It seems that every time I go in this forum, there's always a thread about how evolution is disproving creationism.

Well, you're wrong.

If God created everything, then he must certainly have created evolution, in which, evolution actually proves the existence of God.

If God does not exist, learning about evolution would be a waste of time, as there is only a here and now. No point in wasting time looking back in the past is there? If God does not exist, then we have only one life and it would be a waste learning about what some human used to hunt.

NO, now if you say that adam and eve were not as inteligent, and their "structure" wasnt as complex as we are now, the I would totaly be on your side. but your statement is based on nothing.

EDIT: and if there is only a here and now, why can you learn from your mistakes, or are you saying that is all that matters? cause It really isn't.

[This message has been edited by bushy (edited 02-07-2006).]

It was best explained by one of the Popular Science editors in the latest issue: Intelligent Design is not falsifiable, and therefore has no place in modern science or our children's classrooms.

And as a student in one of those classrooms, I don't want to be force fed ID.

quote:Originally posted by stiffo:

If God does not exist, learning about evolution would be a waste of time, as there is only a here and now. No point in wasting time looking back in the past is there? If God does not exist, then we have only one life and it would be a waste learning about what some human used to hunt.

There's something to be said for knowledge for the sake of knowledge.

It doesn't disprove God, however it disproves the judeo-christian God.

Eg: If the "seven days" referes to millions of years of evolution, then animals had eaten eachother and had cancer long before the incident at Eden. According to the bible, animals were vegitarians before adam screwed up. Also, fossil records show animals with cancer. Therefor God would have to have created cancer and called it "good." Lots of other things in genesis (thorns and thistles)that will not allow for the coexistence of biblical accuracy and evolution.

So you are left with a few options:

1. Evolution is full of crap and the bible is true.

2. The bible isn't right, but God exists in some form and uses evolution.

3. Everything is full of crap.

Beleif in evolution and strict adherence to the bible cannot exist.

I have a feeling that if people read and followed the FAQ, this forum wouldn't exist.

Definition time.

Creation: The belief that God created.

Creationism: An attempt at a scientific theory that says (among other things) that God created animal kinds and animals can't change beyond these kinds. They also don't evolve but devolve.

Creationism and evolution can't coexist. Creationism is false.

Evolution and the belief in God or the belief that God created can exist together.



Even if God doesn't exist you are wrong that we don't need to understand evolution. It's the backbone of modern biology and allows us to make advances in medicine and understanding of biology.

quote:Originally posted by stiffo:



If God created everything, then he must certainly have created evolution, in which, evolution actually proves the existence of God.

If God does not exist, learning about evolution would be a waste of time, as there is only a here and now. No point in wasting time looking back in the past is there? If God does not exist, then we have only one life and it would be a waste learning about what some human used to hunt.



Oh, good, and here I thought you were going to say somthing I expect to hear a FUCKING MORON TO SAY.

The concept of evolution does not mention god and it suggests if not pronounces god plays not part in it and therefore either god does not exist or is not the god we (by we I mean you) believe exists.

NO, if god does not exist it means that it is the true natural history of the world and for people who read nothing but, parables from 10,000+ years ago you give up all the history lessons very fast when your favorite character is not in the story.

Another way to think about it is life is finite and going to sleep early saturday night to wake up sunday morning to spend 2 hours a week, 8 hours a month, 96 hours a year, 6,240 hours in a 65 year old's lifetime is WAY TO MUCH TIME NOT ENJOYING LIFE.

For fucks's sake even if you live the clean life watching pg-13 movies till 3am or dancing or some other crap most of us consider fucking lame sober, its infinately more enjoyable than hearing the worlds oldest guilt trip.

I'm sorry but, the only thing I can't stand more than ignorance/stupidity is when the ignorant/stupid attempt to convince others.

quote:Originally posted by stiffo:

If God created everything, then he must certainly have created evolution, in which, evolution actually proves the existence of God.

I agree with you in that evolution does not disprove the existance of God... However, Evolution does not prove the existance of God either...

If a God did exist, that God would have created matter, and hence the laws of physics... Yet the fact that laws of physics exist in no way proves or even suggests the existance of God...

No science will ever prove or disprove the existance of the Supernatural...

Science is the study of Nature, so if god was natural; Science could prove a God exists...

Edit: Proof for or against God's existance will come from religious circles alone...

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 02-07-2006).]

So ?

I personally think this ID shit, is exactly that, shit.

However something I've never understood is, the Big Bang, theres a lot of proof of it now, so its rather grounded, but there's still one very large question, why ? Why did a singular point suddenly expand, and annihale and produce the matter the forces and so forth in our Universe today ?

Divine intervention possibly? I never did quite see why all those christain religious extremeists didn't seize upon that idea.

The whole "God created the universe in 7 days" is pure allegory. As in, a story that overly symplifies events or, has a hidden more complex meaning (e.g. Animal Farm). Thing that gets me is in Islam, God, or in this case Allah, created the world in 7 Sutras, or time periods. Very similar but much more allowing of later discoveries.

I guess now I'm just using this arguement to further my whole idea that all the religions came from one. And it was certain power hungry men who had a desire to have a seperate religions.

I myself am a Quaker (UK version though). But thats how I see it.

quote:Originally posted by TheFallenAngel:

So ?

I personally think this ID shit, is exactly that, shit.

However something I've never understood is, the Big Bang, theres a lot of proof of it now, so its rather grounded, but there's still one very large question, why ? Why did a singular point suddenly expand, and annihale and produce the matter the forces and so forth in our Universe today ?

Divine intervention possibly? I never did quite see why all those christain religious extremeists didn't seize upon that idea.

The whole "God created the universe in 7 days" is pure allegory. As in, a story that overly symplifies events or, has a hidden more complex meaning (e.g. Animal Farm). Thing that gets me is in Islam, God, or in this case Allah, created the world in 7 Sutras, or time periods. Very similar but much more allowing of later discoveries.

I guess now I'm just using this arguement to further my whole idea that all the religions came from one. And it was certain power hungry men who had a desire to have a seperate religions.

I myself am a Quaker (UK version though). But thats how I see it.



Well yeah, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are from the same branch of the Zoroastrian religion... Which is why they would have similar faults in the creation of the universe...

Now why the big bang?... Its important to note that the big bang didn't happen in our universe... So its not bound by this universe's laws of physics... The big bang happened somewhere outside of space/time and created this universe...

Perhaps this singularity existed on a string of pure energy... This string of pure energy violently vibrates and collides with another string of pure energy causing a massive explosion... Causing matter and light to be thrown outwards and causing time to start ticking...

Possibly these strings collide all the time and thousands of universes exist paralleled...

Perhaps we're just a space/time dimension of another dimension... Perhaps cognition and human consciousness is a primal representation of a higher order... And the species that evolve from humans will experience consciousness in another form... Who knows...

But there's evidence you can see and measure for these naturally occurring things... The only evidence of God is known to those with faith...

Edit: You say why would it suddenly expand?... There was no time, so it wasn't sitting around for ever then suddenly exploded... It fired and started time as we know it...

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 02-08-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by TheFallenAngel:



...

However something I've never understood is, the Big Bang, theres a lot of proof of it now, so its rather grounded, but there's still one very large question, why ? Why did a singular point suddenly expand, and annihale and produce the matter the forces and so forth in our Universe today ?

...



The big bang wasn't a singular point in the universe. The entire volume of the universe existed in a high-density, high-temperature state. This means every square inch of the universe existed in this state, and this is called the big bang. For example, at 10 millionths of a second old, the universe was entirely filled up with high-energy photons with temperatures of over one trillion degrees. If photons have enough energy, two can combine, converting their energy into a particle of normal matter and a particle of antimatter.

Of course further processes followed, but you didn't ask for an astronomy lesson, so I'll stop there.

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:



...

Now why the big bang?... Its important to note that the big bang didn't happen in our universe... So its not bound by this universe's laws of physics... The big bang happened somewhere outside of space/time and created this universe...

...



What?

[This message has been edited by 1981 (edited 02-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by 1981:

What?



Sorry 1981, you're going to have to be more specific...

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Sorry 1981, you're going to have to be more specific...

If you could elaborate a little on your statement that "The big bang happened somewhere outside of space/time and created this universe...", as I have never read such a thing.

And the award for worst reasoning skills of all time goes to stiffo.

quote:Originally posted by 1981:

If you could elaborate a little on your statement that "The big bang happened somewhere outside of space/time and created this universe...", as I have never read such a thing.



Sorry 1981, I've been away... The big bang created time and gave space its dimension... So prior to it occuring there was no space/time...

quote:Originally posted by 1981:

If you could elaborate a little on your statement that "The big bang happened somewhere outside of space/time and created this universe...", as I have never read such a thing.



Not that I disparaging you, but if you read a bit more, you realise that there wasn't any universe per sec as we now know it when the Big Bang started. It JUST wasn't in existance. Thus, there are theories that the big bang was the result of the implosion of a old universe, and we are now in the early (expanding) stage of the new universe

quote:Originally posted by stiffo:

It seems that every time I go in this forum, there's always a thread about how evolution is disproving creationism.

Well, you're wrong.

If God created everything, then he must certainly have created evolution, in which, evolution actually proves the existence of God.

If God does not exist, learning about evolution would be a waste of time, as there is only a here and now. No point in wasting time looking back in the past is there? If God does not exist, then we have only one life and it would be a waste learning about what some human used to hunt.



You arguement is flawed. To assume that "god created everything, then he must certainly have created evolution" is a faulty statement, because then you must assume God is real in the first place. Which is already highly debatable on it's own.

Furthermore, if he does not exist, there are still many people who would like to study human history. Because there are many civilzations who have done amazing things (i.e. pyramids), and there are things we could learn from the past. You are just being naive, to suggest that it is a waste of time.

What is a waste of time, is that if God does not exist, people who spend time worshipping a non-existent entity.

quote:Originally posted by Aeon:



What is a waste of time, is that if God does not exist, people who spend time worshipping a non-existent entity.

Evolution doesn't disprove any aspect of god. The creation stories are not ment to be taken literally. They are ment to contain symbolism and lessons. And evolution has never been proven totally true. Thats why it is a theory not a law.

quote:Originally posted by StealthyRacoons:

And evolution has never been proven totally true. Thats why it is a theory not a law.

I'll say this slowly so you can understand me...

You... Are... fucking... retarded....

That is all...

If memory serves me correctly, it's called Theistic Evolutionism and is the current doctrine of the Catholic Church.

quote:Originally posted by Aeon:



You arguement is flawed. To assume that "god created everything, then he must certainly have created evolution" is a faulty statement, because then you must assume God is real in the first place. Which is already highly debatable on it's own.

Furthermore, if he does not exist, there are still many people who would like to study human history. Because there are many civilzations who have done amazing things (i.e. pyramids), and there are things we could learn from the past. You are just being naive, to suggest that it is a waste of time.

What is a waste of time, is that if God does not exist, people who spend time worshipping a non-existent entity.

Holy shit. I just said at the start of the thread, I went through both fucking possibilities. How the hell is it flawed? Either God exists or he doesn't. I ran through both possibilities.

Fuck.

Creationism contradicts itself. God created man but no one and nothing could have possibly created god. thats just fucking stupid.

quote:Originally posted by stiffo:

It seems that every time I go in this forum, there's always a thread about how evolution is disproving creationism.

Well, you're wrong.

If God created everything, then he must certainly have created evolution, in which, evolution actually proves the existence of God.

If God does not exist, learning about evolution would be a waste of time, as there is only a here and now. No point in wasting time looking back in the past is there? If God does not exist, then we have only one life and it would be a waste learning about what some human used to hunt.

Having said this, there doesn't neccessarily have to be a god to afford a higher purpose in life. You need to create your own purpose, constantly challenge, ponder everything, eventually you will discover a purpose.

I do not believe in a god or the fairytales that scriptures and doctrines have to offer, I do however believe in life after death and believe that it is within the boundaries of science, but probably not within the boundaries of society.

[This message has been edited by jb_mcbean (edited 02-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by stiffo:

Holy shit. I just said at the start of the thread, I went through both fucking possibilities. How the hell is it flawed? Either God exists or he doesn't. I ran through both possibilities.

Fuck.



No you didn't. What you said is not equal to what I said. The way you worded it, doesn't make sense, and are not arguements that people actual use.

Also, those are only 2 arguements you made up that are merely 2 out of many possible ones.

-----------------------------------------------

People who believe in God, usually believe in creation theory. Where as, atheists more often believe in evolution.

This is one of your arguements:

So...if God created everything, hence he created evolution, then God must exist. Is this an athiest or thiest saying this?

An atheist might say this about your arguement:

"I don't believe in God, and I don't believe that he created everything, especially not evolution. But evolution is real, so how does that prove God exist? I sure as hell don't think so. You don't know what the hell you are talking about".

A thiest might say arguement:

"God did create everything, and he does exist. The creation of everything is called 'Creationism'. God did not create evolution, and evolution is not real. So how can you claim evolution proves God? I think God is already real, and evolution had nothing to do with him."



Basically, you came up with an arguement that nobody ever uses, and doesn't even make sense in the first place.

If you had read my post, I already have explained why the arguement is flawed. But if you aren't competent enough to understand it, I won't shed a tear.

[This message has been edited by Aeon (edited 02-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Well yeah, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are from the same branch of the Zoroastrian religion... Which is why they would have similar faults in the creation of the universe...

Judaism is older than Zoroastrianism. However, it was influenced by it when Zoroastrianism came out. Christianity is sort of a mix of the two plus some Greek philosophy and mystery cults. I dunno about Islam, but it was probably influenced by Judaism and Christianity.

Both Christianity and Islam use the Jewish Tanach as the backbone for their history. And the Jews got the story in Genesis chapter 1 from the Babylonians, in a sense. The story in Genesis 2 is older, and also is a common ANE type creation story.

This is just for the sake of argument, but:

How do you know that a god didn't create the universe one second ago exactly the way it is? Created us will all of our memories and everything, and we just started to exist. Think about that. Looking at it that way, there is absolutely no way to prove that God does not exist, and there is no way to prove that he does exist. This is exactly why no matter what side you take, except agnostic, it is simply a belief.

chubby, are you suggesting that no belief or opinion is better than any other?

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Sorry 1981, I've been away... The big bang created time and gave space its dimension... So prior to it occuring there was no space/time...

Again, I would like to ask where you acquired this information, perhaps you could provide a link to a current and respectable website.

The big bang did not create time nor give space its dimensions. Time is a human concept and the dimensions of space were in tact prior to the big bang. Perhaps your understanding of the big bang is a little off track. I tried to explain this in a previous post, not sure if you read it or not.

quote:Originally posted by leumas:

Not that I disparaging you, but if you read a bit more, you realise that there wasn't any universe per sec as we now know it when the Big Bang started. It JUST wasn't in existance. Thus, there are theories that the big bang was the result of the implosion of a old universe, and we are now in the early (expanding) stage of the new universe

Of course the universe wasn't as we know it before the big bang. The universe is constantly evolving each and every day. Current scientific knowledge of the big bang mentions nothing about it being an early universe that exploded. Granted it might be a recognized theory, but it surely isn't the accepted one.

As for reading further? I'm not sure what you want me to read further into, but perhaps you should read my previous post to further your understanding of what the big bang actually was.

Evolution doesn't disprove creation, but it does disprove biblical creation, which is disproved by: biology, geology, astronomy etc.

still, no one is going to prove that the universe was created by supernatural means.

there is no evidence for the supernatural at all. the end full stop.

quote:Originally posted by 1981:

Again, I would like to ask where you acquired this information, perhaps you could provide a link to a current and respectable website.

The big bang did not create time nor give space its dimensions. Time is a human concept and the dimensions of space were in tact prior to the big bang. Perhaps your understanding of the big bang is a little off track. I tried to explain this in a previous post, not sure if you read it or not.

I'm not too sure what you're after... Einstein has always been my mentor on the astronomical... I found an article that is relevant on wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

Having said that, I've never heard of your theory of the Big Bang... I've always been taught that the big bang created space/time unless you're referring to the static universe model, which has been rejected by the current scientific community...

You are completely wrong about time however... Time is not a human concept... Time has been proven to be relative...

Lastly, how can the universe have dimension (Other than Infinite) in a sigularity?... You've confused me somewhat... I may be wrong here... But I've never heard otherwise...

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Judaism is older than Zoroastrianism. However, it was influenced by it when Zoroastrianism came out. Christianity is sort of a mix of the two plus some Greek philosophy and mystery cults. I dunno about Islam, but it was probably influenced by Judaism and Christianity.

Both Christianity and Islam use the Jewish Tanach as the backbone for their history. And the Jews got the story in Genesis chapter 1 from the Babylonians, in a sense. The story in Genesis 2 is older, and also is a common ANE type creation story.

Somebody did their homework!

Well, just a interpretation of the Garden of Eden story linked with evolution theory (if it were true, it would even prove evolution):

Probably everything in the Bible have a subliminal meaning, and maybe Eden represents the state of mind of the pre-human being(put equaly with the other animals) and the apple eating is the representation of the time this being gained a "soul", a mind, and differed from the other animals.

It would still not disprove creation, because the other animals would have been created by God (As I believe God is a "being" itself, our creator and our end). Anyway, just an idea.

quote:Originally posted by stiffo:

It seems that every time I go in this forum, there's always a thread about how evolution is disproving creationism.

Well, you're wrong.

If God created everything, then he must certainly have created evolution, in which, evolution actually proves the existence of God.

If God does not exist, learning about evolution would be a waste of time, as there is only a here and now. No point in wasting time looking back in the past is there? If God does not exist, then we have only one life and it would be a waste learning about what some human used to hunt.



it disproves the god IN THE BIBLE. THE FUCKING WORD OF GOD dumbass.

God made the world in 7 days. DISPROVED

The world is only 6000 years old. evolution DISPROVES THIS.

God made man in his own image. DISPROVED.

Religion is not a disputable concept. It is simply a bunch of stories to make people feel better about death.

quote:Originally posted by -Mephisto-:



it disproves the god IN THE BIBLE. THE FUCKING WORD OF GOD dumbass.

God made the world in 7 days. DISPROVED

The world is only 6000 years old. evolution DISPROVES THIS.

God made man in his own image. DISPROVED.

Religion is not a disputable concept. It is simply a bunch of stories to make people feel better about death.

I really think if someone believes in something, no one should just put something in their face and say "you believe because your stupid". Diferent people have diferent reasons, some may need a god maybe cause they fucked up their lives, some need to back up them in their "good action" despite anything people say about being good. Some may use as a reason for the "bad action". A little off topic, but had to coment. By the way, I'm not religious, but I do believe in a God that created us, and someday we will return to him.

quote:Originally posted by Junyi:

I really think if someone believes in something, no one should just put something in their face and say "you believe because your stupid". Diferent people have diferent reasons, some may need a god maybe cause they fucked up their lives, some need to back up them in their "good action" despite anything people say about being good. Some may use as a reason for the "bad action". A little off topic, but had to coment. By the way, I'm not religious, but I do believe in a God that created us, and someday we will return to him.

So what are you saying? That we should keep people ignorant for fear of offending them? People are certainly entitled to believe that the government is not lying to them, or that invisible demons make people sick or whatever. Beliefs that are not based on reality however can be the source of much evil and suffering. People DO NEED TO KNOW that their beliefs are stupid, no matter how much it hurts. The current state of the world is everyone's responsibility and what people believe is crucial to it.

What I'm trying to say is that we don't need to throw things and facts at people all at once. There are people that when went through something very harsh, saw in God a hope. I'm not saying that to see only God and not look for the truth behind things is right, but if we keep smacking them in the face, your not helping also. It's a lot better to give facts and reasons, show that you are right, and in time, if you really are right, they will understand. Also, try not to throw God away from their beliefs, just show that other things are possible, and show them how to see things from all sides, and they will learn to think for themselves.