People seem to throw tissy fits over the idea of cloning and AI. It doesn't compromise the idea of a soul. They fear that if we can reproduce human life that it won't mean as much. It is not as if these kids would be born in testtubes, never having seen human contact before. They are made exactly like an artificially-inseminated zygote is. It is exactly the same except the genetic material is from one person. On the other hand, a smart computer wouldn't make you any less human. I don't see how making sentience something that could be earned would make it less valuable. The only way to explain that would be natural greed; we want naturally born humans to be the only things with souls. We see ourselves as the only thigs worthy. Animals cannot feel or reason because they aren't human and God doesn't love them. Computers can never be made smarter and more rational than man because a lesser creature with reason is sacrilege. A genetically identical human should be disowned while the aborted and brain dead are venerated. Someday you'll have to look in the mirror without fearing you won't be there. Someday you'll ahve to lift the ciborum to see if Jesus still loves you.

What I'm worried about with AI is the artificially created beings, themselves. I mean, does it eventually get to the point that they should they be treated as real people? At this point we can delete files on our computer without a sense of immorality, so long as those files aren't important to somebody. What would happen if you made a copy of an AI person, or thousands of copies? Stuff like that.

Simple. Treat them like people.

Preconceptions are deadly. We have trouble seeing clones as people because we have these prerequisites for what is human. Humans, in actuallity, are bipedal non-hibernatorial hairless mammals with 21 chromosome pairs. We ahve trouble seeing anythign else as sentient because we see sentience as being a human trait. Think of it this way; if the AI was a human from birth, would there be an issue? No. Sure, it would be weird that you could delete files from them, but there would be no issue. AI (or, anything with sentience for that matter) should be treated the same. it is intelligent. It is aware. Treat it like that.

Simple. Don't program them with any desires of their own.

Program them instead to feel joy at obeying a humans commands. Give them delight in pleasing their masters. They will never know anything over than pure bliss.

What creature would want to deny such an existence once it had experienced it?

Regarding cloning, I think the issue people have wrong with it is it can destroy the concept of 'family'. Anyone who has read "Brave New World" knows exactly what I'm talking about.

However, clones (if they should ever be so unfortunate to come into existance) should be treated as humans. As pointed out before, they are biologically the same as everyone else. I do believe that every clone should be given a mother and father at child birth. While created by machines or biologists, they should never be raised by them. It's when that is done that they have been seperated from the rest of humanity.

Regarding AI, I believe it impossible to replicate/surpass human cognition. Robots cannot become self-aware, even thought they can easily give the illusion that they are. A bot saying to you "I am a bot", is not the bot truly recognizing that it is a bot, but simply giving the response coded for that particular situation.

Some of you say "program them to feel joy when helping humans". Don't you understand? They can't truly feel joy. It's all an illusion painted by the programmers. They can feel nothing.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Regarding AI, I believe it impossible to replicate/surpass human cognition. Robots cannot become self-aware, even thought they can easily give the illusion that they are. A bot saying to you "I am a bot", is not the bot truly recognizing that it is a bot, but simply giving the response coded for that particular situation.

Self awareness comes from being able to comprehend that you are seperate from your surroundings and an ability to recognize 'self' and assess changes to self. This requires a few basic senses to detect 'self' and a complex enough brain. We already have the technology and computing power to create a self aware machine, just not on the same level as humans, so it is only a matter of time.



quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Some of you say "program them to feel joy when helping humans". Don't you understand? They can't truly feel joy. It's all an illusion painted by the programmers. They can feel nothing.

I hate to break this to you but the experiences you would classify as joy, fear love, hate etc... are neurochemical responses which result in different parts of your brain lighting up with electrical impulses. They are no more "real" than the electrical impulses in a sentient CPU would be; the mechanism may differ, but the effect is the same.

The fact is that we really don't know what causes the chemistry in our brains to be felt as emotions. If we find out why, we should be able to intentionally create AI similar to human beings.

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:



I hate to break this to you but the experiences you would classify as joy, fear love, hate etc... are neurochemical responses which result in different parts of your brain lighting up with electrical impulses. They are no more "real" than the electrical impulses in a sentient CPU would be; the mechanism may differ, but the effect is the same.



A few problems. First, the processes of the human mind, these electrical impulses, control the flow of several different chemicals creating all the various feelings we feel. It isn't quite the same as with machines. Computers have two possible results of an electric impulse: transistor on, or transistor off. We aren't nearly this restricted; and as long as all computers run on simple binomial code, the kind of programming you fantasize about will never be a reality.

quote:Self awareness comes from being able to comprehend that you are seperate from your surroundings and an ability to recognize 'self' and assess changes to self. This requires a few basic senses to detect 'self' and a complex enough brain. We already have the technology and computing power to create a self aware machine, just not on the same level as humans, so it is only a matter of time.

Sensing your surroundings in relation to yourself is not being 'self-aware'. Humans acknowledge their own existence. We know that we will die. We know what death is. We can look at other humans in pain, and sympathize with that pain. These are things machines will never be able to achieve. They may be able to simulate the same responses, but the won't be genuine.

You need to learn the difference between a computer coded, simulated response (which is capable of seeming very real), and genuine, real response.

You also need to reevaluate your views on humanity if you believe we are nothing more than a bunch of biological machines, slaves to the chemical functions of our brains.

Not to sound condescending, but you started it with your petty "I hate to break this to you..." bullshit. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:These are things machines will never be able to achieve. They may be able to simulate the same responses, but the won't be genuine.

How do you know this? Other then the fact that you say so what do you have to back up your conjecture?

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

A few problems. First, the processes of the human mind, these electrical impulses, control the flow of several different chemicals creating all the various feelings we feel. It isn't quite the same as with machines. Computers have two possible results of an electric impulse: transistor on, or transistor off. We aren't nearly this restricted; and as long as all computers run on simple binomial code, the kind of programming you fantasize about will never be a reality.

Sensing your surroundings in relation to yourself is not being 'self-aware'. Humans acknowledge their own existence. We know that we will die. We know what death is. We can look at other humans in pain, and sympathize with that pain. These are things machines will never be able to achieve. They may be able to simulate the same responses, but the won't be genuine.

You need to learn the difference between a computer coded, simulated response (which is capable of seeming very real), and genuine, real response.

You also need to reevaluate your views on humanity if you believe we are nothing more than a bunch of biological machines, slaves to the chemical functions of our brains.

Not to sound condescending, but you started it with your petty "I hate to break this to you..." bullshit. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

I'm sorry but in terms of physics, not perception, could you explain to me what is more "real" about human emotion compared to 'synthesised' computer emotion be it now or in the future?

Secondly I think you're deluding yourself into thinking that your 'special' simply because you are a carbon based lifeform. You cling to the belief that neural networking, quantum computing and 'learning computers' won't lead to silicone based life, despite the inevitable march of progress, that will eventually qualify for and then surpass our limited concept of sentience. Or alternatively lead to some form of symbiosis, upgrades if you will, in which case you would probably regard them as sub human, based on your current thinking.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

We can look at other humans in pain, and sympathize with that pain.

Ahahahaha...and I suppose you think this is a "real" emotion, as opposed to a socially programmed or "coded" value which exists to benefit the species as a whole.

Human emotions are a combination of dozens of chemicals within the mind coupled with subconcious memory and processing formed by neural networks. The neural network has already been simulated by the internet and search engines (proof of that is a full essay on its own, but it should be fairly easy to figure out). All we'd need to do would be to simulate these chemicals and give the AI enough room for memories and a personal internet (crazy as it amy sound). Miniturization would probably shrink the components down to brain-proportions given enough time.

I honestly believe that we, all living members of the Earth, are well on our way to destroying the line taht seperates humans from the rest of life. This scares us. We don't want everyone else to rejoice in life and sentience with us. We'd feel like we had no control. Manifest Destiny, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the various slaughters in Africa, South America and Asia... We want control and power. Once we give up this idea, we will find that the entire universe is out there, outside of heads and tunnel vision.

I think the only way to God, if it is real, is the uniting of all life.

On another note entirely, I am completely uncertain whether this fits better here or in humanities. My point straddles the confines of both. Move this at your discretion, Lost. I have no fucking clue where this would fit better.

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

Ahahahaha...and I suppose you think this is a "real" emotion, as opposed to a socially programmed or "coded" value which exists to benefit the species as a whole.

You don't believe in real emotion at all? Do you not experience them yourself?

So you brush off sadness as a 'coded value of your species'? Does happiness mean nothing to you because it is composed solely of chemical reactions in your brain?

If this is how you feel, I pity you.

quote:I'm sorry but in terms of physics, not perception, could you explain to me what is more "real" about human emotion compared to 'synthesised' computer emotion be it now or in the future?

What is more 'real' about our emotions? The sheer complexity of it! How often does one feel just sadness, just anger, just happiness? Never. Sadness can be associated it depressed, lonely, humiliated, regected; anger coupled with betrayal, or any feeling of sadness; happiness from completing a goal, pride in one's self or one's comrades.

A computer can't know these things. You're telling me that a computer can feel lonely? That it can feel both the heartbreak and rage from being cheated on? The sorrow of watching a fellow bot die from a virus? The joy of achieving a lifetime dream?

Can computers even dream? Can they see something and think "I want that, I wish I were like them"?

You underestimate the complexity of the human brain, and overestimate the ability of the human programmer.

Just imagine every feeling you've ever felt, your best and worst memories. Try to imagine a piece of silicone splattered with millions of transistors truly feeling the same way as you did in those experiences. Can you?

If ever a machine was created that could successfully emulate human emotion and cognition, to it's fullest abilities and beyond...it would be destroyed, if it didn't destroy us first.

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

You cling to the belief that neural networking, quantum computing and 'learning computers' won't lead to silicone based life, despite the inevitable march of progress, that will eventually qualify for and then surpass our limited concept of sentience.

I will admit: there is a possibility (although I personally believe there is a very low probability) of machines someday replicating the cognitive abilities of humans.

My point is, do not underestimate the human mind. We don't even know everything there is to know about it, yet.

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 01-30-2006).]

Who's underestimating the human mind? If anyone it's you. Your underestimating our abilities to think and reason and create. There's nothing magical about consciousness it's just a series of physical reactions that can be duplicated given time effort and understanding.

It may sound to you like human consciousness is being sold short but I assure you it's not.

Just because the mystery is gone doesn't mean the grandeur is destroyed. You may fear a non-human mind as an abomination but remember it will be a reflection of it's creators. If it will be an abomination it will be because we fear it and make it so.

Touché. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)