Maybe it's because I'm on my period, and just a little emotional.. (not the point).

I'm just going to get straight to the point, and ask the question..

Why do [some of] yall hate christians?

The real believers love yall, and pray for yall. I'm not talking about sinners, I'm talking about religious people. Sinners, we interceede for.

Really, honestly. I can tolerate an unbeliever better than I can a religious person.

You know those who are hardest on us are religious people? People who profess to know Jesus as Lord.

If you say, what the BIBLE says, they try to tell you.. "Well, I don't THINK God meant it like that." All we do, is say what GOD said.. and they get offended, and try to argue it. That's the very reason I moved out of the house I was living in, with my family.

A servant isn't greater than the Master, but.. I guess, I want to know why yall [religious] people are so hard on us? I think I got my answer.. but proceed.

i can only speak for myself, I am an atheist, or agnostc, whatever you want to call it. i don't believe in the existance of a "god".

even if there exists somewhere in the universe a being with god-like powers, why would you want to worship it anyway?

what good does your belief in god do for real people here on earth?

i see religious belief as a delusion, a psychological phenomena that can be cured, when a person is shown facts about our existance, and its not all some big mystery.

also churches are very hierarchical, ther is the priest (he is the one that has knowlege about god, and he owns the church and runs it for "god") and then there are the followers/minions/customers whatever (they don't know as much about god, and they give money to the priest to tell them about it, and they do whatever the priest tells them)

the whole thing just smacks of a scam, also why are cults like scientology treated differently from this other cult which ALSo claims to cure people of their worries and psycological damage, they are ALL CULTS.

also, a religious person is a stupid person, and evangelical christians are the stupidest of the stupidest.

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

Hits it on the head!

The only reasons I have ever been able to think of for someone to literally believe the Bible:

1. They aren't intelligent or educated enough to understand the inherant inconsistancies.

2. For cowardice or an equal reason they are willing to actively delude themselves into believing it's true, because they hope it's true. It becomes a crutch, at best.

I don't truly hate these people (specific cases, sure, but not as a whole), I just can't respect them.

i don't hate the ones who are brought up like that, they can't help it, and they can usually break the conditioning, if it is explained to them exactly why what they are thinking is wrong and harmfull.

the ones i hate are the ones who have chosen to become christians, it's like they have chosen to shut themselves off, it is the mental equivalent of removing your own eyes.

also, later in life "converts" or the "braindead" or brainblind" they have actually had their minds bent so out of shape by the conditioning, that it is impossible to reason with them, they have something called a "faith" which they must "protect" from scrutiny, even their own scrutiny.

if your delusion is a crutch for you, keep it to yourself, it may be a crutch for you individually, but for a society it acts like a poison. for a healthy tolerant society religion must be kept at low, safe levels.

For one, it's the way that you so naturally deem everyone irreligious as a sinner.

I only hate the small percentage that want biblical law instated. This applies to all people who would want their religion imposed the population through law. Anyone else I dont know. I haven't met them and known them long enough to judge.

You don't know what God said unless either A) You think God wrote a book or B) He talks to you.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Why do [some of] yall hate christians?



I'm an atheist, but I don't hate Christians- I've known some who were outstanding people and good friends(along with every other variety.) It doesn't make any sense to "hate" people based upon religion, any more than to hate them based on skin color or geography. I think people need to be "sized-up" on a "case-by-case" basis, regardless of their religion, etc. By "make any sense", I mean in terms of their own self-interest (as well as everyone else's.) Why do some people so sweepingly hate Christians, Jews, Muslims, Blacks (whoever) even though they know virtually nothing about the vast majority of them? Because they have emotionally deviant personalities with serious psychological flaws (no matter what lofty positions they hold, how much money they make, and so on.) Unfortunately, hate's just a fact of life- part of the animal-evolved human condition as it (too often) translates to the highly-unnatural habitats of our plastic societies, it would seem.

APOLOGIES!

I just created a user name here, and I see I chose something awful close to a forum moderator... freaky (just thought it sounded good.) I'm off to work, I'll pick another user name and post tonight.

Because every religion fucks people over.

I see nothing redeeming of the ridiculous belief that is Christianity. It is illogical, and wholly immoral.

That being said, I personally don't hate Christians; I may like them in spite of their Christian beliefs.

also, in another thread on this forum, hellz shellz replied to my post with, and i quote

See how crafty the devil is?

This in any other context would be taken as evidence of a serious paranoid delusion.

Oh, so because i debunk the lies you hold so dear i'm in league with the "devil"? or is the "devil" acting through me?

you need serious deconditioning.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I see nothing redeeming of the ridiculous belief that is Christianity. It is illogical, and wholly immoral.

That being said, I personally don't hate Christians; I may like them in spite of their Christian beliefs.



Yes Christians are so stupid with their beliefs like

1.Love God Love man

2.Before you point out the speck in your neighbors eye get the log out of your own

3.Take care! Be on your gaurd against all kinds of greed; for ones life does not consist in the abundance of possessions

4.You are either against me or you are with me

5.But I say to you love your enemies and pray pray for those who persecute you.

Christianity is not immoral. Christianity well the teachings of jesus are all about brotherhood of mankind. And i am not even Christian i am Muslim.You all foolish to say that religion is illogical or foolish. MAybe if you think peace is immoral or compassion to your fellow man is foolish.

quote:Originally posted by fuckwar89:

Yes Christians are so stupid with their beliefs like...

That's all just pretty much the standard rhetoric of most religions... 99 percent of Christians blabber that stuff with a smirk and a wink, while doing whatever the hell they feel like, and endlessly rationalizing and "creatively interpreting" the ridiculously vague and mostly nonsensical homilies of the Bible to suit their whims. Must get a kick out of that kind of thing... I'd rather just say "I do as I please" and skip the silly lip service. They're not fooling anyone with half a brain with their rationalizing and excuses. Hypocracy to the Nth power is all it is.

OK, no more A_Lost_Cause, now reincarnated as Surf_Bum to avoid confusion, but my views on religion still aren't very positive whether I'm riding a tube er' not. More tonight when have time.

quote:Originally posted by fuckwar89:

Yes Christians are so stupid with their beliefs like

1.Love God Love man

2.Before you point out the speck in your neighbors eye get the log out of your own

3.Take care! Be on your gaurd against all kinds of greed; for ones life does not consist in the abundance of possessions

4.You are either against me or you are with me

5.But I say to you love your enemies and pray pray for those who persecute you.





Did I say those particular beliefs where stupid? No I did not. I didn't even utter the word "stupid", let alone specify which beliefs in Christianity are stupid. So, that being the case, I can safely ignore what you've just said as an irrelevant strawman that has no basis on what I've stated in this thread.



quote:

Christianity is not immoral. Christianity well the teachings of jesus are all about brotherhood of mankind. And i am not even Christian i am Muslim.You all foolish to say that religion is illogical or foolish. MAybe if you think peace is immoral or compassion to your fellow man is foolish.

The worship, veneration, and support of a being which not only deliberately allows for his creation to suffer here on earth, but also to suffer in the afterlife - when there is absolutely no need for that suffering to exist in the first place - is immoral. Does that mean they can't preach other things that are moral? No, it does not. The devil can help an old lady cross the street, it doesn't absolve him of being the devil.

Your reply was merely you jumping at conclusions, and not dealing with what I actually said.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-08-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The worship, veneration, and support of a being which not only deliberately allows for his creation to suffer here on earth, but also to suffer in the afterlife - when there is absolutely no need for that suffering to exist in the first place - is immoral. Does that mean they can't preach other things that are moral? No, it does not. The devil can help an old lady cross the street, it doesn't absolve him of being the devil.

Your reply was merely you jumping at conclusions, and not dealing with what I actually said.



I know a great many Christians who do follow those teachings. Now the reason religion exsists is to show that if we followed it there would be no problems like unfair treatment of the poor. God shows us the way and it is up to us to follow it. If we dont follow it then it causes problems. Besides you can call religion bad all day and complain, but what do you do personally that makes this world a better place? I know religious organizations do alot more than communist organizations are at the moment.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Maybe it's because I'm on my period, and just a little emotional.. (not the point).

I'm just going to get straight to the point, and ask the question..

Why do [some of] yall hate christians?

The real believers love yall, and pray for yall. I'm not talking about sinners, I'm talking about religious people. Sinners, we interceede for.

Really, honestly. I can tolerate an unbeliever better than I can a religious person.

You know those who are hardest on us are religious people? People who profess to know Jesus as Lord.

If you say, what the BIBLE says, they try to tell you.. "Well, I don't THINK God meant it like that." All we do, is say what GOD said.. and they get offended, and try to argue it. That's the very reason I moved out of the house I was living in, with my family.

A servant isn't greater than the Master, but.. I guess, I want to know why yall [religious] people are so hard on us? I think I got my answer.. but proceed.

I think you do know why they hate the notion of God. They want total immunity so they can live like hell without any consequences. But more than that, Shellz, most of these kids did believe in God at one time. They feel duped and they feel let down. So when they see someone like yourself full of joy in the Lord, it eats at them. They invested belief in God and they feel as though, if He does exist, then He didn't fulfil His promises. But they never seem to consider that perhaps it was them who didn't fulfil their promises. Instead of humility, they put on pride and wear it like a necklace. And so, they've fallen for the bait of, "Ye shall be as gods!"

None of this is new. "There is nothing new under the sun. All that's been said, has been said before. All that has been done, has been done before." There is nothing original, including their arguments about God. You just remember that you are planting a seed. These guys are going to remember everything you told them. Unfortunately, they may only come to believe under terrible circumstances, such as after the Rapture of His bride. Perhaps it is their destiny to be Tribulation Saints. Only time will tell. This knowledge is not for you and I to know, but only our Father in heaven. They may become mighty warriors for God during the Tribultaion, and may even become martyred on account of Jesus in the near future. Just let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and [one day] glorify your Father who is in heaven.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I think you do know why they hate the notion of God. They want total immunity so they can live like hell without any consequences.



I live a stoic and Spartan existance, douchebag. Even assuming the existance of God, not all of us are willing to be lambs without voice in the hands of executioners. And frankly, heaven sounds like it blows. A perpetual existance opiated in the presence of God, unable or too doped up for even curiosity? I'd choose hell just to make a point.

quote:Originally posted by fuckwar89:

I know a great many Christians who do follow those teachings. Now the reason religion exsists is to show that if we followed it there would be no problems like unfair treatment of the poor. God shows us the way and it is up to us to follow it. If we dont follow it then it causes problems. Besides you can call religion bad all day and complain, but what do you do personally that makes this world a better place? I know religious organizations do alot more than communist organizations are at the moment.



You're simply jumping to conclusions. Again, I never said that Christians do not preach things which are moral, that does not refute the inherent immoral and digusting beliefs they also hold, like the one I already mentioned. I also didn't say that all religions are bad, or that they didn't do any good. These are fabrications on your part.

Either reply to what I actually said or stop replying all together.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-09-2006).]

I'd choose hell just to make a point.

You certainly have that option available to you. I guess Shellz and I want to know why you view following God to be such a travesty. If God was infinitley more intelligent than we are, (this is for the sake of the argument. Pretend that you do believe in God), then why would that be so bad? What it sounds like to me, is that you think you are more intelligent than God, and so you're gonna do whatever you think is right. So is it that you are arrogant or confident?

quote:Originally posted by A_Lost_Cause:

Why do some people so sweepingly hate Christians, Jews, Muslims, Blacks (whoever) even though they know virtually nothing about the vast majority of them? Because they have emotionally deviant personalities with serious psychological flaws (no matter what lofty positions they hold, how much money they make, and so on.) Unfortunately, hate's just a fact of life- part of the animal-evolved human condition as it (too often) translates to the highly-unnatural habitats of our plastic societies, it would seem.

Emotional deviance has nothing to do with hate. People hate and discriminate against other groups of people in an attempt to create status in a social structure.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rust:

I also didn't say that all religions are bad, nor that they didn't do any good. These are fabrications; bold face lies on your part.

What was the bold face lie? I'm simply reporting what I see. My interpretation may be incorrect, but that wouldn't mean that I'm intentionally trying to trick you, or trick others.

What the fuck are you talking about? I wasn't replying to you. Maybe a Freudian Slip?

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I'd choose hell just to make a point.

You certainly have that option available to you. I guess Shellz and I want to know why you view following God to be such a travesty. If God was infinitley more intelligent than we are, (this is for the sake of the argument. Pretend that you do believe in God), then why would that be so bad? What it sounds like to me, is that you think you are more intelligent than God, and so you're gonna do whatever you think is right. So is it that you are arrogant or confident?



Neither, really. Lets assume God is real. In the twenty years I've been on this planet, he's given me no reason to believe in him, and mounting evidence that he's not real. Back in the day, he had no problem appearing to doubters to remind them he's real. I'm supposed to believe it's just a coincidence or whim that he hasn't done so since humans have developed enough to properly record it? If he's given me all I should need to hold faith, then he's done a really shitty job of it.

And of course I'm going to do what I think is right. Am I supposed to do what you think is right? Or a God who's given me no reason to even suspect he's real, save for the incessant wittnessings, mostly by idiots, none of whom have the slightest grasp of logic?

I'm not a coward. I'm not afraid of death. I'm not afraid of the hardships in life, to the point where I'll cling to a fairytale father figure who will wipe away my tears and tell me it'll be all better.

I could follow someone I respected. If God were real, I could be a Christian. If he were respectable. But he's not. He's capracious and malicious and so insecure in his omnipotent power that he demands I lessen myself. And God worthy of respect would wnat his follower to be all they can be. To follow Yahweh would entail me losing everything virtuous about myself, in favor of slave-like subjucation. If he truly were all-powerful, he could accept the respect of wolves in addition to the bahhing of lambs.

But he's not. He only wants lambs. He is only able to accept lambs. And so I find such ideological fault with him, that I could never follow, even if I believed he were real. If I were convinced of his reality, I would endeavor to life a life that would put the greatest of his lambs to shame, and laugh while he damned me, regardless of whatever virtue I held.

So you see, his existance, or lack therof, doesn't even mean anything to me. I will live as I will, regardless. But I am confident that he does not. There are so many flaws that have no answers that no omnipotent being could have inspired that bullshit.

This whole argument is just a dalliance to pass the time, and maybe to save some lambs from their own mewling wretchedness. But that desire has to come first from them.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I'd choose hell just to make a point.

You certainly have that option available to you. I guess Shellz and I want to know why you view following God to be such a travesty. If God was infinitley more intelligent than we are, (this is for the sake of the argument. Pretend that you do believe in God), then why would that be so bad? What it sounds like to me, is that you think you are more intelligent than God, and so you're gonna do whatever you think is right. So is it that you are arrogant or confident?



I don't understand your argument. You seem to imply that our intelligence is worthless. If an elementary school kid makes an intelligent observation that is logically solid, the "infinitely more" intelligent university professor will concede.

What you are basically saying is that "God is more intelligent, so I'll just agree with whatever he says" which renders your own intelligence useless, and actually rejecting one of God's gifts. If you are made in his image, you should use your own intelligence, and if God is the perfect being we imagine him to be, then your conclusions would agree with his rules.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I think you do know why they hate the notion of God. They want total immunity so they can live like hell without any consequences. But more than that, Shellz, most of these kids did believe in God at one time. They feel duped and they feel let down. So when they see someone like yourself full of joy in the Lord, it eats at them. They invested belief in God and they feel as though, if He does exist, then He didn't fulfil His promises. But they never seem to consider that perhaps it was them who didn't fulfil their promises. Instead of humility, they put on pride and wear it like a necklace. And so, they've fallen for the bait of, "Ye shall be as gods!"

It seems like you can't handle the notion of good, moral people who lead happy lives without believing in God. Spare us the humility lessons, when you make it a sport to look down upon atheists as lawless, spiritually inferior beings. Remove the balk from your eye first.

This paragraph is indicating of why one would hate christianity. It asserts that the only way we can be good is if there are consequences for when we are not. This is a blatant insult to human nature and it is very sad that people entertain such views.

Off topic, reading about HellzShellz's life, I can see why she came to be so brainwashed. It is interesting that the people who are out there to "witness" are mostly scarred people. It is pure arrogance that a 17 year old with that kind of life feels like she has it all figured out and presumes to preach to people who are older, have been educated and have had healthy relationships. I don't mean to be harsh and personal but when you are so revealing you should expect that people will often reach different conclusions from the ones you want them to.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I think you do know why they hate the notion of God. They want total immunity so they can live like hell without any consequences. But more than that, Shellz, most of these kids did believe in God at one time. They feel duped and they feel let down. So when they see someone like yourself full of joy in the Lord, it eats at them. They invested belief in God and they feel as though, if He does exist, then He didn't fulfil His promises. But they never seem to consider that perhaps it was them who didn't fulfil their promises. Instead of humility, they put on pride and wear it like a necklace. And so, they've fallen for the bait of, "Ye shall be as gods!"

None of this is new. "There is nothing new under the sun. All that's been said, has been said before. All that has been done, has been done before." There is nothing original, including their arguments about God. You just remember that you are planting a seed. These guys are going to remember everything you told them. Unfortunately, they may only come to believe under terrible circumstances, such as after the Rapture of His bride. Perhaps it is their destiny to be Tribulation Saints. Only time will tell. This knowledge is not for you and I to know, but only our Father in heaven. They may become mighty warriors for God during the Tribultaion, and may even become martyred on account of Jesus in the near future. Just let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and [one day] glorify your Father who is in heaven.



This. This is the reason I can;t stand religions. Listen to this self-righteous prick. watch as they wallow in sin and tell us , US ,that We sin. That WE are wrong for OUR pride.

As in EVERY post that HellzShellz makes ,never once has she ,or you, tried to help or save me. No you simply say ,"Oh well they can't understand ,MWAHAHAHA!"

You speak the speak ,but you ,in no way , walk the walk. I have never been inspired by one of yourposts ,never felt that maybe god acts through morons like this. I accept that god may be real ,but I choose not to care ,because if there is a god his goodness is proved to me by the fact he does not force me to believe. I know that a god worthy of worship will not require me to abase myself.

In any case ,I have to go now. But in closing .... WHY THE HELL DO YOU KEEP SAYING YALL ,IT'S Y'ALL!!

quote:Originally posted by Rust:



You're simply jumping to conclusions. Again, I never said that Christians do not preach things which are moral, that does not refute the inherent immoral and digusting beliefs they also hold, like the one I already mentioned. I also didn't say that all religions are bad, or that they didn't do any good. These are fabrications on your part.

Either reply to what I actually said or stop replying all together.



I am mearly arguing that there are plenty of redeeming qualities in religion you just seem to be ignoring them. There are negatives to but then these are not religions fault but the evils of man. In short relgion is good man corrupts it, as he does many things.

quote:Originally posted by fuckwar89:

I am mearly arguing that there are plenty of redeeming qualities in religion you just seem to be ignoring them. There are negatives to but then these are not religions fault but the evils of man. In short relgion is good man corrupts it, as he does many things.

1. That you think there are enough good qualities to redeem them, does not mean that I am ignoring those qualities. It means that I don't find them redeeming.

2. Chrisitanity has "negatives" inherent in its beliefs. The support, adoration and veneration of a being that needlesly allows evil to occur is a tenent of Christianity. That is not a matter of 'man corrupting the religion', but of the core beliefs of a religion being immoral and completely disgusting.

3. The fact that men can corrupt religion is not an argument in favor of religion, but an argument against it.

4. I was specifically dealing with Christianity, not religion in general. You brought religion in general, not me.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-09-2006).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Neither, really. Lets assume God is real. In the twenty years I've been on this planet, he's given me no reason to believe in him, and mounting evidence that he's not real.

What evidence would like? What would suffice? For Him to come down and shout, "Here I AM!"? If you were to believe in the concept of God, think for a moment why He doesn't just do that? Why are we here at all? Why not just forgo the whole thing of life on earth? Its the same reason why He doesn't tell us specific dates in prophecy. If you knew the exact moment He was going to accomplish something, you'd change your tune at the last second. That isn't real love. So, then, what proof would suffice for you?

Back in the day, he had no problem appearing to doubters to remind them he's real. I'm supposed to believe it's just a coincidence or whim that he hasn't done so since humans have developed enough to properly record it? If he's given me all I should need to hold faith, then he's done a really shitty job of it.

I asked these same questions when I was 20. The exact same ones, and I thought I was pretty slick too. The evidence is all around you, from looking at nature, from reading the Word, and from correlating your own experiences to both. Perhaps you've put up a barrier and made His non-existance a priori when it can be a decision of a posteriori vantage point.

And of course I'm going to do what I think is right. Am I supposed to do what you think is right?

This goes back to relative and absolute truth. If we are supposed to do what we each feel is right, then why are their laws dictating how we should live? Or how could you ever tell me that I'm wrong, or right? What basis would you have in telling me either? How could you even think anything is right without some absolute foundation?

Or a God who's given me no reason to even suspect he's real, save for the incessant wittnessings, mostly by idiots, none of whom have the slightest grasp of logic?

In your assessment, did it ever dawn on you that maybe its you that's the idiot? That isn't a jab at you, I'm just saying, why is your logic more valid than anyone else's? What makes you so special that we should value your truth, that has come up short all throughout history? Do you think you're unique??? Every thought that you have about God is a broken record. Its all been said and done before. And it amounted to nothing.

I'm not a coward. I'm not afraid of death. I'm not afraid of the hardships in life, to the point where I'll cling to a fairytale father figure who will wipe away my tears and tell me it'll be all better.

I wouldn't say that you would be a coward if you feared death. I think there is an innate fear of the unknown. Obviously, you have deduced that life is better than death, otherwise, why not just put the gun in your mouth right now? The real question is: What really constitutes life? That is what Christ asks to you.

He's capracious and malicious and so insecure in his omnipotent power that he demands I lessen myself.

What is capricious about God and His ways? If you would agree that everything He does is for a central purpose, then that isn't capricious at all. What is malicious at all about God? If we read His Law, assuming you could believe in absolutes, there is nothing malicious about serving justice. In fact, you could make a better case against Him by pointing out that His mercy is malicious against the mother who's child was murdered.



To follow Yahweh would entail me losing everything virtuous about myself, in favor of slave-like subjucation. If he truly were all-powerful, he could accept the respect of wolves in addition to the bahhing of lambs.

To me, you are the lamb. You follow the ways of the world, you follow the majority. Not me. My way is hard. Your way is easy and self-serving. But my way, His way, is fulfilling, and when the day is done, I'm the joy-filled one. You aren't ant-establishment, you follow the establishment to the letter. What virtue do you possess, that giving up would subject you to 'slave-like subjucation?'

But he's not. He only wants lambs. He is only able to accept lambs. And so I find such ideological fault with him, that I could never follow, even if I believed he were real. If I were convinced of his reality, I would endeavor to life a life that would put the greatest of his lambs to shame, and laugh while he damned me, regardless of whatever virtue I held.

If you want to align yourself with murderers and thieves who continue to agrue why they are valid in being murderers and thieves, then you care nothing about justice or any 'virtue' that is worth any respect. Why should anyone aspire to believe as you do? If so, be wholly about it, and embrace everything that is contrary to God.

So you see, his existance, or lack therof, doesn't even mean anything to me.

If it didn't mean anything to you, then you wouldn't have the compulsion to talk about Him as much as you do. Whether you want to believe it or not, there is something in you that compels you to come here and seek. That doesn't mean that it is God, specifically, but you want to know the truth, whatever it may be. You aren't just passing time. You are here engaged in the deep philosophy of it all. And that's a bueatiful thing. I'm not putting you down. I'm simply pointing out something that you may or may not have been consciously aware of. Embrace it, don't push it away.

I will live as I will, regardless. But I am confident that he does not. There are so many flaws that have no answers that no omnipotent being could have inspired that bullshit.

You may continue to live how ever you see fit, until you're card has been pulled. You maintain that right. But because you are here, talking day in and day out about the same topics, on that Day, you will have no excuse. You knew better, and He will know that.

The question, that you eluded, is what is so damn awful about doing what God says? Even supposing He doesn't exist, surely you could understand that the Word being preached is something virtuous, right? So what is so appauling about helping people, and truly loving them, not just getting whatever you can get out of it, selfishly?

Does this make sense to you?

quote:To me, you are the lamb. You follow the ways of the world, you follow the majority. Not me. My way is hard.



quote:

If you want to align yourself with murderers and thieves who continue to agrue why they are valid in being murderers and thieves, then you care nothing about justice or any 'virtue' that is worth any respect. Why should anyone aspire to believe as you do? If so, be wholly about it, and embrace everything that is contrary to God.



So it's hard for you to reject the life of murdering and thieving?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elfstone:

It seems like you can't handle the notion of good, moral people who lead happy lives without believing in God. Spare us the humility lessons, when you make it a sport to look down upon atheists as lawless, spiritually inferior beings.

I'm not looking down on you. I used to be the same way. I believe in an absolute truth. I don't have to apologize for that. And if you can philosophically prove otherwise, then I'll began to give credence to your beliefs. And, I do believe that you can be an atheist and still believe in morals. Its just ultimately very silly though. Ultimately, if you think that morality is a good thing, then who or what gets to decide them?

This is a blatant insult to human nature and it is very sad that people entertain such views.

What is the insult to human nature?

Off topic, reading about HellzShellz's life, I can see why she came to be so brainwashed. It is interesting that the people who are out there to "witness" are mostly scarred people. It is pure arrogance that a 17 year old with that kind of life feels like she has it all figured out and presumes to preach to people who are older, have been educated and have had healthy relationships. I don't mean to be harsh and personal but when you are so revealing you should expect that people will often reach different conclusions from the ones you want them to.

She's brainwashed because she believes in God? I guess MTV has all the answers, huh? No, no one here is a slave to the porn industry. No one here is a slave, who is brainwashed to this failed ideological premise that they maintain. None of you have answered my question. Whether or not there is a God, what is wrong with living the Christian life? What is so abominal about it?

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

So it's hard for you to reject the life of murdering and thieving?

Huh? What does that mean?

quote:What evidence would like? What would suffice? For Him to come down and shout, "Here I AM!"? If you were to believe in the concept of God, think for a moment why He doesn't just do that? Why are we here at all? Why not just forgo the whole thing of life on earth? Its the same reason why He doesn't tell us specific dates in prophecy. If you knew the exact moment He was going to accomplish something, you'd change your tune at the last second. That isn't real love. So, then, what proof would suffice for you?

A physical appearance would certainly suffice. And "faith" is a catch-22. You believe because there's no reason to believe?

quote:I asked these same questions when I was 20. The exact same ones, and I thought I was pretty slick too. The evidence is all around you, from looking at nature, from reading the Word, and from correlating your own experiences to both. Perhaps you've put up a barrier and made His non-existance a priori when it can be a decision of a posteriori vantage point.

Here comes the tired and old "I used to think just like you" argument. I'm interested in truth, jackass. My study of nature, as a physicist, leads me to believe that every iteral interpretation of the Bible is complete bunk. Your Word is self-contradictory, self-important bullshit. And that opinion comes from reading it.

quote:This goes back to relative and absolute truth. If we are supposed to do what we each feel is right, then why are their laws dictating how we should live? Or how could you ever tell me that I'm wrong, or right? What basis would you have in telling me either? How could you even think anything is right without some absolute foundation?

You're a child. I accept that there is no absolute truth, and that nothing I believe is inherantly correct. Yet, I will act on it, because to do otherwise would render my beliefs utterly inconsequentail, and to me, they are not. Logic, says your beliefs are flawed. We can argue premesis, but valid conclusions are inarguable. Of course, you know nothing of logic, and so ave no idea what I'm talking about.

quote:In your assessment, did it ever dawn on you that maybe its you that's the idiot? That isn't a jab at you, I'm just saying, why is your logic more valid than anyone else's? What makes you so special that we should value your truth, that has come up short all throughout history? Do you think you're unique??? Every thought that you have about God is a broken record. Its all been said and done before. And it amounted to nothing.

Oh, and out comes the accusation of arrogance. My logic is right because no argument has yet swayed it. Should evidence come to change my premesis, my conclusions will of necessity change. You don't even understand logic, how could yours be correct? And yes, I am sickeningly intelligent. It's a fact thats been beaten into me my entire life, when people just don't understand things I've grasped easily. It's not a point of arrogance, it's not evena gut feeling. It's an intellectual knowledge that I get things most people don't. I don't think I'm the most brilliant human in history, but when your reasoning and evidence is flawed or non-existant, I'm not terribly inclined to accept your conclusions.

quote:I wouldn't say that you would be a coward if you feared death. I think there is an innate fear of the unknown. Obviously, you have deduced that life is better than death, otherwise, why not just put the gun in your mouth right now? The real question is: What really constitutes life? That is what Christ asks to you.

What really constitutes life? Idiotic question. There are biological questions. If you want a 'why' reason, thats something everyone has to answer for themselves. I'm can accept that I'm alive by pure chance 4 billions years ago. I don't need my life to intrinsically be special to the cosmos. As for why I'm still alive? Curiosity, and the knowledge that death is a one-way door. I'll see whats on the other side when I'm done here.

quote:What is capricious about God and His ways? If you would agree that everything He does is for a central purpose, then that isn't capricious at all. What is malicious at all about God? If we read His Law, assuming you could believe in absolutes, there is nothing malicious about serving justice. In fact, you could make a better case against Him by pointing out that His mercy is malicious against the mother who's child was murdered.

His great central purpose. Which is what exactly? Oh, right. We humans can't know. He damns for asinine reasons, he causes suffering for no reason, except as a test that he puts us to. Rust covers this better than I could.

quote:To me, you are the lamb. You follow the ways of the world, you follow the majority. Not me. My way is hard. Your way is easy and self-serving. But my way, His way, is fulfilling, and when the day is done, I'm the joy-filled one. You aren't ant-establishment, you follow the establishment to the letter. What virtue do you possess, that giving up would subject you to 'slave-like subjucation?'

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Your way is hard? Hard to keep justifying your asinine beliefs to yourself, perhaps. Try, for just one day, to deal with the shit in your life yourself. To never once cry out to something greater than yourself to fix it, or to help you. It's hard. It's only redeeming value is that it's honest. Once again, you just try to turn an argument around on me, with no basis. I abhore the ways of the world. There's no honor in it. But there's no honor in what you do either. Just a perpetual life of weakness. My beliefs, or more accurately, my opinion towards those beliefs are the greatest source of strength I have. And it's mine. It comes from me, and it's mine. Your strength relies totally on God. Without him, you're nothing, so you'll strive for as long as you can delude yourself to keep that strength. And you'll lie to yourself to do it.

quote:If you want to align yourself with murderers and thieves who continue to agrue why they are valid in being murderers and thieves, then you care nothing about justice or any 'virtue' that is worth any respect. Why should anyone aspire to believe as you do? If so, be wholly about it, and embrace everything that is contrary to God.

You can't even comprehend an existance irrespective of God, can you? Why would I embrace everything contrary to him? That would still make me dependant on him. I will live as I will live. I don't murder. I don't steal. Because thats the social contract. Thats reciprical altruism.

quote:If it didn't mean anything to you, then you wouldn't have the compulsion to talk about Him as much as you do. Whether you want to believe it or not, there is something in you that compels you to come here and seek. That doesn't mean that it is God, specifically, but you want to know the truth, whatever it may be. You aren't just passing time. You are here engaged in the deep philosophy of it all. And that's a bueatiful thing. I'm not putting you down. I'm simply pointing out something that you may or may not have been consciously aware of. Embrace it, don't push it away.

I am interested in truth. But suffice it to say, if that comes from Judeo-Christian beliefs, I'm going to be very suprised. About as suprised as I'd be if the new superparticle collider disproves the existance of the graviton (which would mean the entire current theory on how gravity works would be wrong).

quote:The question, that you eluded, is what is so damn awful about doing what God says? Even supposing He doesn't exist, surely you could understand that the Word being preached is something virtuous, right? So what is so appauling about helping people, and truly loving them, not just getting whatever you can get out of it, selfishly?

Then be a Buddhist. Join the PeaceCorp. I don't just take what I can from people. You don't have to be a Christian to be a good person. And more power to them. But you can't be a Christian, and be in charge of your own life. You can't be strong on your own. You have to live in perpetual weakness.

Plus, Christianity is just lame. Seiously, aside from Catholicism, you guys have the worst mythology ever.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Whether or not there is a God, what is wrong with living the Christian life? What is so abominal about it?

Praising and adoring a being who deliberately allows suffering to exist, when that being has no need to do so, is immoral and disgusting. Let's start there...



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Huh? What does that mean?



What is so hard about the path you've chosen?

A mentally healthy person believing in christianity is like riding around in a wheelchair while you are perfectly healthy.

If you can't exist without believing in christianity then you have got serious mental issues.

I don't need a mental crutch to live my life.

I don't need some BS "omnipotent" father figure to tell me what my values are supposed to be.

If you are addicted to religion then I suggest seeing a shrink. But I am not going to be the one to decide anything for you.

Thats the whole point of this.

Im not gonna push my views on christian people, but I am going to tell them why I despise them.

"Some father figure shaking a stick at you from a thousand years ago!, saying....DO IT!, DO IT OR I'LL FUCKING SPANK YAH!"

</Dogma>

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



I'm not looking down on you. I used to be the same way. I believe in an absolute truth. I don't have to apologize for that. And if you can philosophically prove otherwise, then I'll began to give credence to your beliefs. And, I do believe that you can be an atheist and still believe in morals. Its just ultimately very silly though. Ultimately, if you think that morality is a good thing, then who or what gets to decide them?

We get to decide. Morality is a tool to help humanity be happier and it is only humanity that can decide what makes it happier. What is silly about that? What is silly is reading an ancient book written by clueless nomads to decide what is moral. Read http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html for a detailed review of what atheist morality is about.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



What is the insult to human nature?

The notion that we can't be good without the fear of punishment. How moral are you supposed to be if, removing God from the equation, you admit that you would be free to steal, murder etc?



quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



She's brainwashed because she believes in God? I guess MTV has all the answers, huh? No, no one here is a slave to the porn industry. No one here is a slave, who is brainwashed to this failed ideological premise that they maintain. None of you have answered my question. Whether or not there is a God, what is wrong with living the Christian life? What is so abominal about it?

What are you talking about? Who said anything about MTV and porn? MTV and porn are the enemies of christianity? I doubt that more atheists enjoy those things than christians.

HellzShellz is brainwashed because it is my opinion that she is a weak-minded person. She was gullible enough to have a thing with a man 30 years older than her, and when that blew up she was presented with a false dillema. Her previous manipulated existence or being manipulated anew by God. Never thought that a person can change on their own. So much for free will.

Living a christian life can take many forms, considering how many different interpretations of the bible you can arrive at. Following the basic teachings of Jesus is not bad at all, but you can arrive at many of them following secular logic as well. The abominal part starts when "christian life" wants to oppose science, or dictate a morality in sex!

A physical appearance would certainly suffice. And "faith" is a catch-22. You believe because there's no reason to believe?

Already told you, what would be the purpose of God physically revealing Himself. That point was made clear when He did reveal Himself and took the Jews out of Egypt. After all, a relatively small amount of time, none of that mattered to them. They were ready to fall back in line with the world. Its critical to all of us that we live by faith. You don't believe right now, (which is all apart of it) because you judge everything by what you can see? So, seeing things makes them real? I guess blind people are screwed. Hearing things makes things real? I guess the deaf are screwed too. Don't you think that its a bit presumptuous to assume that things only exist, if we prove them to be? As far as anyone could tell, germs existed long before anyone had a clue that they did. So, did they exist before we knew about them, or not? Now, for the sake of your argument, I used to say, "Nothing acts as a catalyst that would compel me to believe in a God. There is no reason for me to assume it." But we are asking the wrong questions.

Here comes the tired and old "I used to think just like you" argument.

It's not an argument, its the truth. I used to be a dejected, whiney, little piss ant too. I used the same reasoning you did, and thought of all of your arguments before you were out of grade school.



I'm interested in truth, jackass. My study of nature, as a physicist

Where are some of your dissertations. I'd like to read them.

You're a child. I accept that there is no absolute truth

You just used an absolute, which proves all the more that they exist. So why do you keep pushing them away? Is it because they run counter to what you would like to believe is truth?

and that nothing I believe is inherantly correct. Yet, I will act on it, because to do otherwise would render my beliefs utterly inconsequentail, and to me, they are not.

Obviously we all believe different things, but some of us are wrong. Can you be in Sweden and India, simultaneously? Obviously not, so there are absolutes and no amount of your opinions is going to mean anything in the end. Lets suppose we blindfolded ourselves and were asked to point to true North. Like it or not, if we didn't point exactly to North, we would be wrong, no matter how sure we were of our answers. Its the same principle. Therefore, there are absolutes no matter how much you want to pretend that there aren't.

Logic, says your beliefs are flawed. We can argue premesis, but valid conclusions are inarguable. Of course, you know nothing of logic, and so ave no idea what I'm talking about.

Oh, yes, I know nothing of logic yet you just refuted your own argument.

Oh, and out comes the accusation of arrogance.

yes, I am sickeningly intelligent. It's a fact thats been beaten into me my entire life, when people just don't understand things I've grasped easily.

How ever did I come to think that you might be arrogant?

What really constitutes life? Idiotic question. There are biological questions.

So, you think that the whole of life is merely biological? Think about that for a moment. Why do humans have an elevated sense of morality than even our, 'closest ancestors?' Why do we love? What is love? I'm not speaking about firing synapses in the brain. If you've reduced life to such meaninglessness, that's entirely up to, but don't deride someone else that can see the bigger picture.

His great central purpose. Which is what exactly? Oh, right. We humans can't know. He damns for asinine reasons, he causes suffering for no reason, except as a test that he puts us to. Rust covers this better than I could.

It may be disheartening to you that your life is ultimately subject to His life. But everything serves a purpose, whether theistic or atheistic. So why would the conglomerate of all life not have a purpose when everything in it, does exhibit a purpose?

Your way is hard? Hard to keep justifying your asinine beliefs to yourself, perhaps. Try, for just one day, to deal with the shit in your life yourself. To never once cry out to something greater than yourself to fix it, or to help you. It's hard.

Remember that argument you used against me? I was in your shoes, and I did try and live my life separate from God... Its only been about 4 years now that I actually started relying on my God. And even then I have to remind myself to do it. I still want to venture out on my own. I lived impulsively and recklessly. Listen, doing the right thing is not easy. Not even close. Doing whatever you want is supposed to be hard? Give me a break. What's hard apart your life? You have to wake up early to go to class? Oooohhhhh. Rough. I pity your hard life.

I abhore the ways of the world. There's no honor in it. But there's no honor in what you do either.

Since when? You're always defending it and excusing why its okay..... (even though there are no absolutes according to you, which gives you no conceivable justification to say that anyone else's beliefs are wrong).

My beliefs, or more accurately, my opinion towards those beliefs are the greatest source of strength I have. And it's mine. It comes from me, and it's mine.

Foolish boy! You were born! Everything you have was given to you. Everything! Whether you believe it was given to you by God, or it was passed on to you from your parents. It doesn't matter either way, because none of it was from your own devices.

Your strength relies totally on God. Without him, you're nothing.

Amen. I'd rather be honest with myself than think I'm an intellectual badass or think that everything I am, came from my own strength. You were born. No room for pride. That's why gay pride, white pride, black pride, or any other pride is ridiculous. They were born. Not hard. Doing whatever the hell you want.... Not hard. Eating humble pie every day of your life: Hard.

You can't even comprehend an existance irrespective of God, can you?

That's funny, because for 24 years I was adamant that He never existed.

Why would I embrace everything contrary to him? That would still make me dependant on him. I will live as I will live. I don't murder. I don't steal. Because thats the social contract. Thats reciprical altruism.

Reciprocal altruism = selfishness. "What can I get out of being nice to other people. That isn't altruistic at all. Not even close"

And comparing yourself to other people does not negate all that you've done wrong in your life. "I beat the crap out of an old lady this morning, but at least I didn't kill her. I must be good by default because Jeffrey Dahmer did kill people."

That's a fatal flaw, and its completely irrelevant to who you are and the things you've done.

I am interested in truth. But suffice it to say, if that comes from Judeo-Christian beliefs, I'm going to be very suprised.

Fair enough. I'm interested in truth and always have been. As well, I was thouroughly surprised to come to Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Then be a Buddhist. Too self-centered. Join the PeaceCorp. Perhaps I will.

I don't just take what I can from people. That's good. Its a start in the right direction.

You don't have to be a Christian to be a good person.

No, you don't. You can do good things and still not believe where 'goodness' comes from, or moreover, understand what is good, especially when you maintain that there are no absolutes.

But you can't be a Christian, and be in charge of your own life. You can't be strong on your own. You have to live in perpetual weakness.

Well, you can call yourself Christian til you're blue in the face. Doesn't make it so. Just like, suppose I was an Asian woman, but I swore up an down that I was a black man. Would it make me a black man if I called myself one? And yes, its important to devote your life to God to a Christian.

Plus, Christianity is just lame. Seiously, aside from Catholicism, you guys have the worst mythology ever.

Has to be better than Raelism....

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Has to be better than Raelism....

You finally said something I can agree with.

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

Emotional deviance has nothing to do with hate. People hate and discriminate against other groups of people in an attempt to create status in a social structure.

I suppose "emotional deviance" is a rather vague term (although I think it applies as I described such people) but certainly they're being irrational, and not to anyone's benefit including their own. I don't think hate is always unjustified... I don't blame a guy for hating the guts of a character who robs, beats, rapes, and murders someone close to them they didn't even know... I'd feel the same, and the hate is justified. But hating the members of entire groups of people based upon race, religion, etc. as I described it is illogical if only because it's overgeneralizing to a grossly erroneous degree. I'd call that emotionally deviant as such, but that's getting into hair-splitting. Unless you mean that to hate others different from us is a characteristic inherent to humans related to attaining reproductive supremacy, in which case, "I don't know" but I hope not.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I'd choose hell just to make a point.

You certainly have that option available to you. I guess Shellz and I want to know why you view following God to be such a travesty. If God was infinitley more intelligent than we are, (this is for the sake of the argument. Pretend that you do believe in God), then why would that be so bad? What it sounds like to me, is that you think you are more intelligent than God, and so you're gonna do whatever you think is right. So is it that you are arrogant or confident?



no, it's got nothing to do with god. god doesn't exist. it's just that i think truth is more important than faith.

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

no, it's got nothing to do with god. god doesn't exist. it's just that i think truth is more important than faith.

But everyone has faith in something. Why, and how, did 'faith' become a dirty word associated with religion? I think its safe to say that you have faith that you're gonna wake up in the morning. But you don't know that because everyone dies eventually. More than that, you have faith that what is being reported to you in, say, a science journal, is actual. But you don't know that for sure because you never personally studied it. You're basing that around faith. Aside from that, you don't even truly know that your parents love you or not. They may say it, but it might not be true. Maybe they just tell you that because its socially acceptable. Maybe your parents are really distraught that you turned out to be a little a-hole, and so, they don't really love you. You're just going on faith. And your girlfriend.... She doesn't love you. She just loves the way you devote attention to her. Maybe she's on her way out because your best friend treats her way better. The point is, we really don't know a whole lot about anything, for sure. We all exhibit faith in something. Its not a dirty word.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

But everyone has faith in something. Why, and how, did 'faith' become a dirty word...

...The point is, we really don't know a whole lot about anything, for sure. We all exhibit faith in something. Its not a dirty word.

Yea, I'd go along with that. I have a sneaking suspician that if a person lives in a city or heavily populated suburb, were they to be made aware of (either "magically" or via covert technological devices) all of the ongoings "behind closed doors" within, say, a half-mile radius of where they reside on any given night, their view of people and society in general might (and probably would) change dramatically. Depending on their mindset, the experience could be traumatic... they might become paranoid. As for people (including- and sometimes especially- relatives, girlfriends, etc.) Shakespeare said it best... to paraphrase & translate a bit, When people are involved in a situation, don't count on anything. I think we all delude ourselves, sometimes out of emotional necessity (e.g. a child born to asshole parents who couldn't give a damn less about the kid beyond the family situation appearing fine to the community, to take the flip-side of an example you gave.) I just think it's in people's best interest to try and see things the way they truly are, whether reality is pleasant, or not. That might mean the aforementioned kid after reaching a certain age, or it might mean deciding whether one can count on a god to help them, in this life or beyond.

quote:Originally posted by Surf_Bum:

I suppose "emotional deviance" is a rather vague term (although I think it applies as I described such people) but certainly they're being irrational, and not to anyone's benefit including their own. I don't think hate is always unjustified... I don't blame a guy for hating the guts of a character who robs, beats, rapes, and murders someone close to them they didn't even know... I'd feel the same, and the hate is justified. But hating the members of entire groups of people based upon race, religion, etc. as I described it is illogical if only because it's overgeneralizing to a grossly erroneous degree. I'd call that emotionally deviant as such, but that's getting into hair-splitting. Unless you mean that to hate others different from us is a characteristic inherent to humans related to attaining reproductive supremacy, in which case, "I don't know" but I hope not.



So you are A_Lost_Cause?

You still haven't proven why this is called emotional deviance instead of just plain old deviance. Race and class are used to create status in society. This is a construct of society and doesn't involve anything "emotional."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3702/is_200501/ai_n9520743

quote:

They also are vised to differentiate between normal and deviant behavior. Indeed, as Thoits (1990) argued, emotional deviance-the inability to of individuals to display the appropriate emotions for the situation-is interpreted as evidence of mental illness.



[This message has been edited by Atomical (edited 03-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

But everyone has faith in something. Why, and how, did 'faith' become a dirty word associated with religion? I think its safe to say that you have faith that you're gonna wake up in the morning. But you don't know that because everyone dies eventually. More than that, you have faith that what is being reported to you in, say, a science journal, is actual. But you don't know that for sure because you never personally studied it. You're basing that around faith. Aside from that, you don't even truly know that your parents love you or not. They may say it, but it might not be true. Maybe they just tell you that because its socially acceptable. Maybe your parents are really distraught that you turned out to be a little a-hole, and so, they don't really love you. You're just going on faith. And your girlfriend.... She doesn't love you. She just loves the way you devote attention to her. Maybe she's on her way out because your best friend treats her way better. The point is, we really don't know a whole lot about anything, for sure. We all exhibit faith in something. Its not a dirty word.



yes, but i have faith that i will get up tomorrow because, 1. I'm not ill 2. i don't live in a warzone 3. i'm only 21

you have faith in "god" because ..... 0

I have faith that my parents love me because, 1. They have always been there for me. 2. It is their biological imperative to ensure my wellbeing.

you have faith that you will see life after death because .............0 again



you have faith which relys on pure faith, I have faith which relies on the solid facts and evidence that can be deducted from the world around me.

I would rather rely for my faith on the immovable and eternal universe than some fleeting and deluded notion inside your brain.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Surf_Bum:

I noticed that you are from San Diego and enjoy triathlons. Have you ever participated in the Iron Frog?

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

yes, but i have faith that i will get up tomorrow because, 1. I'm not ill 2. i don't live in a warzone 3. i'm only 21

you have faith in "god" because ..... 0

I have faith that my parents love me because, 1. They have always been there for me. 2. It is their biological imperative to ensure my wellbeing.

you have faith that you will see life after death because .............0 again



you have faith which relys on pure faith, I have faith which relies on the solid facts and evidence that can be deducted from the world around me.

I would rather rely for my faith on the immovable and eternal universe than some fleeting and deluded notion inside your brain.

My point is that faith isn't a dirty word. Every person exhibits it. But my faith concerning God isn't irrational. I judge the world around what I see too, just not by sight alone. To me, there is so much order in the whole of life, its now very difficult for me to see how it was not the product of design. And maybe you would say, "it just appears to be desgined." But that is a lot of coincidence that doesn't add up. The odds alone present a really good case against random, capricious disorder creating order. Furthermore, the Word alone holds no weight. The Word is only applicable, if, you actually read it. Its also only applicable to circumstances and events that require the human to go through in order to correlate what the Author is trying to convey. It takes human experience in order to fully grasp it. As well, there is too much prophecy to merely be coincidence. The figures are astronomical. Lastly, I can't explain personal revelation to you, because its mine. I can't prove that portion to you. That was given to me, and though many others have their own revelations, theirs is unique. I didn't just flippantly come to the decision that I have over nothing. Alot of people would like to discredit me, and malign the Word of God, but how much do they really understand? There is logic to it, and there are also things that supersede mere logic. So, my faith concerning God has merit. But make no mistake about it: If anyone tells you that they can empirically prove the existence of God to you, then they don't know God or understand His purpose. I can't do it. They can't do it. Yes, much of it is quite taken on faith, but its far from blind. And if you really look at it for what its worth, it comes down to pride. People have the uncanny knack of inventing their own gods to suit their own personal agenda. Well, I can't do that anymore. In contrast, I know where all of you are coming from. I truly do. I understand all of your reasons for doubting, and some of you present very good cases. I've mulled over all of those questions. Believe me, the last thing I wanted to do was believe in God, and more specifically, Jesus.... But I did, and now that I understand, I'm never going back to wallowing in some putrid form of nihilism.

You just used an absolute, which proves all the more that they exist. So why do you keep pushing them away? Is it because they run counter to what you would like to believe is truth?

C'mon ,using rehearsed sophisms? That's a little low isn't it?

But I suppose your right ,there ARE absolutes.... Admittedly they are remarkably like laws of physics....



Obviously we all believe different things, but some of us are wrong. Can you be in Sweden and India, simultaneously?

Very well.... If you insist on using bad philosophy. You can be in both sweden and india at the same time. Suppose that we drug you ,kidnap you and place you in one of these locations while you still believe you are in th other. There are no clues as to differance, we have transplanted everything and it is exact. Now, we BELIEVE that we are in one place ,when in fact we are in another yes? Now are you saying this belief is wrong? That we feel we are in sweden yet in fact we are in india is true yes? To us we ARE in sweden. Yes?

To lead on from this. Suppose then that some people realize that we are actually in india ,they recognise that the place around them has been moved ,that they have been fooled. But still ,despite the protests of the ones who know where they are ,the other still believe that they are in sweden.... Would yuou agree a parrellel exists? Although admittedly favouring both sides...

anyway ,Gotta eat. Have A Nice Day.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

C'mon ,using rehearsed sophisms? That's a little low isn't it?

Why is that low? Its the truth.

But I suppose your right ,there ARE absolutes.... Admittedly they are remarkably like laws of physics....

That's right.....

Very well.... If you insist on using bad philosophy. You can be in both sweden and india at the same time. Suppose that we drug you ,kidnap you and place you in one of these locations while you still believe you are in th other. There are no clues as to differance, we have transplanted everything and it is exact. Now, we BELIEVE that we are in one place ,when in fact we are in another yes? Now are you saying this belief is wrong? That we feel we are in sweden yet in fact we are in india is true yes? To us we ARE in sweden. Yes?

What???? That doesn't mean that you aren't still in India. What does your belief have to do with actuality? Your point is totally moot, and just proves all the more how ridiculous relativity really is. Your belief means, zero, when it comes to truth. That's like saying, we couldn't prosecute the kidnappers because I 'thought' that I was still in Sweden. How do you think that would hold up in a court of law? Therefore, you can't be in two places simultaneously. The point still stands. To aggrandize my view, "Do some people have no need of water to survive?" No, we all need water to survive. No amount of 'belief' is going to change that. Truth is truth, irrespective of what we want it to be. Now, this isn't to say that there aren't things that are relative. Certainly there are. In America, I might be viewed as short, but to a Pygmy tribe, I'm very tall.... So my being tall or short is relative to where I am. But you can't be in two places at the same time. That is not physically possible for humans. Neither can you survive without water. Therefore, truth is absolute, but there are instances of relativity as well. But if there are any instances of absolutes, such as I just described, then not everything is relative.

if we were designed like you say, why aren't we trundling around on efficient little wheels instead of walking around on inefficient legs?

why were the light sensing cells in our retinas put in the wrong way round??????

why are we designed to be vulnerable to diseases?

it's called nature, learn about it.

"What does your belief have to do with actuality?"

you said it hyroglyphx, you said it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

if we were designed like you say, why aren't we trundling around on efficient little wheels instead of walking around on inefficient legs?

I don't know about you, but my legs are quite efficient. My legs are vastly more mobile that the best wheel ever. Its like the wings of an insect. The mobility of an insect makes the most sophisticated jet seem like a clumsy piece of metal. Imagine what military air superiority any given Air Force would have if they had even half the mobility that a fly does.

why were the light sensing cells in our retinas put in the wrong way round??????

Who says that its upside down? I know exactly what you're talking about, but its humans that says its upside down. When the brain sees the message, we see it rightside up, so either if it is upside down, judging by our human standard, means little... Especially when we can see rightside up.

why are we designed to be vulnerable to diseases?

Diseases have their function. Every naturalist knows that.

it's called nature, learn about it.

Yes, it is nature... But either nature appears to have a mind, or something above nature created nature not to self-destruct, and moreover, to work so efficiently.

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:



TOTSE database didn't insert your text for some reason, Atomical (refreshed, didn't help) so I'll just comment. Just thought A_Lost_Cause was kinda' catchy, but then I noticed a moderator in this column coincidentally has a very similar moniker, so I changed to avoid confusion. As it applies to me, I personally don't feel such, but some who fundamentally disagree with me on topics of religion, politics, and other might say that (true of us all, I suppose.)

RE emotional deviance, as I mentioned, it was a loosely used term, and since it's based upon statistics as is implied by "deviance" I'd have to drag out numbers to "prove" such, not to mention the additional necessity of wrestling with the vague nature of the abstraction "hate" etc. etc. That's one of the reasons I'm skeptical of fields such as psychology and sociology, but that's a different topic. Suffice it to say I don't know whether it's normal to "hate" people simply because some who share commonality with their physical appearance, ideals, etc. engage in reprehensible acts, have extreme or ridiculous views, or the like. I don't hate for such reasons, and many others don't. It doesn't make sense, and it contributes to a lot that's bad in this world.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Surf_Bum:

I noticed that you are from San Diego and enjoy triathlons. Have you ever participated in the Iron Frog?

I take it that's one of the Iron Man events around here (it's a pretty athletic culture in So CA... nice weather, ocean, beautiful land of various types.) But nah, I'm not enough of an athlete to handle that kind of thing... just the short stuff. When I was younger (I'm in my 40s now) a marathon alone would have pushed me to the limit... I don't think I ever could have handled those Iron Man events. Those people are natural athletes, and they train like maniacs on top of it. I just try to stay fit in my advancing years (one doesn't naturally stay trim and healthy as age takes hold.)

quote:Originally posted by Surf_Bum:

I take it that's one of the Iron Man events around here (it's a pretty athletic culture in So CA...

Yes it is. It always very high on the fitness magazines 'healthiest US citites.'

nice weather, ocean, beautiful land of various types.)

Part of me still wishes I lived there for those reasons, among others.

But nah, I'm not enough of an athlete to handle that kind of thing... just the short stuff. When I was younger (I'm in my 40s now) a marathon alone would have pushed me to the limit... I don't think I ever could have handled those Iron Man events. Those people are natural athletes, and they train like maniacs on top of it. I just try to stay fit in my advancing years (one doesn't naturally stay trim and healthy as age takes hold.)

Its a triathlon hosted by the Navy, but specifically the SEAL teams. I particpated one year, and my class actually was the only BUD/S class to ever win the team triathlon. (Where one guy swims, one guy runs, and another bikes).

Anyway, I love that city. I've lived many places, but that one was definately in the top two.

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

"What does your belief have to do with actuality?"

you said it hyroglyphx, you said it.

My belief, may, or may not deal with absolute truth. I 'believe' that it does, but I can't offer any empiricism concerning that. My argument is that there 'are' absolutes, and that relativistic theory doesn't hold much water if there is even one instance of an absolute.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I think you do know why they hate the notion of God. They want total immunity so they can live like hell without any consequences. But more than that, Shellz, most of these kids did believe in God at one time. They feel duped and they feel let down. So when they see someone like yourself full of joy in the Lord, it eats at them. They invested belief in God and they feel as though, if He does exist, then He didn't fulfil His promises. But they never seem to consider that perhaps it was them who didn't fulfil their promises. Instead of humility, they put on pride and wear it like a necklace. And so, they've fallen for the bait of, "Ye shall be as gods!"

None of this is new. "There is nothing new under the sun. All that's been said, has been said before. All that has been done, has been done before." There is nothing original, including their arguments about God. You just remember that you are planting a seed. These guys are going to remember everything you told them. Unfortunately, they may only come to believe under terrible circumstances, such as after the Rapture of His bride. Perhaps it is their destiny to be Tribulation Saints. Only time will tell. This knowledge is not for you and I to know, but only our Father in heaven. They may become mighty warriors for God during the Tribultaion, and may even become martyred on account of Jesus in the near future. Just let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and [one day] glorify your Father who is in heaven.



Honestly, Hyroglyphx, I blame the enemy for that. I've had a few people make the statement to me, "Well, I guess I'm just 'predestined' to go to Hell." The Word said, to be ready to answer questions. We have a responsibility to answer questions, their questions. Not PHILOSOPHY, or ARGUEMENTS, but statements. We should answer the sincere questions, of those of little faith, who claim to be without faith.

You know, God's will is all in His Word.

The Word says He's patient willing that NONE should perish but ALL should come to repentance. His Word said, "For God so Loved the WORLD, that he gave His only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting Life."

Today, I received revelation from God, while readinging Gal. 5&6 and Eph. 1&2.

God created every single one of us with a plan, and purpose. God said, "I KNOW THE PLANS I HAVE FOR YOU, PLANS TO PROSPER YOU.. AND GIVE YOU HOPE FOR A FUTURE.."

God gave us free will, AND a free gift too. See the 'predestined' wasn't talking about US alone.. He was talking about how He [God] had predestined, before the foundations of the World, that CHRIST would DIE for the WORLD, because He loved them. Paul said, IT'S A FREE GIFT.. Gift to who? THE WORLD.

He created me, and you, and everyone else, with a purpose, and a plan. You can say, He made you FOR the purpose and plan. He created you for a SPECIFIC purpose... He didn't create you and say, "Oh my, Do we have any more plans?" He created you, FOR the plan. God's will is in His Word...

God's will isn't that ANY should perish...

God isn't a liar. If His will isn't that ANY should perish, why doesn't he MAKE everyone accept HIS FREE GIFT? Because HE GAVE YOU FREE WILL. The ability to choose... You can choose the plans HE HAS for you, or your own. He predestined the WHOLE WORLD, to have a way to Him, through faith in Jesus Christ.

I think the reason why they hate the 'notion of God'.. is on account (I don't think, I know) of the enemy twisting God's Word, and teaching them, young, that GOD IS IN CONTROL. When God gave US dominion over this World, in the beginning with Adam, and restored it back to us, through Him. "Why did God let this happen if he loved me?" He didn't let that happen, the CHURCH did, because we're supposed to stand in the GAP, pick up the hedge and make intercession, but the church got away from that. God said, we're the salt of the World... Salt PERSERVES. We're to be pro-active in prayer, not pray when things get hard.. But we wait, UNTIL it happens before we pray. God said, "IF MY PEOPLE,who are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray, turn from their wicked ways, I WILL HEAR FROM HEAVEN AND HEAL THEIR LAND." God said, "MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER."

It doesn't mean you should go around cussing Christians because they didn't pray.. Because when you were following God, you should have had a close enough relationship with GOD, on your own, to where you were GROWING and not remaining a baby and having to DEPEND on someone else's faith for you. You could have prayed too, ahead of time, and it would have kept you from getting into the traps of the enemy.

Religion, isn't of God.. I've heard religious people say, "Oh the Devil, he's after me, sister, pray that I'm strong enough to withstand him.

1. God didn't tell you to be strong in your own might, He told you to be strong in HIM.

2. He gave you authority over the devil, and if you're not having the Devil on the run, he's got you on the run, You're not in faith. Be strong in CHRIST.

Religious people also seem to forget, that the theif [Satan] comes not but the steal, kill and destory, but GOD came that you may have LIFE, and have LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY" John 10:10.. God isn't a LIAR, but the Devil is, and the Father of lies at that.

Well said Shellz... Amen... We have a threefold enemy: The flesh, the world, and the spiritual powers and principalities that counter the Almighty. And you are absolutely right to say that the 'Church' [as a whole] has let down the world [also, as a whole]. And there is nothing that places a stumbling stone so big, as Christians who honor Jesus with their lips, but their hearts are from from Him. I'm guilty of this. It takes daily reminders and prayers to get back on track. There is so much that I could have done, that I did not do. There is so much that I'm supposed to be doing, yet I do not. And it is my responsibility to do as He says... I must be faithful in the little things, too. And what He says, is, "preach the gospel to the ends of the earth." As it was spoken about in Ezekiel, He will count us responsible for neglecting to preach His Word. It was the same for Jonah. As far as the Enemy goes... What can I say? He's so cunning. Just when I think I can't be surprised at his tactics, he never ceases to amaze me with his audacity. In any case, stay strong, stay in fellowship, stay in prayer, and stay in the Word. Well done good and faithful servant.

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

i can only speak for myself, I am an atheist, or agnostc, whatever you want to call it. i don't believe in the existance of a "god".

even if there exists somewhere in the universe a being with god-like powers, why would you want to worship it anyway?

what good does your belief in god do for real people here on earth?

i see religious belief as a delusion, a psychological phenomena that can be cured, when a person is shown facts about our existance, and its not all some big mystery.

also churches are very hierarchical, ther is the priest (he is the one that has knowlege about god, and he owns the church and runs it for "god") and then there are the followers/minions/customers whatever (they don't know as much about god, and they give money to the priest to tell them about it, and they do whatever the priest tells them)

the whole thing just smacks of a scam, also why are cults like scientology treated differently from this other cult which ALSo claims to cure people of their worries and psycological damage, they are ALL CULTS.

also, a religious person is a stupid person, and evangelical christians are the stupidest of the stupidest.



First off, ALL religions are put in place to explain the mystery of death and dieing. Heaven or hell? Reincarnation or rebirth?

Sounds to me mainly that you denounce all Christian and Catholic faith in particular.

And yes, a religious person is usually a dumbfuck who struggles to pay the mortage and goes home to let the TV wash over him.

Mmmmm Runaway Jury http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Surf_Bum:

I take it that's one of the Iron Man events around here (it's a pretty athletic culture in So CA... nice weather, ocean, beautiful land of various types.) But nah, I'm not enough of an athlete to handle that kind of thing... just the short stuff. When I was younger (I'm in my 40s now) a marathon alone would have pushed me to the limit... I don't think I ever could have handled those Iron Man events. Those people are natural athletes, and they train like maniacs on top of it. I just try to stay fit in my advancing years (one doesn't naturally stay trim and healthy as age takes hold.)



Done any ultras? The majority of those runners are over the hill.. :P

I did have a long post all though out in response ,however ,inattentiveness on my part has caused the post to be destroyed ... I'll do some ,forgive me for not doing the rest....

*Explodes*



What???? That doesn't mean that you aren't still in India. What does your belief have to do with actuality? Your point is totally moot, and just proves all the more how ridiculous relativity really is. Your belief means, zero, when it comes to truth.

I had a wonderful response to this ,but as it's destroyed I will merely point out your folly.



Therefore, truth is absolute, but there are instances of relativity as well. But if there are any instances of absolutes, such as I just described, then not everything is relative.



You cannot compare a physical truth with a moral "truth". There are Physical truths ,as you point out, but these bare little or not connection to moral truths. Moral relativsim ,and moral absolutism do not dispute physical facts ....

Fuck it ,after just wasting my time responding to that entire post and losing it,Im disheartened .... Im gonna go jerk off.....



Have a Nice Day

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:



Done any ultras? The majority of those runners are over the hill.. :P

I've read the older crowd are over-represented in the ultramarathons, but "over-the-hill" or not, it takes an extraordinary athlete to do that. I'm not a "gifted" athlete- overall, I'm probably only "above average"... I wouldn't say "good", let alone "outstanding" or "gifted". A marathon would push me to the limit... I'd say a person on the high-end of "average" or "above average" althletic potential could finish a marathon if they trained hard enough. "Ultras" are another matter entirely- I don't think "normal people" are physiologically equipped to run 50 or 100 miles, even if they train until they're blue in the face.

Likewise for SEAL BUD/S training as hyro mentioned, from what I've read. It takes an outstanding athlete with durability to handle that kind of thing, and the psychological demands require people with an uncanny capacity to endure stress, and an extreme determination. Like "Ultras", it's something that exceeds the inherent capabilities of "normal" people. Both take a rare breed.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Its a triathlon hosted by the Navy, but specifically the SEAL teams...

I wondered if it had something to do with the Coronado Island crowd... that seemed to ring a bell.

San Diego's nice, but the population's gone up over 2-fold during the last decade, it's become far more crowded, and the traffic now resembles that of Los Angeles. Due to Southern California coastal real estate prices have gone crazy, the cost of living has become ridiculous as well. Up until about 10 years ago, not only was it a great place to live- it was inexpensive as well- and it wasn't densely populated like Los Angeles with all the bad things that come with that. But all that's changed now.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

if we were designed like you say, why aren't we trundling around on efficient little wheels instead of walking around on inefficient legs?

I don't know about you, but my legs are quite efficient. My legs are vastly more mobile that the best wheel ever. Its like the wings of an insect. The mobility of an insect makes the most sophisticated jet seem like a clumsy piece of metal. Imagine what military air superiority any given Air Force would have if they had even half the mobility that a fly does.

why were the light sensing cells in our retinas put in the wrong way round??????

Who says that its upside down? I know exactly what you're talking about, but its humans that says its upside down. When the brain sees the message, we see it rightside up, so either if it is upside down, judging by our human standard, means little... Especially when we can see rightside up.

why are we designed to be vulnerable to diseases?

Diseases have their function. Every naturalist knows that.

it's called nature, learn about it.

Yes, it is nature... But either nature appears to have a mind, or something above nature created nature not to self-destruct, and moreover, to work so efficiently.



you don't have a clue what i'm talking about you fucking arse, i'm talking about the individual cells in our retinas, not the image of the light on the back of our eyes, I'm talking about the individual cells, if we shared a common ancestor to squids our light sensing cells would be the "right way up" with the nerve connectors leading out from the back of each individual cell, not with the nerves coming out of the front of the cells, blocking the light and making our eyes inefficient.

wheels are more efficient than legs you blatent idiot.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

The only reasons I have ever been able to think of for someone to literally believe the Bible:

1. They aren't intelligent or educated enough to understand the inherant inconsistancies.

2. For cowardice or an equal reason they are willing to actively delude themselves into believing it's true, because they hope it's true. It becomes a crutch, at best.

I don't truly hate these people (specific cases, sure, but not as a whole), I just can't respect them.

such bullshit.

confusing atheism/agnostism with intelligence is a mistake.

like it or not, there are intelligent people who believe in a higher being. plenty of theists have made important contributions to science and society.

you (and many like you) want to undermine the intelligence of theists and close off scientific study from those not willing to conform to this close-minded, secular humanist viewpoint.

i'm not the coward here.

"Then be a Buddhist. Too self-centered."

That comment right there shows me how hypocritical christians are. You have no grasp of other faiths. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BUDDHISM. SELF-CENTERED, NO THAT IS WHAT CHRISTIANS ARE. THEY THINK THEIR RELIGION IS THE RIGTH ONE WHEN THERE ARE OTHERS THAT ARE TWICE AS OLD.

PLAIN AND SIMPLE, RELIGION WAS CREATED TO CONTROL THE MASSES. NOTHING MORE.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

such bullshit.

confusing atheism/agnostism with intelligence is a mistake.

like it or not, there are intelligent people who believe in a higher being. plenty of theists have made important contributions to science and society.

you (and many like you) want to undermine the intelligence of theists and close off scientific study from those not willing to conform to this close-minded, secular humanist viewpoint.

i'm not the coward here.

Read what he said. He specifically said that of those believe the bible literally, and not of all theists. You can be a theist Christian who does not believe in that everything the bible states should be taken literally; hell, you can be a theist who believes the Christian/Hewbrew texts are fabricated bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Read what he said. He specifically said that of those believe the bible literally, and not of all theists. You can be a theist Christian who does not believe in that everything the bible states should be taken literally; hell, you can be a theist who believes the Christian/Hewbrew texts are fabricated bullshit.

Fair enough, but Surah has a history of religious intolerance.

Really? I haven't seen that at all. I've seen him express dislike for some specific religions, but not all of them, and certainly not to the extent you're trying to make it out to be.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Fair enough, but Surah has a history of religious intolerance.

I can get over-zealous in certain conversations, mostly when certain people do things like argue valid conclusions, when they should be arguing premesis, or some other blatant display of ignorance in logic.

As far as my opinions on religions, I dislike Christianity. Especially the literal interpretations, for the above-mentioned reasons. I dislike Islam more. I don't really care about ethnic religions like Judeaism and Hinduism, and I respect Buddhism, even if it's not for me.

Basically, it's ignorance I'm intolerant of, not any specific belief. Stupidity can't be helped, but ignorance is your own fault.