I would not be inclined to worship him.

It is said that god is omniscient. People have debated whether or not this implies we are all predestined to go to either heaven or hell, or if god does not know at the point of our conception where we will end up at our life's end (which wouldn't really be omniscience, but whatever). However, it is a given that god knows that a majority of people are going to hell. It even says in the Bible that the road to heaven is small and winding, one less traveled.

God also created man to worship him. Think about it. God has no needs. He's perfect. So why would he create us, but to worship him? It also says in the Bible that's what people do in heaven, praise God for all eternity. So god created us for his own self-gratification. And he knows that a majority of the people that he creates (as he creates all life, all souls) are going to hell.

These aren't the acts of a benevolent being. Even if he had to eternally seperate the sinners from him, he didn't have to make a lake of fire to throw them all into. Why not make a replica of heaven? Or, at worst, a replica of earth? Why no second chances? Why infinite suffering for finite transgressions?

Because in reality, god does not genuinely care about every human on earth. At least 2/3 of the people on this planet are going to suffer for eternity because he can't think of, is incapable of, or doesn't want to give them a second chance, or make hell less painful.

The Christian god is not an all-loving god. If he were real, I wouldn't worship a god so cruel.

If you even just read the bible itself (without any bias) you can clearly see how brutal and despicable god is. The brick testament shows in visual, literal detail the horrific things he does, it's very well done.

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/humans.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/whydidGodcreateus.htm

Those links don't answer anything. They conviniently ignore the "fact" that he is supposedly omnipotent.

That still doesn't cover the whole "billions of souls suffering in hellfire for all eternity" bit.

So God created us so he could die for us, so he could display his love? Sad thing is, god can rise from the dead. Meaning he can give his life again, and rise again, and die again, and rise again. He's immortal. He can be crucified a million times over and go right back to heaven. In effect he created billions of souls, a majority of which to be damned from ever entering heaven, all so he could be tortured for a week or so, lie in a cave for three days, then come out and go right back to heaven to bask in eternal glory once again.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

That still doesn't cover the whole "billions of souls suffering in hellfire for all eternity" bit.

So God created us so he could die for us, so he could display his love? Sad thing is, god can rise from the dead. Meaning he can give his life again, and rise again, and die again, and rise again. He's immortal. He can be crucified a million times over and go right back to heaven. In effect he created billions of souls, a majority of which to be damned from ever entering heaven, all so he could be tortured for a week or so, lie in a cave for three days, then come out and go right back to heaven to bask in eternal glory once again.

God doesn't damn them, He sentences them. They damned themselves by their actions, just like the murderer condemns himself by his actions when he has to stand before the state. As to the exact reason why He created us, I don't think anyone knows the absolute significance of it. I mean, why are there Penguins? Why are there microbes? Couldn't He have created life without them? Yeah, probabaly. But as far as we know, they serve a function down here. What the expressed purpose is, is not something any of us can understand here in this earthly realm.

And God torturing Himself was a way to show His love for humanity. All, or most of humankind can identify with suffering. They obviously know its a bad thing. So God sacrificing Himself through self-immolation in a horrific way, even though He didn't have to, is an act of mercy on His part. This is Christianity 101. I know you understand this... So what is stumbling you these days?

do you know what Jesus went through to save you? have you seen the Passion of the Christ? that movie displays pretty much exactly what happened to him.

None of us, not even you, could make it through what he did! His whole body was torn to shreds from their flogging (and don't even think they missed his groin), they shoved a crown of thorns on his head, they stabbed him with a spear, they spat on him, they made him carry his own cross up a mountain, and they beat him mercilessly. When he asked for a cup of water (after they drove 9 inch nails through his wrists and ankles) they gave him a sponge filled with vinager.

Now, tell me, could you go through ALL that without breaking down, begging to be spared, or dying? Yes, he eventually died. But he's human! every human dies. but he went through all that just so your life could be spared from eternal suffering.

the fact that you can say, "oh, he was just tortured for a week" makes me think you are one heartless person. He wasn't just tortured, they beat him to the point where you couldn't even tell if he was a human. He looked like a walking ball of flesh and blood.

I think someone who does that for you deserves a little more respect.

also, God COULD make Hell less painful. But he won't because the people that don't worship and follow him deserve their punishment. They were warned and they ignored him. Tough luck.

And yes, God cares about EVERY human being on the Earth. He loves us so much but he gives us free will to choose to follow him or not. If he didn't, nobody would truly love him, and that's what he wants.

So, you have a choice to follow Him or not. He cares about you and will guide you through life. But the moment you decide to do things your own way, he steps back and gets out of your way. It's your choice. Would you rather go to a place where you can have anything you want, never get sick, never have ANY trouble at all. Or would you rather go to a place where you will burn in sulfer, get your head TORN off every day (yes, that's in the Bible), and suffer for all of eternity?

If for no other reason, follow him so you can live in happiness forever.

quote:Originally posted by slickt0mmy:

I think someone who does that for you deserves a little more respect.

Thousands of humans have experienced that much pain and anguish, if not more. Are you trying to suggest we all accept him out of sentiment?

quote:God doesn't damn them, He sentences them. They damned themselves by their actions, just like the murderer condemns himself by his actions when he has to stand before the state.

He sentences them based on their nature. Humans are sinful by nature. A murderer conciously chooses to murder. Yet even desiring to sin is a sin itself. He 'sentences' us for things we cannot help.

quote:So God sacrificing Himself through self-immolation in a horrific way, even though He didn't have to, is an act of mercy on His part.I talked about this in my earlier post. Jesus is immortal. He can be crucified a million times over and it be nothing to him. And when a majority of humanity denies Christ, do you call that a success on God's part?!

If God is so adamant about showing his love, why send people to hell? Why make hell such a terrible place? Jesus told his followers to love their enemies. Yet his father sends people to suffer for eternity everyday without thinking twice.

Furhtermore, god pins it on the people! "You've rejected my offer for salvation. You've damned yourself." No we haven't! We are endowed with rationality. We live on a planet filled with hundreds of various religions, all of them offering answers, all the followers of them pledging that their religion is the one truth. On top of that there is science fighting with them all. You think God expects us to know which one is right? He doesn't! He doesn't expect us to know, and he expects that many of us will damn ourselves and doesn't do jack shit about it!

He places us on this planet with full expectations for a majority of us to 'curse ourselves' to an eternity in hell. He either does not want to, can't, or doesn't know how, to make a difference so that everyone can know him and that none of his creations have to suffer forever. He is not just, nor merciful, nor benevolent.

quote:Originally posted by slickt0mmy:

also, God COULD make Hell less painful. But he won't because the people that don't worship and follow him deserve their punishment. They were warned and they ignored him. Tough luck.

What about indigenous tribes in places like New Guinea and some tribes in Africa that have never heard of Jesus. Hell, there are probably people all over the world who go their whole lives without ever hearing the gospel. They were never warned. They never had the opportunity to 'ignore him', yet they are sent to hell anyway.

Furthermore, you seem to think hell is a justified punishment for sinners. Tell me, how is it just to grant infinite punishment for finite transgressions? Why would the most loving being in the universe lack the compassion in his heart to grant his fallen children a second chance at salvation?

quote:And yes, God cares about EVERY human being on the Earth. He loves us so much but he gives us free will to choose to follow him or not. If he didn't, nobody would truly love him, and that's what he wants.

So, you have a choice to follow Him or not. He cares about you and will guide you through life. But the moment you decide to do things your own way, he steps back and gets out of your way. It's your choice. Would you rather go to a place where you can have anything you want, never get sick, never have ANY trouble at all. Or would you rather go to a place where you will burn in sulfer, get your head TORN off every day (yes, that's in the Bible), and suffer for all of eternity?

If for no other reason, follow him so you can live in happiness forever.

Let's say I put a gun to your head. I say, "give me your wallet, or I'll kill you". I have given you free choice. You can choose to give me your wallet, or you can be shot and die. Either way, your wallet is already mine.

God puts us on earth. He says, "worship me, or I send you to hell". He has given us free choice. We can worship him or be sentenced to eternal damnation. However, whether we worship him or not, the status of our soul rests in his hands anyway.

Would a loving God hold a spiritual gun to your head?

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

What about indigenous tribes in places like New Guinea and some tribes in Africa that have never heard of Jesus. Hell, there are probably people all over the world who go their whole lives without ever hearing the gospel. They were never warned. They never had the opportunity to 'ignore him', yet they are sent to hell anyway.



In the Bible it says that EVERYONE will have a chance to experience God's greatness and be witnessed to. I'm not a theologian by any means, so I can't say that this means everyone will be reached by Humans, but at the same time, there has to be some sort of awe that leaves you wondering of a higher being. Before I really understood Christianity (when I was a little kid), I used to think that something bigger than this made all of us and that there had to be something that created this. I believe that some people will be reached just by the awe-inspiring view they get of earth and the starts and everything else.

I could be wrong, but that's my belief.

He sentences them based on their nature. Humans are sinful by nature. A murderer conciously chooses to murder.

Yet even desiring to sin is a sin itself. He 'sentences' us for things we cannot help.

First of all, temptation is not a sin. Jesus, Himself was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Temptation is not a sin, its a natural inclination. Giving in to temptation is the sin. And you can help it. You can't help yourself when you get a thought to kick the crap out of someone? You can't help yourself when you get a sexual urge? You rape them, because you can't help it? That's a cop out and it isn't true.

"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and is enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." -James 1:14-15

Giving in to temptation is the sin.

I talked about this in my earlier post. Jesus is immortal. He can be crucified a million times over and it be nothing to him.

God through His mercy became a man and felt every pain receptor in His body while He was flogged, stabbed, scourged, and beaten. As a man living in a fleshly temple He was afraid of the painful death He was about to undergo. He sweat droplets of blood from the fear. This is a medical condition sparked from intense fear, called, hematidrosis. So to suggest that He didn't really care because He's immortal doesn't fly. Furthermore, you're immortal too. Its only a matter of where you will spend eternity.



And when a majority of humanity denies Christ, do you call that a success on God's part?!

Don't you understand? Why don't you think that God reveals Himself right now? Think about it deeply.

If God is so adamant about showing his love, why send people to hell? Why make hell such a terrible place? Jesus told his followers to love their enemies. Yet his father sends people to suffer for eternity everyday without thinking twice.

Man, you've fallen all the way down in your faith. Just two weeks ago you were a Christian. Put your money where your mouth is, if and when, your family is tragically murdered. Loving your enemy means praying for him to see the light of love. It isn't exoneration, or a get-out-of-jail free card, or fire insurance. We don't placate the enemy and tell them to do whatever the hell they want. We warn them of the consequences of remaining in sin.

Furhtermore, god pins it on the people! "You've rejected my offer for salvation. You've damned yourself."

You're fighting against the Architect of the universe. He owes you nothing. Nothing. Just so you know, sin is only sin when you are concisouly aware that it is wrong. So people in the Congo that don't know any better are not accountable for their sin unless they are aware that it is sin. But you know damn well when you are doing something wrong.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" -Romans 2:14

Case in point: A married man discrettly pulls into the back corner of the porn shop, because he's doing nothing wrong, right? The abortion clinic windows are blacked out because its a legitamate medical proceedure, right? A man walks into a bank with a ski mask over his head because what he is doing isn't wrong, right? You know right from wrong, and you will pay restitution for the things you've done in this life. The only way out is true repentance. Repentance doesn't mean you feel sorry for you've done. Its way more than that. Half the time, people only feel bad because they've been caught. That isn't repentance. That's being sorry for being caught. Repentence means, 'to turn', to turn away from a life of deliberate sin, and a conscious effort to follow the Law of God.

No we haven't! We are endowed with rationality. We live on a planet filled with hundreds of various religions, all of them offering answers, all the followers of them pledging that their religion is the one truth. On top of that there is science fighting with them all.

Science is at odds with philosophy?

You think God expects us to know which one is right? He doesn't! He doesn't expect us to know, and he expects that many of us will damn ourselves and doesn't do jack shit about it!

"Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to My Gospel." Romans 2:15-16

"Where is then your boasting? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law." - Romans 3:27-28

He places us on this planet with full expectations for a majority of us to 'curse ourselves' to an eternity in hell. He either does not want to, can't, or doesn't know how, to make a difference so that everyone can know him and that none of his creations have to suffer forever. He is not just, nor merciful, nor benevolent.

You are asking the questions that have tormented so many souls. I'm not suggesting that you are being irrational. Everything you 've questioned is legitimately inquisitive. Just don't think that all of us have not asked these questions when we have... Most of us anyway. God is all powerful, all merciful, and infinitely loving and compassionate. Anyone who thinks that He would create billions of people in a time or place with no chance at all of being taught His truth but just sends them to eternal torment is certainly not paying any attention to the big picture. The essential message of Christ was love and forgiveness. If you do not believe this, you are not really a Christian and I have serious doubts if you ever were. Growing up in the 'church' does not equate to being a Christian. You must be born of the Spirit. And all that being baptized as an infant means, is that someone sprinkled water on your forehead. You must be born again of the Spirit.

My prayers are dedicated to you tonight. Don't forsake the entire gospel just yet. Perhaps you have not, because you ask not. Sometimes, those who do ask, ask with wrong motivations. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

quote:Originally posted by Masero:

In the Bible it says that EVERYONE will have a chance to experience God's greatness and be witnessed to. I'm not a theologian by any means, so I can't say that this means everyone will be reached by Humans, but at the same time, there has to be some sort of awe that leaves you wondering of a higher being. Before I really understood Christianity (when I was a little kid), I used to think that something bigger than this made all of us and that there had to be something that created this. I believe that some people will be reached just by the awe-inspiring view they get of earth and the starts and everything else.

I could be wrong, but that's my belief.



My interpretation of Romans 1:18-21 suggests you are wrong.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



You are asking the questions that have tormented so many souls. I'm not suggesting that you are being irrational. Everything you 've questioned is legitimately inquisitive. Just don't think that all of us have not asked these questions when we have... Most of us anyway. God is all powerful, all merciful, and infinitely loving and compassionate. Anyone who thinks that He would create billions of people in a time or place with no chance at all of being taught His truth but just sends them to eternal torment is certainly not paying any attention to the big picture.

I'm curious, what is this big picture you speak of? You have not answered his question. Nothing makes sense about our existence with those qualities you attribute to our supposed maker. If you have asked these questions, yourself, please tell us how do you justify eternal torment as punishment for our inherent imperfections. Are we supposed to have faith that the magnitude of this cruelty is somehow justified?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:



The essential message of Christ was love and forgiveness. If you do not believe this, you are not really a Christian and I have serious doubts if you ever were. Growing up in the 'church' does not equate to being a Christian. You must be born of the Spirit. And all that being baptized as an infant means, is that someone sprinkled water on your forehead. You must be born again of the Spirit.

"You must be born of the Spirit". What does this mean? I am willing to accept that this is possible without ever hearing about Jesus. That it means a way of life of love and forgiveness is possible without being a part of christian doctrine. Otherwise, it's damnation for good people which is a cruel plan no matter how you look at it.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

My interpretation of Romans 1:18-21 suggests you are wrong.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

how does that make me wrong? I said that everyone will at least see an awe-inspiring earth and the thought of a higher being HAS to cross their mind. That ties in with what I said. I may have worded it poorly, but the overall idea was that, even if you don't see a human preaching to you about the word of God, there has to be something in your head that says this couldn't be done by random chance...there has to be a higher will involved in this.

being born of the spirit is just a metaphore for being born again. which is another metaphore for accepting christ into your heart.

The tribes in New Guinea you talk about, if they haven't heard that God exists, God spares them and lets them into heaven. Think about babies that die while being born, do you think God would sent someone to eternal Hell, even though they never had a chance to hear about him? no. it's the same with them. People who have never heard about Jesus Christ will go to heaven.

Hyroglyphx knows what he's talking about. Although I don't know him, I can tell his life is on track.

He is the creator of the universe. He doesn't even have to let you live. He could strike you down right now. Every sinner deserves death. "For the wages of sin is death" But God is giving you second chances all your life! You can sin as much as you want then ask for forgiveness and he'll forget all about those sins. That's how forgiving he is.

God doesn't put a spiritual gun to our heads. He has given us the choice to follow him to happiness. It's more like him saying, "Come with me, you'll live. Go away and you'll die." He's not threatening us. He's warning us! He wants us to come with him but he's giving us free will because if he didn't, we wouldn't truly love him and that's what he wants.

He is a jealous god. He knows he deserves to be worshiped. Think about when you do something REALLY awesome. You love it when people say "good job" "you're amazing!". God's the same way. He created a universe for us to live. That's pretty awesome. He deserves our praise.

quote:Originally posted by slickt0mmy:



God doesn't put a spiritual gun to our heads. He has given us the choice to follow him to happiness. It's more like him saying, "Come with me, you'll live. Go away and you'll die." He's not threatening us. He's warning us! He wants us to come with him but he's giving us free will because if he didn't, we wouldn't truly love him and that's what he wants.



He is practically forcing you. He's saying: 'do what you don't want to do,' ( because some people would choose NOT to worship him ) 'or I will let you burn.'

This is only a guise of free choice. It may appear to be free will, but it hardly gives you a lot of options. The majority of all people would just choose to worship him because else they would burn.

You see, if god exists the way you describe him, he is truly the greatest fascist of them all, and deserves not to be worshipped.

Hyroglyphx:

"God is all powerful, all merciful, and infinitely loving and compassionate. Anyone who thinks that He would create billions of people in a time or place with no chance at all of being taught His truth but just sends them to eternal torment is certainly not paying any attention to the big picture."

- Let's assume that God exists for a moment. Being an atheist, I have absolutely no chance of ever entering 'Heaven'. Now, before my creation ever took place, God knew that I would be doomed to suffer in Hell for all eternity. I may have been given the chance to accept the Christian faith, yet I have not. My reasons and choices do not matter; God knew before my creation that I would reject him.

Now, how can God be all merciful and infinitely loving? God brought me into existence knowing full well that I would ultimately reject him and be damned to eternal punishment. How is the act of my creation justified? In this case, wouldn't non-existence be the merciful alternative to eternal torment?

SlickTommy:

"He is a jealous god. He knows he deserves to be worshiped."

I hadn't realized that the one perfect being in the Universe was susceptible to the 'sins of the flesh'.

faily certain god sends un-baptised babies into heven, there are preists in hospitals for this very reason

Whoa there Tommy...don't misread God's word.

Those who are mentally incapable of understanding that there is a God will go to Heaven, this includes babies, but God doesn't give a free entrance to Heaven to the tribes of New Guinea. They aren't slow people. He said that everyone mentally capable of knowing there is a God will be given the ability to comprehend that there is a God and will be shown this, through human teachings or through the visual perspective.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Jesus, Himself was tempted by Satan in the wilderness.

God is a funny guy. He crates humans to boost his self esteem. Then he creates somethig that will tempt him. He is probably sitting up there and laughing his ass off at all of you religious retards.

Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

The essential message of Christ was love and forgiveness. If you do not believe this, you are not really a Christian and I have serious doubts if you ever were. Growing up in the 'church' does not equate to being a Christian. You must be born of the Spirit. And all that being baptized as an infant means, is that someone sprinkled water on your forehead. You must be born again of the Spirit.

You say that to everyone. INFACT that's the standard Christian answer.

thanks Masero. I aparently did misinterpret that part. Thanks for correcting me.

To the rest of you, I believe and follow God because I know he exists. I've seen it in my own life. I could not live my life like I am without him. The things he's done for me are amazing. He's made me walk again, and be strong enough to be a 19d Cavalry Scout Sniper in the Army.

When I was 16, my car was hit by a drunk driver. He was killed and both of my legs were broken in many peices. I spent one and 1/2 weeks in the hospital and I was sent home WALKING. The doctors could not justify how I did this. When they first pulled me out, I was thought never to walk again. Now I'm running 5-8 miles every other day. I've been to Germany, Afghanistan, and Iraq. I joined the Army knowing that God would help the through. and he did.

Now how can i say there is no God when the doctors themselves said that there is nothing that they did to help me walk again? They didn't have any hope for me so they didn't even try.

But what about Muslims and Hindus who experience the same 'miracles'??? If there is only 1 God, why would he perform miracles for those who worship false gods? Some Christians argue that those miracles are the works of demons meant to decieve those people, but fail to realize that those people could equally attribute the miracles that Christians experience to evil spirits on their terms. You're not just arguing that a god exists, you're arguing that your god exists, and the argument falls through.

Because something, anything, is unexplained, doesn't mean it is supernatural, or proof that God exists. All it shows is that things happen that we currently are unable to explain.

You say that to everyone. INFACT that's the standard Christian answer.[/QUOTE]

Christ is the standard. Christ is the answer.

quote:Originally posted by slickt0mmy:

thanks Masero. I aparently did misinterpret that part. Thanks for correcting me.

To the rest of you, I believe and follow God because I know he exists. I've seen it in my own life. I could not live my life like I am without him. The things he's done for me are amazing. He's made me walk again, and be strong enough to be a 19d Cavalry Scout Sniper in the Army.

When I was 16, my car was hit by a drunk driver. He was killed and both of my legs were broken in many peices. I spent one and 1/2 weeks in the hospital and I was sent home WALKING. The doctors could not justify how I did this. When they first pulled me out, I was thought never to walk again. Now I'm running 5-8 miles every other day. I've been to Germany, Afghanistan, and Iraq. I joined the Army knowing that God would help the through. and he did.

Now how can i say there is no God when the doctors themselves said that there is nothing that they did to help me walk again? They didn't have any hope for me so they didn't even try.

I thought "thou shalt not kill" was a commandment?

PRAISE THE LORD! I AM SAVED AND I AM HEALED! NOW I WILL JOIN THE ARMY AND KILL ME SOME FELLOW HUMANS!

PRAISE THE LORD! I AM SAVED AND I AM HEALED! NOW I WILL JOIN THE ARMY AND KILL ME SOME FELLOW HUMANS![/QUOTE]

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/mac-lkl2.htm

Make your own inferences.

No matter. If your religion endorses killing, you are filth. If it does not, the guy who joined the army is not a true follower. There's no way out of this one.

quote:Originally posted by slickt0mmy:

thanks Masero. I aparently did misinterpret that part. Thanks for correcting me.

To the rest of you, I believe and follow God because I know he exists. I've seen it in my own life. I could not live my life like I am without him. The things he's done for me are amazing. He's made me walk again, and be strong enough to be a 19d Cavalry Scout Sniper in the Army.

When I was 16, my car was hit by a drunk driver. He was killed and both of my legs were broken in many peices. I spent one and 1/2 weeks in the hospital and I was sent home WALKING. The doctors could not justify how I did this. When they first pulled me out, I was thought never to walk again. Now I'm running 5-8 miles every other day. I've been to Germany, Afghanistan, and Iraq. I joined the Army knowing that God would help the through. and he did.

Now how can i say there is no God when the doctors themselves said that there is nothing that they did to help me walk again? They didn't have any hope for me so they didn't even try.



So just because you can't explain how it happened automatically means that god did it?

quote:Originally posted by Dre Crabbe:

No matter. If your religion endorses killing, you are filth. If it does not, the guy who joined the army is not a true follower. There's no way out of this one.

I'm assuming that you are refering specifically to Christianity. It seems your non-existant plight is with Judaism. Jesus explains all of this. Here'e one of His quips:

"Those who draw by the sword, die by the sword."

However, it would be well with you to understand the difference between murder and warfare. For instance David was both a murderer and a warrior. He killed Goliath, but he murdered Uriah. To help drive this point home, if a police officer makes a routine traffic stop and the offender pulls out a Glock 40 and brandishes the weapon in such a way as to cause immediate bodily harm and/or death, the officer is justified in killing the offender. Did the officer murder the man, or did he kill him?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

I'm assuming that you are refering specifically to Christianity. It seems your non-existant plight is with Judaism. Jesus explains all of this. Here'e one of His quips:

"Those who draw by the sword, die by the sword."

However, it would be well with you to understand the difference between murder and warfare. For instance David was both a murderer and a warrior. He killed Goliath, but he murdered Uriah. To help drive this point home, if a police officer makes a routine traffic stop and the offender pulls out a Glock 40 and brandishes the weapon in such a way as to cause immediate bodily harm and/or death, the officer is justified in killing the offender. Did the officer murder the man, or did he kill him?



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Voluntarily joining the army so you can put bullets through the heads of other humans, when you had the option not to, is murder. I don't consider the military bad, but if I were a Christian I would be forced to conclude that fighting is wrong. If Christian guy here felt the need to join the army, he could have signed up for being a medic or something. His faith was so pathetic it couldn't resist the rush of putting bullets into people while peering the scope of a rifle. Go look at the fucking Amish, they have more balls than you and your attempts to justify killing people.

Your god sucks ass.

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Hyroglyphx:

"God is all powerful, all merciful, and infinitely loving and compassionate. Anyone who thinks that He would create billions of people in a time or place with no chance at all of being taught His truth but just sends them to eternal torment is certainly not paying any attention to the big picture."

- Let's assume that God exists for a moment. Being an atheist, I have absolutely no chance of ever entering 'Heaven'. Now, before my creation ever took place, God knew that I would be doomed to suffer in Hell for all eternity. I may have been given the chance to accept the Christian faith, yet I have not. My reasons and choices do not matter; God knew before my creation that I would reject him.

Now, how can God be all merciful and infinitely loving? God brought me into existence knowing full well that I would ultimately reject him and be damned to eternal punishment. How is the act of my creation justified? In this case, wouldn't non-existence be the merciful alternative to eternal torment?

SlickTommy:

"He is a jealous god. He knows he deserves to be worshiped."

I hadn't realized that the one perfect being in the Universe was susceptible to the 'sins of the flesh'.

OWNED!

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Christ is the standard. Christ is the answer.

In your own little imaginery world, maybe. Definately not mine.

As an non-bias voice, I'd like to say that you have not proven god exists.

Your logic -

We don't understand it so it must be god.

Also I'd like you to explain each of these bible contradictions, then I might believe, and I'm sorry if using logic is deemed a sin.

http://tinyurl.com/3fwye

^List of contradictions

I'm going to see a movie I'll be back later to debate.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

- Let's assume that God exists for a moment. Being an atheist, I have absolutely no chance of ever entering 'Heaven'. Now, before my creation ever took place, God knew that I would be doomed to suffer in Hell for all eternity.

Well, for starters, you don't know what tomorrow brings. Never in a million years would I ever think I would have become a Christian of all things.

I may have been given the chance to accept the Christian faith, yet I have not. My reasons and choices do not matter; God knew before my creation that I would reject him.

Now, how can God be all merciful and infinitely loving? God brought me into existence knowing full well that I would ultimately reject him and be damned to eternal punishment. How is the act of my creation justified? In this case, wouldn't non-existence be the merciful alternative to eternal torment?

Didn't I already answer that before, just not to you? Yes, God knows your choices, but He afforded you the opportunity. If He didn't afford you that the opportunity, that would be the injustice. But He has. And ever day that you are still with us, you have the opportunity to turn towards Him. That's like saying if you were a bank robber and the FBI was on to you, that you have to blame them for your actions. You aren't aware that you are under surveillance, but they do. If you have a sudden change of heart, there is no crime for which to be punished. However, if you complete the crime, or give every indication that you are trying to bring it to fruition then they have every right to punish you in accordance with the law that was prescribed. The prefix (pre) means 'beforehand', therefore the law was established before you. The law of God is no different. So, what is unjust about God giving you the ability to have a freewill instead of being some automaton? So because God knows that you would break His law before, He shouldn't have created you? I've got news for you. No one has ever kept the Law, and yet some of us will live. If we recieved the full extent of His punishment, not a single soul would be spared. Yet, out of His mercy He allowed for Himself to be made the propitiation for our sins. Therefore, God has more mercy than we could ever.

god is a kid with a magnify glass and we are ants

Hyro:

- True, I do not know what tomorrow may bring. I should have stated in my original point that it should be assumed that I will be an atheist to the grave.

"Yes, God knows your choices, but He afforded you the opportunity. If He didn't afford you that the opportunity, that would be the injustice."

- This is the usual answer that I receive. However, this just doesn't cut it. As I said, he knows that regardless of what he may offer to me in my lifetime, I will ultimately reject him. My ability to do so holds no bearing in this debate. The point is that he knew my choices before creating me, and yet still followed through with my creation. This is not a merficul act. Creating a being that you KNOW is destined to an eternity of mental and emotional anguish is not something that an omni-benevolent God would do. A truly merciful God would never create such a pitiful creature in the first place.

"So, what is unjust about God giving you the ability to have a freewill instead of being some automaton?"

- I never stated that freewill was unjust. This debate is not about my freewill.

"So because God knows that you would break His law before, He shouldn't have created you? I've got news for you. No one has ever kept the Law, and yet some of us will live."

- So, you admit that God has made a law to judge beings that are entirely incapable of adhering to said law? This is the way in which the creator of the cosmos goes about his business? This is justice?

"Yet, out of His mercy He allowed for Himself to be made the propitiation for our sins. Therefore, God has more mercy than we could ever."

- Again, my question had nothing to do with my ability to choose to reject God, Jesus, whatever. Offering salvation means nothing when God knows for a certainty that I am destined for eternal torment.

God is a dick. (At least the one defined by the Bible is.)

Luckily he doesn't exist and we won't really need to be subjected to his stupid, childish, egotistical, and unbelievably insecure personality.

Hyro- Citing passages from the bible doesn't give your argument more credit, just because it was written by humans and the fact that Jesus didn't write any of it should show at least some people that it could partially/all be wrong. Just because some "follower" writes something down years after someone dies doesn't make it fact. There is no way to prove that christianty is the correct religion. MOST religions have prophets who have spoken to god or are supposed god, what FACT is there that your religion is more merited than the next? Most of your argument makes no sense what so ever if looked at logically, none of whats in the bible matters AT ALL in an argument like this. I could claim that I'm speaking to god right now and as soon as I get off this message board I'm going to go and write a new-new testament, because Jesus just came into my room and started talking to me. There is nothing that says that this couldn't happen, there is no reason that "your god" is the correct one. And if you say thats what faith is for then thats a cop out, the fact that some old priest wasn't a good enough public speaker to make me believe might be the reason I'm not christian, but its probably because I rely on logical thought and not BS that more than likely some drunk fuck wrote up one day as a joke.



PS I'm going to laugh if there is some way to realize that we merely cease to exist when we die and just before you wink out of existence you go, "o shit i wasted my life worshipping a fake god, nice joke jesus!" We could be completely impermanent and the thought of people having "souls that transcend space and time" is merely an answer for people who can't deal with their insignificance. Of course that won't happen because if thats true then as soon as you die you no longer exist and your "consciousness" dies with your body. O and one more thing, if you talk about people seeing angels and white lights as they die it is because when your body is in the final stages of dieing your brain releases an extremely powerful hallucinogen, thats why people see things that they find comfort in, it doesn't prove shit.