Well my now ex gf is WAY to christian.. She thinks god is going to tell her what to do and when to do it... I think thats completely wrong in my mind.. I want to tell her that god gives us a life to live the way we want to live it... I need to be using saying from the bible to back me up (never read any of the bible).



anyway here's an example of how she lives

hey....i didn't want my last e-mail to be that hateful to you, but you really did hurt my feelings. more then once. anyway, hears a little better e-mail for you. read this if you don't truly think that God tells you what to do with every step of your life. Proverbs 3:5-6 states: trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

It doesn't say in half your ways, acknowledge God. it doesn't say if you feel like it, acknowledge Him. it says, in ALL of your ways. that means, don't do what you feel like without running it by God first. we are made in His image, to be of one likeness in mind. but, since you question everything, read it for yourself. then, since you don't really know whether or not you even want to do the whole Christian thing, try a different religion and tell me if you feel the same things or not. no other religion can make you feel alive inside because there is only one creator, and that's God. not buddha, not anything else. but hey, who am I to preach? i'm only half Christian, anyway, right?....you said you wanted to really read more on the Bible, so there's one verse for you to start with.

-alicia

She is so christian its sickening... when I was breaking up with her she told me she has heard the to christian speach many times before...

anyway she is trying to open a daycare (more than likely never happen) she broke down one day and said that she asked god that if she could find the money to buy this and that, that she was suposed to open a day care etc..



anyway her being extremely christian, she still slept with me many times... (but she was tight as hell, so I was one of few)

anyway I don't have them anymore but I posted pics and a video in S&A...

long story short my question is... I need some bible verses to tell her that god gives us a life to live the way we want to live it...



anyway any tips will help.

Man if this is true your relationship is doomed. The sex will stop , then so will everything else...I've seen it with my own eyes too. No sex, no head, no hand jobs...in the order, or maybe she'll just stop everything sexual...even kissing. Sex before marriage is a sin...or so they say.

I can't help you with the verses thing.

.

too long/didnt read

nah, but i did only read the first paragraph

yeah, as soon as you become a christian, god doesnt posses your mind and make you His robot. oh god, im spelling him with a capital h when im talking about you!!! help me!!!

anyway, you still have a free will after you turn. it sjust...he helps.

I know of some verses that say that God gave each person a life to live as they choose, but in all honestly, the context they're in won't help you.

get her to chant hare krishna

No, our relationship was fucked after we had sex... now its just gotten to the point where I told her how I felt..

I still want to be with her, because she is so fucking perfect except for her christian beliefs...

There are a few options...

Take away the mother and brother (murder) because thats whos leading her... But I couldn't do that.

She has been to all the other churches and has now only been going to one... so I was thinking maybe getting rid of the church. (fire)

Then there is changing her... and thats the first step I am trying...



Shes so perfect other than her beliefs shes worth doing somthing regretible to be with her....

quote:Originally posted by burymeag:

get her to chant hare krishna

WTF would that do?

(i'm not christian remember)

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

Man if this is true your relationship is doomed. The sex will stop , then so will everything else...I've seen it with my own eyes too. No sex, no head, no hand jobs...in the order, or maybe she'll just stop everything sexual...even kissing. Sex before marriage is a sin...or so they say.

I can't help you with the verses thing.

.I don't think you know what's going on, he had a whole bunch of threads about all this in S&A.

The best advice I can give you to tell her, camaro, is that it's her life to live. I am very Christian, but I still live my own life and don't expect God to make my choices for me. I don't know of any specific verses to use, but no where in the Bible does it say that we should rely only on God for everything. We should follow what He teaches, but that does not mean He will make our decisions for us.

There are plenty of verses BUT they will not help you much.

Let me explain it real simple for you.

If you could show her a verse that said "Thou shalt fuck thine Boyfriend til his ears doth pop"

IT STILL WOULDN'T MAKE ANY FUCKING DIFFERENCE.

'Christians ' are told and taught what verses mean and most are forever incapable of thinking or discerning the meanings for themselves.

Most of what mainstream christians believe isn't to be found in the bible so they will twist and rape the text til it says what they want to hear.

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 03-07-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by chubbyman25:

Originally posted by xoctopusx:

Man if this is true your relationship is doomed. The sex will stop , then so will everything else...I've seen it with my own eyes too. No sex, no head, no hand jobs...in the order, or maybe she'll just stop everything sexual...even kissing. Sex before marriage is a sin...or so they say.

I can't help you with the verses thing.

.I don't think you know what's going on, he had a whole bunch of threads about all this in S&A.

The best advice I can give you to tell her, camaro, is that it's her life to live. I am very Christian, but I still live my own life and don't expect God to make my choices for me. I don't know of any specific verses to use, but no where in the Bible does it say that we should rely only on God for everything. We should follow what He teaches, but that does not mean He will make our decisions for us.

I guess thats all there is to tell her... is that her life is hers to live the way she sees fit... But damn what a loss... I feel like kidnapping her (shes 20y/o) and just holding her captive until she straitens out lol



anyway she used this to prove that we should do what god "tells" us to do and when to do it...



Proverbs 3:5-6 states: trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

quote:Originally posted by camaro_racer88:

long story short my question is... I need some bible verses to tell her that god gives us a life to live the way we want to live it...

Why do you need bible verses when the one she gave you destroys itself, just like almost everything in the buy bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by camaro_racer88:

Proverbs 3:5-6 states: trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

In what way has god ever done so? How can one not lean on their own understanding, since it's our own human experience that makes up how we see everything? If I acknowledge god in all his ways, that just would make me very confused, since I'm not a god, only man. Thus the understanding would be lost on me in more than one way. And finally, god has given us freewill, therefore god cannot direct our path, we can only follow his! Brainwashed twat!

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

This site will help alot with her unbrainwashing of this terrible cult. And it was a cult once too!

-Grey Totse

^Cult name http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Grey:

In what way has god ever done so? How can one not lean on their own understanding, since it's our own human experience that makes up how we see everything? If I acknowledge god in all his ways, that just would make me very confused, since I'm not a god, only man. Thus the understanding would be lost on me in more than one way. And finally, god has given us freewill, therefore god cannot direct our path, we can only follow his! Brainwashed twat!

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html (http: //www.infi dels.org/l ibrary/mod ern/jim_me ritt/bible -contradic tions.html )

This site will help alot with her unbrainwashing of this terrible cult. And it was a cult once too!

-Grey Totse

^Cult name http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Awesome... I Like what you said... I will spend the rest of the night researching the hell out of it, and then I will set a date to talk to her in person and spend as long as it takes to open her eyes.

quote:Originally posted by camaro_racer88:

... I need some bible verses to tell her that god gives us a life to live the way we want to live it...

What?

I'm not religious, but if there is a god, of course that god gives you a life to live in the way you see fit. Whether that way is right, and whether the consequences will be to your liking, are necessary to consider also, however. Right?

Even if there is no god, living your life how you want is a sure recipe for misery, ironically. Much of life is meant to be spent doing things we don't want to do, making choices and sacrifices we don't want to make. The alternative is a hell you don't have to die to see.

What exactly is it you want here, what do you want from her?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjlWb4r9WCk

quote:Originally posted by Monkeychunks:

ht tp://www.y outube.com /watch?v=F jlWb4r9WCk (http: //www.yout ube.com/wa tch?v=FjlW b4r9WCk)

Call me dumb, but I don't get it... I have seen parts of the passion, but its "jesus" getting the shit beat out of him....

quote:Originally posted by camaro_racer88:

Call me dumb, but I don't get it... I have seen parts of the passion, but its "jesus" getting the shit beat out of him....





TTT

we see god in the passion of the christ yet it says....

John 1:18... "No man hath seen God at any time."



Thats why I'm not a christian because there are so many damn contradictions... it makes me sick how people even beleve it...

I guess its like magic... some people fall for the shit, and others know its fake...

Try this page to find the Bible quote you're looking for:

http://www.bibletopics.com/

quote: she still slept with me many times... (but she was tight as hell, so I was one of few)

You're probably right that you're one of few, but that's not necessarily why she's tight. http://tinyurl.com/nymgz

[This message has been edited by PetSematary (edited 03-07-2006).]

to my understanding you are about 17 - 18 years old, you do seem like the clingy type of person. Sometimes that can be a good things, such as your willingness to commit to one, but for this instance it isnt' necessarily a good thing. But like everyone has said, you're only young and there are plenty of other gals out there for you to meet.

I know that you'll probably be saying bullshit to me atm, but give it a few months and you will probably be with another chick and having that much fun with her you'll have no fucking idea that this post was made.

quote:Originally posted by camaro_racer88:

Call me dumb, but I don't get it... I have seen parts of the passion, but its "jesus" getting the shit beat out of him....





You gotsa turn your speakers on dude.

Replace her bible with a Karma Sutra book.

That won't help you in your situation...

the best way is compromise with her beliefs and attitudes, yet don't let yourself get overrun and overruled if she's like that...

talk to her, accept her beliefs and have Patience! don't push her yet suggest but don't be to persistent..

She believes God will guide her choices and help her in those things she is meant to do... so help her, encourage her with her child care centre, do your best to make her happy and it will well and truly pay off

..and who knows..your relationship may work out

[This message has been edited by mek777 (edited 03-07-2006).]

try looking thru the old testament,its pretty gruesome

This belongs in My God Can Beat the Shit Out of Your God and I'll be sending it there as soon as I'm done replying.

If you're looking for scripture, in either the Christian or Jewish verses, that says "do whatever the fuck you want," you're not going to find it. "Let do as thou wilt be the whole of the Law" is a verse from the Satanic bible, not part of the Abrahamaic traditions. As a Jew, I am bound by over 600 commandments (620 to be exact). It is a basic principle of my religion that God touches on nearly every facet of my life, from my diet to my clothing, to my work and my love life. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob demands obedience, service, respect, reverence, and love. Each of those commandments has implications of spiritual purity and mystical involvement with the Divine. Christianity only changes this paradigm but a little. According to the Pauline theology espoused by Christians, God's Law as revealed in the first five books of the Bible was essentially God's pronouncement of what a perfect world would look like. It was given to draw a distinction between the fragile failings of the human condition and what it would take to truly make God happy with us through our earthly actions. According to Christianity, we as humans are born in sin and cannot observe the totality of this perfect plan for our lives, and because we cannot we fall short of God's requirements and doom ourselves. (Romans 3:9-20)

Christians believe that salvation does not lie in how a person lives his life, rather the way a person lives his life lies in his salvation. The Law has no salvific efficacy in Christianity, because Paul says that humanity is incapable of fulfilling it. So instead faith must be the currency by which people are saved. Christians say that believing that Jesus died as a sacrifice to tip the scales of the Law back in favour of mankind is what gains you salvation. However, Paul has a warning. In Romans 6:15-18 he writes: "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

What does this mean for your Christian girl? It means that, according to the Christian Bible, her faith will engender in her a deeper desire to follow and uphold the Law. You ask what scriptures could be found to support the idea that she should live her life the way she wants to live it, and I responded that there aren't really any. However, in a sense, Christians believe that once you have signed on to Jesus being your sacrifice to God, the Holy Spirit will enter you and the way you want to live your life and the way God wants you to live your life will coincide. That doesn't mean all 620 commandments. Christians generally consider some of them draconian, and a good many deal in the building and maintainence of the Holy Temple which no longer exists, and cannot be fulfilled in any case. However, there are a great many commandments dealing in the way one lives his/her life reiterated in different parts of the Christian Gospels and Writings. Your friend is probably already familiar with those, probably moreso than I.

Anyways, there are far more knowledgeable people in the forum to which I'm sending this topic. They can probably fill in some of the blanks for you and some may even disagree with my assessments, limited as they necessarily are from my outsider's perspective. I do hope I was helpful.

-=Sephiroth=-

Seems that every relationship is like that when someone turnts super Christian.

Religion is bad for you in a lot of ways.

[This message has been edited by ohhi (edited 03-14-2006).]

Religion is one of those common interest things necessary for a successful, or at least for an easy, relationship. If you don't even have beliefs about the universe and the nature of life in common, what do you have? Religion deals in those fundamental questions. It's not the cause of dissention, it's merely a flag for detecting where such commonalities lie between two people. Hell, cross-political relationships are tough too, so are inter-cultural/ethnic/racial relationships. Don't confuse the symptoms with the cause. That's just a comfortable rationalisation that prevents you from really exploring where you stand with the other person, from really looking hard at them and (much more importantly and much more difficult) really looking at yourself.

long story short my question is... I need some bible verses to tell her that god gives us a life to live the way we want to live it...

You won't find any becase your girlfriend is right... So quit your sniffling and suck it up!

Alright, alright.... Seriously, there is none. Perhaps you should dust off that Bible in your closet and look up some Scripture yourself.

The whole argument of a free-will endowed to humans by a god must, by necessity, be an argument of god giving 'us a life to live the way we want to live it'. There would no free will if that were not the case.

That's not to say that one would remain a Christian if one follows any possible path, but even then, either you're the position that to be saved one requires to be free of mortal sin or you believe that merely accepting the Christ as your savior is enough to be saved; neither case require god 'tell you what to do and when to do it'.

He isn't looking for scriptural evidence that God gave us choices in life, he's looking for scriptural evidence for the idea that God would condone whatever choices we make. That's what's simply not there. Even if you believe salvation is obtained by faith and not by temporal choices, as Christians do, the balance of scripture still places certain obligations upon you to meet with God's approval. Furthermore, many Christian theologians would argue that this salvation by faith is not a passive process, that those who are saved give evidence to the same in their actions. As I said, they're supposed to "yearn" for the Law. A lacking of manifest improvements in obeying God's wishes (i.e. spiritual growth)in someone who claims to have been "saved" should, according to that logic, lead them to question the degree to which the belief that they are saved is self-deception and not truly the result of an epiphany.

I sincerely doubt that he was asking for scriptural arguments in favor of god condoning any action. That would include the actions which would render one un-Christian, which is illogical to begin with. My interpretation is that he is looking for ones that argue in favor of us being able to do things without needing to "run them by god first" (hence why he's given us a e-mail where his girlfriend has expressed such a position).

Free will would mean that god has given us a life where that (i.e. not needing to run everything by god) is a possibility, and more importantly, the fact that one is able to reach salvation by either being without mortal sin or by merely believing in Christ as our savior, also allows that as well - with the added "beneffit" of being saved.

ECCLESIASTICUS 14:20 chapter fifteen Freedom of choice http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I sincerely doubt that he was asking for scriptural arguments in favor of god condoning any action. That would include the actions which would render one un-Christian, which is illogical to begin with. My interpretation is that he is looking for ones that argue in favor of us being able to do things without needing to "run them by god first" (hence why he's given us a e-mail where his girlfriend has expressed such a position).I'm trying to analyse what he wants from her in the way of "living her life the way [he thinks] she wants to live it." To me, he seems to be indicating that this is something along the lines of abandoning this daycare idea of hers and going back to having lots of premarital sex with him and doing illegal drugs. Things that apparently he was cut off from when she became so 'sickeningly Christian.' That seems to me what he's truly looking for, even if he doesn't acknowledge it, and I'm just telling him there is nothing in Christian theology to support that.

quote:Free will would mean that god has given us a life where that (i.e. not needing to run everything by god) is a possibility, and more importantly, the fact that one is able to reach salvation by either being without mortal sin or by merely believing in Christ as our savior, also allows that as well - with the added "beneffit" of being saved.However, acording to the sola fide theology, the truly saved, i.e. those who have reached that epiphanic high and communicated their allegiance to God and the idea of Jesus being sacrificed for them, would look to God for guidance in all of their actions: that is a part of the law, after all, that being saved is supposed to inspire them to cleave to. That's where sola fide theology approaches paradox: doing good won't save you, but the saved will do good. Or, as it would be in this case: looking to God for guidance in every day life won't save you, but, once saved, you will look to God for guidance in every day life. This is similar to the idea built into Calvinist predestination theory: i.e. that no matter how much good you do, if you are not predestined for salvation, you won't be saved, but if you are predestined, you will exhibit it automatically by doing good.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rust:

I sincerely doubt that he was asking for scriptural arguments in favor of god condoning any action.

"long story short my question is... I need some bible verses to tell her that god gives us a life to live the way we want to live it..."

That's what he said.... It was clear what he meant. He thinks that if there is a God, He created us to have 'fun.'

Free will would mean that god has given us a life where that (i.e. not needing to run everything by god) is a possibility, and more importantly, the fact that one is able to reach salvation by either being without mortal sin or by merely believing in Christ as our savior, also allows that as well - with the added "beneffit" of being saved.

The purpose of freewill is to afford mankind the opportunity to things on their own. The short of it, is, to know that we as human beings will mess it up everytime when we step outside of the will of God if we continue to live in His 'permissive' will. After all, what meaning does love have without the choice to love or reject? Love means nothing without the option of denying it. Light means nothing without darkness as a contrast. Good means nothing without bad, and evil means nothing without righteousness to compare it to. This is the purpose of freewill. It is a critical lesson that we all must learn in order that we might know the absolute truth concerning God.

So, to answer his question: You can do whatever you want. You can go out kill someone if you want. But there is consequences. You can go out and commit adultery if you want, but there are consequences. He wants to live as he seems fit, without the consequences attached to them. But cause and effect exists, whether you believe in God or not. Essentially, the entire premise of his argument is flawed, only because it would affect him the same whether or not he believes in a Higher Power.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

I'm trying to analyse what he wants from her in the way of "living her life the way [he thinks] she wants to live it." To me, he seems to be indicating that this is something along the lines of abandoning this daycare idea of hers and going back to having lots of premarital sex with him and doing illegal drugs. Things that apparently he was cut off from when she became so 'sickeningly Christian.' That seems to me what he's truly looking for, even if he doesn't acknowledge it, and I'm just telling him there is nothing in Christian theology to support that.

And I agree that there isn't a specific verse that does that, however, the very fact of what salvation supposedly entails does allow for that, which is what I was pointing out.

quote:However, acording to the sola fide theology, the truly saved, i.e. those who have reached that epiphanic high and communicated their allegiance to God and the idea of Jesus being sacrificed for them, would look to God for guidance in all of their actions: that is a part of the law, after all, that being saved is supposed to inspire them to cleave to. That's where sola fide theology approaches paradox: doing good won't save you, but the saved will do good. Or, as it would be in this case: looking to God for guidance in every day life won't save you, but, once saved, you will look to God for guidance in every day life. This is similar to the idea built into Calvinist predestination theory: i.e. that no matter how much good you do, if you are not predestined for salvation, you won't be saved, but if you are predestined, you will exhibit it automatically by doing good.

That doesn't just approach paradox, it is a paradox - it is a logical inconsistency.

If you claim that deeds are not required for salvation, then by extension no deeds are required of those that are saved. You cannot claim that those saved must do good deeds; of course, you can claim there are good reasons to do so, but you cannot claim that it is a necessity - the moment you do, is the moment you contradict the original premise of deeds not being a requirement.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



That's what he said.... It was clear what he meant. He thinks that if there is a God, He created us to have 'fun.'



No. What he said was far from clear, and certainly not the literal equivalent of "verses that condone any action". He ask for verses that support the notion of "god gives us a life to live the way we want to live it". Literally, that is the concept of free-will. Anything else is your particular interpretation of what he meant. I myself interpreted it in a different manner.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

That doesn't just approach paradox, it is a paradox - it is a logical inconsistency.

If you claim that deeds are not required for salvation, then by extension no deeds are required of those that are saved. You cannot claim that those saved must do good deeds; of course, you can claim there are good reasons to do so, but you cannot claim that it is a necessity - the moment you do, is the moment you contradict the original premise of deeds not being a requirement.I said it approached paradox because it lacks that final element of mutual exclusivity: both the unsaved and the saved may do works in the law, but for the saved, who are "filled with the Holy Spirit," the works have an effect of engendering spiritual growth and they come automatically, not so for the unsaved. The theory is not that the saved "must" do works in the law, as if that were a condition of their salvation, it is merely that they will do works in the law as evidence of their salvation, that they literally can't help themselves.

Here's an analogy, perhaps not a good one, but it's what came to mind. If you take a normal clear light bulb and you screw it in and turn it on, it will shine white light. Let's say that this white light is the natural state of humanity: sinful, disregarding the law, doomed. Now lets say you have a blue coloured lens. The blue colour represents works in the law. We, as the unsaved, can take this blue lens and hold it up in front of the light bulb so that instead of casting a white light around the room it casts a blue light. If you follow the metaphor, this is us, as the unsaved, appearing pious by doing works in the law. The problem is, behind that lens our lightbulb is still just a normal light bulb casting white light...the blue lens just makes it appear different, so we're still doomed. However, if we were to unscrew the clear light bulb completely and replace it with a blue glass one, the light our bulb would be casting would be blue by nature. That represents the epiphany that the Christians call "being saved."

The reason this seems almost paradoxical is that we, as we look at other people who do works in the law, cannot tell just by their works if they are saved or not, since they both cast blue light outwardly. They could be people who don't really have faith but are trying at the law to fit in, or they could be people who have the deepest of relationships with the divine. The challenge Pauline theology presents to the Christians in this area is an introspective one. I.e. each individual Christian is the only one, save God, who knows if they are truly 'saved' or not. Thus Christianity provides a built-in incentive for the faithful to cleave to the fold: self improvement and constant reassurance of salvation.

The paradox is there, what you're doing is trying to navigate around it by saying that they are not required to do so, but that you're absolutely certain that they will do so... How you know that they will, when they cannot be required to do so, is beyond any explanation. Them being filled with the Holy Spirit explains nothing, since that cannot force them to do good acts, nor remove the possibility of doing bad ones, as that would refute free will. This being analogous to us being forced to use a blue light bulb in your analogy.

The possibility that those who are saved may choose to not do good acts must exist; if it does not exist, free will is refuted. The only resolution would be to restrict "salvation" only to those who do good acts, and therefore, good acts would become part of what salvation entails. There are no other options.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The paradox is there, what you're doing is trying to navigate around it by saying that they are not required to do so, but that you're absolutely certain that they will do so... How you know that they will, when they cannot be required to do so, is beyond any explanation. Them being filled with the Holy Spirit explains nothing, since that cannot force them to do good acts, nor remove the possibility of doing bad ones, as that would refute free will. This being analogous to us being forced to use a blue light bulb in your analogy.

The possibility that those who are saved may choose to not do good acts must exist; if it does not exist, free will is refuted. The only resolution would be to restrict "salvation" only to those who do good acts, and therefore, good acts would become part of what salvation entails. There are no other options.



I'm not navigating around anything. I simply don't insist on seeing a paradox where there is none. The idea that it encroaches on free will doesn't make it paradoxical either. Being saved is supposedly a "transformative experience." Anything transformative, from an external source at least, by definition changes you from your present course. Knowing the semantic inclinations of my opponent I should never have used the word "cause" in reference to the relationship between "the saved" and the Law in Christian tradition. Luther phrased it as "bringing about a yearning for the law." Yearn implies being extremely amicably inclined towards...not having total lack of choice. Not only must this contract with God be entered into by free will, but it's not totally negating of free will once entered into either. This functions in the same way theologically as God's hardening of the hearts of different biblical figures, only in reverse. It isn't a total surrender of control to this "force" of sorts, as evidenced by the fact that no Christian claims that those who are saved behave perfectly, but the idea is that it becomes harder to do wrong, and easier to do right. In a sense that encroaches on free will, but not totally, more like strong suggestion. Some even say that this is not just on choices with an obvious moral dimmension, but also that this "divine suggestion" can aid in deciding larger life issues: which brings us back full circle to the girlfriend's claims: this is the mechanism by which she means God is to be consulted in her life's choices. If she is saved, she will "feel" the right path to take in life.

I should mention that the Holy Spirit (or Ruach HaKodesh) is not a foreign concept to my religious beliefs either. It functions in much the same suggestive "guiding hand" way.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:



I'm not navigating around anything. I simply don't insist on seeing a paradox where there is none. The idea that it encroaches on free will doesn't make it paradoxical either. Being saved is supposedly a "transformative experience." Anything transformative, from an external source at least, by definition changes you from your present course. Knowing the semantic inclinations of my opponent I should never have used the word "cause" in reference to the relationship between "the saved" and the Law in Christian tradition. Luther phrased it as "bringing about a yearning for the law." Yearn implies being extremely amicably inclined towards...not having total lack of choice. Not only must this contract with God be entered into by free will, but it's not totally negating of free will once entered into either. This functions in the same way theologically as God's hardening of the hearts of different biblical figures, only in reverse. It isn't a total surrender of control to this "force" of sorts, as evidenced by the fact that no Christian claims that those who are saved behave perfectly, but the idea is that it becomes harder to do wrong, and easier to do right. In a sense that encroaches on free will, but not totally, more like strong suggestion. Some even say that this is not just on choices with an obvious moral dimmension, but also that this "divine suggestion" can aid in deciding larger life issues: which brings us back full circle to the girlfriend's claims: this is the mechanism by which she means God is to be consulted in her life's choices. If she is saved, she will "feel" the right path to take in life.

I should mention that the Holy Spirit (or Ruach HaKodesh) is not a foreign concept to my religious beliefs either. It functions in much the same suggestive "guiding hand" way.

If one can be saved and still retain the ability to do "evil" acts, then you essentially have no point.

Remember, I was mentioning the fact that salvation entails only a belief in god (depending on what side of the 'sola fide' fence one resides on of course) to show that his girlfriend could in fact 'abandon her daycare idea, go back to having lots of premarital sex with him and do illegal drugs', and still be saved.

Salvation, being defined in the bible as solely the belief in Christ as our savior, would in fact support the idea that she could do those things while still being saved. His request was indirectly fulfilled. I say indirectly because while there might not be a direct passage that reads "Go forth and fucketh thy boyfriend promiscuously", that would be allowed under the definition of a saved-Christian, which in turn is given. That would then support what you believe is his desire.

P.S. The "semantics" vilification is getting tired. Nowhere did I question any definition (well, beside that of "salvation" where a solid agreement of what salvation entails is needed). The lack of free will was completely implicit in what you said, given that if you were not arguing a lack of free will then my point would have been made - as we can see here. Also, the implicit encroachment of it as you yourself admit to.

Of course, now I'm arguing "semantics" of the "semantics"... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) That's how ridiculous that knee-jerk response is.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-10-2006).]

Isaiah 64:6 - "But we are all like an unclean thing, and all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags."

Translation: Nothing we do can save us. Nothing we do amounts to anything, in regards to the eternal state of our souls. Without mercy, and grace, we are doomed.

Matthew 16:27 - "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."

Translation: Those who are already SAVED (belief in Christ as their savior) will be rewarded for their service to the kingdom, while here on earth.

It is not a requirement to serve. It is something we tend to do, because the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and we are therefore motivated to do so.

We do so out of free will, however. The Holy Spirit does not FORCE us into service. We simply feel compelled to serve, as a result of the Holy Spirit's presence in our lives.

Matthew 6:2-4 - "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Translation: Our service to the Lord is derived from obedience, and a desire to be intimate with Him. Helping humanity out is a bonus, but it is certainly not the primary function of service (good works).

Conclusion: "Good works, as defined by the Bible, should be present in the life of whoever claims to be a spiritually reborn Christian. If they're not present, they're not real Christians. Good works are a necessary symptom or sign of someone who has truly been regenerated (saved) by the Holy spirit, but they are not a prerequisite to that regeneration.

According to God's standards, it isn't possible to be holy, righteous, discerning, wise or to perform what He considers to be good works until you are first regenerated through faith in Jesus Christ." Source (http://www.creationists.org/goodworks.html)

Rust, to clarify, a Christian is still capable if sinning.

Salvation does not equal perfection.

As long as a person is repentant of their sin, and does make an effort not to engage in sinful behaviors (relying on God to provide them with the strength to do so), they will remain in accordance with God's will.

Someone that says, "I will sin now, and repent later." does NOT know the heart of God, and is therefore not qualified to receive God's mercy, grace, and salvation.

A purposefully sinful person can always come back to the Lord, because He is a forgiving God, however not knowing the day or the hour that our last breath will escape us makes playing at such things nothing short of spiritual Russian Roulette.

Living in willful disobedience of God is precisely what a Christian is saved from...to revert back to a sinful life is to turn your back on God.

It is not something I have seen often, but it does happen.

Anyway, tangent. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by camaro_racer88:

I need to be using saying from the bible to back me up (never read any of the bible).

You want to use the Bible to prove her wrong, but you haven't read it...

Classic.

quote:Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

This verse tells us that God knows what's best for us, and if we truly follow Him, He will guide our lives in a way most beneficial to us, and to humanity.

I have seen Him do this in my life...when I least expected it. It wasn't a forced hand, either.

Several events took place that were far too coincidental to be merely accidental, and these events led me toward Him, instead of away from Him.

He has good things planned for us, and if we surrender our lives to Him, we will benefit tremendously.

quote:It doesn't say in half your ways, acknowledge God. it doesn't say if you feel like it, acknowledge Him. it says, in ALL of your ways. that means, don't do what you feel like without running it by God first. we are made in His image, to be of one likeness in mind. but, since you question everything, read it for yourself. then, since you don't really know whether or not you even want to do the whole Christian thing, try a different religion and tell me if you feel the same things or not. no other religion can make you feel alive inside because there is only one creator, and that's God. not buddha, not anything else. but hey, who am I to preach? i'm only half Christian, anyway, right?....you said you wanted to really read more on the Bible, so there's one verse for you to start with.

-alicia

She is absolutely right.

I suspect you don't like it, because it means you'd have to change.

quote:anyway she is trying to open a daycare (more than likely never happen) she broke down one day and said that she asked god that if she could find the money to buy this and that, that she was suposed to open a day care etc..

If it is God's will, she will certainly have a daycare.

But she is wrong in laying out her expectations before considering God's will.

She WANTS to open a daycare. She didn't ask God to use her in whatever way He sees as most beneficial to herself and those around her.

Until she stops "wanting", she will never receive God's blessing.

I know it sounds terrible, but it's not. I am not going to take the time to explain why it isn't, either.

quote:anyway her being extremely christian, she still slept with me many times... (but she was tight as hell, so I was one of few)

Christians are humans, too, ya know.

That means they like sex just as much as anyone else does.

The key is restraint, and clearly she has none.

She will pay for it, and she will regret.

quote:anyway I don't have them anymore but I posted pics and a video in S&A...

You're such a stellar boyfriend !!

You were right to break up with her. She doesn't deserve you.

quote:long story short my question is... I need some bible verses to tell her that god gives us a life to live the way we want to live it...

As has already been said, you aren't going to find any, because they don't exist.

The whole point of Christianity is to abandon self. Living for God is the ultimate gift...God would never contradict Himself and say that it was ok for us to live any other way.

Sorry bud, but you're in the wrong here.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 03-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by camaro_racer88:

Then there is changing her... and thats the first step I am trying...

You do realize that if Christians are right, and you are wrong, what you are proposing is trying to drag her away from eternal life, just so you can have your dream girl, right ?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by camaro_racer88:

...there is only one creator, and that's God. not buddha, not anything else.

I stopped right there. Your ex is a fucking moron, buddhism is not a religion, nor is Buddha a god, and he never claimed to be. Buddhism is a philosophy. Just stop talking to her.

tell her that the path of the rightouess man is beset on all sides by the enequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men, blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will sheppard the weak through the valley of darkness for he is tryly his brothers keeper and the finder of lost children and you shall strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, against those who attempt to poison and destroy your brothers, and you will know my name is the Lord, when I lay my vengance upon thee.

quote:Originally posted by DawnofBattle:

tell her that the path of the rightouess man is beset on all sides by the enequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men, blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will sheppard the weak through the valley of darkness for he is tryly his brothers keeper and the finder of lost children and you shall strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, against those who attempt to poison and destroy your brothers, and you will know my name is the Lord, when I lay my vengance upon thee.



I love that movie...

quote:Originally posted by camaro_racer88:

Well my now ex gf is WAY to christian.. She thinks god is going to tell her what to do and when to do it... I think thats completely wrong in my mind.. I want to tell her that god gives us a life to live the way we want to live it... I need to be using saying from the bible to back me up (never read any of the bible).



anyway here's an example of how she lives

hey....i didn't want my last e-mail to be that hateful to you, but you really did hurt my feelings. more then once. anyway, hears a little better e-mail for you. read this if you don't truly think that God tells you what to do with every step of your life. Proverbs 3:5-6 states: trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

It doesn't say in half your ways, acknowledge God. it doesn't say if you feel like it, acknowledge Him. it says, in ALL of your ways. that means, don't do what you feel like without running it by God first. we are made in His image, to be of one likeness in mind. but, since you question everything, read it for yourself. then, since you don't really know whether or not you even want to do the whole Christian thing, try a different religion and tell me if you feel the same things or not. no other religion can make you feel alive inside because there is only one creator, and that's God. not buddha, not anything else. but hey, who am I to preach? i'm only half Christian, anyway, right?....you said you wanted to really read more on the Bible, so there's one verse for you to start with.

-alicia

She is so christian its sickening... when I was breaking up with her she told me she has heard the to christian speach many times before...

anyway she is trying to open a daycare (more than likely never happen) she broke down one day and said that she asked god that if she could find the money to buy this and that, that she was suposed to open a day care etc..



anyway her being extremely christian, she still slept with me many times... (but she was tight as hell, so I was one of few)

anyway I don't have them anymore but I posted pics and a video in S&A...

long story short my question is... I need some bible verses to tell her that god gives us a life to live the way we want to live it...



anyway any tips will help.

You Ex is INSANE... How can you hang around/ deal with people like that>?

Did you ever stop to think that mabey she is right, and you should listen to her with an open mind, instead of trying to destroy her beleifs?