Are there any argument against Islam and the Qur'an that Muslims can't answer, like contradictions, hate, etc.

I don't think there are any Muslims here to defend their faith.

There are contradictions in every faith, but it is unlikely that any member of that faith would be willing to accept these contradictions. Its faith, you can't defeat it with logic.

Unlike Christianity, Islam is very solid. Anything you tyry to use against them will be destroyed because you don't fully understand it.

I agree, it is very tough to contradict a Muslim, I've tried on http://www.ummah.com/forum/ . I don't know if Islam is a religion of peace or not, but those guys certainly know how to back themselves up. A new born baby could shatter Christianity.

This guy was pretty good: http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

He kept winning debate, after debate, after debate.

However, he eventually got pwnd, props to islam. http://www.answering-christianity.com/prophet_of_doom_book_rebuttal.htm

By the way, ShqipTar defends himself VERY well, I respect him a lot.

Most Muslims wouldn't recognise him as a Muslim anyway.

The most Islamic thing ShqipTar does is believe in Allah and pray 5 times a day (well, he's a Muslim, I should hope he does). He ignores the majority of the Qur'an - the central text of the Islamic religion, showing ALLAH's word. And he also ignores half the pillars of Islam.

He's no less Muslim for what he does than a christian that is just as liberal about their religion. Don't give me any of this PURE christian or PURE Muslim junk. You either are one or you aren't. Besides, wouldn't you like it if more Muslims were like him?

Some people would refer to him as a "non-practicing Muslim". I was called taht before I just stopped saying I was Muslim.

quote:Originally posted by Ben Dover and Phil McCock:

The most Islamic thing ShqipTar does is believe in Allah and pray 5 times a day (well, he's a Muslim, I should hope he does). He ignores the majority of the Qur'an - the central text of the Islamic religion, showing ALLAH's word. And he also ignores half the pillars of Islam.

Rofl what the fuck is with all the haters lately.

1. Iman/Faith. Shahada, check.

2. Salah/Prayer. 5 times a day, check.

3. Zakah/Charity. Both money and time, check.

4. Sam/Fasting/Ramadan. Check.

5. Haj/Pilgrimage. Not yet completed.

I only ignore one of the five pillars of Islam and I have the rest of my life to complete that, quit acting like you know me. What majority of the Quran is it that you feel I'm ignoring?

I'm guessing it's stereotypes.

Yes, there are many. Some interesting ones include who Abraham almost sacrificed: Isaac or Ishmael:

Bible: Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac. (Genesis 22:1-12)

Koran: Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael. (Surah 37:100-112)

Muslims can only argue that the Christian/Jewish Bible was changed but infact we have copies older than the Koran to disprove this baseless aquisation.

There are actually many discrepancies in the Koran compared to the earlier Old Testiment/New Tesiment, for example:

Bible: Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat. (Genesis 8:4)

Koran: Noah's ark landed on Mt. Judi. (Surah 11:44)

Bible: Abraham's father was Terah. (Genesis 11:31)

Koran: Abraham's father was Azar. (Surah 6:74)

Bible: Pharaoh's daughter adopted Moses. (Exodus 2:1-10)

Koran: Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses. (Surah 28:8-9)

Bible: Abraham lived in the Valley of Hebron. (Genesis 13:18, 23:2, 35:27)

Koran: Abraham lived in Mecca. (Surah 14:37)

Some mistakes in the Koran are:

Mary (Jesus' mother) was Moses sister. (Surah 19:28)

Earth created first. (Surah 2:29)

Heavens created first. (Surah 70:27-30)

Creation took six days. (Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59)

Creation took eight days. (Surah 41:9-12)

All angels obey Allah. (Surah 16:49-50)

Not all angels obey Allah. (Surah 2:34)



Don't forget Mohammed was illerate after all. If your a religious Christian or Jew there's a lot of evidence that the "angel Gabriel (Jibril)" who dictated the Koran was really Satan. If you're not religious then there's lots of evidence Mohammed corrupted the Bible because he could not actually read it. Some other interesting ones include the whole Satanic Verses episode where the Koran orignally said that there was more than one God but was later changed. Please do your own research into the Satanic Verses controvesy its too detailed to go into here sorry.

Then theres the whole why did the Koran originally say to pray to Jerusalem when later this was changed to Mecca thing:

Face Mecca while praying. (Surah 2:115, 144)

Face Jerusalem while praying. (Surah 2:115, 144)

Also, muslims love this line from the Koran supporting zionism; The Qur'an relates the words by which Moses ordered the Israelites to conquer the Land:

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]

Moreover - and those who try to use Islam as a weapon against Israel always conveniently ignore this point - the Holy Qur'an explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment - where it says: "And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/koranzionist.html

But my own personal favorite arguments are why, if Jesus is a Muslim prophet and as Christians are "people of the book" (being the bible) in Islam, Muslims do no study the Books of Jesus (Gospels) yet in Sharia Law a Muslim convert to Christianity is given the seath penalty (such as the one currently on trial in Afganistan) for merely believing in a book the muslims are meant to treat as holy.

The same goes for Moses who is meant to be a Muslim prophet too, but when was the last time you heard of a muslim quoting or reading from the books of Moses (Torah) even though the very foundation for respecting Moses's prophet status in Islam is precisely because he wrote (or received from God) these 5 books.

Remember the Koran also states:

"Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends"

(Surah 5:51)

*Illiterate (sorry its late here)

quote:Don't forget Mohammed was illerate after all. If your a religious Christian or Jew there's a lot of evidence that the "angel Gabriel (Jibril)" who dictated the Koran was really Satan. If you're not religious then there's lots of evidence Mohammed corrupted the Bible because he could not actually read it. Some other interesting ones include the whole Satanic Verses episode where the Koran orignally said that there was more than one God but was later changed. Please do your own research into the Satanic Verses controvesy its too detailed to go into here sorry.

Rofl! Yeah, since Mohammad couldn't read the bible he decided to 'corrupt' it by writing the Quran. Answer me this, what evidence do you have that Jesus himself wasn't illiterate? The bible was NOT written by Jesus, it wasn't even written when Jesus was alive.

quote:Moreover - and those who try to use Islam as a weapon against Israel I don't try and use Islam as a weapon against Israel.

quote:But my own personal favorite arguments are why, if Jesus is a Muslim prophet and as Christians are "people of the book" (being the bible) in Islam, Muslims do no study the Books of Jesus (Gospels) yet in Sharia Law a Muslim convert to Christianity is given the seath penalty (such as the one currently on trial in Afganistan) for merely believing in a book the muslims are meant to treat as holy.

The same goes for Moses who is meant to be a Muslim prophet too, but when was the last time you heard of a muslim quoting or reading from the books of Moses (Torah) even though the very foundation for respecting Moses's prophet status in Islam is precisely because he wrote (or received from God) these 5 books.

Remember the Koran also states:

Probally because at least the Quran is the most up to date word of God, and at worse the Bible/Torah ARE themselves corrupted and full of bullshit.

quote:"Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends"

(Surah 5:51) You conveniantly leave out half the statemeant, don't you? It says do not take Jews and Christians for friends, because they only are only friends of each other. Given the US and Israel current cooperative rape and pillage of Muslims, it seems to me good advice.

quote:Yusuf Ali:

[005:051] O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

This is representitive of all of the 'contradictions' in the Quran that you posted, you twist the words by leaving out half the statemeant, you twist them through incorrect translations. Its been gone over a hundred times, so I'll just post a link;

http://www.answering-christianity.com/answering_islam_articles_rebuttals.htm

quote:Originally posted by groovyruby:

...



The problem with most of those is that you have to accept the bible as fact to actually believe them. From an Atheist standpoint, an article that disagrees with the Bible isn't really a big deal. After all, the bible WAS written, re-written, mistranslated, etc. by up to over 40 different people/groups. List more self-contradictions and whatnot.

quote:Originally posted by ShqipTAR:

This is representitive of all of the 'contradictions' in the Quran that you posted, you twist the words by leaving out half the statemeant, you twist them through incorrect translations. Its been gone over a hundred times, so I'll just post a link;

http://www.answering-christianity.com/answering_islam_articles_rebuttals.htm (http: //www.answ ering-chri stianity.c om/answeri ng_islam_a rticles_re buttals.ht m)

Haha I have a quran but I'm too lazy to read it..

quote:Originally posted by Zay:

Haha I have a quran but I'm too lazy to read it..

You should, there pretty good/funny stories. Allthough I guess you have to read about exactly what Mohammad was doing while he wrote the Quran to truely appreciate it.. Same with the bible actually, in paticular when Noah gets raped.

quote:Originally posted by Ben Dover and Phil McCock:

Are there any argument against Islam and the Qur'an that Muslims can't answer, like contradictions, hate, etc.

There are good arguments against any religion which holds an omnipotent/omniscient god exists. Epicurus's argument hasn't been answered succesfully since he brought it up 2,300+ years ago.

quote:Bible: Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac. (Genesis 22:1-12)

Koran: Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael. (Surah 37:100-112)

My Quran says Isaac.

The fact that the Quran is still written and generally only accepted in Arabic is a sign of it being more closely related to the original than anything. The fact is that the Torah and Bible have been translated and retranslated hundreds of times. Anyone who has taken a language class knows that there is ALWAYS something lost in translation.

For people to take an ENGLISH copy of the Bible literally are just completely deluding themselves.

I was going to reply to your other statements, but ShqipTAR got to it before me. You're taking things out of context.

quote:Originally posted by ShqipTAR:

Rofl! Yeah, since Mohammad couldn't read the bible he decided to 'corrupt' it by writing the Quran. Answer me this, what evidence do you have that Jesus himself wasn't illiterate? The bible was NOT written by Jesus, it wasn't even written when Jesus was alive.



Okay, here we go...

At the time Jesus and his family were ready to leave Egypt to go back to Nazareth, he was well in the age for Mitzvah. Being that he was Jewish and was seen at temple talking to the clergy there about God's Law, it's safe to assume that he went through schooling by the clergy for Mitzvah. Or as the Bible suggests, he might have schooled the clergy.

If you believe the Quran is more credible because its a more recent inspiration by God, then you would say the texts at nag hammadi have more credibility because they are more recent than the bible and quran. One of the texts was specifically for the childhood of Jesus in egypt, which says he learned how to read and write in greek as would most children at that time in that area.

You are the first muslim I have seen that types Jesus' name without saying pbuh after. I thought muslims are suppose to do that? Isn't Jesus a prophet in Islam?

OK them me answer ShqipTAR;

His first argument;

"Rofl! Yeah, since Mohammad couldn't read the bible he decided to 'corrupt' it by writing the Quran. Answer me this, what evidence do you have that Jesus himself wasn't illiterate? The bible was NOT written by Jesus, it wasn't even written when Jesus was alive."

1. He admits Mohammed was illiterate.

2. Like so many muslims (or Muslim apologists) he does not tackle the actual argument but presents his own attack on christianity (e.g. well Islams not so bad because according to him Christianity is just as bad) but actually Jesus is referred to as a "Nagar" in the Gospels which is the aramaic for Teacher (or later Rabbi, which means teacher in Hebrew whereas Nagar is Aramaic) and it was the duty of all teachers (Rabbis) and even all Jewish Males to read the Bible so Jesus was 100% proven to be literate on any count. However this does not matter as ShqipTAR points out correctly that Jesus didn't write the gospels thus making his original points meaningless.

"I don't try and use Islam as a weapon against Israel."

3. Well maybe Shqiptar (to his credit) doesn't but Hamas, Hezballah, Islamic Jihad and Al Quida do.

"Probally because at least the Quran is the most up to date word of God, and at worse the Bible/Torah ARE themselves corrupted and full of bullshit."

4. This is the funniest and most ironic of Shqiptar as its exactly what I state in my original argument "Muslims can only argue that the Christian/Jewish Bible was changed but infact we have copies older than the Koran to disprove this baseless aquisation" (which he doesn't address) Muslims say, proving either I am correct because he has no legitimate counter argument or Shqiptar failed to read my post correctly making his purely defensive and unthoughtout rebuttels pointless (as is usually the case with Muslims addressing this issue as is my orginal argument)

"You conveniantly leave out half the statemeant, don't you? It says do not take Jews and Christians for friends, because they only are only friends of each other. Given the US and Israel current cooperative rape and pillage of Muslims, it seems to me good advice."

5. Notice admits its true and tries to justify it further making my point for me by even agreeing with it.

"This is representitive of all of the 'contradictions' in the Quran that you posted, you twist the words by leaving out half the statemeant, you twist them through incorrect translations. Its been gone over a hundred times"

6. Ok provide us with a legitimate translation sanctioned by Islam. Oh I forgot Muslims will not let the Koran be translated in a language except Arabic.

As for malaria lets look at his points;

"My Quran says Isaac."

1. Lets ask ShqipTAR to answer who Abraham almost sacrificed; Isaac or Ismael.?

"The fact that the Quran is still written and generally only accepted in Arabic is a sign of it being more closely related to the original than anything. The fact is that the Torah and Bible have been translated and retranslated hundreds of times. Anyone who has taken a language class knows that there is ALWAYS something lost in translation."



2. This is 100% untrue as Jews study the Old Testiment in Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek Orthodox Christians in the original Ancient Greek of the New Testiment.

It also fails to address my original point that we have copies of books of the Bible older than the Koran (for instance the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi books)

quote:Originally posted by ShqipTAR:

Originally posted by Zay:

Haha I have a quran but I'm too lazy to read it..

You should, there pretty good/funny stories. Allthough I guess you have to read about exactly what Mohammad was doing while he wrote the Quran to truely appreciate it.. Same with the bible actually, in paticular when Noah gets raped.

Allah willing I should get my Quran soon. What should I read first?

im actually skeptical about shqiptar's "Islamocity." (i dont know what to call it) just the fact that he writes jesus' name without saying pbuh ("peace be upon him" something that should follow every prophet name mentioning). that and he has mentioned that he is fond of East Oakland here in California, which is a town that probably is within the top 5 towns that contributes to this countries high rate of homicide. muslims are, supposedly, peaceful people and would condemn that way of life in oakland. at least all of the muslims i've met would.

trust me, colleges over here in california are full of muslims, i have met quite a bit.

quote:Originally posted by postdiluvium:

At the time Jesus and his family were ready to leave Egypt to go back to Nazareth, he was well in the age for Mitzvah. Being that he was Jewish and was seen at temple talking to the clergy there about God's Law, it's safe to assume that he went through schooling by the clergy for Mitzvah. Or as the Bible suggests, he might have schooled the clergy. Ehh you Jews and your academia... If you say so. We still both know that Jesus didn't write the bible, and that he wasn't even alive when it was. Only like 10% of the bible even includes direct sayings from Jesus.

quote:If you believe the Quran is more credible because its a more recent inspiration by God, then you would say the texts at nag hammadi have more credibility because they are more recent than the bible and quran. One of the texts was specifically for the childhood of Jesus in egypt, which says he learned how to read and write in greek as would most children at that time in that area. Hows that?

quote:You are the first muslim I have seen that types Jesus' name without saying pbuh after. I thought muslims are suppose to do that? Isn't Jesus a prophet in Islam? I'm such a bad mother fucker.

quote:1. He admits Mohammed was illiterate.

2. Like so many muslims (or Muslim apologists) he does not tackle the actual argument but presents his own attack on christianity (e.g. well Islams not so bad because according to him Christianity is just as bad) but actually Jesus is referred to as a "Nagar" in the Gospels which is the aramaic for Teacher (or later Rabbi, which means teacher in Hebrew whereas Nagar is Aramaic) and it was the duty of all teachers (Rabbis) and even all Jewish Males to read the Bible so Jesus was 100% proven to be literate on any count. However this does not matter as ShqipTAR points out correctly that Jesus didn't write the gospels thus making his original points meaningless.

1. When it has it not been admitted and embraced that Mohammad was illiterate? I think that alone is proof that Allah wrote the Quran, there is no other other document in the world, including the bible, so poetic as the Quran. No one has ever produced a single chapter like it, if literate 'educated' people can't produce a SINGLE chapter, then how can an illiterate man?

2.The actual point was pretty retarded is why. Like I said above, there is next to no way an illiterate man could write the Quran.

quote:3. Well maybe Shqiptar (to his credit) doesn't but Hamas, Hezballah, Islamic Jihad and Al Quida do.

Plenty of Christian and Jewish groups do the same to Muslims, quit pointing fingers.

quote:4. This is the funniest and most ironic of Shqiptar as its exactly what I state in my original argument "Muslims can only argue that the Christian/Jewish Bible was changed but infact we have copies older than the Koran to disprove this baseless aquisation" (which he doesn't address) Muslims say, proving either I am correct because he has no legitimate counter argument or Shqiptar failed to read my post correctly making his purely defensive and unthoughtout rebuttels pointless (as is usually the case with Muslims addressing this issue as is my orginal argument) Your post wasn't anything new, its annoying to argue the same thing over and over, they've been debunked on the link I posted. As a Muslim, the only scriptures I recognize is the Books of Moses, and the Gospel. Jesus was a prophet, and not God, because there is one and only God, and he was never crucified or otherwise killed, but uplifted into heaven. You might have older bibles then Qurans but that doesn't matter because they are incorrect. As it says in the Quran;

quote:Yusuf Ali:

[005:041] O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

and

quote:

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461

"Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"



quote:6. Ok provide us with a legitimate translation sanctioned by Islam. Oh I forgot Muslims will not let the Koran be translated in a language except Arabic. It is translated, but translations can never be relied upon.

quote:1. Lets ask ShqipTAR to answer who Abraham almost sacrificed; Isaac or Ismael.? http://tinyurl.com/kn7g2

quote:Originally posted by postdiluvium:

im actually skeptical about shqiptar's "Islamocity." (i dont know what to call it) just the fact that he writes jesus' name without saying pbuh ("peace be upon him" something that should follow every prophet name mentioning). that and he has mentioned that he is fond of East Oakland here in California, which is a town that probably is within the top 5 towns that contributes to this countries high rate of homicide. muslims are, supposedly, peaceful people and would condemn that way of life in oakland. at least all of the muslims i've met would.

trust me, colleges over here in california are full of muslims, i have met quite a bit.

My Islamocity? I'm Albanian, I was raised Bektashi-Muslim, and I'm also an initiate in the orders of Qadiriyah and Naqshbandi. When I moved to America one of the places I lived in was East Oakland, I have a grip of friends in the ESO.

quote:As for malaria lets look at his points;

"My Quran says Isaac."

1. Lets ask ShqipTAR to answer who Abraham almost sacrificed; Isaac or Ismael.?

Why don't you just LOOK at a Quran? It sounds like you got these off an anti-islam (probably Christian) website. You could've just opened up the book and read it yourself.

quote:2. This is 100% untrue as Jews study the Old Testiment in Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek Orthodox Christians in the original Ancient Greek of the New Testiment.

The Torah/OT was an oral tradition. I think that is enough said about that. And like ShqipTAR said, the NT was written many years after the dead of Jesus. How is that an accurate source?

quote:It also fails to address my original point that we have copies of books of the Bible older than the Koran (for instance the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi books)

Christian churches don't even accept the DS scrolls or any other books. What do you say about the other gospels which were left out? The fact is that the NT was SELECTED to be that way, whereas the Quran has always been in this form.

quote:Oh I forgot Muslims will not let the Koran be translated in a language except Arabic.

This made me laugh. The reason it's not supposed to be translated is because something will be lost in translation. This is what I was talking about with the Torah and NT. Translation after translation after translation = new and different meaning.

Once again I stand by my points.

You will notice that these muslims do not address the actual points but sidestep the debate.

A normal tactic of muslims in debates is to not address the point instead to make an aquisation of their own.

Again lets look at Shitttard's rebuttel first to another poster on this board;

Ehh you Jews and your academia... If you say so. We still both know that Jesus didn't write the bible, and that he wasn't even alive when it was. Only like 10% of the bible even includes direct sayings from Je"sus.'

1. Notice he doesn't address the argument but implies Jewish Acadamic knowledge is somehow a bad thing. No one claims Jesus from the New Testiment? What does ths have to do with the Koran anyway? There is no "Book of Jesus" except in apocrapha. The Four canonical Gospels are claimed to have been written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and the other books mostly by Paul. This is simply another example of the muslim tactic of ignoring the question and attacking the questioner.



Lets know look at his rebuttel of my claim that Mohammed was illiterate:

"When it has it not been admitted and embraced that Mohammad was illiterate? I think that alone is proof that Allah wrote the Quran, there is no other other document in the world, including the bible, so poetic as the Quran. No one has ever produced a single chapter like it, if literate 'educated' people can't produce a SINGLE chapter, then how can an illiterate man?"

2. Notice he disagrees or seems to (its never clear with Muslims as they do not come from the same Platonic school of reason as Westerners so their arguments are often hard to follow) with the statement that Mohammed was illiterate but instead of citing evidence to the contrary uses my argument to backup his own.

He states;

"The actual point was pretty retarded is why. Like I said above, there is next to no way an illiterate man could write the Quran."

3. exactly so mohammed didn't write it, duh!

4. Here we run in to some difficulty with his thought process. Is he saying that Mohammed did write the Koran? That means hes a Muslim heretic because according to Islam Allah wrote the Koran and the Angel Gabriel merely recited it to Mohammed. Hmmm. Even so Shit-tard seems to be implying that the Koran is the literal word of his God (although hes confused as to whether Allah or Mohammed wrote it) in which case whats the point of a religious debate with a fantatic who cannot even entertain the idea that the Koran isn't the word of God?

next to his next point, although hes lost me as to what hes actually arguing when he states in relation to muslim terror against Israel ;

"Plenty of Christian and Jewish groups do the same to Muslims, quit pointing fingers."

5. Umm do they? Does this make it right? Which groups? How many innocent muslims not carrying weapons did they kill? when?



Next;

"Your post wasn't anything new, its annoying to argue the same thing over and over, they've been debunked on the link I posted. As a Muslim, the only scriptures I recognize is the Books of Moses, and the Gospel. Jesus was a prophet, and not God, because there is one and only God, and he was never crucified or otherwise killed, but uplifted into heaven. You might have older bibles then Qurans but that doesn't matter because they are incorrect. As it says in the Quran;"

6. of course my post was nothing new, thats what happens when you tell teh truth you know?

7. So you believe in the Torah?

8. When did I say Jesus was God?

9. Notice he admits there are older copies of the Bible than the oldest copy of the Koran but that doesn't matter to him (WHY NOT???) because they are "incorrect" ummm? Does this make sense to anyone? Why are they incorrect? Is he saying they were altered? but he just admitted the copies are older so he disproves his own argument.

LOL

Thats "no one claims Jesus write the Bible"

quote:Originally posted by groovyruby:

You will notice that these muslims do not address the actual points but sidestep the debate.

A normal tactic of muslims in debates is to not address the point instead to make an aquisation of their own.

"Aquisation.." = ??? That's not a word.

You were proved wrong about Isaac/Ishmael and never responded. I guess the fact that none of this is your argument is the reason you don't care 'you' were proved wrong.



quote:1. Notice he doesn't address the argument but implies Jewish Acadamic knowledge is somehow a bad thing. No one claims Jesus from the New Testiment? What does ths have to do with the Koran anyway? There is no "Book of Jesus" except in apocrapha. The Four canonical Gospels are claimed to have been written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and the other books mostly by Paul. This is simply another example of the muslim tactic of ignoring the question and attacking the questioner.

He does answer your question, and how is he attacking the questioner? He said Jesus did not write the bible and that he wasn't even alive when it was. You are assuming the NT is correct being written many years after the death of Jesus, which makes it strange for you to not see how an illiterate nobody detailing the quran (Muhammed) could possibly be seen as a true message from God.



quote:2. Notice he disagrees or seems to (its never clear with Muslims as they do not come from the same Platonic school of reason as Westerners so their arguments are often hard to follow) with the statement that Mohammed was illiterate but instead of citing evidence to the contrary uses my argument to backup his own.

You must be illiterate, too. He clearly states that it is common knowledge Muhammed was illiterate, then he goes on to say that his illiteracy itself is proof that the Quran is divine. Why is that so difficult for you to see? Also, he is Albanian, which is a western country.

It is clear in this statement that you are really just trying to insult Muslims and you're not really here for debate.

quote:3. exactly so mohammed didn't write it, duh!

No shit. He was alive when it was written, though.

quote:4. Here we run in to some difficulty with his thought process. Is he saying that Mohammed did write the Koran? That means hes a Muslim heretic because according to Islam Allah wrote the Koran and the Angel Gabriel merely recited it to Mohammed. Hmmm. Even so Shit-tard seems to be implying that the Koran is the literal word of his God (although hes confused as to whether Allah or Mohammed wrote it) in which case whats the point of a religious debate with a fantatic who cannot even entertain the idea that the Koran isn't the word of God?

The only one confused here is you. You do not read the posts, but you reply out of your ass so I am guessing you skim them over.

What's the point of an Islamic debate with a fanatic who is vehemently anti-Islam?

quote:5. Umm do they? Does this make it right? Which groups? How many innocent muslims not carrying weapons did they kill? when?

Are you serious!? Have you never seen videos .. or even PHOTOS.. of Palestinians with rocks being run over by tanks?

You are either Jewish or a Zionist Christian.

quote:6. of course my post was nothing new, thats what happens when you tell teh truth you know?

The truth like how the Quran says Ismael was sacrificed? Oh wait.. that wasn't true..

quote:8. When did I say Jesus was God?

I think he is just reaffirming Muslim beliefs. Why do you take everything like it's personal?

quote:9. Notice he admits there are older copies of the Bible than the oldest copy of the Koran but that doesn't matter to him (WHY NOT???) because they are "incorrect" ummm? Does this make sense to anyone? Why are they incorrect? Is he saying they were altered? but he just admitted the copies are older so he disproves his own argument.

Just because something is older doesn't mean it is right. What the hell kind of statement is that?

Tell me which is more feasible:

Book A was written about a man years after his death by people who didn't know him.

Book B was written based on a man's stories while he was alive and lived for another 20 years or so.

Now when you say "book B of course," I want you to stop wondering why it's easy for a Muslim to think the Bible/Torah may be corrupted.

You seriously need to open your eyes and read these posts instead of just trying to assert your opinion. You haven't argued anything successfully, and you have more or less made yourself look like a clueless jackass.

I can't believe I am actually even responding to you, to be honest. You're not much better than the average troll.

lol now lets respond to the aptly named "malaria" (as Islam too is an infectous desease to be cured):



"Aquisation.." = ??? That's not a word."

1. Accusation, ok sue me I made a spelling mistake!

"You were proved wrong about Isaac/Ishmael and never responded. I guess the fact that none of this is your argument is the reason you don't care 'you' were proved wrong."

2. no, I asked re(shqip)tard to answer whether is was Isaac to be sacrificed or Ishmael in the Koran, I don't recall a response other than you claiming its in your edition. This has important ramifications to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict and claim to the land of Israel. If as you say it was Isaac then you agree with Jews and Christians that Isaac (father of the Jews) was the favoured son rather than Ishmael (father of Arabs).

"He does answer your question, and how is he attacking the questioner? He said Jesus did not write the bible and that he wasn't even alive when it was. You are assuming the NT is correct being written many years after the death of Jesus, which makes it strange for you to not see how an illiterate nobody detailing the quran (Muhammed) could possibly be seen as a true message from God."

3.What question did I pose about Jesus?

4. I am not assuming that the NT is correct (I am a Jew not a Christian; I'm waiting for the anti-semitism now...) You are missing the point which is that the NT was written 500 years before the Koran and there are very old copies (older than the Koran) to prove a lack of alterations, so the point is that if something is stated in the NT (and Muslims claim that this book too is holy) and is contradicted by the Koran we must go with the earlier writing as the correct one whether we believe it to be true in a religous sense or merely a scholarly or historical or theological sense.

"You must be illiterate, too. He clearly states that it is common knowledge Muhammed was illiterate, then he goes on to say that his illiteracy itself is proof that the Quran is divine. Why is that so difficult for you to see? Also, he is Albanian, which is a western country."

5. He does not clearly state its common knowledge that Mohammed was illiterate although it is. It is a more logical assumption that someone other than Mohammed wrote the Koran than to assume its God's handywork.

6. As to Albania being a Western country. This is simply absurd. Albania is the poorest country in Europe, it is literally the most backward country on the continent (google it please) geographic proximity doesn't equal "westerness" for one thing its in Eastern Europe and therefore not "western" in the modern sense belonging to the former "eastern-block" countries. Also, more importantly Greeks (the fathers of Western thought) despise Albanians. Please name your 5 favorite Albanian philosophers of the Plantonic trandition to prove ALbania "western" legacy.

"It is clear in this statement that you are really just trying to insult Muslims and you're not really here for debate."

7. I do not hate muslims they are Islams first victims.

"The only one confused here is you. You do not read the posts, but you reply out of your ass so I am guessing you skim them over."

8. Ahh the bliss of the ignorant who admit not actually reading the posts but feel they can pass there "expert" judgement upon questions they are either to ignorant or lazy to read.

"What's the point of an Islamic debate with a fanatic who is vehemently anti-Islam?"

9. Because you might learn something?

"Are you serious!? Have you never seen videos .. or even PHOTOS.. of Palestinians with rocks being run over by tanks?

You are either Jewish or a Zionist Christian."

10. I think you are referring to the Chinese at Tienanmen Square? And yes I am a Jew, but hang on aren't you meant to respect the Torah? Are you implying thats a bad thing?

Lol, I gave a link to 12 different translations of the Quran that all said Isaac. Whatever, its obvious this isn't going to go anywhere, you talk out of your ass and have selective hearing.

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship." Noble Quran 109;1-6

If your head ever pops out of your ass hit me up.

quote:Originally posted by groovyruby:

2. no, I asked re(shqip)tard to answer whether is was Isaac to be sacrificed or Ishmael in the Koran, I don't recall a response other than you claiming its in your edition. This has important ramifications to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict and claim to the land of Israel. If as you say it was Isaac then you agree with Jews and Christians that Isaac (father of the Jews) was the favoured son rather than Ishmael (father of Arabs).

He answered you with a link to a bunch of editions all saying Isaac. Again, READ the posts.

quote:3.What question did I pose about Jesus?

You stated that Jesus was a scholar, so he told you it was irrelevant considering Jesus wasn't around when the NT was written. Why is this so hard for you?

quote:4. I am not assuming that the NT is correct (I am a Jew not a Christian; I'm waiting for the anti-semitism now...) You are missing the point which is that the NT was written 500 years before the Koran and there are very old copies (older than the Koran) to prove a lack of alterations, so the point is that if something is stated in the NT (and Muslims claim that this book too is holy) and is contradicted by the Koran we must go with the earlier writing as the correct one whether we believe it to be true in a religous sense or merely a scholarly or historical or theological sense.

Once again, just because something is OLD doesn't make it valid. Get a real argument, kid.

quote:5. He does not clearly state its common knowledge that Mohammed was illiterate although it is. It is a more logical assumption that someone other than Mohammed wrote the Koran than to assume its God's handywork.

Yes, he does. For the last time: READ THE POSTS. The Quran was written in the time of Muhammed, and more importantly, in the time of advanced recorded history. There is a reason MUHAMMED was threatened and run out of town in the early days, and it wasn't because some other guy wrote the Quran. He was the one reciting it, but someone wrote down what he was saying. You just don't get that.

quote:6. As to Albania being a Western country. This is simply absurd. Albania is the poorest country in Europe, it is literally the most backward country on the continent (google it please) geographic proximity doesn't equal "westerness" for one thing its in Eastern Europe and therefore not "western" in the modern sense belonging to the former "eastern-block" countries. Also, more importantly Greeks (the fathers of Western thought) despise Albanians. Please name your 5 favorite Albanian philosophers of the Plantonic trandition to prove ALbania "western" legacy.

Listen, I know you are an idiot, but you can't be this stupid. Albania was the site of Greek cities, ruled by Macedonians, Romans and Byzantines. Do you not know where WESTERN CULTURE was born?

quote:7. I do not hate muslims they are Islams first victims.

Yes, you do.

quote:"The only one confused here is you. You do not read the posts, but you reply out of your ass so I am guessing you skim them over."

8. Ahh the bliss of the ignorant who admit not actually reading the posts but feel they can pass there "expert" judgement upon questions they are either to ignorant or lazy to read.

Does anyone else find this incredibly humourous? By him saying I admit to skimming posts, it proves that HE is the one skimming posts.

quote:9. Because you might learn something?

Trust me, you'll never learn anything. You're a fanatical Jew who is completely opposed to Islam. You didn't come to debate with an open mind, you came to push your agenda.

quote:10. I think you are referring to the Chinese at Tienanmen Square? And yes I am a Jew, but hang on aren't you meant to respect the Torah? Are you implying thats a bad thing?

No, I am referring to the current state of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Also, I am not muslim.

So this is my last response to you, because you are too much of a kidiot to even READ the responses both ShqipTAR and I have posted before responding with your same old drivel.

quote:6. As to Albania being a Western country. This is simply absurd. Albania is the poorest country in Europe, it is literally the most backward country on the continent (google it please) geographic proximity doesn't equal "westerness" for one thing its in Eastern Europe and therefore not "western" in the modern sense belonging to the former "eastern-block" countries. Also, more importantly Greeks (the fathers of Western thought) despise Albanians. Please name your 5 favorite Albanian philosophers of the Plantonic trandition to prove ALbania "western" legacy.

Ehhh I didn't realize you also attacked my country. Albania is the poorest country in the Europe, but you might notice that we are the only country in all of Europe that never sent any Jews to the gas chamber, yet we are the only 'Muslim' country.. Israel has even acknowleged this and built us a monument. We don't fuck over our neighbors, even if there is something to gain from it, even if they are back stabbing whores. What does Israel do when genocide comes to Albanians in Kosovo?

We have honor. Your right, we are backwards, uncivilized, and unwestern. Kafir.

Here is a link from a muslim website including arabic stating muslims believe Ishmael was sacrificed.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/MusTrad/sacrifice.html

another site stating the same; google it yourself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael

"Ishmael in Islam

In Islam, Ishmael is known as the first-born son of Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic) from his second wife Hagar, and an appointed Prophet of God. Islamic belief holds that Abraham married Hagar, the mother of Ishmael. As a result, Ishmael was the first legitimate son of Abraham. Islam asserts that he was the one nearly sacrificed, not Isaac, (or Ishaq in the Qur'an). Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son for God is celebrated by Muslims every year as Eid ul-Adha."

from above link

Another muslim link claiming it was Ishmael;

http://www.geocities.com/window2islam/sent/article3.html

and they are literally just the first 3 links on Google. Two of the sites are Muslim ones. So I guess you're wrong.

As to Malaria's statement about the Holocaust and Albanians I must admit he is entirely correct and I didn't know that. The Albanian Bressa seems to be a good code of ethics.

However, this really has nothing to do with the central arguments I have made.

Also, the Torah and OT was written many years before the Koran whether an oral tradition at an earlier time or not.

It is true that the NT was written 50-150 years after Jesus but this has very little to do with Islam.

Something old doesn't make it valid yes, but it makes it more valild than something newer when searching for the most "pure" form of these stories or traditions (in relation to Biblical characters or events) this is a point you seem unable or more likely unwilling to grasp.

Also, again please google it, but mohammed was illiterate in Islamic tradition. He was either said to have employed a scribe or the Koran to have been miracle precisely because he couln't write. Everyone reading this do your own research on this.

Yes, I have an agenda. Exposing the truth about Islam.

Yeah, Muhammad (saw) was illiterate, Angel Jibril revealed verses to the prophet and he recited them to the Sahabah (his followers), who wrote it on anything they could in order to preserve it. At that time many of the Sahabah who had memorised the Qur'an were being killed in battle, and it was essential to put all the verses together in order and make sure it was not lost.

How is that hard to believe?

Oh yeah, your quest to expose the truth about Islam will fail. Just like everyone else before you who has tried this.

For me it is my Holy Grail I shall never relent.