Can you ever really have religious tolerance among religious people? I mean, most religious people think they're right and everyone else is wrong, and their religion (noteably Christianity and Islam) teaches to show no tolerance to anyone who doesn't follow their religion, and usually violence if taken at a fundamentalist level.

So, why do a lot of governments waste time and money promoting this "religious tolerance" bullshit when you can never have religious tolerance among religous people. Also, any religious person who promotes religious tolerance is usually straying away from his religion's teachings.

So basically, the only people who could ever really practice religious tolerance are Atheists and Agnostics.

I've seen some very intolerant atheists and some very tolerant christians.

quote:Originally posted by asthesunsets:

I've seen some very intolerant atheists and some very tolerant christians.

Thing is, a tolerant Christian isn't following the teachings of the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by smoketheweed:

Thing is, a tolerant Christian isn't following the teachings of the Bible.

Serious question: What's your point?

[This message has been edited by Zay (edited 03-16-2006).]

quote: originally posted by Thomas Jefferson But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

quote:Originally posted by smoketheweed:

Thing is, a tolerant Christian isn't following the teachings of the Bible.

Tolerance is not an intrinsic good. Also, please support your claims with textual support instead of making an unwarranted claim.

[This message has been edited by Zinquaff (edited 03-16-2006).]

Lol, Zinqueef.

The original poster is completely talking out of his ass. He has absolutely no proof that ANY of the world's religions teach not to be tolerant.

Also, I can think of many atrocities committed in the name of atheism(especially in the early Soviet Union).

And before you say "The Soviets don't represent the majority of atheists!" just remember that the Crusaders don't represent the majority of Christians these days and that Osama bin Laden doesn't represent the majority of Muslims.

quote:Originally posted by smoketheweed:

Can you ever really have religious tolerance among religious people? I mean, most religious people think they're right and everyone else is wrong, and their religion (noteably Christianity and Islam) teaches to show no tolerance to anyone who doesn't follow their religion, and usually violence if taken at a fundamentalist level.

So, why do a lot of governments waste time and money promoting this "religious tolerance" bullshit when you can never have religious tolerance among religous people. Also, any religious person who promotes religious tolerance is usually straying away from his religion's teachings.

So basically, the only people who could ever really practice religious tolerance are Atheists and Agnostics.

Since when does Christianity not teach tolerance? A sizable portion of all of the morals of Christianity are based on tolerance.

And yes, you can have tolerance with religious people. I am Christian, but I respect people from other religions and gays. I work with people from both groups for goodness sake.

[This message has been edited by ArgonPlasma2000 (edited 03-16-2006).]

Moving to My God...

quote:Originally posted by LogicalEloquence:

Also, I can think of many atrocities committed in the name of atheism(especially in the early Soviet Union).

Stalin or other leaders didn't do horrible things in the name of atheism, it was just a part of their governing style. If they did things in the name of atheism, St. Basil's Cathedral wouldn't be standing anymore.

actually id like to hear one 'atrocity' that was commited becuase an atheist is an atheist and most all of the remaining world isnt. who ever it was used the crusades in a valid point, but the soviet union thing threw me off.

i mean when i was in high schoold government and politics/eco 1301 we were force fed anti commie propaganda till we shit it out whole, but never once did i hear atheisim involded

us atheists only hate you religious people because you're so damn intolerant.

anyway organised religion is the opiate of the masses, it is a tool of order used by the establishment to keep the proletariat stupid and docile. it is the enemy of free thought and intellectualism.

well christians that recognize that paul was no apostle are tolerant. most of christian intolerance comes from paul in the new testament. but when one realizes that paul never knew jesus when he was alive. Actually, he was one of the pharisees that sent him to his death, as written by Loki in the book of Acts. Jesus, without paul adding words to the teachings of jesus, taught tolerance. "He who is without sin cast the first stone." "Turn the other cheek." Paul, in one of his letters even wrote that men were not to have long hair like women. If any of the images of jesus we have are factual, paul had a problem with jesus' hippy hair.

quote:Originally posted by LogicalEloquence:

He has absolutely no proof that ANY of the world's religions teach not to be tolerant.

Here you go:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

A man must slay his daughter, wife, son or friend for a difference in religion.

The totalitarian regime of Stalin was probably the most murderous of all time, but the fact that it was a secular state (lacking religion) doesn't relate to this brutality any more than does the fact that Stalin had a mustache. They're both just incidentals.

As concisely suggested by the excellent Jefferson quote- As an atheist, I do not care what anybody else chooses to believe, and I see no reason why I should desire/attempt to change any/everyone's views to more closely match my own... why not allow them the same freedom of thought I enjoy? ... besides, that's an exercise in futility if ever there were one. It seems to me that the only reason people seek to do so... amounting to impose their "spiritual" opinions and lifestyle upon others... must be somehow rooted in a deep-seated, and extraordinarily arrogant and tyranical desire to "psychologically conquer." This strikes me as weird... and kind of creepy. Don't believe in abortion??? Well, don't get one, and make sure your partners share your view! Don't believe in drinking??? That one's not a bad idea... so don't do it! Likewise for whatever else... just don't shove it down everyone else's throat.

quote:Originally posted by smoketheweed:

Thing is, a tolerant Christian isn't following the teachings of the Bible.

TOLERANT - Inclined to tolerate the beliefs, practices, or traits of others; forbearing.

Please show me where in the Bible Christians are commanded to be intolerant.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

Here you go:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

A man must slay his daughter, wife, son or friend for a difference in religion.

That is a Judaic Law.

We are talking about Christians, who subscribe to the teaching of Christ.

Since it's a Judaic law, we should look at the direct translation, from a Jewish Bible:

"If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or your wife whom you love, or your friend who means as much to you as yourself, secretly tries to entice you to go and serve other gods, that you haven't known, neither you, nor your ancestors - gods of the people surrounding you, whether near or far away from you, anywhere in the world - you are not to consent, and you are not to listen to him; and you must not pity him, or spare him; and you may not conceal him.

Rather, you must kill him ! Your own hand must be the first one on him in putting him to death, and afterwards, the hands of all the people.

You are to stone him to death; because he has tried to draw you away from Adonai your God, who brought you out of the Land of Egypt, out of the life of slavery.

Then all Isra'el will hear about it, and be afraid, so that they will stop doing such wickedness as this among themselves."

Moses (Moshe) was the author of that passage, and that was a direct commandment to the Jews.

Maybe if you understood the Bible, you could come up with some legitimate challenges.

Since you have already admitted that you were once a "Christian" and now cannot bring yourself to be one, it is obvious to me why your attempts at a relationship with God failed.

You did not know Him.

I should point out the Idolatry in the biblical age often meant such extremes as human sacrifice, and even child sacrifice, as was the case with Molech. It was hardly something to be tolerated. Also the death sentences were more often simply incentives to "get the fuck out of dodge." Persons convicted were given ample opportunity to be exiled to Cities of Sanctuary and were often allowed back after intervening Jubilee years. In the land of Israel when the presence of God was upon the earth, spiritual purity was of paramount importance, both in service to God, and in avoiding destruction. God did not take kindly to disobedience at all: as was proven by our eventual exile and near destruction. Theocratic government was necessary to keep up this level of purity while it lasted. The hebrew word for holy (Kodesh) means separate. The essence of holiness is to separate the good from the bad, the pure from the impure, the wheat from the chaff. A religion that demands nothing of its practitioners, provides no moral instruction, and warns of no consequences is not a religion. Simply categorising any kind of standards with regards to behaviour as "intolerant," is ridiculous. Regardless, all three Abrahamaic faiths include concepts of tolerance and the famous Ethic of Reciprocity. The Talmud and Koran even go so far as to state explicitly that people of other faiths who otherwise behave in accordance with the morals encouraged in our faiths are worthy of paradise.

Someone brought out Marx's old "opiate of the masses" quote. Marx's theories have never worked in the governmental realm, likewise, the only thing that fills the vacuum left by religion under the dictatorship of the proletariat (a stage past which no attempt at a communist government has ever progressed) is inevitably replaced by a "religion of state" or "cult of personality" or whatever you want to call it. The Soviet Union was intolerant of religion, but at the same time was intolerant of "actions offensive to the people's morals." It was a morally repressive regime whose propaganda characterised the West as morally corrupt and given to all sorts of debauchery. The least homosexual nation on the planet is North Korea, because their atheist government executes gays, and suspected gays, by firing squad. Hardly tolerance.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

That is a Judaic Law.

We are talking about Christians, who subscribe to the teaching of Christ.

Since it's a Judaic law, we should look at the direct translation, from a Jewish Bible:

"If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or your wife whom you love, or your friend who means as much to you as yourself, secretly tries to entice you to go and serve other gods, that you haven't known, neither you, nor your ancestors - gods of the people surrounding you, whether near or far away from you, anywhere in the world - you are not to consent, and you are not to listen to him; and you must not pity him, or spare him; and you may not conceal him.

Rather, you must kill him ! Your own hand must be the first one on him in putting him to death, and afterwards, the hands of all the people.

You are to stone him to death; because he has tried to draw you away from Adonai your God, who brought you out of the Land of Egypt, out of the life of slavery.

Then all Isra'el will hear about it, and be afraid, so that they will stop doing such wickedness as this among themselves."

Moses (Moshe) was the author of that passage, and that was a direct commandment to the Jews.

Maybe if you understood the Bible, you could come up with some legitimate challenges.

Since you have already admitted that you were once a "Christian" and now cannot bring yourself to be one, it is obvious to me why your attempts at a relationship with God failed.

You did not know Him.

Bible was written for Jews...

And that was just one of examples, there are many more that I won't even bother looking up.

And ofcourse... I didn't know him... rollseyes

PLUS... what the fuck does it matter... if you believe in God, you believe in Bible... So therefore you should not pick out things that apply only to you. Bible is universal.

Hypocrit

[This message has been edited by ohhi (edited 03-17-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

Bible was written for Jews...

No, the TORAH was written for Jews.

The New Testament was written for both Jews and gentiles.

quote:And that was just one of examples, there are many more that I won't even bother looking up.

You didn't identify any commandments of Christ that would pertain to intolerance.

That is the only part that would affect Christians.

quote:And ofcourse... I didn't know him... rollseyes

Well, from what you said, there IS no God, because you fell away from Him.

How can you understand/love Him if you do not know Him ?

Accept the fact that YOU failed Him, not the other way around.

quote:PLUS... what the fuck does it matter... if you believe in God, you believe in Bible... So therefore you should not pick out things that apply only to you. Bible is universal.

Hypocrit

I didn't pick out anything. The Mosaic Laws DO NOT APPLY TO THE GENTILES. The Old Testament serves the Christians differently than it does the Jews.

Again, if you understood the context, you would know why that is.

I am not going to spend the next 4 years trying to teach you.

It's all there, kiddo.

quote:TerminatorVinitiator:

anyway organised religion is the opiate of the masses, it is a tool of order used by the establishment to keep the proletariat stupid and docile. it is the enemy of free thought and intellectualism.

quote:Sephiroth:

Someone brought out Marx's old "opiate of the masses" quote. Marx's theories have never worked in the governmental realm, likewise, the only thing that fills the vacuum left by religion under the dictatorship of the proletariat (a stage past which no attempt at a communist government has ever progressed) is inevitably replaced by a "religion of state" or "cult of personality" or whatever you want to call it. The Soviet Union was intolerant of religion, but at the same time was intolerant of "actions offensive to the people's morals." It was a morally repressive regime whose propaganda characterised the West as morally corrupt and given to all sorts of debauchery. The least homosexual nation on the planet is North Korea, because their atheist government executes gays, and suspected gays, by firing squad. Hardly tolerance.

Big surprise...Terminator quoting Marx ?!!! http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)