What don't you understand and what you disagree with it about.

This is maintly for Digital, but others are more than welcome to post. For the record, I'm NOT A CATHOLIC. I also wasn't raised as a Catholic. Catholicism is just a religion that I find extremely interesting, so I've read quite a bit about it. I've also gone to a Catholic school for 14 years, so that is 14 years of religion classes.

I'll start this off my dispelling a few things.

Catholics do not deify Mary. They hold her in the highest regard, and they believe that since she had a virgin conception and birth, that God Blessed her(hence why she is called the Blessed Virgin Mary). Catholics also believe in her assumption to heaven. She is also referred to as The Mother of God, which is entirely accurate. She gave birth to Jesus(who is God), so therefore she is the mother of God. Catholics also believe that Mary was without sin, though this is supported by logic. For her to give birth to Jesus, she couldn't have sin. A sinful being could in no way give birth to a sinless being. For the matter of this discussion, it's impossible. Therefore she was born without original sin and she committed no sin.

Catholics also have Saints, however, they do not idolize the saints. That would go against God. When Catholics pray to saints, they aren't worshipping them, they're asking for intercession in their lives. This is an incredibly hard thing to explain, so I think I'll let St. Thomas Aquinas do it, since he's much more knowledgeable and a much better writer than I'll ever be.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/507202.htm

I reply to stuff as they come.

I do want people to remember one thing about Catholicism though. Unlike ALL other Christian faiths, Catholicism uses tradition as one of it's bedrocks. Protestant religions don't have tradition and they believe it to be unimportant, but Catholics don't. They believe in the tradition of Christ and the tradition of the Church, so that is why you will see a lot of early Christian documents used as support. They believe that there is something within the mere idea of tradition that makes it correct. Basically, just remember that the Roman Catholic Church places great emphasis on tradition.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Catholics do not deify Mary. They hold her in the highest regard, and they believe that since she had a virgin conception and birth, that God Blessed her(hence why she is called the Blessed Virgin Mary). Catholics also believe in her assumption to heaven. She is also referred to as The Mother of God, which is entirely accurate. She gave birth to Jesus(who is God), so therefore she is the mother of God. Catholics also believe that Mary was without sin, though this is supported by logic. For her to give birth to Jesus, she couldn't have sin. A sinful being could in no way give birth to a sinless being. For the matter of this discussion, it's impossible. Therefore she was born without original sin and she committed no sin.

What I heard was that original sin is passed down through the sperm, and since Mary had an immaculent conception, Jesus was without original sin. Not sure who came up with that one.

I know they say Jesus is without sin, but the History Channel basically said that Jesus was a bastard child until he was nine years old.

Is this true? And if so, does his age suspend him from having sin?

Also, you said they don't idolize saints. If I recall correctly, there were feast days for saints. Can you clear that up?

I think Protestant religions don't have tradition because they are the noobs of religion, being branched off around 500 years ago. Even Islam beats them out by 900 years.

My questions are serious, and are not intended to have a smart-ass connotations. These are things that just puzzled me.

Edit: Made an oopsie on the origin of Islam.

[This message has been edited by Sgt. Lag (edited 02-10-2006).]

www.catholic-forums.com (http://www.catholic-forums.com)

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Catholics do not deify Mary. They hold her in the highest regard, and they believe that since she had a virgin conception and birth, that God Blessed her(hence why she is called the Blessed Virgin Mary). Catholics also believe in her assumption to heaven. She is also referred to as The Mother of God, which is entirely accurate. She gave birth to Jesus(who is God), so therefore she is the mother of God. Catholics also believe that Mary was without sin, though this is supported by logic. For her to give birth to Jesus, she couldn't have sin. A sinful being could in no way give birth to a sinless being. For the matter of this discussion, it's impossible. Therefore she was born without original sin and she committed no sin.

So Catholicism claims Jesus was without sin, thus his "mother" had to have been without sin. However, using this reasoning, didn't Mary's parents, grandparents, etc. have to be without sin? How is this possible?

She was immaculately conceived. That means when she was born God made it so that she was preserved from original sin by God's grace. Mary lived in a perpetual state of Grace, given to her by God. This is why it wouldn't be necessary for her parents to be without original sin.

As for saints and their feast days; Those days are basically commemorations and celebrations of the works of the particular saints. It isn't a day of worship, but more of a day of commemoration. Think of it like veterans day. Feasts also extend beyond the saints into many other events, such as the assumption of Mary.

I have'nt seen anything about Jesus being a bastard. I'm not a big fan of the History Channel's religious stuff.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

She was immaculately conceived. That means when she was born God made it so that she was preserved from original sin by God's grace. Mary lived in a perpetual state of Grace, given to her by God. This is why it wouldn't be necessary for her parents to be without original sin.

Haha.

quote:A sinful being could in no way give birth to a sinless being. For the matter of this discussion, it's impossible.

You contradict yourself. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 02-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

www.catholic-forums.com (http://www.catholic-forums.com)

That's http://www.catholic-forum.com/ Like, without the s at the end.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

She was immaculately conceived. That means when she was born God made it so that she was preserved from original sin by God's grace. Mary lived in a perpetual state of Grace, given to her by God. This is why it wouldn't be necessary for her parents to be without original sin.

I guess I just don't see why there has to be a "middleman." Why couldn't God have simply preserved Jesus from original sin in the same way he preserved Mary from original sin?

Edit: I don't know how to use punctuation properly.

[This message has been edited by jsaxton14 (edited 02-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

She was immaculately conceived. That means when she was born God made it so that she was preserved from original sin by God's grace. Mary lived in a perpetual state of Grace, given to her by God. This is why it wouldn't be necessary for her parents to be without original sin.

Haha.

quote:A sinful being could in no way give birth to a sinless being. For the matter of this discussion, it's impossible.

You contradict yourself. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)



I should have been clearer. There is no way for a sinful being to give birth to God(or the son of God for that matter). Sinless was too nonspecific. My apologies.

jsaxton14:

I don't know the absolute answer to your question, but if I had to guess I'd say it'd be because Jesus was divine and also man. This means that he had to come from someone without sin. Mary on the other hand was simply without sin. She was born and God intervened and made her without sin and gave her perpetual grace. They're very similar cases, but if I had to guess, that would be the reasoning behind it. If I find something that answers your question I'll post it.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

That's http://www.catholic-forum.com/ Like, without the s at the end.

whoops, my bad... anyway, does anybody find it funny that with all of the persecution that the Church militant suffers on Earth, we tend to bear the most of it with humility and patience, yet when the muslims have their "prophet" put in a cartoon, on one occasion, they start KILLING people? How many times has the media defiled and mocked His Holiness the Pope's image? Yet society, which has never apologised to us, is offering all the apologies they can to the muslims. For the record, with this thread, I became a Roman Catholic when I was 19, up until then I dabbled in all sorts of things, from shamanism to various forms of occultism, and I can say truly, with all sincerity, that the Holy Roman Catholic Church is the ONE and ONLY True Church of Jesus Christ, the only legitimate form of Christianity, and the only valid Religion in the world today. I know this to be true, not because of anything anybody else has ever said, but because of what I feel, when I am in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, when I receive the Sacred Host, and Precious Blood, and [incidentally one of the things which our enemies dipsute most], when I confess with true contrition and repentance, I can FEEL my sins being forgiven, I can literally feel my transgressions being absolved.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

.

As for saints and their feast days; Those days are basically commemorations and celebrations of the works of the particular saints. It isn't a day of worship, but more of a day of commemoration. Think of it like veterans day. Feasts also extend beyond the saints into many other events, such as the assumption of Mary.

I.

Some of the feast days are more than just feast days - such as the Assumption of Mary, they are Holydays of obligation. Depending on which country you are in these may actually vary, though there are usually about ten. Check your country's Catechism for more details.

One thing I really don't get is this "inherent sin." It makes absolutely no sense. How could an innocent child possibly be responsible for the sin of Adam? And where is the support for inherent sin in the Bible? Why should anyone other than himself be responsible for what he did?

Not just that, but also the Trinity, that is, Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost all being the same being. There is no support for that in the Bible, in fact it wasn't even accepted in the Catholic church until after 300 A.D.

Edit: I'm not trying to say Catholics are bad people or anything, those are just a couple of things that I would like clarified.

[This message has been edited by chubbyman25 (edited 02-16-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by chubbyman25:

One thing I really don't get is this "inherent sin." It makes absolutely no sense. How could an innocent child possibly be responsible for the sin of Adam? And where is the support for inherent sin in the Bible? Why should anyone other than himself be responsible for what he did?

Not just that, but also the Trinity, that is, Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost all being the same being. There is no support for that in the Bible, in fact it wasn't even accepted in the Catholic church until after 300 A.D.

Edit: I'm not trying to say Catholics are bad people or anything, those are just a couple of things that I would like clarified.



I'm going to assume that by inherent sin, you're referring also to original sin. I'm going to post a few links to some articles in the Catholic encyclopedia. Original sin and the Trinity are two subjects that I know very little about. I know what they are, but aside from that I can't tell you any reasons for why the Church believes in them. The first link is to Original Sin, and the second will be to the Trinity. I wish I could help more than posting two links, but I simply don't know enough about the doctrine concerning these two subjects. Not to mention, these subjects are so complex, that even if I did know anything about them, I would probably butcher the explanation. The articles should answer both your questions(particulary your question about Original Sin).



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

Both the links go step by step in both providing scriptural and traditional proof, and also in answering established questions. I read through both, and they should help you. I know I could find smoe other sources if these don't help.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I also wasn't raised as a Catholic.

quote:I've also gone to a Catholic school for 14 years, so that is 14 years of religion classes.

So....being indoctrinated for 14 years on Catholic beliefs isn't considered being raised a Catholic ?

What would you call it, then ?

I'll get to the rest of your post soon, I hope. I haven't had much time on here lately.

The posts I have planned for this thread will take hours to compose, so...yeah.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So....being indoctrinated for 14 years on Catholic beliefs isn't considered being raised a Catholic ?

What would you call it, then ?

Well lets see. To be raised as a Catholic I think it would be necessary to a. be baptized; b. receive first communion; c. be confirmed; d. Go to Church on a regular basis; d. actually accept the relgion. Considering I did none of those during my grade school and high school days, I think it's safe to say that I wasn't raised Catholic.

Is this too hard for you to understand?

I'd say a quarter of the kids who go to my school aren't Catholic. It is very common for non-catholics to go to Catholic schools, mostly because they provide a superior education.

My one request is please avoid the questions are already answered. That will just save both you and I time.

[This message has been edited by napoleon_complex (edited 02-19-2006).]

Another common misconception about Catholicism is the Rosary. Most people think that sayinf the Rosary ammounts to vain and open repititous prayer, when that couldn't be further from the truth. However, saying the Rosary isn't about the actual words in the prayers, but rather, it's about the spiritual meditation that goes along with it. Saying ten hail marys and an our father is just an accompaniment to the meditation that is inherent with the Rosary. The entire purpose of the Rosary is for people, whether they be ignorant or learned, to conteplate the mysteries of their faith. It isn't about getting people to see you praying, and it definitely isn't about repetition, as the Rosary can work just as well if done in 10 minutes or two hours.

Another thing that most people(including Catholics) don't understand is the idea of indulgences. Most people probably learned that the selling of indulgences was the spark that caused the reformation, and this is entirely correct. However, it's just the selling of them, not the idea of indulgences that caused the outrage. Indulgences are still part of the Catholic faith(though it isn't doctorine, so you can be Catholic and not accept indulgences).

An indulgence is basically a remission of punishment caused by sin. It doesn't forgive the actual sin, but rather, it just forgives the guilt caused by that sin. It doesn't give you leverage to commit more sins, nor does it forgive future sins. For an indulgence to be given, you would have already had to of been forgiven for the actual sin. An indulgence is essentially penance, but with the added bonus of not having to do the temporal punishment(whether it be doing what the priest tells you to do on earth, or serving your time in purgatory). For an indulgence to work, you would have to actually believe in the idea of indulgences and you would have to do it with a good heart. You can't just receive an indulgence because it's easier than saying 15 hail marys and 10 our fathers. You must have a good heart. With all this said, indulgences are a very minor aspect of Catholicism, and like already mentioned, it isn't even doctorine.

A terribly misunderstood tenet of Catholicism is Purgatory. Since this is, like the Trinity and Original Sin, a very complex idea, so I'm going to use quotes and excerpts from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

"The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life."

This makes sense. If we look around, we see people committing different levels of sin, so it most definitely makes sense that people receive different punishments for those different sins. The entire concept of purgatory also coincides with the idea of praying for the dead. They're intertwined to the point that it's nearly impossible to believe in one without believing in the other.

Praying for the dead has Old Testament support:

"making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:43-46)"

There is also significant New Testament support.

"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."(Matthew 12:32)

St. Augustine says "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come"

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."(1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

Catholics believe this passage says that our minor sins are burned away, and thus we are saved. However, for these minor sins to be burned away, there must be an intermediate place between heaven and hell, and Catholics believe that place is purgatory. This quote says pretty clearly that every man's life will be tested and tried by God, and that if their life was good, then they'll go to heaven, and if their life was bad, then they'll go to hell. However, these people can still be saved.

There is also significant proof in Christian tradition, but that is incredibly long. Besides, I think the above quote should be proof enough as to why Catholics believe in purgatory.

Another doctrine disputed by protestants is that of petrine supremacy. I'm just going to post two bible passages which clearly show how and why Catholics can believe in the power of the pope.

The first is Matthew 16:17-19

"Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven"

This quote right here is the basis of the Church. Peter was the first pope, and Jesus told Peter that he was in control of "the keys of the kingdom of heaven". The part about whatever is bound on earth is also bound in heaven also shows why Catholics believe that the Church is so powerful. "In all countries the key is the symbol of authority. Thus, Christ's words are a promise that He will confer on Peter supreme power to govern the Church. Peter is to be His vicegerent, to rule in His place." This is why Catholics believe that the pope is God's representative on earth.

The second bible passage is John 21:15-17

"When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

16

He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."

17

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep. "

This quote should be pretty self explanatory. In this quote, Jesus is giving Peter absolute control over Jesus' flock. Just like in the Matthew verse, Jesus is singling out Peter and giving him complete control once Jesus leaves.

When you hear the Petrine Supremacy, it's referring to the idea that Peter was the first pope, and that ever successor after Peter was invested with the same power and authority that Jesus invested in Peter.

Finally, I would like to make one thing clear. I'm not here to debate the merits of Catholicism, I'm just trying to explain it. If you have a question or objection, fine, I'll try to explain the Catholic position, but if you continue disagree with that position, do be it. I'm not going to defend the religion and I'm not going to get into a theological pissing match.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So....being indoctrinated for 14 years on Catholic beliefs isn't considered being raised a Catholic ?

What would you call it, then ?

I go to a Catholic school, and more than a quarter of the students there are not Catholic. Usually their parents want them to receive a private education, and our school is the only private school around here. So, while they may learn about Catholicism, they never become Catholic.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Well lets see. To be raised as a Catholic I think it would be necessary to a. be baptized; b. receive first communion; c. be confirmed; d. Go to Church on a regular basis; d. actually accept the relgion. Considering I did none of those during my grade school and high school days, I think it's safe to say that I wasn't raised Catholic.

Is this too hard for you to understand?

I'd say a quarter of the kids who go to my school aren't Catholic. It is very common for non-catholics to go to Catholic schools, mostly because they provide a superior education.

My one request is please avoid the questions are already answered. That will just save both you and I time.



I didn't say you WERE a Catholic, I said you were RAISED a Catholic.

The definition of "raised" in the context of this conversation is:

"8A. To breed and care for to maturity: raise cattle. 8B. To bring up; rear: raise children."

You grew up studying Catholicism, so you were raised Catholic, IMO.

I'll get to the topic, I promise. This is just a bump.

Don't fucking tell me how I was raised. I know how I was raised, you don't you arrogant bitch. I had one religion class a day. That does not constitute being raised a Catholic, no matter how much you want it to. So give it a fucking rest.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Don't fucking tell me how I was raised. I know how I was raised, you don't you arrogant bitch. I had one religion class a day. That does not constitute being raised a Catholic, no matter how much you want it to. So give it a fucking rest.

It depends, she might be emo?

I have 10 years of being a proper Catholic under my belt, I go to church and everything! And a Catholic School. And it's true, lots of people don't believe any of it, we even have Mulsims in my school!

This is just being raised in a Catholic family though, I don't actually believe it.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Don't fucking tell me how I was raised. I know how I was raised, you don't you arrogant bitch. I had one religion class a day. That does not constitute being raised a Catholic, no matter how much you want it to. So give it a fucking rest.

I can vouch for napoleon_complex here - a lot of Catholic schools these days don't push dogma as hard as they used to. Many Catholics I know haven't really learned a lot about their faith from their schools. And besides, if he doesn't attend the Eucharist on Sundays [at least], and doesn't follow dogma, then he isn't Catholic. He couldn't call himself Catholic even if he wanted do - it's the rules.

You can't call somebody a Catholic just because they went to Catholic school. I used to be on an automotives course, but I'm no fucking mechanic.

quote:Originally posted by uncopyrightable:

I have 10 years of being a proper Catholic under my belt, I go to church and everything! And a Catholic School. And it's true, lots of people don't believe any of it, we even have Mulsims in my school!

This is just being raised in a Catholic family though, I don't actually believe it.



We have three muslim teachers(and their children) at our school. There is only one kid on our basketball team who is Catholic. Only about 90% of our school is Catholic(which is small compared to twenty, or even ten years ago).

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Well lets see. To be raised as a Catholic I think it would be necessary to a. be baptized; b. receive first communion; c. be confirmed; d. Go to Church on a regular basis; d. actually accept the relgion. Considering I did none of those during my grade school and high school days, I think it's safe to say that I wasn't raised Catholic.

Is this too hard for you to understand?

I'd say a quarter of the kids who go to my school aren't Catholic. It is very common for non-catholics to go to Catholic schools, mostly because they provide a superior education.

My one request is please avoid the questions are already answered. That will just save both you and I time.



I went to a catholic school for 8 years and I have to say I think public education is WAY better.

Well I'm taking into account that I lived in a poor part of a fairly large city when I was young. The local public schools were shit for me.

There is a public school in the Suburbs of Akron(Hudson), that is at least even academically with my Catholic High school.

I don't know where you live, but in my area, the four Catholic schools are all better than the area public schools, and it really isn't close.

I was baptised as a catholic.

But I have never taken communion, I've never even been to the church on occasions like christmas or easter, let alone sundays (eucharist?). Am I a catholic?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

She was immaculately conceived.

Wouldn't that make her God's daughter?

I've only ever heard that she concieved immaculately, not that she was immaculately concieved. Where did you find that? From that perverse heresiarch Aquinas? (may his soul forever burn)?

It wouldn't make her God's daughter, it would just make her free from original sin.

The Immaculate Conception has always referred to the Blessed Virgin Mary's birth.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



The posts I have planned for this thread will take hours to compose, so...yeah.

Why put yourself through so much just to argue a point you cant prove on the information vacuum that is the the internet? Looks like you really do believe you're a savior.

Why is Mary regarded above women when the Bible clearly indicates:

quote:Luke:

{1:28} And the angel came in unto her,

and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is]

with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

And to say that Mary was sinless is in no way logic. It is purely assumption and conjecture.

The Bible says in other portions that no person is without sin.

[This message has been edited by ArgonPlasma2000 (edited 02-28-2006).]

This thread looks so much like a mythology discussion. How religious people take this stuff seriously never ceases to amaze.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Why is Mary regarded above women when the Bible clearly indicates:

And to say that Mary was sinless is in no way logic. It is purely assumption and conjecture.

The Bible says in other portions that no person is without sin.



Did you miss the part before the bold? blessed art thou? That's why she is held in higher regard than other women, and also the fact that she gave birth to the son of God.

It also does make sense for people to be born without sin. The first humans would have been without sin(adam and eve story). The angels would have been born without sin as well.

Here is an excerpt from an article about the immaculate conception.

quote:"It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence."

It is supported scripturally.

Catholicism has to be one of the most retarded faiths that people in the west still hold...

saints, natural law, fire and brimstone and lashings of pedophile priest...

mmm, tasty!

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

It is supported scripturally.

I didnt read anything coming from the Bible...

And your article makes a HUGE assumption about just what grace was given. They have absolutely no ground to stand on to substantiate their claims.

But you didnt answer my prior question fully. If I am to follow your thought train, it leads me to believe that there are more women that Catholics should be worshipping (or doing whatever the hell they do) because Mary (sinless mother of Jesus... :rolleyes http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) is blessed among women. So who else do we worship? Eve perhaps? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

PS: Angels are not "born."

How dense are you?

Among women simply refers to womankind. She is blessed among women. Among the women on the planet, she is blessed.

I also find it hard to believe that you've never assumed anything while reading the bible. The bible doesn't exactly get specific with a lot of things, so assumption and logic must come into play if one is to fully understand the bible.

I didn't realize that Gabriel's meeting with Mary wasn't in the scriptures... Blessed art thou full of grace. What more could you want. It says pretty damn clearly that she is full of grace.

If you want more, you can shift your way through the Catholic Encyclopedia on the subject.



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Hey Napoleon, nice one there about the Immaculate Conception. Not one of the Catholics I asked knew Mary was Immaculately Concieved, and most didn't know the difference between the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth (and neither did I). I'm in Ireland btw.

Catholic priests generally discourage the laity from any advanced theological knowledge. All mass consists of is a ceremony and a chosen, set extract from the bible (these usually suck btw). All they want is to do their thing for 30 minutes, and get you to pony up. The figures are amazing. Every week, my two priest diocese earns from €3-4 k in collections. Then there are payoffs for baptisms, weddings, funerals etc. A priest can earn €50-€100 at each of these. Excellent money, I've often thought of going into it, but theres a seven year training period (though I do like reading old catholic histories, so it wouldn't be too bad.)

So basically, I think the CC is all about the money, and it's gotten worse since the Jesuits came into the picture.

quote:Originally posted by Issue313:

Catholic priests generally discourage the laity from any advanced theological knowledge. All mass consists of is a ceremony and a chosen, set extract from the bible (these usually suck btw). All they want is to do their thing for 30 minutes, and get you to pony up. The figures are amazing. Every week, my two priest diocese earns from €3-4 k in collections. Then there are payoffs for baptisms, weddings, funerals etc. A priest can earn €50-€100 at each of these. Excellent money, I've often thought of going into it, but theres a seven year training period (though I do like reading old catholic histories, so it wouldn't be too bad.)

So basically, I think the CC is all about the money, and it's gotten worse since the Jesuits came into the picture.

Actually, in the parish my parents belong to, almost all of the money goes to supporting an after-school program for kids, a food pantry, a soup kitchen, and the rest is a small percent that goes to the priests/church administration. Most priests take a vow of poverty, but not all.



What is it with people taking the Bible literally? Do they not realize it is a faith book, not a history book? The Bible is meant to be contextually interpreted. That is, read between the lines.

Argon: of course people make assumptions about faith. That's what faith is mainly about. Christian's have their Bible, and created the rest through interaction with their God. There's an essence of faith that relies on trust. You trust your God to provide. You trust that He knows better and, whether or not you like what He's done, he's got a plan for everything. Until you accept that, you'll never be able to accept the existence of a God.

bump

Thank you...I will try and post soon.

Bump.

I have the first half of my post done, Napoleon...I told you it was going to be a long one. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I have the first half of my post done, Napoleon...I told you it was going to be a long one. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Why waste your time?

Burn, witch, burn!