Who here actually thinks everything in the bible is 100% correct.

Those of you that actually believe that the bible is all true, then you should really go check out this book, "Misquoting Jesus", by Bart Ehrman.

everyone has their doubt about the bible, but i think it got bigger when the Da Vinci Code became big

I believe that the bible is 100% true, it's just that people can't truly comprehend it completely. Its a collection of the man's history and how he has gotten along with other men pretty much. The problem arises when you have these metaphysists who have to take everything literaly and have their head so far up their ass that common sence is ficticous to them. I mean shit if you are religous(assuming christian) and believe that God created us all, realize that He gave us the ability to reason, and reason that it was for a fucking reason, to remove your head from your ass and try to figure out what the bible really says. Yes, yes it contradicts itself like two thousand times or some shit but seriously people need to read between the lines sometimes. And if you are athiest, agnostic, or whatever then see it for the fact that it's the most influencial book ever.

Do you know how many people wrote the bible? Like 200 different fucking people. ITS FICTION. End of story.

Actually i think its closer to 40 people, and these 2000 condradictions? give me a few examples plz http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Here's some contradictions for starters.

http://tinyurl.com/3fwye http://tinyurl.com/ejq2r

A page that tries to explain contradiction:

http://tinyurl.com/gbf95

Trust me, there are many many contradictions. Regardless of how you look at it.

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

Actually i think its closer to 40 people, and these 2000 condradictions? give me a few examples plz http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Here's one:

'And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.'

1 Kings 7:23

The bible has given an erronous number for pi.

"Since the advent of the printing press and the accurate reproduction of texts, most people have assumed that when they read the New Testament they are reading an exact copy of Jesus's words or Saint Paul's writings. And yet, for almost fifteen hundred years these manuscripts were hand copied by scribes who were deeply influenced by the cultural, theological, and political disputes of their day. Both mistakes and intentional changes abound in the surviving manuscripts, making the original words difficult to reconstruct. For the first time, Ehrman reveals where and why these changes were made and how scholars go about reconstructing the original words of the New Testament as closely as possible."

Pulled from a website about the book, "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman.

http://www.krysstal.com/contradi.html The first part of Genisis 2:19 says, "Now the Lord God HAD formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air." So in that one man is made after the beasts both verses. Exodus 20:13 says "You shall not murder", not you shall not kill. Exodus 32:27 is talking about a war, and killing someone in a war is different than a murder. When Exodus 20:4 talks about the graven image, it means an idol, or something that you would make and then worship (like a statue of buda). I will keep studying these parts of the Bible and see what else i can come up with http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Rust, I don't have a King James version Bible, but my version says "He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring..." so it wasn't a perfect circle, just circular in shape http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by Dragonsthrone (edited 03-16-2006).]

If it wasn't a perfect circle, then the bible contains error, and has given the wrong value for pi.

Thank you.

What exactly do you think the value the Bible is giveing to pi is?

More proof that whoever wrote the bible didn't know WTF they were talking about. Oh and read my earlier post if you think that is the only thing.

Im not really sure why you think that the Bible is even giving a value of pi...

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

What exactly do you think the value the Bible is giveing to pi is?

1. If you admit that it wasn't a perfect circle, you have already admitted the bible contains error, which would make the value of pi irrelevant.

2. The value of pi it gives varies depending on which Christians are trying to defend the error... So why don't you tell me which one.

quote:m not really sure why you think that the Bible is even giving a value of pi...

How can you not be sure? It clearly gives the circumference and the diameter of a circular vessel.

By giving the diameter and the circumference, they are giving the value of pie indirectly, as circumference = pi*diameter.

It never says that it is a perfect circle, only that it is circuler in shape. Just because it says that it takes 30 cubits to get around it doesn't mean that it was a perfect circle.

Again, that's exactly the point. If it isn't a perfect circle, then it contains error (as it is not prefectly circular) and thus, the bible itself contains error.

You've proved my point exactly.

Apoxys, why don't you post some information provided by the author you are referring us to, so we actually have something to debate in this thread, which is the purpose of this forum ?

I am not about to go buy a book from some author I've never heard of just because you think I'm an idiot for believing that the Bible is the PERFECT word of God.

quote:Originally posted by Apoxyus:

Do you know how many people wrote the bible? Like 200 different fucking people. ITS FICTION. End of story.

It was 40 people. Did the author of your precious book point that out to you ?

Either he's ignorant (in which case, I have no use for his book), or you didn't read his book, because I am sure ANY person who finds themself qualified enuogh to attempt refuting the Bible's inerrancy would know something as simple as how many author's there were.

quote:Originally posted by Apoxyus:

"Since the advent of the printing press and the accurate reproduction of texts, most people have assumed that when they read the New Testament they are reading an exact copy of Jesus's words or Saint Paul's writings. And yet, for almost fifteen hundred years these manuscripts were hand copied by scribes who were deeply influenced by the cultural, theological, and political disputes of their day. Both mistakes and intentional changes abound in the surviving manuscripts, making the original words difficult to reconstruct. For the first time, Ehrman reveals where and why these changes were made and how scholars go about reconstructing the original words of the New Testament as closely as possible."

Pulled from a website about the book, "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman.



That was an opinion, not proof.

Also, if you are going to try and disprove something, you must first understand that something, and if the author of this book hasn't taken into account the SPIRITUAL and OMNIPOTENT factors involved in the preservation of the Bible, he is not even remotely capable of determining it's inerrancy.

quote:Originally posted by Apoxyus:

More proof that whoever wrote the bible didn't know WTF they were talking about. Oh and read my earlier post if you think that is the only thing.

Do you even know the measurement of PI, or how it is used in the Bible ?

Wuick, Google it before you look like a complete idiot, instead of just a kidiot.

So Digital how many people edited the work of those 40 authors?

Thanks Digital, and Rust, just because God is perfect, doesn't mean he has to have his priests make something perfectly circular. Back then without some of the modern technology we have today, it would be impossible to make it perfectly circular.

[This message has been edited by Dragonsthrone (edited 03-17-2006).]

yeah, i saw the daily show as well.

what he is saying that even though much of the new testament was written within 100 years of jesus' death, the earliest copies we have of those documents are about 1,600 years old. the documents often contradict each other.

it's not opinion that the scriptures have changed over time, it's observable fact. of course, i have to trust somebody that can read greek and latin, but i think i can do that when multiple biblical scholars all concur.

i'm not even going to talk about how warped the old testament stories must be by now.

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

Thanks Digital, and Rust, just because God is perfect, doesn't mean he has to have his priests make something perfectly circular. Back then without some of the modern technology we have today, it would be impossible to make it perfectly circular.



That refutes nothing, since that would still mean the bible contains error. Thus, the bible is not infallible according to you.

im roman catholic

that being said, there are two seemingly contradictor creation stories in Genesis. These creation narratives were recorded by Jewish editing traditions. an end note on the page where the second story begins (in the New American Bible) says "this section is chiefly concerned with the creation of the man. it is much older than the narrative of Genesis 1:1-2. Here, God is depicted as creating man before the rest of the creatures which are made for man's sake".

again, two different stories not to be taken literally. much of the narratives in the old testament need to be looked at contextually. there probably was never one original man named adam or woman. however, humans all did probably come from one common anscestor due to evolution (in spite of popular belief, the Catholic church advocates evolution or at least it used to under JPII, Benedict goes both ways(no pun intended).

also some of the contradictions which Heavens a Lie posted are are contradictory BUT they need to be looked at in the context of the text around them, especially those from the Old Testament. some of them just need to be read more carefully, for example

"Therefore MichAl the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

2 Sam 6:23"

"The five sons of MichEl the daughter of Saul, whom she bare for Adriel.

2 Sam 21:8"

this is clearly a different child of Saul since Saul had very many wives he undoubtedly made very many babies. so the odds that two of his children had similar names could have been very great.

again many of these contradictions are do exist. but they need to be examined in the context in which they were written. take a Catholic bible study and bring an open mind with you and it will be explained better since i still have homework to do. the exact facts of the Bible are not necessarily what matters though. what matters is the message.

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

What exactly do you think the value the Bible is giveing to pi is?

if this "circle" the bible describes has a 30 cubit circumfrence, and a 10 cubit diameter, pi is exactly 3.

surely god himself would know that pi is actually 3.14

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

It never says that it is a perfect circle, only that it is circuler in shape. Just because it says that it takes 30 cubits to get around it doesn't mean that it was a perfect circle.

you don't give diameters to anything other than perfect circles, irregular shapes cannot have a diameter.

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

you don't give diameters to anything other than perfect circles, irregular shapes cannot have a diameter.



Hey man, if god can create a round square... anything is possible.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



Hey man, if god can create a round square... anything is possible.

Good one, ohhi... I never considered it... I suppose a more general way of saying that is, "God can create true falsehoods, so indeed, through Him, anything is possible." Or alternately, maybe, "God (re)defines Truth with His every action and Word, so the falsehood lies in our previously inadequate understanding, which must be updated with each postulate He utters."

I'm not into ridiculing people's beliefs I disagree with, but there's an ocassional absurdity that deserves a nudge... notions concerning "absolute truth" existing within a hopelessly vague context strike me as so deserving.

Edited To Ask- Why is it that all varieties of text (books, articles, posts, etc. etc.) that can be roughly categorized as falling under "Religion" seem to contain the word "TRUTH"... in caps and otherwise... many times more often than any other category... and there's no other category with even close to as many different versions of each and all "TRUTH"s???



[This message has been edited by Surf_Bum (edited 03-17-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Here's one:

'And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.'

1 Kings 7:23

The bible has given an erronous number for pi.

PI in the Bible (https://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/005167.html)

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 03-17-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

So Digital how many people edited the work of those 40 authors?

Would you like the names of all the councils, smart ass ?

I believe you have just as much access to the internet search engines as I do.

I'd answer you, if I thought you really wanted to know. You seem to reside under the false assumption that I do not know myself, and therefore my posts to the OP are based on nothing more than opinion. Your rhetorical questions accomplish nothing.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, nigga !!! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

if this "circle" the bible describes has a 30 cubit circumfrence, and a 10 cubit diameter, pi is exactly 3.

surely god himself would know that pi is actually 3.14

According to whom ?

there seem to be varying opinions, as you can clearly see demonstrated throughout the history of recorded man HERE (http://mathforum.org/isaac/problems/pi2.html).

Stop trying to sound intelligent. It doesn't become you.

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

you don't give diameters to anything other than perfect circles, irregular shapes cannot have a diameter.

DIAMETER -

1. A straight line segment passing through the center of a figure, especially (NOT EXCLUSIVELY) of a circle or sphere, and terminating at the periphery.

2. The length of such a segment.

3. Thickness or width.

4. A unit for measuring the magnifying power of a microscope lens or telescope, equal to the number of times an object's linear dimensions are apparently increased. Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=diameter)

The author of the verse in 1 Kings gave dimensions of the "bath", including circumference, as well as the diameter (15 feet or 10 cubits, from rim to rim).

You're wrong. *feigns shock*

quote:Originally posted by Surf_Bum:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ohhi:

[b]I'm not into ridiculing people's beliefs I disagree with, but there's an ocassional absurdity that deserves a nudge... notions concerning "absolute truth" existing within a hopelessly vague context strike me as so deserving.

The fact that you find the Bible to be "vague" proves that you have not read it, and are therefore in no position to determine whether it is worthy of ridicule or not, based on it's absurdity.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

That refutes nothing, since that would still mean the bible contains error. Thus, the bible is not infallible according to you.That passage is a description, not a blue print. The vessel's perfection or lack thereof has no bearing on the accuracy of the description. If the vessel was not a perfect circle, the description would, and does quite obviously, reflect that fact. Jeremiah never claimed the vessel was a perfect circle, therefore the perfection of the vessel he describes is not at issue. The only way you could prove this passage to be in error would be to find the actual vessel in question and give a contradictory measurement of its dimensions.

[Edit: Tags.]

[This message has been edited by Sephiroth (edited 03-17-2006).]

Btw Rust, God didn't make the circle, he told people to make it, and humans aren't perfect.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Would you like the names of all the councils, smart ass ?

I believe you have just as much access to the internet search engines as I do.

I'd answer you, if I thought you really wanted to know. You seem to reside under the false assumption that I do not know myself, and therefore my posts to the OP are based on nothing more than opinion. Your rhetorical questions accomplish nothing.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, nigga !!! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)



What about all the "prphets" that "didn't make the cut"?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The fact that you find the Bible to be "vague" proves that you have not read it, and are therefore in no position to determine whether it is worthy of ridicule or not, based on it's absurdity.

Digital_Savior, given a gradeschool Christian education, it was compulsory that I read and become familiar with a fair portion of it. I haven't read it from "cover-to-cover", but that wouldn't mean anything (in particular) anyway... I read an autobiography last week in 2 evenings... that was longer than some highly-technical books used in classes I've taken that necessarily took an entire academic year to go through if it were to be done with understanding. Some people can comprehend things in short order that others just never see. Partly for those reasons, I've never really been impressed by people throwing "You've never read MY "... I mention "MY" because often when people say that, they also stipulate that it's imperative that it be THEIR version.

With those things in mind, consider one reason I disagree with your view, and please explain a few inconsistencies...

First, note that David Hume argued- sensibly, in my opinion- that (in a nutshell...) If there is a god with whom Man should concern himself, this god's [b]desires as they relate to Man should be clear to the average, intelligent person- meaning, a typical person "pulled off the street." If that's not the case- assuming that such a god exists at all- then Man shouldn't concern himself with this god anyway, because this god's desires are so incomprehensible to Man, that Man can't effectively understand this god (let alone abide by this god's will) anyway.

Digital_Savior, there are multitudes of Christian religions based on the same, or at least extremely similar Bibles, and the extent to which they fundamentally and completely disagree is mind-numbing. One group says "Abortion is flat-out murder", another says different... one practically says "Homosexuals are extremely evil in the eyes of God" while another says "Homosexuality is no big deal." Some are pacifists and say to obey God means they can't participate in war... most say it's one's duty under God to support their country's military. Some insist that women are subserviant to men in a marraige, others insist the partnership is equal. Do they agree on the mystical aspects? No. Satan and Hell? Some say it's a real entity and place, others say it's all metaphorical. Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve? Some say just Evolution expressed metaphorically, others say they were a "real" couple and place. The list goes on, and on, and on.

Considering how little Christians can agree upon- if that's not vague, I don't know what is.

We're not talking about a few minor subtleties "here-and-there"... we're talking about very specific, major questions, and the situation appears almost to a point where Christians share the same Faith in namesake only- they disagree on so much, it's hard to believe they're studying even remotely the same book!!!

THAT'S what I mean by vague, and as I see it, Biblical vagueness runs so deep, I have to give the round to David Hume "hands down." Digital_Savior, I could probably take a moderately-complex numerical problem to any mathematics professor in the country, discuss it, and if we weren't "on the same page" when I arrived- we would be by the time I left. If there were disagreement at all, it wouldn't be about very much. That's what "Real Truth" is like... it stands on its own merits. Compare that to the nature of the "Biblical Truth" you cite... Faithful Christians seem to agree on next-to-nothing, and if any given one insists the contrary view is "full of it", rest assured, the same applies vice-versa, and all involved claim to be equally authoritative and expert in their Biblical knowledge!

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

Btw Rust, God didn't make the circle, he told people to make it, and humans aren't perfect.

You continue to make excuses for the perceived imperfections of the word of God.

The Bible is inerrant. If we do not think it is, it is simply because we lack the knowledge to understand it.

There are no flaws in the Bible. Period.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



What about all the "prphets" that "didn't make the cut"?

Did I misspell prophets or something ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

And what about them ?

They weren't the inspired word of God, so they didn't make the cut.

God has complete control over what happens to His word. If He wanted them included, they would have been.

"What" do you think was behind the councils ? The men themselves ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? You make a complete and total fool out of yourself. Of Course the bible isn't 100% true if even 50% true.

When I said 200, I was being facetious. Do you know what that is, or should I post the dictionary's definition of it?

Digital_savior, when you say that the bible is 100% true, you really show how naive and blind you really are.

Did you know, that every leader in history has edited and added little tidbits for over 1500 years. THERE IS NO WAY IT CAN EVEN REMOTELY RIGHT. THAT IS LIKE PLAYING A 1500 YEAR OLD GAME OF TELEPHONE. Have you ever played that game, 1 word can go through ten people and change as drastically as people actually thinking the bible is true and the actual truth, which anyone with a brain and any sense knows that the bible is the best fiction story ever written.

Oh and just because YOU think that the bible is right doesn't mean it is. I'm sorry, but you aren't that special.

BTW, the writer of that book is far more educated than you, and has read the book in it's original text, which is FAR MORE "truthful" then the version you read.

Now when you can actually come up with an arguement that has some substance to it. Not that repetative Bible thumping, Jesus fucking, christian rhetoric.

quote:Originally posted by Surf_Bum:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

[b]Digital_Savior, given a gradeschool Christian education, it was compulsory that I read and become familiar with a fair portion of it.

The extent of your Biblical studies concluded in grade school ?

If so, how was my statement any less correct, after gaining this knowledge about your history ?

quote:I haven't read it from "cover-to-cover", but that wouldn't mean anything (in particular) anyway...[/quote[

It most certainly does.

Can you please give me your honest opinion on the book The Strong Willed Child, by Dr. James Dobson ?

Since I know you haven't read it cover to cover, I expect your opinion of it to be accurate, and well-informed.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[quote]I read an autobiography last week in 2 evenings... that was longer than some highly-technical books used in classes I've taken that necessarily took an entire academic year to go through if it were to be done with understanding.

Um....ok.

Congrats ?

quote:Some people can comprehend things in short order that others just never see. Partly for those reasons, I've never really been impressed by people throwing "You've never read MY "... I mention "MY" because often when people say that, they also stipulate that it's imperative that it be THEIR version.

Every version is God's version. None of them are mine.

I choose to read the Jewish Bible, because it was painstakingly lifted from the ancient Hebrew and Greek (the author is a Messianic Jew).

I study Hebrew and Greek, so I can be sure of the accuracy of the historical references and rituals, including Jewish commandments (the Law of Moshe).

I don't really care if you value why I have chosen that Bible or not. It says the same thing the other translations say, I just prefer it because it is the closest to the originals (word for word) as I have ever seen.

It's a preference.

quote:First, note that David Hume argued- sensibly, in my opinion- that (in a nutshell...) If there is a god with whom Man should concern himself, this god's [b]desires as they relate to Man should be clear to the average, intelligent person- meaning, a typical person "pulled off the street."

That is absolutely true.

But in order to understand it, one must read it in it's entirety, and not make excuses for why they haven't.

quote:If that's not the case- assuming that such a god exists at all- then Man shouldn't concern himself with this god anyway, because this god's desires are so incomprehensible to Man, that Man can't effectively understand this god (let alone abide by this god's will) anyway.

How could a man concern himself with a God he didn't understand ?

What kind of God would not see the necessity for clear communication about His desires and requirements ?

It wouldn't be a matter of choice.

quote:Digital_Savior, there are multitudes of Christian religions based on the same, or at least extremely similar Bibles, and the extent to which they fundamentally and completely disagree is mind-numbing. One group says "Abortion is flat-out murder", another says different... one practically says "Homosexuals are extremely evil in the eyes of God" while another says "Homosexuality is no big deal." Some are pacifists and say to obey God means they can't participate in war... most say it's one's duty under God to support their country's military. Some insist that women are subserviant to men in a marraige, others insist the partnership is equal. Do they agree on the mystical aspects? No. Satan and Hell? Some say it's a real entity and place, others say it's all metaphorical. Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve? Some say just Evolution expressed metaphorically, others say they were a "real" couple and place. The list goes on, and on, and on.[

Every CHRISTIAN Bible, and Torah, are the same. The teachings and the parables are the same. The historical documentation is the same.

The perception of the reader is all that changes: enter religion.

Religion is man-made, and is not of God. I do not concern myself with things that are man-made, when I study the Bible.

I see what God says, and I take it literally.

I am a non-denominationalist for a []reason[/i].

quote:Considering how little Christians can agree upon- if that's not vague, I don't know what is.

You used humans and their endless logical fallacies to show how vague the Bible is.

Please ponder that for a moment....

quote:We're not talking about a few minor subtleties "here-and-there"... we're talking about very specific, major questions, and the situation appears almost to a point where Christians share the same Faith in namesake only- they disagree on so much, it's hard to believe they're studying even remotely the same book!!!

If a pastor of a church is trying to get his congregation to give more money, he could manipulate the text to force them into it by feelings of guilt and obligation.

However, the text says nothing that would incite those feelings. If people would read their own Bibles, and pray that God would give them discernment, the message is very clear, and there is only ONE.

quote:THAT'S what I mean by vague, and as I see it, Biblical vagueness runs so deep, I have to give the round to David Hume "hands down." Digital_Savior, I could probably take a moderately-complex numerical problem to any mathematics professor in the country, discuss it, and if we weren't "on the same page" when I arrived- we would be by the time I left. If there were disagreement at all, it wouldn't be about very much. That's what "Real Truth" is like... it stands on its own merits. Compare that to the nature of the "Biblical Truth" you cite... Faithful Christians seem to agree on next-to-nothing, and if any given one insists the contrary view is "full of it", rest assured, the same applies vice-versa, and all involved claim to be equally authoritative and expert in their Biblical knowledge!

Maybe if you'd stop looking to Christians for the answers you seek regarding God, and look to the Bible instead, you'd find them.

I suggest you start praying for discernment. The truth will be revealed to you.

All you have to do is ask. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

God bless you and keep you.

quote:Originally posted by Apoxyus:

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? You make a complete and total fool out of yourself. Of Course the bible isn't 100% true if even 50% true.

That made no sense, so I won't address it.

quote:When I said 200, I was being facetious. Do you know what that is, or should I post the dictionary's definition of it?

Arrogance isn't going to win you any brownie points with me, kidiot.

quote:Digital_savior, when you say that the bible is 100% true, you really show how naive and blind you really are.

Have you read it ?

quote:Did you know, that every leader in history has edited and added little tidbits for over 1500 years.

Name them, and show what parts were changed.

quote:THERE IS NO WAY IT CAN EVEN REMOTELY RIGHT. THAT IS LIKE PLAYING A 1500 YEAR OLD GAME OF TELEPHONE. Have you ever played that game, 1 word can go through ten people and change as drastically as people actually thinking the bible is true and the actual truth, which anyone with a brain and any sense knows that the bible is the best fiction story ever written.

That is a game played at summer camps and elementary schools.

Thanks for dating yourself, and showing how "naive" and "blind" you really are. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Oh and just because YOU think that the bible is right doesn't mean it is. I'm sorry, but you aren't that special.

It's not up to me.

God, the Almighty creator of the universe, says it is.

Having studied it for well beyond ten years now, I know enough to understand that what He has said is the truth.

Just because you don't believe it is (especially since you haven't read it), doesn't mean it isn't.

I'm sorry, but you aren't that special.

quote:BTW, the writer of that book is far more educated than you, and has read the book in it's original text, which is FAR MORE "truthful" then the version you read.

Care to be more specific ? How is he better educated ? How do you know my level of education ?

How do you know what I have, or have not read, in the original text ?

Do you even know whether the original texts still exist, or merely copies of them ?

You're a moron. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Now when you can actually come up with an arguement that has some substance to it. Not that repetative Bible thumping, Jesus fucking, christian rhetoric.

Now, when you get done changing your soiled pampers, maybe you can present something here worth debating.

All we've got is you throwing a temper tantrum, and foaming at the mouth.

How about you try refuting something I actually said ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 03-17-2006).]

Your only proof of anything is that "god almighty says so, so by golly it must be true. I'm sorry but THERE IS NOT FACTUAL EVIDENCE THAT THE BIBLE IS TRUE AND IF GOD EXISTS. Jesus existed, was he reverent or special, NO.

And I'm positive that the writer of "Misquoting Jesus" is way more educated than you considering he is regarded as a highly known scholar. Who knows you? Your mom? Your dad? WOW. YOU ARE DEFINATELY SOMEONE. o.O

Your futile stabs at my intelligence have no effect on me. All you can do is try and change the subject and call me an idiot. Oh and for the record, I was never trying to score brownie points with you. K thanks.

RELIGION WAS CREATED BY RULERS AS A WAY TO CONTROL THE MASSES. IT KEEPS STUPID PEOPLE BRAINWASHED AND BELIEVEING WHATEVER THEIR PRIEST SAYS.

FAITH THEY SAY! HAHA, FAITH IS AS REAL AS A UNICORN, EVERYONE TALKS ABOUT IT, NO ONE CAN SEE IT.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

That passage is a description, not a blue print. The vessel's perfection or lack thereof has no bearing on the accuracy of the description. If the vessel was not a perfect circle, the description would, and does quite obviously, reflect that fact. Jeremiah never claimed the vessel was a perfect circle, therefore the perfection of the vessel he describes is not at issue. The only way you could prove this passage to be in error would be to find the actual vessel in question and give a contradictory measurement of its dimensions.



It's a description of a supposed "circular" body which does not represent the value of pi correctly, and thus the bible contains error.

What you call a "perfect circle" is in actuality just a circle. As a circle is something which must hold the property circumference = pi* diameter. If it does not have that property, it is not a circle, period. Of course, we as humans have accepted the minor error of making "circles" with values that are not truly pi, but then we don't claim to be perfect, infallible, and inerrant. The bible does.

As such, if the bible describes a circular body, then it must, by pure necessity, give descriptions and dimensions that represent the true value of pi. It simply has not done so. We can therefore safely claim that it contains error - it's a logical inevitability.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-17-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Would you like the names of all the councils, smart ass ?

I believe you have just as much access to the internet search engines as I do.

I'd answer you, if I thought you really wanted to know. You seem to reside under the false assumption that I do not know myself, and therefore my posts to the OP are based on nothing more than opinion. Your rhetorical questions accomplish nothing.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, nigga !!! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I know that you know. I know that I know. The point is that the bible has been modified hundreds of thousands of times and is not perfect. If it was perfect it wouldn't need to be modified.

Let's assume for a second that the bible is perfect now. That would mean that when the bible was written and for several thousand years after the bible was not perfect.

[This message has been edited by Atomical (edited 03-17-2006).]

wow... Digital is very thick...

Saying that bible is perfect is like saying that anything that Microsoft produces is perfect. Things are never "perfect" when more then one person is involved in the project. And you are so set on your beliefs, that you will obviosly disregard everything that is "against them" because you simply can't live knowing that there is a slight chance of you being wrong.

But does everyone at Microsoft have a supernatural being showing them what to do?

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

But does everyone at Microsoft have a supernatural being showing them what to do?



Yes, Bill Gates...

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

I know that you know. I know that I know. The point is that the bible has been modified hundreds of thousands of times and is not perfect. If it was perfect it wouldn't need to be modified.

Then show us what you know.

Put some effort into your anti-Christian rhetoric, for once.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

wow... Digital is very thick...

Flattery will get you everywhere. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Saying that bible is perfect is like saying that anything that Microsoft produces is perfect. Things are never "perfect" when more then one person is involved in the project. And you are so set on your beliefs, that you will obviosly disregard everything that is "against them" because you simply can't live knowing that there is a slight chance of you being wrong.

You seem to be missing the fundamental basis for the whole Bible...God's omnipotence.

If He is real, and He is omnipotent, the maintenance of a little book isn't going to be a stumbling block for Him.

I believe He is real, and that He is omnipotent, so I hardly see how I am "thick" because I don't find it extraordinary that a being that can create an ATOM (let alone everything else in our universe) can also maintain His own book.

The Bible is clear: IT IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD, AND IT WILL NEVER CHANGE.

I'd give you the verses that say that, but they won't make a difference to you anyway, since you seem to think God is limited by human capabilities.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You seem to be missing the fundamental basis for the whole Bible...God's omnipotence.

If He is real, and He is omnipotent, the maintenance of a little book isn't going to be a stumbling block for Him.

I believe He is real, and that He is omnipotent, so I hardly see how I am "thick" because I don't find it extraordinary that a being that can create an ATOM (let alone everything else in our universe) can also maintain His own book.

The Bible is clear: IT IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD, AND IT WILL NEVER CHANGE.

I'd give you the verses that say that, but they won't make a difference to you anyway, since you seem to think God is limited by human capabilities.

So that is why the bible has be changed over and over. That is truth. I can see how the bible has been changed over the years. One thing, that I KNOW that I can't see, is this bullshit that "god" is almighty and omnipotent. HE ISN'T. I'm sorry but there is no physical proof that the mutha fucker exists. I HAVE PHYSICAL PROOF THE BIBLE HAS BEEN CHANGED. I HAVE PHYSICAL PROOF THAT EVOLUTION IS REAL. I HAVE PHYSICAL PROOF THAT I CAN SAY WHATEVER I WANT ABOUT "GOD" YET I AM NOT STRICKEN DOWN.

STFU Digital_Savior, You bring nothing to the table except bullshit. And don't come back with a bunch of scripture trying to counter what I said. The reason is because the bible is as truthful as "The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe". IT'S FAKE, GET OVER IT. I refuse to take anything written in the bible as real because it is FICTION.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I'd give you the verses that say that, but they won't make a difference to you anyway, since you seem to think God is limited by human capabilities.

Humans don't depend on god, god depends on humans.

Do you believe in aliens?

I HAVE PHYSICAL PROOF THE BIBLE HAS BEEN CHANGED. I HAVE PHYSICAL PROOF THAT EVOLUTION IS REAL. I HAVE PHYSICAL PROOF THAT I CAN SAY WHATEVER I WANT ABOUT "GOD" YET I AM NOT STRICKEN DOWN.

Please show us all of this physical proof, because I'm sure everyone would like to see it.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I HAVE PHYSICAL PROOF THE BIBLE HAS BEEN CHANGED. I HAVE PHYSICAL PROOF THAT EVOLUTION IS REAL. I HAVE PHYSICAL PROOF THAT I CAN SAY WHATEVER I WANT ABOUT "GOD" YET I AM NOT STRICKEN DOWN.

Please show us all of this physical proof, because I'm sure everyone would like to see it.





All you have to do is open up your eyes/mind.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



All you have to do is open up your eyes/mind.

He said he has physical proof that the Bible has been changed and that he has physical proof that evolution is real. He made a very bold statement, and now its time to lay the cards on the table. I call 'bluff.'

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

He said he has physical proof that the Bible has been changed and that he has physical proof that evolution is real. He made a very bold statement, and now its time to lay the cards on the table. I call 'bluff.'



Exactly what he said, OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES!

The proof about the bible, even the vatican came out and said that things written in the bible have been changed.

Stop being so brainwashed and think for yourselfs, you fucking sheep.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Then show us what you know.

Put some effort into your anti-Christian rhetoric, for once.

I have never said anything anti-Christian and that previous post was no different.

Uh, how can "the" Bible be perfect if there are many many versions of it? The fact that there is more than one version means that it is admitted that improvements can be made upon each version. If something can be improved upon, it is not perfect, so "the" Bible can not possibly be perfect.

Digital_Savior, the overriding problem with what you present is that, as you openly acknowledge, your insistence upon the unequivocal truth of the Bible is based upon nothing other than your (somehow) being able to sense this. Understand that this point of view is by no means unique- in fact, there's been a long line of people making this claim- both from within mainstream religion, and other- and their history is an unimpressive one. Although there are many lesser-known others, names such as Pat Robertson, David Koresh, and Jim Jones are among those commonly familiar. As these names admittedly represent a sampling of an extreme sort, I'll attempt to comment on "both sides of the coin" in a balanced way:

Consider Pat Robertson- I think he's a sincere man, but I think his Faith leads him to say nonsensical things, some of which promote hate, and probably indirectly harm people undeserving of the wrath he inspires. A few atheists might cite examples like Robertson- or worse yet- David Koresh of the doomed Branch Davidian cult, the maniacal Jim Jones of People's Temple Massacre notoriety, the serial murderer who referred to himself as the The BTK Killer while holding a leading position in a Lutheran church... and the like... subtly implying that the words and actions of such people suggest that Christianity is twisted in ways, and to extents, that in the big picture, it seldom is. These atheists (as I've observed in other places, but not on totse, where people are simply being direct, although sometimes unrefined) who engage in such tactics are not being honest- they're being propagandists... they realize that such men represent highly-anomalous examples of Christianity, yet they intentionally over-generalize. These "spin mongers" comprise a very small minority of atheists, and when such people are convoluting truth through subtle undertones and inuendo in these ways, often while being bellicose, belligerent, projecting an aire of conceit, or otherwise engaging in self-aggrandizing, braggadocio and such... I feel they are kind of an embarrassment. A majority of atheists (who are typically less-vocal... a "quiet majority" if you will) have a better sense of perspective, and feel (as do I) that we're all basically mammals, with a slightly more developed cerebral cortex which enables us to understand our world somewhat better than other animals, but still, all of our understanding is very limited by our biology, hence, it's prudent to be open-minded and tolerant when considering the views of our fellow man. Although I don't align myself with the aforementioned atheists as the tone of their criticism is too skewed, and I don't find their personal tactics and demeanor to be very impressive, their point that people who simply posit, "The Bible is true because I just know it" don't have a very good track record is completely valid.

Digital_Savior- if for no other reason than that- you have to do better than to state nothing other than that you simply know this to be true if others are to seriously consider your message, as clearly, there are many people who have read and studied the Bible and derived conclusions of all kinds- many vastly differing from your own. Since I don't consider myself to be "smarter" or "more insightful" than those people as I'm just another human being- from roughly the same culture as most of them- there's reason to believe that if I dilligently studied the Bible as have they, that I similarly might come to very different conclusions, as well. The same likely applies to everyone else participating in this thread.

Hey, ya'll menitoned Bill Gates... I say why not nominate him for Sainthood... I mean, he's a superachiever, he does a lot of charity work, and he's a class act... why not? With his name-recognition value, he'd give the Catholic Church some much-needed positive association these days (joke).

Edditted to krect spellin and grammor.

[This message has been edited by Surf_Bum (edited 03-18-2006).]

I have a question. This ones mainly for digital. Your telling me after thousands of years that theres no way that maybe a couple words got changed or a paragraph or two might have been left out?

Here's a site listing the timeline that it took just to get to the english version.

http://tinyurl.com/hs5fn

That's a long time. Even the great pyramids which some of which were built as old as 4,600 years greatly outdating the bible show extreme signs of wear after so much time. The point and comparison here being like the pyramids, I really don't see how the bible could be perfect after so much time.

I don't care about whether or not the book is absolute truth or not, I'm just saying there's to great of a chance for there to be some kind of error.

I like your point about the pyramids. The wear on the pyramids however doesn't really make a difference concerning the pyramids purpose. It's not smooth and shiny as it once was but all of the important features are in tact. All of the chambers remain built just as they were designed the inner parts hold their structure and design. Also from the outside we still see the same shape and size only altering a fraction of a percentage do to wear. Just like the pyramid was built as a perfect sructure using imperfect (corruptable) stones, the Bible was built as a perfect structure using imperfect stones (human languages, ink and paper etc...) looking at it from a distance it has the exact same shape and demensions as it had in the begining, going deep inside of it, into the inner chambers, you see the same sructure and design holding the form they were given and serving the purpose they were given. There was also evidence of a forced entry into the pyramids, likewise, perhaps in the history of the Bible there have been forced entries where people have deliberately changed something (I'm sure Mr. Ehrman points out). But just because we see a forced entry in the pyramid, do we deny the pyramid entirely saying the whole thing can't be trusted? So likewise why can't we look at the Bible as a structure which has weathered storms and faced intruders but still serves the exact purpose for which it was intended, having intact all of the important parts? Ok this argument isn't perfect but do you get my point?

Something else that is interesting is that if we look to a large body of writing called the volumes of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, by taking scripture quations from that ten volume set of works we can reconstruct the entire new testament, just as we have it today. These volumes were written between roughly 70 ad and 325 ad. At least one of these authors was a companion of the apostle John himself, many others were only one generation removed from the apostles. If the quotation of the new testament from the first three generations of Christians lines up almost word for word with what we have today, isn't it reasonable to think we are reading the same gospel?

The fact that the Bible has been written in a language with pen and ink has already corrupted it since it has put something perfect into an imperfect box or format. But it is the word, that is the logos (the reason, the idea, the divine mind etc...) which remains unaltered and perfect, and it was this word which inspired the scriptures.

quote:Originally posted by Apoxyus:

Exactly what he said, OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES!

The proof about the bible, even the vatican came out and said that things written in the bible have been changed.

Stop being so brainwashed and think for yourselfs, you fucking sheep.

LOL!!! You said you had proof, physical proof. Now its time to show your cards. I call 'bluff'.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

LOL!!! You said you had proof, physical proof. Now its time to show your cards. I call 'bluff'.





Listen, you freaking t00l, I want physical proof of god. Show me your cards.

there is so much idiocy in this thread, it's outrageous. i dont even know where to start. i'll start from the beginning of the thread and work towards the end i guess.

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

so it wasn't a perfect circle, just circular in shape http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

a circle is a circle. a circle isn't a square or a triangle. it isnt an oval or eclipse. circular shape = circle

QUOTE]Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

According to whom ?

there seem to be varying opinions, as you can clearly see demonstrated throughout the history of recorded man HERE (http://mathforum.org/isaac/problems/pi2.html).[/QUOTE]

PI is a constant number. only until recently have people found out how to get the exact number. no matter if people have had a varying perception on what PI is, it doesn't change the fact that a circle's circumference is exactly equal to its diameter multiplied by PI. same as saying 1 + 3 = 4. it always has and it always will. people can say otherwise, but it doesn't change the fact.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The fact that you find the Bible to be "vague" proves that you have not read it, and are therefore in no position to determine whether it is worthy of ridicule or not, based on it's absurdity.

The Bible was written to be vague. You haven't read the Bible have you? There is a reason we aren't suppose to say God's name. There is a reason you are not supposed to make images of God. There is a reason why Jesus spoke out in parables and not directly. Trying to get the Bible into more accurate words than they are is considered blasphemous.

this goes espsecially to you rapture fuckheads. john of patmos wrote at the end of his letter, the last chapter of the bible itself, that no one should add or take away from the words he has written. this mean you fucks that try to interperet it into words other than his own. you blasphemous shitholes.

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

Thanks Digital, and Rust, just because God is perfect, doesn't mean he has to have his priests make something perfectly circular. Back then without some of the modern technology we have today, it would be impossible to make it perfectly circular.



what kind of technology are you talking about? a wooden stake with a string tied to it? walk away from the stake until the string is stretched out and walk around the stake in a circle, so the radius would be equal all the way around? yeah that technology didnt come out until few decades ago right? you guys can use the internet, yet you have no idea what it takes to make a circle. fucking sad.

quote:Originally posted by Apoxyus:

RELIGION WAS CREATED BY RULERS AS A WAY TO CONTROL THE MASSES.

seriously religion in itself is blasphemous to the existance of a God. why would God need a pagan like constantine to mandate christianity as a religion for his empire? why do missionaries go out to convert people? back then it was that you showed a non-believer a miracle and then they believed. now its like you pester someone until they start believing. you are telling me God wants this? God intended to have the belief of His existence in the form of a missionary. in the form of some person ready to bomb some planned parenting building. once again, just having to impose the belief of God and his rules on others is blasphemous to the notion of God, you blasphemous fucks.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Please show us all of this physical proof, because I'm sure everyone would like to see it.

first of all, jesus is supposed to be named joshua from his aramaic name johoshua (sp?) bar josep. that was a misake made when the bible was being converted between latin and greek. second, explain why the apocrypha would even be considered to be taken out of the bible canon, if its the word inspired by God. i sure wouldnt want to piss God off by taking away texts that He inspired.

you guys want proof, there is your proof. plus the fact that texts found in qumran are way older than any text the bible was written from, yet did not make it in the bible. the text a nag hammadi aren't as old, but they are still considered inspirations of God as said by the Vaticans, yet they aren't in the bible canon...

quote:Originally posted by postdiluvium:

there is so much idiocy in this thread, it's outrageous. i dont even know where to start. i'll start from the beginning of the thread and work towards the end i guess.

first of all, jesus is supposed to be named joshua from his aramaic name johoshua (sp?) bar josep. that was a misake made when the bible was being converted between latin and greek. second, explain why the apocrypha would even be considered to be taken out of the bible canon, if its the word inspired by God. i sure wouldnt want to piss God off by taking away texts that He inspired.

you guys want proof, there is your proof. plus the fact that texts found in qumran are way older than any text the bible was written from, yet did not make it in the bible. the text a nag hammadi aren't as old, but they are still considered inspirations of God as said by the Vaticans, yet they aren't in the bible canon...

Umm, Woot, kudos to you. Finally someone with some intelligence on this thread other than these so called "Christians".

The greatest tragedy in life is when a man stops believing in himself. When he bases his beliefs off the group consensus, instead of what he deep down feels to be right. For in falling in, you only lose yourself.

-Quoted from myself as stated on totse.com in the community bulletin board in this self referential credit



In case you didn't catch the meaning, I will explain.

When you base your moral theology, your way of living life, off anything other than yourself (eg a book from thousands of years ago laden with contradictions and statements disproven by science), you deserve no praise for your actions- only for falling in. Monkeys can be trained to go with the flow- to push the button, wax on wax off, and to do anything for the promise of reward (heaven anyone?). For a human to believe what is right because he is told to is pathetic, and undeserving of respect. The nazis did what they were told, and we despise them.

Don't freak, I'm not saying your nazis, you are generally very good people, but I digress.

In addition, if you (without the bible) would honestly on your own believe and come to the conclusion of everything the bible states (homosexuality is wrong and evil, modern science and evolution are complete evil bullshit, sexuality should be repressed, masturbation is wrong, sex before marriage is wrong, etc etc), then fine. Go ahead and believe it because you agree with it.

However, to mold your beliefs around anything other than the moral, social, loving truth you feel in your own heart is weak and pathetic.

Throwing out all reason in favor of a very old book that has been refuted by modern science and even refuted by itself is ridiculous.

The bible has some great spiritual messages. It also has some terrible ones. The god of the old testament is portrayed an evil, brutal being. However, many parables and tales have a good message. They tell you nothing you shouldn't know on your own, but still. I am very frightened by the concept that some believe whole heartedly in the bible's 100% accuracy unquestioningly, as this has lead to the moral atrocities evident in other religions (Islam's suicide bombers, for example).

My point is, most christians fully believe they are good moral people. If this is true (and it mostly is) then why don't you prove it by thinking for yourself and doing good out of your character, instead of for eternal paradise or out of allegiance to a brutal, vain, demanding god or worse of all, out of fear.