I was having a good debate about this with some friends the other day, and now I'm curious as to what Jesus or the bible says about this most difficult of subjects:

Child molesters can't be cured, and will continue to strike again and again thoughout their lives. I think they should just kill themselves, out of a sense of duty to humanity and for their own sake.

It's tragic, because some of them don't seem to cultivate such a desire, it seems to just spring up in them from an early age (at least if the pedophiles I've heard during interviews on television are to be believed).

For the sake of argument, let's say someone is born with pedophile tendencies which manifest later in life. The only options I see open for that individual according to Christian doctrine are three possiblilities:

1. That person prays for guidance, and hopes that by some extremely rare miracle, they are able to live a life without being a danger to children. Maybe by moving into the woods away from everybody or something, I don't know. Seems irresponsible, like a time bomb waiting to go off.

2. That person seeks counsel, and if the counsel is any good, they will be locked up away from society forever. A fate where suicide begins to look good by comparison.

3. That person, regardless of any praying or counseling measures they've undertaken, simply waits until they give in to temptation, and they harm a child. At which point they turn themselves in to the police. Again, another fate where suicide begins to look good by comparison.

Suicide I know is the ultimate mortal sin, and is never an option according to Christianity. But with this scenario, it seems like it would be the best option for both the pedophile and any potential victims the individual may harm (and "when" is usually more certain than "if"). What is a pedophile supposed to do?

I like to try and understand Christianity, so any serious answers here are appreciated. I consider this to be a very tough question that I've never heard anyone adequately explore before in this context.



[This message has been edited by -Morb- (edited 03-19-2006).]

I think that if a child molester was saved, then God would be able to change his life enough that his desires to be with children would disapear.

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

I think that if a child molester was saved, then God would be able to change his life enough that his desires to be with children would disapear.

That makes sense, except is there any recorded case of that happening? I've never heard of anyone being cured by God when it comes to this. I've heard of cancer victims who claim to have been miraculously cured, but never pedophiles. And I've heard of pedophiles who claim to pray to God every day to become cured of their condition.

The curse of pedophilia seems to be a particularly unfair one for God to afflict anyone with. There's no option open for the individual that doesn't end in horrible tragedy.

I think they chould be locked in a cell for the rest of there life . I am a christian and thats why lots of other people on totse dont like what I have to say but here maybe some people that think as I do. I can not give a wright awnser to your question for I do not know the awnser but I will say what I think. put them in jail for life. are you a fallower of christ?

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

I think that if a child molester was saved, then God would be able to change his life enough that his desires to be with children would disapear.

Molesting children is a mental illness. Are you suggesting someone who is saved is free from depression and anxiety?

nothing wrong with touchin up a kid

I wasn't aware child molestation was classified as a mental illness, but if someone is saved, while they arn't free of depression, they would be a lot less likley to fall into it, because they can turn to Jesus. I havn't heard of anyone who was a child molester being saved and cured either, but theres alot i don't know. I also beleive that God is powerful enough to work in their lives and cure them. Its like homosexuals, they never stop looking at the same sex, but with the help of God they overcome their desires.



[This message has been edited by Dragonsthrone (edited 03-19-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

I wasn't aware child molestation was classified as a mental illness, but if someone is saved, while they arn't free of depression, they would be a lot less likley to fall into it, because they can turn to Jesus.

You have any proof to support this?

quote:Originally posted by super chick:

I think they chould be locked in a cell for the rest of there life . I am a christian and thats why lots of other people on totse dont like what I have to say but here maybe some people that think as I do. I can not give a wright awnser to your question for I do not know the awnser but I will say what I think. put them in jail for life. are you a fallower of christ?



You are so dumb... it's not even funny.

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

Molesting children is a mental illness. Are you suggesting someone who is saved is free from depression and anxiety?

But having sex with animals is not.

You're a strange fellow, Atomical.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



You are so dumb... it's not even funny.

How many times does it need to be pointed out ?

Any and all sins are forgiven, if a person truly repents.

God can heal all things...including pedophilia.

Homosexuals are healed all the time.

It takes a willing heart. That is the only requirement.

However, there is no scientific evidence that people are born "pedophiles".

Something happens to them along the way (they are molested, or they see something horrible happen, or they are abused by their parents). It's a manifestation of something else that is "broken" inside of them, which means it can be "fixed".

None of the secular psychobabble is going to fix that sort of brokeness, however.

Only God can heal them.

The problem with the logic behind your post is that you are asking us to decide two things, but presenting it as one thing.

God can do all things, including healing and forgiving sinners. That's the answer I think you were really looking for, however you brought up what we should do with these people, as well.

I just wanted to make sure you saw the difference between what man can do, and what God can do.

You seem to think they have no choice in the matter. Nothing forces a pedophile to hurt children other than his own desires. They don't need to pray to make the right decisions they can just make them.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

How many times does it need to be pointed out ?

It was first one for me? I don't know. Point it out untill she becomes "less dumb"? haha

And not all sins can be forgiven, you should know that.

Are you going from thread to thread, just looking for my posts so you can make childish remarks about them ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, and that is rejection of God.

Do not presume to know more than I do about Christianity.

God doesn't "heal" anyone with an illness. He saves them. There should be noted a clear and distinct difference between the two.

A homosexual who looks to God is not "healed or ridden of his homosexuality", he would be saved from it. The homosexuality is still there, just like the pedophile's urges would still be there. However, the difference would be that God gave them the power to overcome their "illness"(whether you want to classify homosexuality as an illness is up to you). It's the same premise as Alcoholics Anonymous. They aren't cured of their alcoholism, but rather, they're given the strength to overcome it.

^^I think I understand what you're talking about, NC, interesting point. But I still have never heard of anyone who has been saved from pedophilia. Even if there were such a person, I still wouldn't want them to, say, babysit my kids (for an extreme example). I would distrust the most convincing example of someone being saved in favor of the welfare of children.

I guess the real question may be is it possible for someone to be born with this sickness, or if it's always something that germinates later on. This particular sickness seems to be so different and so utterly abhorrent compared with practically anything else, that I wonder what purpose it could possibly serve in God's eyes to have people born with it.

In any case, I still think the most responsible thing to do for a pedophile would be to turn themselves in to some institution that would take them out of contact with society forever. Pretty grim.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

But having sex with animals is not.

You're a strange fellow, Atomical.

Until you can prove that the American Psychological Association is actively treating bestiality as a mental illness what I have said stands.

EDIT:

This is a pretty good example of ad hom. I've become the target of a hate website (butthrax) and now I'm being followed thread to thread with remarks that target my view of beastiality that has NOTHING to do with the thread topic.



[This message has been edited by Atomical (edited 03-19-2006).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by -Morb-:

^^I think I understand what you're talking about, NC, interesting point. But I still have never heard of anyone who has been saved from pedophilia. Even if there were such a person, I still wouldn't want them to, say, babysit my kids (for an extreme example). I would distrust the most convincing example of someone being saved in favor of the welfare of children.

I wouldn't let a pedophile, saved or not, babysit my children either... Forgiveness doesn't equal exoneration. For instance, suppose your girlfriend cheats on you. You're absolutely pissed. She calls you asking for forgiveness. You refuse because the wound is still so fresh. A few days goes by and you've evaluated the situation. She calls a again and asks for forgiveness. She made a stupid mistake, you recognize that, realizing that you too could have been tempted in the very same way. So, you forgive her. She breaths a sigh of relief, and asks when she can come over. You say, "Excuse me? Come over?" She's a bit perplexed. "Didn't you just forgive me?" You say, "Uh yeah, I did forgive you. You are forgiven. I hold no grudge against you, but since when does my forgivness force me to remain with you? Sorry, but though I forgive you, I don't want to be with anyone that cheats on me. It destroys trust and the relationship is defiled. Nope. I forgive you, but come pick up your crap from house because I'm moving on."

I guess the real question may be is it possible for someone to be born with this sickness, or if it's always something that germinates later on. This particular sickness seems to be so different and so utterly abhorrent compared with practically anything else, that I wonder what purpose it could possibly serve in God's eyes to have people born with it.

You're starting to fall for the same bait that was posed to the heterosexual by the homosexual community. Do you honestly think there is some glandular disturbance or malfunction is the hypothalamus that can account for wanting to molest children? Morb, its sin. Call it what it is. Sin exists! And the more you engage in it, the more depraved the mind becomes. Just look at the progression people go through when they watch porn. First, its normal intercourse, but that gets 'boring.' Then they get into watching and having anal sex. That gets boring, so they go to bisexual pornography. That gets 'boring.' Then their senses become so dull from sin, they need ridiculous amounts of stimulation, so they engage in masochistic activities. It just snowballs into the most ridiculous things. How are animals sexually attractive? Do you think you're born that way, or that you developed that from sin? Is a little baby sexually attractive or is it due to sin that got progressively worse? Make no excuses for the sinner. Rebuke a sinner firmly, but with love. He will hate you for it, but if he turns, he will realize that what you've done for him was not to placate him but its because you love him.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by -Morb-:

[b]Do you honestly think there is some glandular disturbance or malfunction is the hypothalamus that can account for wanting to molest children? Morb, its sin. Call it what it is. Sin exists!

Argument of incredulity.

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

You have any proof to support this?

As i said i havn't heard of anyone being cured from it, but if you believe the Bible you shuold have all the proof you need. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

There is no Bible or Jesus answer for pedophiles. Back then there was no such thing as pedophile laws, or the word itself. In terms of human history, it is a fairly recent thing. Mary was like 13 when she married Joseph, who was well into his 40s or maybe older. It was common back then for young women to get with old men. A woman couldn't carry on the family name so she would be married off for like farmland or some sort of materialistic trade. Usually around the time she starts her period, so she had some visual proof that she could produce kids.



Actually, this is still practiced all over the world except for western civilization. This still happens in the middle east, where christianity came from. Anyone that actually gives you an answer for this and says its from Jesus or the Bible would not be telling the truth.

[This message has been edited by postdiluvium (edited 03-20-2006).]

Catholic morals say if killing one person can save lives of many then kill the one person.

I've got a better question; If God is all forgiving, then how come there is no way out of Hell?

In Taoism, there are 9 stages of Hell, and you can work your way into Heaven through prayer...why is this not true for Christianity? I was born and raised Catholic, and wish I wasn't...In my opininon it's one of the worst religions and 15 years of it has driven me insane...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Are you going from thread to thread, just looking for my posts so you can make childish remarks about them ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, and that is rejection of God.

Do not presume to know more than I do about Christianity.

Rejection of god?

Aren't "godly" men often pedophiles as see from the many priests that have done so? There is no way to save them, god does not have power since he doesnt exist. The only way for these people to be safe people in society is for them to just have the will power to not do it. Turning to jesus is nothing if the person doesn't have his own will power. But I guess thats just because I don't believe in god... I say kill em. Life is not sacred.. if you can't control yourself from fucking up little kids you should be killed.

[This message has been edited by jm5k (edited 03-21-2006).]

I love "christians", real christians, my parents are catholic as is my girlfriend, and at its core it is a very solid belief system and as a buddhist and former catholic I can appreciate the teachings of yoshua ben yosef. But when god afflicts people with a condition like pedoplilia which causes them to creat victims, he's playing with dice(sorry einstein), God is taking a chance that this person will either A: believe and be cured, or B: remain a heathen and victimize the most vulnerable among us. This is one of the reasons why i left the catholic faith, if God makes people sinners and then damns them for their sins it makes god a hippocrate. Words of Jesus>Actions of God

quote:Originally posted by VictimKing:

I've got a better question; If God is all forgiving, then how come there is no way out of Hell?

In Taoism, there are 9 stages of Hell, and you can work your way into Heaven through prayer...why is this not true for Christianity? I was born and raised Catholic, and wish I wasn't...In my opininon it's one of the worst religions and 15 years of it has driven me insane...

because ultimatly God (including allah and yahweh) is not very forgiving. You get infinite oppurtunities for forgiveness while you live. Im not trying to recruit for buddhism, evangelism is not one of our lay practices, but i think that infinite lives withwhich to rectify your wrong doings. is a better deal, plus if everyone is christians then they can be total fuckups and be forgiven for a lifetime of mortal sins thru a few hail marys. imagine a religion that can rationalize the actions of a sociopath

quote:Originally posted by -Morb-:

That makes sense, except is there any recorded case of that happening? I've never heard of anyone being cured by God when it comes to this. I've heard of cancer victims who claim to have been miraculously cured, but never pedophiles. And I've heard of pedophiles who claim to pray to God every day to become cured of their condition.

The curse of pedophilia seems to be a particularly unfair one for God to afflict anyone with. There's no option open for the individual that doesn't end in horrible tragedy.

Pedophilic tendencies are usually the result of repeated sexual molestation as a child. If a kid is molested frequently at a very young age, there's a chance (it's not 100% guaranteed) that he--yes, most pedophiles are male--may grow up to be a child molester himself.

If you're going to attempt to answer the question, O Christians, at least don't blather on vaguely about "salvation" and "changing a person's life" rather than offering some evidence that pedophiles can be reformed. In other words, be helpful.

[This message has been edited by Reverend Abnormal (edited 03-22-2006).]

I am not dumb so stop picking on me I simply dont agree so stop being so close minded.

so, in england the age of consent is 16, and in hawaii the age of consent is 13, in reality the age of consent is when the girl starts her period, it's different for every person, some girls don't start their period until 15-16, some start as early as 12-13.

i think there is no "sin" involved unless it is sex without consent. i mean, if a girl is old enough to want sex, she's old enough to have sex.

if you are attracted to prepubescent girls you are wrong in the head. there is probably no real "cure" for it. apart from maybe just sorting your own life/mind out.

there are the crazy cases you hear about, the fuckups who rape 2 year old boys and girls. the only cure for that is prison, or whatever punishment society deems apropriate execution etc.

or the fate worse than death, broadmoor institution for the criminally insane.

Jesus, you people are ignorant.

"Homosexuals are healed" ... HEALED?

Are you fucking stupid? Homosexuals are not "healed" in any way by religious counseling or any of the sort. Instead they suppress their feelings and try to be something they aren't (i.e., straight), creating all kinds of internal conflict, anxiety, depression, and often suicidal feelings. Many so-called "cured" homosexuals eventually commit suicide because they've been brainwashed by assholes like you into thinking that their feelings are unnatural and evil, and they can no longer live with themselves.

This is why I can't stand you fucking conservative Christian wackjobs. You spout your ignorance and viciously attack anyone who has different views, feelings, or values. Whether you attack physically or verbally doesn't matter; either way it's hateful and evil and never helps anyone.

You can smile smugly and spout your rhetoric all you want; you're still an obnoxious, ignorant, close-minded hypocrite with nothing better to do than rant and rave about things you barely understand, and fall back on "GOD SAYS SO" whenever someone challenges you to explain anything.

Well, if homosexuals feel so bad, maybe they should just eliminate themselves from such a pained existence.

quote:Originally posted by Reverend Abnormal:

You can smile smugly and spout your rhetoric all you want; you're still an obnoxious, ignorant, close-minded hypocrite with nothing better to do than rant and rave about things you barely understand, and fall back on "GOD SAYS SO" whenever someone challenges you to explain anything.

Challenge me to explain something then, but keep an open mind. (and lets be nice theres no reason to call people names http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif))

quote:Originally posted by Reverend Abnormal:

This is why I can't stand you fucking conservative Christian wackjobs. You spout your ignorance and viciously attack anyone who has different views, feelings, or values. Whether you attack physically or verbally doesn't matter; either way it's hateful and evil and never helps anyone.

CHRISTIANS physically and/or verbally attack people with different viewpoints? *lol*

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

I wasn't aware child molestation was classified as a mental illness, but if someone is saved, while they arn't free of depression, they would be a lot less likley to fall into it, because they can turn to Jesus. I havn't heard of anyone who was a child molester being saved and cured either, but theres alot i don't know. I also beleive that God is powerful enough to work in their lives and cure them. Its like homosexuals, they never stop looking at the same sex, but with the help of God they overcome their desires.



Wasn't the spokesman for Focus on the Family's gay program spotted at a gay bar after he was cured?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atomical:

[B] Until you can prove that the American Psychological Association is actively treating bestiality as a mental illness what I have said stands.



"Zoophilia is classified as a paraphilia, a type of sexual disorder."

http://www.oneonta.edu/academics/ssr/Deviance%20Online.pdf

[This message has been edited by hyroglyphx (edited 03-23-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



"Zoophilia is classified as a paraphilia, a type of sexual disorder."

http:/ /www.oneon ta.edu/academics/ssr/Deviance%20Online.pdf (http: //www.oneo nta.edu/ac ademics/ss r/Deviance %20Online. pdf)



Strawman.

1. That paper is not written or endorsed by the American Psychological Association and thus doesn't even come close to addressing what I said.

2. That paper has absolutely no mention of the APA.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Zoophilia

quote:

The activity or desire itself is no longer classified as a pathology under DSM-IV (TR) (the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association) unless accompanied by distress or interference with normal functioning on the part of the person.

A Pedophile can successfully resist harming children. Although it is more difficult for them to resist then it is for normal people who do not wish to harm children at all. If it could not be successfully resisted they could not be charged.

quote:Originally posted by -Morb-:



Suicide I know is the ultimate mortal sin, and is never an option according to Christianity.

I like to try and understand Christianity.



Worse than genocide, rape, mass murder?

Christianity is as retarded as the tooth fairy. Let it like, you die, get over it, you cant live without that ugly bastard death looming over your shoulder as is the nature of life so dont cling to a bunch of stories to make yourself feel better and you can pressure governments to caving to your will because "RELIGION" is protected by human rights. This isnt particularly directed at MORB.

I know 5 year olds who worked out religion is bullshit.

There are paedophiles who never touch a kid. Paedophilia is not a disease to be "cured", it is a mental disorder, often stemming from child hood abuse. Untill hundreds of people every day stop dying needlessly from starvation maybe you should worry about something slightly more important than whether it is right for a molestor to kill himself.

any christians/spiritualist out there. please, READ THE BIBLE, not some shitty translation by some shitty anally retentive preacher guy, the original, or as close to as you can get. If you manage to make it all the way through you will know, even if you still have a vain hope at immortality, you will KNOW christianity is bullshit. You'd think they'd get their stories straight before making a book.

"I've never heard of anyone being cured by God when it comes to this. I've heard of cancer victims who claim to have been miraculously cured, but never pedophiles."

Why would god cure cancer patients but not "cure" dangerous paedophiles.

"There's no option open for the individual that doesn't end in horrible tragedy."

How about not to molest kids? How weak does your willpower have to be not to rape someone? I do it every day, its not hard.

Also, can i clarify, NO ONE HERE IS A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST. You would not be on totse , or even own a computer if you were. You would be giving aid to orphans in africa or somewhere. People go on about sin all the time but in reality if the bible is to believed there is gonna be about 3 people in heaven. Although apparently you can be a murderer and repent and god will forgive you.

I really dont know why i am bothering. you will say i am "closed minded" or some other lame ass platitude and I will think you're all retards.

I was under the impression that worshipping another God is the ultimate sin if there is one.

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

I was under the impression that worshipping another God is the ultimate sin if there is one.

As I understand Catholicism, suicide is the only unforgivable sin.

-Mephisto-, my only purpose with this thread was to understand better how Christianity deals with the subject of pedophiles. I am not a Christian myself, and I am not interested in hearing yet another screed about how it's all bullshit (hence my title asking for Christians to comment).

Thanks to those who made good posts here, I think I have a better understanding now.

quote:Originally posted by super chick:

I am not dumb so stop picking on me I simply dont agree so stop being so close minded.

I'm the one who is being closeminded? Are you kidding me?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

And when did I ever speak to you about beastiality? You must be thinking about someone else.

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

Strawman.

1. That paper is not written or endorsed by the American Psychological Association and thus doesn't even come close to addressing what I said.

2. That paper has absolutely no mention of the APA.

htt p://encycl opedia.the freedictionary.com/Zoophilia (http: //encyclop edia.thefr eedictiona ry.com/Zoo philia)



The activity or desire itself is no longer classified as a pathology under DSM-IV (TR) (the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association) unless accompanied by distress or interference with normal functioning on the part of the person.



http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=11824

http://www.addictionz.com/addictions.htm

http://facultyfp.salisbury.edu/iewhite/Sexual%20Disorders.htm

http://www.zoophilia.net/secretlife.php

I guess I'm a little shocked that you think Zoophilia is perfectly acceptable behavior speaking from a moral point of view, whether we are speaking about Christian ethics or anything else. Do you honestly believe that a sexual desire for animals exists in mentally healthy people?

When you're losing a debate why not try to redirect by posting irrelevant bullshit from unscholarly sites and hoping I take the bait? For your benefit I'll critique the websites you posted since you've already lost the former argument:



quote: http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=11824



My first issue with this site is that it's a commercial site. My second issue is that it's out dated:

quote:

Last Editorial Review: 11/30/1999 8:49:00 PM



My third issue is that the definition presented here contradicts the "Sexual Disorders" site you posted:

Medterms defines paraphilia as "deviant sexual behavior". However, facultyfp.salisbury.edu says that paraphilia is a disorder:

quote:

Disorders of sexual preference: paraphilias, or fetishes



Which is it?

quote: http://www.addictionz.com/



This is a local community group and is not scholarly research. This would be akin to linking to geocities.

Check this out:

quote:

Carries a great deal of guilt and shame in today's religious society



It appears religion is the problem!

quote: http://www.zoophilia.net/secretlife.php



This is truly hilarious (I've actually read this before and it helped me form my current opinion on beastiality). The one website that you post that appears to be a thesis statement, possibly used for inclusion in a scholarly journal, doesn't say that bestiality is a disorder. I'm assuming you went to this site and saw "The Secret Life of Zoophiles" and thought that it would be anti-beastiality. Wrong.

When you're losing a debate why not try to redirect by posting irrelevant bullshit from unscholarly sites and hoping I take the bait? For your benefit I'll critique the websites you posted since you've already lost the former argument:

You've already fallen for the bait if you believe that Zoophilia is perfectly acceptable behavior. Case in point: Statutory rape is instituted because the child is not of age to make sound decisions for life. If you agree that molesting animals is okay, without their consent, then you think molesting children is okay without their consent. Even PETA doesn't agree with zoophilia.

http://www.helpinganimals.com/automation2/AlertItem.asp?id=1619

My first issue with this site is that it's a commercial site. My second issue is that it's out dated:

1999 is outdated? You think massive studies have gone on concerning zoophiles since this time. If 1999 is outdated, then so is anything else prior than this time. That includes Einsteins theories as well as Freud's and Kinsey's theories concerning sexual behavior.

My third issue is that the definition presented here contradicts the "Sexual Disorders" site you posted:

You know, the difference between a sexual disorder and deviant behavior is inconsequential. I happen to believe that zoophilia is not a disorder, meaning, the adherents can help themselves. I happen to believe that it is a willful choice that they engage in. The point you were looking for, is that no pyschologist deems it a disorder when some of them do. And their documentation comes from legitimate studies, not bunk science.

Carries a great deal of guilt and shame in today's religious society

As well it should. And it carries a stigma in the secular world as well. I've never met anyone that defended zoophilia except you. Why? Because those who engage in it are clandestine because its a shameful and pathetic act.

It appears religion is the problem!

Then maybe you should drop your religion and have true relationship with God. Religion always separates us from God. This isn't a shocking revelation.

This is truly hilarious (I've actually read this before and it helped me form my current opinion on beastiality). The one website that you post that appears to be a thesis statement, possibly used for inclusion in a scholarly journal, doesn't say that bestiality is a disorder. I'm assuming you went to this site and saw "The Secret Life of Zoophiles" and thought that it would be anti-beastiality. Wrong.

I did read it. And its a support group for zoophiles. Read what they talk about. They know what they are doing is wrong, but they look to garner support from people who might agree with their position so they can continue in it and drop the shame they feel. There is no need for a support network when you are doing the right thing. Case in point: I don't need a support group for urinating because its a perfectly natural thing that has no stigma.

Bottom line: If you are a Christian as you say, then you shouldn't support the propagation of beastiality. Does that mean we turn away the zoophile? Certainly not! However, we don't placate them and pretend that they are engaging in healthy behavior. Do you understand the difference?

Let me ask you one more question. Are you a zoophile? If you are, you can tell us, because if there is nothing wrong with it then you should have no qualms with telling us. So, Atomical, serious question. Are you a zoophile? Is that we you are defending it?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



Case in point: Statutory rape is instituted because the child is not of age to make sound decisions for life. If you agree that molesting animals is okay, without their consent, then you think molesting children is okay without their consent.

I don't support Zoophilia at all, but that has to be the one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever read.

By your logic, the fact that someone doesn't see a problem with killing roaches or other household pests means he doesn't see a problem with killing children... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Animals do not have the same rights as humans (arguably, they can't even have rights). To find something acceptable when done to animals does not equal finding it acceptable when done to humans.

Try something else, because ludicrous statements such as that one don't help your case.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 04-11-2006).]

When you're losing a debate why not try to redirect by posting irrelevant bullshit from unscholarly sites and hoping I take the bait? For your benefit I'll critique the websites you posted since you've already lost the former argument:

You've already fallen for the bait if you believe that Zoophilia is perfectly acceptable behavior. Case in point: Statutory rape is instituted because the child is not of age to make sound decisions for life. If you agree that molesting animals is okay, without their consent, then you think molesting children is okay without their consent. Even PETA doesn't agree with zoophilia.

http://www.helpinganimals.com/automation2/AlertItem.asp?id=1619

My first issue with this site is that it's a commercial site. My second issue is that it's out dated:

1999 is outdated? You think massive studies have gone on concerning zoophiles since this time. If 1999 is outdated, then so is anything else prior than this time. That includes Einsteins theories as well as Freud's and Kinsey's theories concerning sexual behavior.

My third issue is that the definition presented here contradicts the "Sexual Disorders" site you posted:

You know, the difference between a sexual disorder and deviant behavior is inconsequential. I happen to believe that zoophilia is not a disorder, meaning, the adherents can help themselves. I happen to believe that it is a willful choice that they engage in. The point you were looking for, is that no pyschologist deems it a disorder when some of them do. And their documentation comes from legitimate studies, not bunk science.

Carries a great deal of guilt and shame in today's religious society

As well it should. And it carries a stigma in the secular world as well. I've never met anyone that defended zoophilia except you. Why? Because those who engage in it are clandestine because its a shameful and pathetic act.

It appears religion is the problem!

Then maybe you should drop your religion and have true relationship with God. Religion always separates us from God. This isn't a shocking revelation.

This is truly hilarious (I've actually read this before and it helped me form my current opinion on beastiality). The one website that you post that appears to be a thesis statement, possibly used for inclusion in a scholarly journal, doesn't say that bestiality is a disorder. I'm assuming you went to this site and saw "The Secret Life of Zoophiles" and thought that it would be anti-beastiality. Wrong.

I did read it. And its a support group for zoophiles. Read what they talk about. They know what they are doing is wrong, but they look to garner support from people who might agree with their position so they can continue in it and drop the shame they feel. There is no need for a support network when you are doing the right thing. Case in point: I don't need a support group for urinating because its a perfectly natural thing that has no stigma.

Bottom line: If you are a Christian as you say, then you shouldn't support the propagation of beastiality. Does that mean we turn away the zoophile? Certainly not! However, we don't placate them and pretend that they are engaging in healthy behavior. Do you understand the difference?

Let me ask you one more question. Are you a zoophile? If you are, you can tell us, because if there is nothing wrong with it then you should have no qualms with telling us. So, Atomical, serious question. Are you a zoophile? Is that we you are defending it?

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You've already fallen for the bait if you believe that Zoophilia is perfectly acceptable behavior.



Forgive me for asking, but where did I say that?

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1999 is outdated? You think massive studies have gone on concerning zoophiles since this time. If 1999 is outdated, then so is anything else prior than this time. That includes Einsteins theories as well as Freud's and Kinsey's theories concerning sexual behavior.



It's relatively close in years to the time the APA stopped classifying it as a disorder. So yes it's outdated. Who knows how old the definition is. It only tells you when it was last edited.



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You know, the difference between a sexual disorder and deviant behavior is inconsequential.



No it is consequential, unless you purposely mislead me to think it wasn't by replying. You couldn't even prove beastiality is a disorder, much less classified as one by the APA. It appears you have dropped that line altogether and conceded.

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I happen to believe that zoophilia is not a disorder, meaning, the adherents can help themselves. I happen to believe that it is a willful choice that they engage in. The point you were looking for, is that no pyschologist deems it a disorder when some of them do. And their documentation comes from legitimate studies, not bunk science.



Now you're putting words into my mouth. I have never said that I think every psychologist believes that beastiality is not a disorder. Certainly some must have thought it was a disorder if the previous opinion of the APA classified it as a disorder!

Legitimate studies?

http://www.oneonta.edu/academics/ssr/Deviance%20Online.pdf

You call a research paper on internet porn a legitimate study?



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Then maybe you should drop your religion and have true relationship with God. Religion always separates us from God. This isn't a shocking revelation.



This doesn't involve me remember?

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I did read it. And its a support group for zoophiles. Read what they talk about. They know what they are doing is wrong, but they look to garner support from people who might agree with their position so they can continue in it and drop the shame they feel.



You're completely wrong.

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While I was at the gathering, in May of 1996, I took the opportunity to conduct two focus groups. In a focus group participants engage in an open discussion about a specific topic, in this case -- bestiality and zoophilia. It's sort of a brainstorming process, which I used to get ideas for what to ask in my questionnaire.

The first group met for an hour and included 13 men. The second group met for an hour and a half and included 11 men and one woman. Every participant signed a consent form allowing me to tape the discussion and use their comments (anonymously) in my book. I would like to share some of their comments, so you get a flavor of the way these zoos think and the issues that are on their minds.





This group was set up specifically for research. There was no "support" involved or that would have tainted the study, which obviously you think has some merit because you posted the link.



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There is no need for a support network when you are doing the right thing. Case in point: I don't need a support group for urinating because its a perfectly natural thing that has no stigma.



Just because something is stigmatized doesn't mean it's wrong. Is depression wrong? Should people feel bad about having depression? This is ridiculous.



quote:

Bottom line: If you are a Christian as you say, then you shouldn't support the propagation of beastiality. Does that mean we turn away the zoophile? Certainly not! However, we don't placate them and pretend that they are engaging in healthy behavior. Do you understand the difference?



This fucking debate has nothing to do with whether or not I'm a christian or whether or not I support beastiality. I suspect the reason why you keep bringing up my personal beliefs is because you want to "gain the advantage" and use ad hom.

quote:

Let me ask you one more question. Are you a zoophile? If you are, you can tell us, because if there is nothing wrong with it then you should have no qualms with telling us. So, Atomical, serious question. Are you a zoophile? Is that we you are defending it?



I have defended the idea of beastiality as a disorder. I think this comparison is especially valid because not all things that are immoral qualify as a disorder and not all things that quality as a disorder are immoral. You're clearly mixing things up and that is what I addressed.

EDIT: grammar, :P

[This message has been edited by Atomical (edited 04-11-2006).]