View Full Version : A christian opinion
Xiao Mei
2006-02-27, 15:31
I was brought up catholic, but I realised it was all hokey and now I'm agnostic.
Anyway, there's this thread in SG about this guy who got his girlfriend pregnant and of course it all turned into a big abortion debate.
I'm just wondering, does anyone really think god would want a child to live a miserable, unloved life on Earth? Do christians believe an aborted fetus has a soul and if so, wouldn't that soul go to heaven when the fetus died? Isn't heaven a lot better than Earth?
I'm really not trying to knock people's beliefs here, I just want to know what everyone's thoughts are.
I've just seen so many unwanted, unloved kids in my life and I couldn't help thinking it would've been better for them to have just bypassed their whole sad life and gone straight to god.
I think the idea that god considers every life to be "sacred" is not well though out, I mean does God not kill with impunity?
Adrenochrome
2006-02-27, 15:42
You're trying to reason with people who believe a book that features a man talking to a burning bush is real...
Hardly anything in the bible makes sense. Deal with it.
Xiao Mei
2006-02-27, 16:36
I know it doesn't make sense!
I'm looking for what OTHER people think.
Elephantitis Man
2006-02-27, 19:38
quote:Originally posted by Xiao Mei:
I'm just wondering, does anyone really think god would want a child to live a miserable, unloved life on Earth? Do christians believe an aborted fetus has a soul and if so, wouldn't that soul go to heaven when the fetus died? Isn't heaven a lot better than Earth?
You can't argue that abortion is 'good for the child' in preventing the child from a 'miserable life', because in doing so you are acknowledging that you are actually destroying a life before it even has a chance to be lived. It's like mandatory execution of retarded children because they are doomed to be made fun of and have difficulty learning and understanding their entire life. Even that doesn't take away their right to live, their chance to experience joy.
What gives a person the right to say, "This person will only live miserably and unhappy. It's best we kill it before it even has a chance to prove us wrong"?
Furthermore, what is so terribly wrong with adoption? You can go to places like http://www.parentprofiles.com/ and find successful couple that would love to have children and are unable to concieve their own. Close friends to my family adopted two children, 1 from Honduras, 1 from here in the States. One was orphaned, the other had druggies for parents that never cared for her as a baby. Now they are both experiencing a wonderful life.
No child enters the world completely unwanted. It's just a matter of caring enough to find a person that wants it. Abortion benefits 1 person, you. Adoption benefits you, the couple, and the child. I guess it's just a matter of how selfish you are.
Xiao Mei
2006-02-28, 04:00
Everybody's selfish in some way.
I just think it would be a sweet deal, bypassing all of the trials of life and going straight to paradise. You say everyone has the right to experience joy, but as I understand it, you're better off in heaven than here.
ArgonPlasma2000
2006-02-28, 06:36
The child's soul goes to heaven. To be able to sin, you must first be able to understand right from wrong. Babies cant even talk, let alone discern between good and evil.
Elephantitis Man
2006-02-28, 06:47
quote:Originally posted by Xiao Mei:
Everybody's selfish in some way.
I just think it would be a sweet deal, bypassing all of the trials of life and going straight to paradise. You say everyone has the right to experience joy, but as I understand it, you're better off in heaven than here.
Wait...are you saying you wish you had been aborted?! http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)
ArgonPlasma2000
2006-02-28, 06:53
Why is it that you yearn only for the luxury but not for the service?
Xiao Mei
2006-02-28, 12:22
Are you asking why I want to have a good thing in the easiest way possible?! Do you live on planet Earth?
Anyway, I'm glad I wasn't aborted because I'm fortunate enough to have a good life. However, there are a lot of people in the world, I don't just mean in the US, who's lives are TERRIBLE. Why should they suffer? Why would God want them to?
Elephantitis Man
2006-02-28, 14:53
Xiao Mei, if your going to argue against abortion because 'some children live terrible lives', and ask 'Why would God want that', I must ask: What is wrong with killing the kids living terrible lives? If, following your train of thought, it's ok to kill a potential child because it may live a terrible life; is it not then our duty to put kids who are living terrible lives out of their misery???
quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:
Xiao Mei, if your going to argue against abortion because 'some children live terrible lives', and ask 'Why would God want that', I must ask: What is wrong with killing the kids living terrible lives? If, following your train of thought, it's ok to kill a potential child because it may live a terrible life; is it not then our duty to put kids who are living terrible lives out of their misery???
Why would God wan't 3/4 of planet earth dead?
great_sage=heaven
2006-02-28, 18:43
I think there is an obvious argument that illegal abortions will go on, whether it's legal or not. For that reason, and that it's simply not my place to enforce my opinion on it, I feel there needs to be a legal option for abortion if you think at all pragmaticly.
At the same time, I understand the argument that when abortion is made too convenient of an option, we do stand the risk of breeding a culture that lacks sexual responsibility.
Yes it sounds arrogant, but my views are correct, and anyone on either extreme end of the spectrum would do nothing but benefit by adopting them. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)
hyroglyphx
2006-02-28, 19:18
quote:Originally posted by Xiao Mei:
I was brought up catholic, but I realised it was all hokey and now I'm agnostic.
Anyway, there's this thread in SG about this guy who got his girlfriend pregnant and of course it all turned into a big abortion debate.
I'm just wondering, does anyone really think god would want a child to live a miserable, unloved life on Earth? Do christians believe an aborted fetus has a soul and if so, wouldn't that soul go to heaven when the fetus died? Isn't heaven a lot better than Earth?
I'm really not trying to knock people's beliefs here, I just want to know what everyone's thoughts are.
I've just seen so many unwanted, unloved kids in my life
First of all, you're assuming that the natural mother and father would be forced to care for the child. And so, you think that child will grow to be unloved. First of all, most kids who have kids change their tune when the child is with them. Secondly, what is the atrocity in adoption? There are countless people in the US, for instance, who can't bear children. They'd love to have the baby that you don't want. (I don't mean, you, I'm speaking generally). As it is, Americans have to import their children because we kill them almost as fast as make them. That's just sad. And if you know people that are unloved is just an excuse to bury one's problems in the dirt. Its completely selfish.
And your belief that, "isn't it just better to bypass all the bs and send them directly to God," doesn't fly. That's like saying, "Well, we should just kill prisoners and be done with it." Saying these things invalidates why we were placed here to begin with. If we were to go that far, we might just ask why not bypass physical existance altogether? Obviously there is a greater reson for existance and the evidence that we are even capable of formulating these thoughts is the evidence of such. If you kill your child with intent, you are a murderer in the eyes of God. If you don't like that fact, take it up with Him... I'm just the messenger.
hyroglyphx
2006-02-28, 19:27
quote:Originally posted by Xiao Mei:
Everybody's selfish in some way.
Is selfishness wrong?
If your answer is, "Well, everybody is selfish to a degee, so it makes it justifiable." If you were to say that, I'd say that you are partially right. Everyone is partially selfish, but it doesn't mean we recieve a get-out-of-jail-free card in a-hole department. If you were to justify selfishness, then you could never complain when someone is being selfish towards you... Ever. Does that make sense?
And if you think bypassing all the bs would be so cool, then put your money, and a gun, where your mouth is and lead us by example.
Elephantitis Man
2006-02-28, 20:44
quote:Originally posted by great_sage=heaven:
I think there is an obvious argument that illegal abortions will go on, whether it's legal or not. For that reason, and that it's simply not my place to enforce my opinion on it, I feel there needs to be a legal option for abortion if you think at all pragmaticly.
At the same time, I understand the argument that when abortion is made too convenient of an option, we do stand the risk of breeding a culture that lacks sexual responsibility.
Yeah, but the latter is what we're all coming too. Abortion, if necessary, should be an absolute last resort. Adoption, being a more beneficial option for society, should be considered as a healthier act for the mother, and is considered by many one of the most selfless and kind acts a woman can do.
But look at what we have today:
Girl: "I'm preggers!"
Boy: "OMGWTF!"
Girl: "LOL don't worry..."
Boy: "...wtf?"
Girl: "I getz an abortion!"
Boy: "Yay!"
2 months later:
Girl: "OMGWTF j00 gotz me preggers again!"
Boy: "OMGLOL"
Girl: "LOL, it's cool. Abortions tickle."
Boy: "ROFL"
and so on, and so on.
A girl in my highschool had had 9 abortions by her senior year.
If it has to be legal, it should at least have a lifetime limit for each person. C'mon. At somepoint and time, a girl just has to learn to stop fucking like a rabbit or get get her tubes tied.
http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)
uncopyrightable
2006-02-28, 21:02
Just because it's parents don't love it, it doesn't mean it's unloved.
Osiris89
2006-02-28, 22:33
quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:
Originally posted by Xiao Mei:
I'm just wondering, does anyone really think god would want a child to live a miserable, unloved life on Earth? Do christians believe an aborted fetus has a soul and if so, wouldn't that soul go to heaven when the fetus died? Isn't heaven a lot better than Earth?
You can't argue that abortion is 'good for the child' in preventing the child from a 'miserable life', because in doing so you are acknowledging that you are actually destroying a life before it even has a chance to be lived. It's like mandatory execution of retarded children because they are doomed to be made fun of and have difficulty learning and understanding their entire life. Even that doesn't take away their right to live, their chance to experience joy.
What gives a person the right to say, "This person will only live miserably and unhappy. It's best we kill it before it even has a chance to prove us wrong"?
Furthermore, what is so terribly wrong with adoption? You can go to places like http://www.parentprofiles.com/ and find successful couple that would love to have children and are unable to concieve their own. Close friends to my family adopted two children, 1 from Honduras, 1 from here in the States. One was orphaned, the other had druggies for parents that never cared for her as a baby. Now they are both experiencing a wonderful life.
No child enters the world completely unwanted. It's just a matter of caring enough to find a person that wants it. Abortion benefits 1 person, you. Adoption benefits you, the couple, and the child. I guess it's just a matter of how selfish you are.
I see it the other way around. Being born IS the most selfish thing to do. Your parents pay over 2 million dollars for education, home, food, clothing, toys for a baby/child/teen. By going straight to heaven (abortion), you are being selfless in giving your parents ultimate freedom. Even though this goes against the soul cycle: child > parent > sex > child > parent).
Mind you adoptions are great IF somebody wants your baby!
Xiuao Mei is right.
Elephantitis Man
2006-03-01, 01:51
quote:
I see it the other way around. Being born IS the most selfish thing to do. Your parents pay over 2 million dollars for education, home, food, clothing, toys for a baby/child/teen. By going straight to heaven (abortion), you are being selfless in giving your parents ultimate freedom. Even though this goes against the soul cycle: child > parent > sex > child > parent).
You're...you're joking, right?
Being born is selfish??? Not even small children and toddlers fully comprehend the meanings of selfishness, selflessness, honor, responsibility, and freedom...yet you to hold that against a damn fetus?!
Let us not forget how the fucking fetus came to be in the first place...by the mother jumping a bone.
So the fetus came into existance via the irresponsible and irrational acts of the mother (unless it was rape or incest, which actaully account for a relitavely low number of abortions), and yet this woman still has the gaul to blame the child for being selfish, even though it has no concept of 'selfishness' and wouldn't even exist if not for her poor decisions???
What an immature perspective of life... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 03-01-2006).]
Viraljimmy
2006-03-01, 13:20
Two points I'd like to make here:
1. If a baby is aborted, it's
soul must go to heaven. Would
that not be in the best interest
of the child?
What is the point of a short painful
life if it will probably end in
missing eternal life in heaven?
In that case the bible-thumpers
should be pushing abortions.
2. For the pro-choice:
Where do you draw the line at
killing babies, before birth ok,
after birth not?
Does passing through a couple inches
of pussy magically transform a
fetus into a person?
If your 2-year old is defective,
can you scramble his brain and
throw the corpse in the trash?
How can you support a government
that would not protect your life
when you were most helpless?
Seems like the secular humanists
should be anti-abortion.
Maybe you guys are totally ass-backwards?
More importantly, is Xiao Mei hot?
Mellow_Fellow
2006-03-02, 00:05
"you're not a human being untill you're in my phone book."
i don't believe embryos/foeutus' are the same as coherent adults, they are lumps of flesh that have the potential to become something different...
If i had been aborted at birth, why would i mid? I wouldn't even have existed!
abortion is a neccessity sometimes, the world is overcrowded enough.
and no killing babies, they aren't "real" humans, but they're much closer to a human than an embryo...
even an ant is closer to a human that an embryo.
human life has no intrinsic value, but i still love you all.
Xiao Mei
2006-03-02, 04:12
quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:
Yeah, but the latter is what we're all coming too. Abortion, if necessary, should be an absolute last resort. Adoption, being a more beneficial option for society, should be considered as a healthier act for the mother, and is considered by many one of the most selfless and kind acts a woman can do.
But look at what we have today:
Girl: "I'm preggers!"
Boy: "OMGWTF!"
Girl: "LOL don't worry..."
Boy: "...wtf?"
Girl: "I getz an abortion!"
Boy: "Yay!"
2 months later:
Girl: "OMGWTF j00 gotz me preggers again!"
Boy: "OMGLOL"
Girl: "LOL, it's cool. Abortions tickle."
Boy: "ROFL"
and so on, and so on.
A girl in my highschool had had 9 abortions by her senior year.
If it has to be legal, it should at least have a lifetime limit for each person. C'mon. At somepoint and time, a girl just has to learn to stop fucking like a rabbit or get get her tubes tied.
http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)
I agree with you here. It is totally awful when women just keep getting one abortion right after another. On the other hand.....would you really want that dumb skank in your senior year populating the Earth with her genetically deficient children in the first place?!
Adoption is a wonderful option, but a lot of people don't want to do that, even when they don't want their baby.
Osiris89
2006-03-02, 04:14
quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:
[B] You're...you're joking, right?
Being born is selfish??? Not even small children and toddlers fully comprehend the meanings of selfishness, selflessness, honor, responsibility, and freedom...yet you to hold that against a damn fetus?!
You asshole. That's not what I meant and I think you know it. What I meant was bringing up a child requires selflessness (ie. using all your resources and pool them for the child). And if we believe that the offspring has a soul, would it be born, even though it understands that its beginning is the form of a cancer? I'm not talking about the fetus, but the actual soul.
quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:
[B]
Let us not forget how the fucking fetus came to be in the first place...by the mother jumping a bone.
Now that I agree on. Society thinks too much of sex and we should stop that. Although when a "mistake" is born, it should be eradicated. This is called tolerance, if you make a mistake, you're pardoned. If you make another, well... too bad.
quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:
[B]
So the fetus came into existance via the irresponsible and irrational acts of the mother (unless it was rape or incest, which actaully account for a relitavely low number of abortions), and yet this woman still has the gaul to blame the child for being selfish, even though it has no concept of 'selfishness' and wouldn't even exist if not for her poor decisions???
My reasoning is based on an intelligent soul manifesting itself into a child.
quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:
[B]
What an immature perspective of life... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)
No, you just didn't read my post properly. Probably because I didn't explain myself carefully... although this is MY GOD CAN B...
[This message has been edited by Osiris89 (edited 03-02-2006).]
Xiao Mei
2006-03-02, 17:19
My whole point in this has been that worse things could happen than just going to Heaven.
Although, we Catholics believe unbaptized souls go to limbo.....
Romans 8:28 : ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHOR FOR GOOD
thats paraphrased, cause i forget the exact wording, but thats why i provided the verse, incase someone thinks i made the verse up.
Even if we cant see how the child would work for good, God does. Sometimes we dont see the big picture. Take a second to think bout seemingly strange ways people have touched your life, or that youv touched other peoples lives.
Heres an example: A child is born into an orphanage, the child is abused etc does drugs etc, until one day he meets a lady who is visiting the orphanage. They get to talking, and his life story motivates her to start a program to help him and others like him. Even if the boys life isnt made better in any way shape or form from her program, others might.
Other, every day scenarios probably arnt that obvious, but its an example...