God retains knowledge of all choices .



What about all the stillborn babies or kids that never reach the mental state to process the concept of right and wrong?

While were on the topic what plan did god have for them? Did their parents not send the 700 club check?

quote:Originally posted by 3leet_life:

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, why does god need to test peoples faith?

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, is it gods plan for some people go to hell?



First of all, it isn't an 'if',

Secondly, Without faith it is impossible to please God. (Hebrews 11:6)

Thirdly, It isn't God's WILL for ANYONE to go to Hell. His WILL is in His Word, BUT He's given us free will. This dates back to the Garden. The ability to CHOOSE.

You choose to believe what is revealed to your natural sense.. What you feel, what you see.. Or believe what isn't revealed to your sense, but is made manifested in the visible realm.

Example: The wind blows, a tree.. insomuch the tree tilts to the ground. You say, "Hey you see that wind." Someone replies, "No, But I see that tree." What you're REALLY seeing are the effects of what isn't seen.

Question: You have a child, the age of 5. You tell your child. "Son, don't go to the road." Your child goes to the road, gets ran over, was that your will? Absolutely not! You WARNED your child because you KNEW what COULD happen and what WOULD happen if they CHOSE not to listen.

You can't access what God has for your without BELIEVING God's there.. and that God isn't a liar and can't lie. God's Will is written through out His Word, for His peculiar people. His plans are to prosper us (His peculiar people).. Who will STEP OUT IN FAITH, (Standing on what GOD SAID , reguardless of how they feel, or what things LOOK like) trusting God to do what He said He would and will do. It's as simple as BELIEVING GOD.

Smith Wigglesworth always said, "Only Believe." He also said, "There is nothing impossible with God. All the impossibility is with us when we measure God by the limitations of our unbelief."

It's so simple.. and you all seem to want to make it so much more complex than it is. God's made it fool proof!! ONLY BELIEVE!

If you don't have faith In God, if you don't have the God kind of Faith,(Hebrews 11:1-3) If you don't believe God.. THen you're never Going to do what God's called you to do because you don't BELIEVE. God isn't limited.. He works with what you give Him to work with. God can do anything.. and He'll do anything, you believe He'll do (that is in line with HIS will, and you don't know His Will unless you read His word. God doesn't change).

Ah, I could go on and on and on and on about this.. But it still comes down to what YOU believe.

I love you all, In Christ.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 01-24-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

God has knowledge of all we will do. He knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. We must accept that as truth (for now), for we cannot test it. O RLY? Why am I going to accept your (heathen) religion, if you've got squat for proof?

We cannot know what is future for us. Free will is conserved. All people make a choice at some point in their lives that influence where they spend eternity. We can't know it, but God already knows it? If God already knows what I'm going to do, there is only one way I'm going to do things. Therefore, my options are limited to what God has predicted for me.

Therefore, men are free to choose heaven or hell, and God retains knowledge of all choices .If he knows what we're going to choose, then why wait for us to live our lives? He could just send us all immediately to heaven/hell and it wouldn't make a difference.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

<that stuff between my toes>

Even if God was real, I wouldn't worship him because he sucks at what he does.

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

see, God also gave us, Free will...

why?

because if he made us all love him, it wouldn't be true love..

True love, is free love

quote:O RLY? Why am I going to accept your (heathen) religion, if you've got squat for proof?

Its an axiom, you fucking twat.

quote:We can't know it, but God already knows it? If God already knows what I'm going to do, there is only one way I'm going to do things. Therefore, my options are limited to what God has predicted for me.

If you cannot know it to be true, you cannot accept it as fact. Therefore it doesnt matter whether or not God knows the future.

quote:If he knows what we're going to choose, then why wait for us to live our lives? He could just send us all immediately to heaven/hell and it wouldn't make a difference.

More gasoline to throw on your fire.

quote:Originally posted by yoda_me07:



see, God also gave us, Free will...

why?

because if he made us all love him, it wouldn't be true love..

True love, is free love

Well said, Yoda.

It reminds me of the 'marriage' story.



Would you enjoy being married to someone you love, but they never take the time to seek your face, and your heart. What you feel, what you want? They're too caught up in what they want, they say they want you, but their heart is elsewhere. They never ask you anything about yourself. They never take the time to know anything about you.

(This makes me sad.) But yeah, God's had a people who've claimed to love him for several years. 'Religious' people. People who say they love God, but never take the time to know what GOD wants. Can you image how lonely God's felt? If I can help it, He'll never feel like that from me. I will make time for Him daily, regardless. It's a relationship. There has to be communication, and communication isn't one person talking while the other listens. It's both talking, and both listening.



I'm sorry, That seems a little way off, but it's typed now.

I'm blessed, and it can't be changed.

quote:Originally posted by Inti:

Even if God was real, I wouldn't worship him because he sucks at what he does.

I don't really care. Why would i worship a god whos chosen people are the jews when im not jewish?

quote:Originally posted by 3leet_life:

I don't really care. Why would i worship a god whos chosen people are the jews when im not jewish?

So because he doesnt treat you special you dont like him? What a baby.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

So because he doesnt treat you special you dont like him? What a baby.

Very bold!

Ahem. However, the NT says, "There is neither male nor female, greek nor Jew, in Christ." If you're in Christ, you're of ONE body. You don't identify with your sex, or background, you identify with Christ's death burial and resurrection. Paul, who wrote half of the NT under the Inspiriation of the Holy Ghost, made this clear time and time again. He rebuked Peter dealing with this!! READ THE BIBLE!!

My goodness, Even if you don't believe it, you can read it, because asking questions as such, and saying things as you have. You make yourself look stupid.

quote:Originally posted by Argonplasma2000:

God has knowledge of all we will do. He knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. We must accept that as truth (for now), for we cannot test it.

The only thing that exists is your mind. Everything you sense, experience, and think is an illusion. Unfortunately, because this is untestable, you must accept it as true.

quote:We cannot know what is future for us. Free will is conserved. All people make a choice at some point in their lives that influence where they spend eternity.

If God has knowledge of the future, then

-knowledge of the state of the future exists

-the future is predetermined

-free will is an illusion

quote:Therefore, men are free to choose heaven or hell, and God retains knowledge of all choices .

That would be like a computer. If we have enough information about the code, we can predict what the computer will choose before it chooses. However, even though a computer can choose, it does not have free will.

The ability to choose != free will

quote:Originally posted by 3leet_life:

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, why does god need to test peoples faith?

Originally posted by HellzShellz:

First of all, it isn't an 'if',

Yes, it is an "if." You should know this, because you take the Bible on faith.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Secondly, Without faith it is impossible to please God.

And in order to find out what to have faith in, you first have to use reason. Otherwise you risk having faith in the wrong belief. And what good is faith in lies?

quote:Thirdly, It isn't God's WILL for ANYONE to go to Hell. His WILL is in His Word, BUT He's given us free will. This dates back to the Garden. The ability to CHOOSE.

Notice my point above about computers. The ability to choose does not equal free will. And since you have already agreed that all time is predetermined, this further goes against your idea that humans have free will.

quote: Yes, it is an "if." You should know this, because you take the Bible on faith

As you should know, Faith percieves as real fact what isn't revealed to the senses. If I questioned my Faith I wouldn't be in faith.

quote:And in order to find out what to have faith in, you first have to use reason. Otherwise you risk having faith in the wrong belief. And what good is faith in lies?

Faith is faith. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for and the EVIDENCE of things not seen (revealed to the natural senses). Hebrews 11:1-3. Hope is earnest expectation. Ever heard the saying, which is taken from the bible, "We walk by FAITH, not by sight"? Faith isn't moved by what's SEEN or by what's FELT, faith STANDS FIRM on what it BELIEVE (percieves as Real Fact). Since faith percieves as REAL FACT, it doesn't DOUBT. Reason? You want truth read God's word, so you can DISCERN, between what's of God and what isn't. The WAR is in the mind. I urge everyone to read the Book by Joyce Meyers, ' The Battlefield of the Mind'. This is where the difference between soul and spirit comes in. If you're saved, who you were is dead because of sin, but you're made alive unto God through the Spirit. You're no longer spiritually dead.

Paul said, "Becareful lest your soul perish." You don't lose your salvation, however if you're not careful you'll never increase in faith because instead of RENEWING your mind with the Word of God, you'll fall captive, by your own will, to everything the Devil whispers in your ear. Before you were born again, it was forcefully, after being born again, you have to GIVE UP that authority. Romans 8: and Mark 4:. Your spirit can be saved, and your Mind perish.

Paul said, 2 Corinthians 10:4-6 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

Our example of This, is by Christ, In Matthew 4: when he was Tempted of the Devil.



quote: Notice my point above about computers. The ability to choose does not equal free will. And since you have already agreed that all time is predetermined, this further goes against your idea that humans have free will.

Notice, I don't put my FAITH in your opinion. You had no point. Free will, means you do have the ability to choose right and wrong, Good and evil. YOUR will is selfish and goes against God's will, which is selfless and love. Yes, God knows everything that's going to happen before it happens, It's in His will. God is longsuffering willing that none should perish but all should come to repentance. That His will too. For God so loved the World. It's your decision. He's a gentleman He isn't going to FORCE you to do anything you don't want to do. God knows you, He knows your heart, He knows your will, how it is evil, and how it leads to destruction and death, it didn't keep Him from loving you, and giving you a fool-proof option to follow Him, and be with Him. The decision is IN FACT yours. He didn't choose FOR YOU, YOU choose FOR YOU.

Now, When I took on the LIFE OF CHRIST, and gave up my life in exchange for Chirts's, I lost my will. and sought God's. At times I do mess up, I'm not perfect, and I won't be until Christ returns, but God forgives me. 1 John 1:9

I'm blessed and it CAN'T BE CHANGED!

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Yes, it is an "if." You should know this, because you take the Bible on faith.

Originally posted by HellzShellz:

As you should know, Faith percieves as real fact what isn't revealed to the senses. If I questioned my Faith I wouldn't be in faith.

You have just given me two definitions of faith. The first is that of faith based on reason. For example, I have faith that this chair will continue to hold me up and not collapse, because it has held me up many times before and shows no signs of collapsing or vaporizing. The second definition you gave is that of blind faith, which accepts certain things as true no matter how impossible or stupid they seem.

And yet, if you realize you have been believing blindly, you no longer have completely blind faith. It's much like how a person cannot be delusional if they know they're delusional. Now instead of blind faith, you acknowledge that you don't know for certain, but are accepting it because you have some reason to.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

And in order to find out what to have faith in, you first have to use reason. Otherwise you risk having faith in the wrong belief. And what good is faith in lies?

Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Faith is faith.

...

Our example of This, is by Christ, In Matthew 4: when he was Tempted of the Devil.

You have described faith based on reason. Which is just fine. But, as I already said, if you do not think faith cannot be question, you are confusing two different kinds of faith.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Thirdly, It isn't God's WILL for ANYONE to go to Hell. His WILL is in His Word, BUT He's given us free will. This dates back to the Garden. The ability to CHOOSE.

Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Notice my point above about computers. The ability to choose does not equal free will. And since you have already agreed that all time is predetermined, this further goes against your idea that humans have free will.

Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Notice, I don't put my FAITH in your opinion. You had no point. Free will, means you do have the ability to choose right and wrong, Good and evil.

The issue being discussed has to do with predetermination. If we are like computers and are predetermined to choose one thing or the other based on our "code" then we have been set up to go to heaven or hell, whether our choices are about morality or daily life or candy or whatever. Your point about your definition of free will is moot.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

The issue being discussed has to do with predetermination. If we are like computers and are predetermined to choose one thing or the other based on our "code" then we have been set up to go to heaven or hell, whether our choices are about morality or daily life or candy or whatever. Your point about your definition of free will is moot.

You know what.. No!!.. I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm telling you what the Word of God says, that I believe and stand on. GOD DOES'T CHOOSE FOR YOU. This isn't about what your mind understands of man..

Psalm 14:1 & 53:1

The fool has said in his heart,“There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good



Faith isn't what I define, Faith is what God defines.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible

Understand, I see where you come from, because I've been there, and I see the truth of It by and through the Word of God. I could ask meaningless questions that make sense to me and those like me, or I can get past that and seek GOD and what GOD'S will is.

I love you, brother, sister..whichever you are..

1 Corinthians 3:18-20

Let no person deceive himself. If anyone among you supposes that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool [let him discard his worldly discernment and recognize himself as dull, stupid, and foolish, without true learning and scholarship], that he may become [really] wise For this world's wisdom is foolishness (absurdity and stupidity) with God, for it is written, He lays hold of the wise in their [own] craftiness;And again, The Lord knows the thoughts and reasonings of the [humanly] wise and recognizes how futile they are.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 01-24-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

You know what.. No!!.. I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm telling you what the Word of God says, that I believe and stand on. GOD DOES'T CHOOSE FOR YOU. This isn't about what your mind understands of man..

I think we can both agree that words can have multiple definitions. If you say that free will is the ability to choose between right and wrong, then I will agree that we have that sort of free will. However, that does not mean our choices aren't predetermined.

Personally, I do not think it is possible to tell whether or not our choices are predetermined. However, related concepts such as the existence of the future would have to correlate with whether our actions are predetermined.

quote:Faith isn't what I define, Faith is what God defines.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible

Okay...

quote:Understand, I see where you come from, because I've been there, and I see the truth of It by and through the Word of God. I could ask meaningless questions that make sense to me and those like me, or I can get past that and seek GOD and what GOD'S will is.

I love you, brother, sister..whichever you are..

And I'm just here to discuss philosophical issues. Exercising my brain. And trying to satisfy my ego. But it's nice to know you.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

i've thought about that, see u have fate but u still have a free will and you are able to choose what you do.

Yes, some people were born stupid, and in different religions, but i guess god hates them >_>

quote:The only thing that exists is your mind. Everything you sense, experience, and think is an illusion. Unfortunately, because this is untestable, you must accept it as true.

Its called an "axiom". Read my second post.

quote:If God has knowledge of the future, then

-knowledge of the state of the future exists

-the future is predetermined

-free will is an illusion

1. Knowledge of all causal data exists, but it is inaccessible to humans. If we cannot gather it, we cannot definitively prove its existence. We can theorize all we wish, but it doesnt spontaneously form proof.

If we cannot know something to be true, we must either accept it a completely false, or accept it as false with a possiblility of being true after some data has been recieved.

Thus, if we cannot prove there is knowledge of future events, we cannot be certain there exists any at all. If we cannot prove its existence, we must declare that it does not exist, for the time being. Therefore, free will exists and, if we were to use the axiom, God also retains knowledge of causal data.

2. What God knows has no effect on what you do. You cannot see, feel, hear, taste, or smell God, therefore you cannot prove his existence. If one cannot prove His existence, one must conceed (SP?) that he does not exist, or ,by special case, believe he exists.

Free will and axial omnipotence are conserved, regardless.

quote:That would be like a computer. If we have enough information about the code, we can predict what the computer will choose before it chooses. However, even though a computer can choose, it does not have free will.

The ability to choose != free will

If we have the code, we can predict its outcomes. Except you forget we cannot get the "code". Logically, then, we cannot predict the outcomes.

You also forget of cmputer code that exists today that learns. There is data that is added to the code that you cannot possibly extract from the original or the present code.

Not to mention that there are programs that receive real randomness to reach an outcome that cannot possibly be predicted using code analysis, registry monitoring, or quantum data pooling.









Anyone else wanna get served?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



I'm blessed and it CAN'T BE CHANGED!

Spelling correction:

You are deluded, and it can't be changed. Unless, you wake up from your meme.

Edit: Screw it. I'm tired and not thinking straight, and debating like this will get me nowhere. I'll respond later.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 01-25-2006).]

Im feeling shitty atm, too.

Alright... I was procrastinating on responding, but now I have to procrastinate on doing something else, so I'm going to do this instead.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Its called an "axiom". Read my second post.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to tell me here. Are you saying that it's just something you aren't trying to prove, but are using it as the basis for your other arguments? If so, then I'll concede your point. However, if you're saying that it's somehow self-evident, then you have to be able to defend your statement by more than just calling it an axiom.

I guessed that your axiom was the following: if something cannot be tested, it must be accepted as truth. And I tried to show the absurdity of your axiom by applying it to solipsism, which in one sense is the idea that all of reality is just a part of your mind.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

We cannot know what is future for us. Free will is conserved. All people make a choice at some point in their lives that influence where they spend eternity.

Originally posted by Clarphimous:

If God has knowledge of the future, then

-knowledge of the state of the future exists

-the future is predetermined

-free will is an illusion

Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

1. Knowledge of all causal data exists, but it is inaccessible to humans. If we cannot gather it, we cannot definitively prove its existence. We can theorize all we wish, but it doesnt spontaneously form proof.

If we cannot know something to be true, we must either accept it a completely false, or accept it as false with a possiblility of being true after some data has been recieved.

Thus, if we cannot prove there is knowledge of future events, we cannot be certain there exists any at all. If we cannot prove its existence, we must declare that it does not exist, for the time being. Therefore, free will exists and, if we were to use the axiom, God also retains knowledge of causal data.

2. What God knows has no effect on what you do. You cannot see, feel, hear, taste, or smell God, therefore you cannot prove his existence. If one cannot prove His existence, one must conceed (SP?) that he does not exist, or ,by special case, believe he exists.

Free will and axial omnipotence are conserved, regardless.

The flaw in your response is that you assume that the knowledge of humans determines whether they have free will or are predetermined to do something. Rather, I say it would be the nature of the universe itself that determines this. In order to have a true sort of "free will" perhaps based on quantum mechanics, the future would either have to be non-existent (merely a concept of the human mind), or a conglomeration of all possible future states which collapse into lesser and lesser possibilities as the present approaches it, until that point does become the present and then the past.

However, if God knows which particular future state is going to occur, and not just all the possibilities, then there must be information as to which one will be selected. But if that information exists, then the quantum uncertainty is broken down, and free will ceases to function.

I'm basing this heavily on what I know of quantum information theories, so if it doesn't make any sense to you, that's why.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Therefore, men are free to choose heaven or hell, and God retains knowledge of all choices .

Originally posted by Clarphimous:

That would be like a computer. If we have enough information about the code, we can predict what the computer will choose before it chooses. However, even though a computer can choose, it does not have free will.

The ability to choose != free will

Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

If we have the code, we can predict its outcomes. Except you forget we cannot get the "code". Logically, then, we cannot predict the outcomes.

But God could have our code, couldn't he? So my example could still work. I'm not saying it necessarily is the case, but it certainly makes sense to me if God already knows what we're going to do.

quote:You also forget of cmputer code that exists today that learns. There is data that is added to the code that you cannot possibly extract from the original or the present code.

However, these programs are still completely predictable so long as you know all the input they are given.

quote:Not to mention that there are programs that receive real randomness to reach an outcome that cannot possibly be predicted using code analysis, registry monitoring, or quantum data pooling.

Still, that would just make the program's actions a product of its environment. If it receives the same data twice from the same state, it'll do the same thing each time. This isn't exactly what I'd call "free will."

quote:Originally posted by yoda_me07:



see, God also gave us, Free will...

why?

because if he made us all love him, it wouldn't be true love..

True love, is free love

Yes,but is it really given freely? How many parents tell their children that if they don't truly show their love to them that they will throw them in a burning lake for all enternity?

Also on the whole God's plan question. If everything is part of God's plan then the guy that kidnapps your child and then rapes and murders them is only playing a part in God's plan, and people like Hitler & Saddam were only doing what God had planned for them. If this is truly the case then we don't have free will as this is only a game or play of sorts, and we are only actors.



[This message has been edited by Nemisis (edited 01-27-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by yoda_me07:



see, God also gave us, Free will...

why?

because if he made us all love him, it wouldn't be true love..

True love, is free love

Burn in hell for all eternity or love god. Wow! How is it even possible that you can call that true free love?

quote:Originally posted by 3leet_life:

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, why does god need to test peoples faith?

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, is it gods plan for some people go to hell?





All these assumptions are false.

God has no needs, wants nothing from us, and hell is a myth.

Even Pope John Paul II admitted that last one (in a private audience in the vatican in 1999).

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

God has knowledge of all we will do. He knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. We must accept that as truth (for now), for we cannot test it.

We cannot know what is future for us. Free will is conserved. All people make a choice at some point in their lives that influence where they spend eternity.

Therefore, men are free to choose heaven or hell, and God retains knowledge of all choices .

When following your opinion, humans arn't free at all because God knows exactly what we will do at any given time, we don't choose it, we just follow his plan and there is no way of doint something different because he knows everything. Think about that.

you"re assuming he has an exact path set. your thinking on a small level. given that he's all knowing one could assume every action that you can take has been accounted for and leads into a seperate plan that will lead into the even bigger one.

[This message has been edited by pants (edited 02-04-2006).]

So God wants me to be an atheist? He's going to throw me into hell for all eternity because it's his will. Well I hear it's nice and hot this time of year, I could use the time to top up my tan http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=of13yc

?

quote:Originally posted by 3leet_life:

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, why does god need to test peoples faith?

For your benefit.

If all time is predetermined and god has a plan for everyone, is it gods plan for some people go to hell?



The plan is for your salvation and He wishes that no one perishes but that all come to repentence. Does He know what your choice will be? Yes. But you don't what it will be until you've actively made the choice.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

God doesn't change

So how come he suddenly changed his mind about slavery? Women? etc etc

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I'm blessed, and it can't be changed.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I'm blessed and it CAN'T BE CHANGED!

Why do you keep saying this over and over again? How do you know you have been blessed? Talking out of your ass doesn't mean you have been blessed.

Because she follows the Lord... If you don't understand what it means, means that you don't follow the Lord because you don't know Him; you just know of Him. You could have that kind of deep, fulfilling relationship if so desired... As it is, 'you have not, because you ask not.'

Let my sister go.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Because she follows the Lord... If you don't understand what it means, means that you don't follow the Lord because you don't know Him; you just know of Him. You could have that kind of deep, fulfilling relationship if so desired... As it is, 'you have not, because you ask not.'

Let my sister go.



I used to be like you, brother.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



I used to be like you, brother.

In what way?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

In what way?





The way how you say "leave my sister alone kind of way". The way you feel about God/religion.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



The way how you say "leave my sister alone kind of way". The way you feel about God/religion.

What changed since then?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

What changed since then?





Just realised how selfish and fucked up this whole religion (for the most part Christianity) is. I'm not going to cry over not getting into heaven. According to your God none of my family members, friends etc won't get into heaven... So I would rather stay closer to them.

This is a scary sight...

http://www2.hillsong.com/resource/Highlights.jpg

Gotta get me one of thse...

http://www.e-church.com/AssetsUser/amazon.htm

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



Just realised how selfish and fucked up this whole religion (for the most part Christianity) is. I'm not going to cry over not getting into heaven. According to your God none of my family members, friends etc won't get into heaven... So I would rather stay closer to them.

You think you're gonna be with family and friends in hell? Do you think hell is supposed to be some rip roarin' party?



[This message has been edited by hyroglyphx (edited 02-23-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

You think you're gonna be with family and friends in hell? Do you think hell is supposed to be some rip roarin' party?





I never said I will be. And how do you know what hell is like? Have you been there. Because you talk like you have...

Knowledge doesn't equate to predestination.

He tests our faith because we are created with the free will to respond accordingly.

Obviously, He doesn't control our free will. He could, but then it wouldn't be free will anymore, now would it ?

quote:Originally posted by blacksh33p18:



What about all the stillborn babies or kids that never reach the mental state to process the concept of right and wrong?

While infants and children have neither sensed their personal sin and need for salvation nor placed their faith in Christ, Scripture teaches that condemnation is based on the clear rejection of God's revelation (whether general or specific) not simple ignorance of it (Luke 10:16; John 12:48; 1 Thess. 4:8).

quote:While were on the topic what plan did god have for them? Did their parents not send the 700 club check?

Even our death, at any age, can be used as a tool for someone else's salvation.

The wonderful thing about humanity is that it becomes it's best when it is suffering it's worst.

Dealing with pain and suffering can open "spiritual" eyes.

It happens all the time.

quote:Originally posted by 3leet_life:

I don't really care. Why would i worship a god whos chosen people are the jews when im not jewish?

Because then He sent His son, Jesus Christ, to die for everyone else.

That includes you, Gentile.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

So how come he suddenly changed his mind about slavery? Women? etc etc



He didn't. Those were Hebraic laws, not God's laws.

Read the Bible before you start questioning it.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



Just realised how selfish and fucked up this whole religion (for the most part Christianity) is. I'm not going to cry over not getting into heaven. According to your God none of my family members, friends etc won't get into heaven... So I would rather stay closer to them.

Every day they are alive is a new day for them to choose.

You cannot say they will go to Hell, because their lives are not yet over.

People get saved at all different stages of their lives, and it is up to US to make sure as many people possible end up with us in Heaven.

How is that selfish ?

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



I never said I will be. And how do you know what hell is like? Have you been there. Because you talk like you have...

The description of hell in the Bible is VERY clear.

You claim to have once been Christian, yet you know nothing of the Bible, and you seem to really hate God at the moment.

I would doubt that you have ever been a Christian. Going to church every Sunday doesn't make you a Christian.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

He didn't. Those were Hebraic laws, not God's laws.

Read the Bible before you start questioning it.

Bible = God's word... if that isn't God's word what the fuck is it doing in there?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Every day they are alive is a new day for them to choose.

You cannot say they will go to Hell, because their lives are not yet over.

People get saved at all different stages of their lives, and it is up to US to make sure as many people possible end up with us in Heaven.

How is that selfish ?



Selfish as in you love "God" more then anyone and anything. Pretty fucking selfish if you ask me.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Knowledge doesn't equate to predestination.

He tests our faith because we are created with the free will to respond accordingly.

Obviously, He doesn't control our free will. He could, but then it wouldn't be free will anymore, now would it ?



I don't grasp the concept of free will if someone already knows what lies in front of you.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

Bible = God's word... if that isn't God's word what the fuck is it doing in there?

The Bible is not just an instruction manual. It is also a historical reference. There are many purposes for the Bible, and knowing about Hebraic laws are as important as anything else contained in it.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



Selfish as in you love "God" more then anyone and anything. Pretty fucking selfish if you ask me.

You have yet to tell me how that's selfish.

I love God with all my heart, mind, and soul...and no one in my life suffers from it.

Please explain in more detail why you think loving God more than anything else is selfish, especially when everything else is ALSO God's, anyway ?

For example, my kids aren't really mine. They are by flesh, but by spirit they are still God's.

I care for them, love them, clothe them, feed them, bathe them, and give them my affection and attention.

My love for God does not pose a detriment to my earthly relationships.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 02-24-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



I don't grasp the concept of free will if someone already knows what lies in front of you.

How does knowing what will happen force things to happen ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The description of hell in the Bible is VERY clear.

You claim to have once been Christian, yet you know nothing of the Bible, and you seem to really hate God at the moment.

I would doubt that you have ever been a Christian. Going to church every Sunday doesn't make you a Christian.

WTF? Do you take everything literally?

Care to point out what EXACTLY Hell is then?

"outer darkness" matt 25:30

"furnace of fire" matt 13:42

"lake of fire" revelation 20:15

etc

etc

And by the way, bible says that your soul will die as well as your body... So techically there is nothing to burn/suffer for iternity for is there?

And I didn't just got to church every Sunday. I have gone to church even 5 times a week on some ocassions. I also was helping out a full blown CHRISTIAN news paper as well as numerous religious websites - All for free. And believe me, having a company and having paying clients yet doing A LOT of work for free wasn't something I was "just" doing. I was dedicated to that stuff very much. Infact I still do work for those peoeple.

So please, lets not start jumping to conclusions now.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The Bible is not just an instruction manual. It is also a historical reference. There are many purposes for the Bible, and knowing about Hebraic laws are as important as anything else contained in it.



Okay then, if THAT part is so important, then how come bible doesn't mention ANYTHING about the time period when Adam and Eve ate the apple to all these Hebrew laws?

I mean, shit, I would much rather find out how much sex they (Adam and Eve) had in order to replicate themselves then heard all these laws...

[This message has been edited by ohhi (edited 02-24-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

How does knowing what will happen force things to happen ?



What are you talking about? You are saying that even if I know I will die... it might not happen?