I’m an atheist and philosophically an absurdist. I see religion as something that causes hate, confusion, fear, division among people, ignorance. I used to be so naïve that I believed I could actually in someway stop this. But I’ve given up.

I’m just going to live my life and enjoy it, I only get one. I’ve had enough of arguing. I no longer see the point.

I don't blame you. I'm getting pretty tired of the fundamentalist religious folks myself. It is pointless to argue, because no amount of scientific evidence or proof will change their mind at this point. Their sacred book is the world to them.

Debate strengthens tactical skills, and strengthens your ability to communicate. It also forces you to think about things from angles you may not have previously considered. In short, you LEARN when you debate.

It's not surprising that people as uneducated and bigoted as you two wouldn't be interested in such things.

You'll be back, though. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

You, Digital Savour, are not a nice person. >(

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Debate strengthens tactical skills, and strengthens your ability to communicate. It also forces you to think about things from angles you may not have previously considered. In short, you LEARN when you debate.

It's not surprising that people as uneducated and bigoted as you two wouldn't be interested in such things.

You'll be back, though. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Just because they don't read bible 24/7 doesn't neccessary mean they are uneducated. You on the other hand only know bible.

Can you picture religion as a bridge to enlightenment? What I mean is, religion introduces a person to the idea of a higher power and deaper unseen meaning to your life. It is up to that person to gain an understanding of that power (crossing the bridge). A lot of religious people stay on the bridge because it works for them and they don't usually have (or can't handle) any catalyst that makes them rethink their beliefs.

[This message has been edited by Kwyjibo (edited 04-09-2006).]

Religion does cause the things you have listed but much more as well. Can you imagine all the disruption if half the world didn't have a religion? Something to look forward to? Something to have faith in? Sure it may seem silly to us, but to some that is their whole lives. Some people on earth will not be able to see a point to live by rules, to have morals, and to be decent people with out their fait. Religion can be seen as a silly theory, but hey if thats what people want to believe, let them. Those who act out inappropriatly will be punished as fit. Everyone has their way of living and that is something no one will ever be changed. Religion has been around centuries before our mere existence, and here it will stay centuries beyond our deaths. Accept it as it is, as you say you will, because you have in your own life what makes you happy which some may perceive as silly too.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Debate strengthens tactical skills, and strengthens your ability to communicate. It also forces you to think about things from angles you may not have previously considered. In short, you LEARN when you debate.

It's not surprising that people as uneducated and bigoted as you two wouldn't be interested in such things.

You'll be back, though. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



you're so much better than everyone...

*bows down*

quote:Originally posted by GodisHypocrisy:

Religion does cause the things you have listed but much more as well. Can you imagine all the disruption if half the world didn't have a religion? Something to look forward to? Something to have faith in? Sure it may seem silly to us, but to some that is their whole lives. Some people on earth will not be able to see a point to live by rules, to have morals, and to be decent people with out their fait. Religion can be seen as a silly theory, but hey if thats what people want to believe, let them. Those who act out inappropriatly will be punished as fit. Everyone has their way of living and that is something no one will ever be changed. Religion has been around centuries before our mere existence, and here it will stay centuries beyond our deaths. Accept it as it is, as you say you will, because you have in your own life what makes you happy which some may perceive as silly too.

I can only imagine what the world would be like if there was no spiritual direction. Take away the ten commandments and even your very existence is in question. It is good we have the influence of the commandments among us. Else, you and I would be hunting or hunted like wild beasts of the field.

Say what you may about the doctrines of God but you have to begin to see the wisdom in the restraint of the beastman in us all? I hope.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I can only imagine what the world would be like if there was no spiritual direction. Take away the ten commandments and even your very existence is in question. It is good we have the influence of the commandments among us. Else, you and I would be hunting or hunted like wild beasts of the field.

Say what you may about the doctrines of God but you have to begin to see the wisdom in the restraint of the beastman in us all? I hope.

You're an idiot to think that without religion we wouldn't have morals. You don't not need a god to tell you murder is wrong, it's pretty easy to figure that out on your own.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

You're an idiot to think that without religion we wouldn't have morals. You don't not need a god to tell you murder is wrong, it's pretty easy to figure that out on your own.

I agree with Adrenochrome's main point (I don't think anyone here is an idiot though). I believe it's up to man to give meaning to his own individual life by creating his own values and in essence willing his own existence.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

You're an idiot to think that without religion we wouldn't have morals. You don't not need a god to tell you murder is wrong, it's pretty easy to figure that out on your own.

I don't recall ever saying you need religion to have morales. Morales, in this case, is something still yet to be defined. You're taking the stance that all mankind is beyond evil and capable of setting a measure of conduct that even the law makers are capable of following. I shudder at the utopian view of humanism you hold. Take a walk on the wild side my friend. Reality says something differnt.

I've been around long enough to see what men do in the light of day and you will have a hard sell to tell me we have the ability to discern what is good and what is bad by our own interpretations.

On this forum alone I'm sure there are a hundered different views on how you and I should be allowed to live. In fact I just read how somebody would like to smash the skulls of Christians. Brilliant, should we follow those morales? Where murder is bad..relativily speaking as long as you aren't a Christian. I'm sure that plenty of people here would think that killing a Christian is ok. How's that for morales? I'm not buying what you are selling.

Please, don't try to sell me on the idea of the communist ideology of athiest humanism is the light of the world.



There is only one thing consistent about man-made morales - they change directions by the wind of trends.

I’m not a communist. And I do not believe in good and evil. I simply believe there is an event and then various moral interpretations of that event. Morals are manmade, like a painting.

In the old testament, God said to kill your children if they’re not Christian. Should we follow those rules? I think not. Luckily, the people who follow the old testament still have chosen to ignore those parts.

For those of you here who insist that, without a higher being, we would all be a bunch of primates running around killing each other. Thats if you think we could even get THAT far.

Then why is it that "None Believers" like scientists and what not, are highly educated people. And muslim tit heads are out there blowing shit up?

I think that faith is a good idea, if it's faith in ourselves to get where we're going, and not some higherbeing to do the work for us.

quote:Originally posted by Source:

For those of you here who insist that, without a higher being, we would all be a bunch of primates running around killing each other. Thats if you think we could even get THAT far.

Then why is it that "None Believers" like scientists and what not, are highly educated people. And muslim tit heads are out there blowing shit up?

I think that faith is a good idea, if it's faith in ourselves to get where we're going, and not some higherbeing to do the work for us.

'Highly Educated' is up for interpretation. Plus terrorists are a non-example in this case because they aren't religious.

quote:I’m not a communist. And I do not believe in good and evil. I simply believe there is an event and then various moral interpretations of that event. Morals are manmade, like a painting.

In the old testament, God said to kill your children if they’re not Christian. Should we follow those rules? I think not. Luckily, the people who follow the old testament still have chosen to ignore those parts.

Your metaphor of a painting is just confusing but you're right that morals are man-made. However, they vary from person-to-person on a case-by-case basis. I agree with your attack on the Bible however, you must take into account that it was written thousands of years ago when 'general morality' was far different from what it is now.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

There is only one thing consistent about man-made morales - they change directions by the wind of trends.

Seeing how bible was drastically changed in the new testamnet, you can apply the same statement to that as well.

quote:Originally posted by Lucky7:

'Highly Educated' is up for interpretation. Plus terrorists are a non-example in this case because they aren't religious.

That's just your opinion though. I'm sure they think they are more religious then you. And say the same things about christians.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

You, Digital Savour, are not a nice person. >(

Judging by that post alone, no.

But I am a very nice person, when I have no reason not to be. You've been attacking me since you knew me, so...what other reaction would you like from me ?

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

Just because they don't read bible 24/7 doesn't neccessary mean they are uneducated. You on the other hand only know bible.

ROFL

Yeah...you REALLY got me there ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Head on over to Politics, youngin'. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by neX:



you're so much better than everyone...

*bows down*

Nope. I'm the same as everyone else.

My point was, he shouldn't give up. It's not useless.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

You're an idiot to think that without religion we wouldn't have morals. You don't not need a god to tell you murder is wrong, it's pretty easy to figure that out on your own.

Where do morals orginate from, then ?

If you believe in evolutionary theory, then you believe we came from a single-celled organism, and evolved from there.

What purpose would any organisms, between the single-cell and what we are today, have in developing morality ?

HOW could morality develope ?

There are many cultures in which murder is NOT wrong, but merely a way of life.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



What purpose would any organisms, between the single-cell and what we are today, have in developing morality ?

HOW could morality develope ?



a tribe held together by morals would have a greater chance of passing on their genes than an "every man for himself" societal structure. in other words, morals are a part of society, and we started getting them as warm-blooded, hairy mammals.

quote:

There are many cultures in which murder is NOT wrong, but merely a way of life.

and what culture would that be? somehow i doubt you can name even one.



this is what that guy meant when he said you only know the bible.

Humm I have no problem with killing someone who really deserves it, most people would and so 'thou shalt not kill' came about. In this way I don't see how religion 'invented' morality.

Isn't today an 'every man for himself' society? I'll name you a culture in which murder isn't wrong - international geopolitics *cough*war*cough*.

What can I say? Some people deserve to be killed.

Morals aren’t absolute. The people who claimed to have been ‘inspired’ by god and wrote the bible put down their own moral view points, same goes for the new testament, same goes for the Koran, same goes for every other religion out there.

It’s very easy to see there is no right and wrong, good and evil. There is simply an action and then a moral interpretation of that action. Some will interpret the action as wrong, some will interpret the action as right, some will interpret it apathetically.

A good example of this is the death penalty. I abhor the death penalty, yet there are people who advocate it and see it as morally right.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

ROFL

Yeah...you REALLY got me there ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Head on over to Politics, youngin'. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



OH WOW! Religion and politics! I give up, you are educated. You probably push your bible bullshit laws there as well. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[This message has been edited by ohhi (edited 04-09-2006).]

Mind you, you live in USA. What POLITICS are referring to?

http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

[This message has been edited by ohhi (edited 04-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Where do morals orginate from, then ?

If you believe in evolutionary theory, then you believe we came from a single-celled organism, and evolved from there.

It's not like morals are an exclusivly human thing. Higher primates like chimps and gorilas have complex rules for living together. Unless you believe that this is God's way of reminding us to be nice evolution of morals in the form of hardwired instincts makes some sence.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

I’m an atheist and philosophically an absurdist. I see religion as something that causes hate, confusion, fear, division among people, ignorance. I used to be so naïve that I believed I could actually in someway stop this. But I’ve given up.

I’m just going to live my life and enjoy it, I only get one. I’ve had enough of arguing. I no longer see the point.

I just found this ironic (and I'm going to get flamed for it, so I don't mind) but I believe this is "My God can beat the shit out of your God"...so why are atheists even in here trying to cause change? They don't have a God to beat the shit out of the other Gods...per se.

Iuno...I just found that funny.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:



In the old testament, God said to kill your children if they’re not Christian. Should we follow those rules? I think not. Luckily, the people who follow the old testament still have chosen to ignore those parts.

also...for shits and giggles...I'm not sure the Hebrew law of the Old Testament, or the writings of David or minor Prophets would flat out say "if you don't have Christian children, kill them." since...ya know...Christianity wasn't really applicable back then...with the whole part about Christ not even being born yet, let alone rose again.

quote:Originally posted by Masero:

also...for shits and giggles...I'm not sure the Hebrew law of the Old Testament, or the writings of David or minor Prophets would flat out say "if you don't have Christian children, kill them." since...ya know...Christianity wasn't really applicable back then...with the whole part about Christ not even being born yet, let alone rose again.



But apparently that same god was around forever. And if this is what you label it now (christianity) then isn't it safe to say that it should of always been called that?

about poster

"When a man has once brought himself to accept uncritically all the absurdities that religious doctrines put before him and even to overlook the contradictions between them, we need not be greatly suprised at the weakness of his intellect"

[Sigmund Freud: The Future of an Illusion]

In responce to Digital_Savior about morality

"The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action."

[Albert Einstein]

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

[Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930]

I am always open to healthy debate.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Where do morals orginate from, then ?

If you believe in evolutionary theory, then you believe we came from a single-celled organism, and evolved from there.

What purpose would any organisms, between the single-cell and what we are today, have in developing morality ?

HOW could morality develope ?

There are many cultures in which murder is NOT wrong, but merely a way of life.

If an atheist can have morals without a god that forces him to do so it completely negates your point.

Have I not already stated morallity can exist independantly of religous influence?

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

about poster

"When a man has once brought himself to accept uncritically all the absurdities that religious doctrines put before him and even to overlook the contradictions between them, we need not be greatly suprised at the weakness of his intellect"

[Sigmund Freud: The Future of an Illusion]

In responce to Digital_Savior about morality

"The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action."

[Albert Einstein]

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

[Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930]

I am always open to healthy debate.

Your quoting a man who paved the way for the greatest, most feared weapon of all time. He is an author of fear and circumstance with all his wisdom and knowledge. I hope he wasn't also trying to define the morale clause for its use.

A scientist is certainly not the person to seek direction on morale clarity since the activity in science often crosses the line and breaches the God ordained directives of humanity.

I would see why a scientist would do their best to tear down those restraints of God's laws. They often are hindered by those laws of nature which they so much want to redefine for their own gains.

The commandment laws of God can preserve us when followed and lead to our destruction when we walk away from them which everyone of us has the free choice to do.

Unlike what some people believe, God will not zap you with a lightening bolt when you do wrong (of course this is the crux of the debate - who defines what is right and what is wrong?)

The end will be the final period of the story of our lives which stands as a testimony of who we are. The awesome thing is for the one who believes in the Christ Jesus - all the bad things and debts to God are taken out and paid for. What a great marvel it is to have a clear conscience knowing the days of sorrow are gone.

quote:Originally posted by Masero:

I just found this ironic (and I'm going to get flamed for it, so I don't mind) but I believe this is "My God can beat the shit out of your God"...so why are atheists even in here trying to cause change? They don't have a God to beat the shit out of the other Gods...per se.

Iuno...I just found that funny.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

It's not like morals are an exclusivly human thing. Higher primates like chimps and gorilas have complex rules for living together. Unless you believe that this is God's way of reminding us to be nice evolution of morals in the form of hardwired instincts makes some sence.

Complex rules = morals ? How do you figure ?

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:



OH WOW! Religion and politics! I give up, you are educated. You probably push your bible bullshit laws there as well. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Here's a news flash for you, squirt:

When I come to My God, I argue religion. When I go to Politics, I argue politics. When I go to S&A, I argue sex.

I am 27 years old. I have 3 children, and I've been married to hyroglyphx for 4 years. I've been around the world, served my country, lost a child, recovered from abuse and drug addiction, and a whole host of other "realities". I have lived more in one lifetime than most of you ever will.

You've got more problems than even WE can identify if you seriously think all I know about is religion. And Politics.

I wasn't born a Christian, ya know. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

Morals aren’t absolute.

Yes, they are.

Everything is absolute. Everything has a cause and effect. You can choose to ignore that if you'd like, but that won't change the fact that it's true.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I am 27 years old. I have 3 children, and I've been married to hyroglyphx for 4 years. I've been around the world, served my country, lost a child, recovered from abuse and drug addiction, and a whole host of other "realities". I have lived more in one lifetime than most of you ever will.

So you're a fuck up who went running to a God for help. Yeah, we're really going to listen to you, fuck up.

And your religious beliefs effect your political and sexual views, so you DO carry your religion over with you.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

So you're a fuck up who went running to a God for help. Yeah, we're really going to listen to you, fuck up.

No, I'm a real person that has been through enough to know what I am talking about on a great number of issues.

I'm not some 13 year old snot-nosed kid, eating Cheeto's, wanking to horse porn in my parents' basement.

I've had a hard life. How does that make me a fuck up ? You're a punk, and that's all there is to it.

Lastly, I didn't run to God for help. In fact, I resisted Him for way too long, though if I had run to Him, I wouldn't be ashamed of it.

quote:And your religious beliefs effect your political and sexual views, so you DO carry your religion over with you.

The assertion was that I don't know about anything other than religion.

Try and follow the context, twit.

You're such a loving, turn the cheeck style christian. You really show how great your people is, DS. *rolls eyes*

How great my "people is", eh ?

ROFL

(and you gotta love the arrogance of a little prick like you, making assertions about my life [I suppose the abuse was MY fault, right ?] and riduculing me for being a human, which is precisely what you hate about Christianity...people telling you you're a bad person just for being who you are.)

I didn’t say you were a bad person, I said you were a fuck up. I’m a fuck up too, I admit it, I drink too much and I do too many drugs, I realised this and I admit I don’t know everything and I’m not a 100% about everything. But you, you have this belief that the Bible is 100% correct and you force it down everyone’s throats as the only answer to life, when in fact there is many.

As for my writing abilities, I admit they are not the best. I haven’t had that great an education, my mother - for who knows why - pulled me out of school when I was very young. She was out all day, so I was stuck in a house on my own and I had to educate myself.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

I didn’t say you were a bad person, I said you were a fuck up.

Silly me...for thinking they were one and the same. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:I’m a fuck up too, I admit it, I drink too much and I do too many drugs, I realised this and I admit I don’t know everything and I’m not a 100% about everything.

Neither do I.

quote:But you, you have this belief that the Bible is 100% correct and you force it down everyone’s throats as the only answer to life, when in fact there is many.

A belief grounded on solid historical/archeological research and empirical data...not to mention the spiritual experiences I have had.

I am posting on a public web forum, just like everyone else. If I am forcing it, so are all of you.

What's the difference ?

quote:As for my writing abilities, I admit they are not the best. I haven’t had that great an education, my mother - for who knows why - pulled me out of school when I was very young. She was out all day, so I was stuck in a house on my own and I had to educate myself.

Are you talking about life experience ? If so...how am I incorrect in my assessment that you are simply ignorant of many things about life that would help your arguments hold a but more credibility than they currently do ?

It's not an insult. I was young once.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Are you talking about life experience ? If so...how am I incorrect in my assessment that you are simply ignorant of many things about life that would help your arguments hold a but more credibility than they currently do ?

It's not an insult. I was young once.

I don’t think I ever did say you were wrong about me not having much life experience, that was someone else defending me.

All I was talking about there is why my grammar is so poor. I admit I’m ignorant on certain topics, but that’s not my though and I wish I wasn’t, I feel kinda self-conscious about most of it.

But I don’t think religion is one of the subjects I’m ignorant in. I was raised Christian and continued to be a devout Christian until about the age of fourteen, then I studied a lot of other religions and decided all religions are manmade and not the right path for me. I’m not saying no one should have religion, I think religion is very good for some people, even if it is just stories and myths and belief systems. It just didn’t work for me. So that’s when I discovered existentialism and I found it highly liberating, and I feel it works for me.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

I don’t think I ever did say you were wrong about me not having much life experience, that was someone else defending me.

Ok.

quote:All I was talking about there is why my grammar is so poor. I admit I’m ignorant on certain topics, but that’s not my though and I wish I wasn’t, I feel kinda self-conscious about most of it.

Your grammar is actually the least of your worries.

It's your venemous, illogical posts I take issue with.

I can tell you are self-conscious about it, because of the way you react when I point it out.

All you had to do was ask nicely. I will stop. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:But I don’t think religion is one of the subjects I’m ignorant in. I was raised Christian and continued to be a devout Christian until about the age of fourteen, then I studied a lot of other religions and decided all religions are manmade and not the right path for me.

Having studied the Bible in both the Hebrew and Greek (I have a Jewish Translation Bible) for many years, I know from your responses to my posts that you lack a fundamental understanding of God and His will, which is clearly portrayed in the Bible.

I'm sorry if you find my assessment offensive, but I call it like I see it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:I’m not saying no one should have religion, I think religion is very good for some people, even if it is just stories and myths and belief systems. It just didn’t work for me. So that’s when I discovered existentialism and I found it highly liberating, and I feel it works for me.

So, you just vehemently attack me. And hyroglyphx. And Interest.

You don't recognize the common theme here ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, you just vehemently attack me. And hyroglyphx. And Interest.

You don't recognize the common theme here ?

I've attacked you. But I don't think I've attacked the other two, if so it wasn't intentionally meant to be done as an 'attack' and I'm sorry.

btw, I'm not exactly sure what your view of God's will is. Can you explain your interpretation of it?



[This message has been edited by Adrenochrome (edited 04-11-2006).]

I don't interpret it. I read the Bible, and see clearly what God is telling us. It's not a mystery.

It would take years for me to put it all down for you, though.

But now that we've dropped the boxing gloves, maybe you'd like to have these conversations on a regular basis.

You can reach me in any of the following ways:

AIM: desired hush

MSN: desired.hush@hotmail.com

IRC: Digital (just pm me and I will tell you where to go...make sure you choose Slashnet as your server)

We have these convos all the time. You'd be more than welcome to join us. So far we've got a few atheists, a Jew, 2 Christians, and a partridge in a pear tree.

We have a good time. Just think about it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I don't interpret it. I read the Bible, and see clearly what God is telling us. It's not a mystery.

That’s where I begin to have a problem with religious(note, by religious I don’t just mean Christian) people. They all have this thing where they believe they personally know the true God and few their religious text as 100% and believe they see it 100% objectively, when that’s just not true.

I wish religious people would learn from the Gnostics.

I like pie.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Here's a news flash for you, squirt:

When I come to My God, I argue religion. When I go to Politics, I argue politics. When I go to S&A, I argue sex.

I am 27 years old. I have 3 children, and I've been married to hyroglyphx for 4 years. I've been around the world, served my country, lost a child, recovered from abuse and drug addiction, and a whole host of other "realities". I have lived more in one lifetime than most of you ever will.

You've got more problems than even WE can identify if you seriously think all I know about is religion. And Politics.

I wasn't born a Christian, ya know. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)



Your point is? That makes you whole 5 years older then me. Minus the kids and all that jazz, I have gone through the same stuff. It doesn't mean that you know more.

Plus all your argumesnt have a "hint of bible" in them... Hense my previous statemnet.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Complex rules = morals ? How do you figure ?

ignorance is bliss

morals are nothing more than social rules.

in societies of many mammals it is taboo to murder one of the herd, for example. killing competing herds, of the same species and of other species, is perfectly acceptable. damn, that reminds me of human morals.

oh, and you never did name one society where murder was acceptable either, did you?

mabye it's because your full of shit? mabye it's because you already believe what you want to believe, and then set out to find evidence to support that point of view?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Here's a news flash for you, squirt:

When I come to My God, I argue religion. When I go to Politics, I argue politics. When I go to S&A, I argue sex.

I am 27 years old. I have 3 children, and I've been married to hyroglyphx for 4 years. I've been around the world, served my country, lost a child, recovered from abuse and drug addiction, and a whole host of other "realities". I have lived more in one lifetime than most of you ever will.

You've got more problems than even WE can identify if you seriously think all I know about is religion. And Politics.

I wasn't born a Christian, ya know. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

BOOO FUCKING HOO! Seriously, all I ever hear you do is bitch. On every single fucking thread. BITCH BITCH BITCH BITCH BITCH. All your posts just need to be automatically forwarded to bitch and moan.

POSTED BY INTEREST: "Your quoting a man who paved the way for the greatest, most feared weapon of all time. He is an author of fear and circumstance with all his wisdom and knowledge. I hope he wasn't also trying to define the morale clause for its use."

The atomic bomb was invented by two refugee German scientists in Britain, Professor Rudolph Peierls and Otto Frisch, of Birmingham University.

NOT ALBERT EINSTIEN

If you were educated you would have known : "Einstein's greatest role in the invention of the atomic bomb was signing a letter to President Franklin Roosevelt urging that the bomb be built."

He didn't even write the letter. He was an anti-war pacifist. Why did he sign it you ask? This is because Nazi Germany was building atomic weapons and he feared they would succeed in conquering the world and controlling it under Nazi rule, unless we built it first. The two refugee scientists who fled Germany only needed his help because of his reputation it would not be ignored as an urgent issue.

2nd of all, I didn't just quote him. Your lack of research just shows you are too ignorant to know about the other person so you attacked whatever you thought you knew about, and it turned out to be FALSE information.

If your not credible with standard information, why should I trust something as important as a soul to your religious beliefs?

"He is an author of fear and circumstance with all his wisdom and knowledge."

He is a very wise person. Wiser than you, he is also more knowledgeable than you. He has contributed more to society that you, your ancestors or your offspring will ever contribute. Prove me otherwise? I'm sure you have a list of achievements that revolutionized the world? No, you don't.

POSTED BY INTEREST: "The commandment laws of God can preserve us when followed and lead to our destruction when we walk away from them which everyone of us has the free choice to do. "

I'm sure many people who prayed and got killed war after war, civilians, women, and children, were freely following god. 6 Million Jews. They may not believe in Jesus but the god of the old testament which (depending on your beliefs) is the same god that is the father of Jesus, so they prayed to YOUR god and got punished. I don't think what happened to them should have.

"The end will be the final period of the story of our lives which stands as a testimony of who we are."

I agree, and disagree. Is it right to be judged by the last days of our lives, or be judged by out whole lives? Someone who claims to have moral status enough to state something like that shouldn't be afraid of the skeletons in your closet. You don't have any right? Of course not your Christian.

POSTED BY INTEREST: (of course this is the crux of the debate - who defines what is right and what is wrong?)

Not you, you didn't even know basic history, much less should be trusted with philosophical matters and even worse push them on others.

I'm still open to that debate by the way.

quote:I am 27 years old. I have 3 children, and I've been married to hyroglyphx for 4 years. I've been around the world, served my country, lost a child, recovered from abuse and drug addiction, and a whole host of other "realities". I have lived more in one lifetime than most of you ever will.

DS, you having sex, doing drugs does not make you more experianced as to tell us what gods we should and shouldn't believe. Now losing a child is a big deal, and I respect you for living through that, but it doesn't mean your right. I hardly consider what you've said to give you the right to say you've lived more in one lifetime then we ever will.

quote:No, I'm a real person that has been through enough to know what I am talking about on a great number of issues.

I'm not some 13 year old snot-nosed kid, eating Cheeto's, wanking to horse porn in my parents' basement.

I've had a hard life. How does that make me a fuck up ? You're a punk, and that's all there is to it.

Lastly, I didn't run to God for help. In fact, I resisted Him for way too long, though if I had run to Him, I wouldn't be ashamed of it.

Hey guess what I'm a real person too!

If I'm not Christian that doesn't make me a fake person. Or someone your better than.

(addressing each issue in the order it was said)

1. I don't see how your qualified to preach to other people beliefs just because your life is hard doesn't mean we have to come to the same conclusion as you.

2. I'm not some 13 year old dick head, so please don't try to use that to descredit my post, as well as other valid points

3. I had a rough life too, in fact its still rough. Maybe we are both fuck ups? Or however you'd like to view it.

4rth and finally... maybe one day I will come to the same conclusion as you about god but for the time being I don't see it happening.

Also as a P.S. stop fucking swearing at the Christians. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) They will listen even less.

Because maybe if we spoon feed them reason...

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 04-11-2006).]

quote:But you, you have this belief that the Bible is 100% correct and you force it down everyone’s throats as the only answer to life, when in fact there is many.

DS:

A belief grounded on solid historical/archeological research and empirical data...not to mention the spiritual experiences I have had.

Don't know how I missed that one...

"The continually progressive change to which the meaning of words is subject, the want of a universal language which renders translation necessary, the errors to which translations are again subject, the mistakes of copyists and printers, together with the possibility of willful alteration, are of themselves evidences that the human language, whether in speech or in print, cannot be the vehicle of the Word of God. The Word of God exists in something else."

[Thomas Paine, Age of Reason]

"That God cannot lie, is no advantage to your argument, because it is no proof that priests can not, or that the Bible does not."

[The Life and Works of Thomas Paine, Vol. 9 p. 134]

"As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole book."

[Thomas Paine, Letter to William Duane, April 23, 1806]

"My earlier views at the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."

[Abraham Lincoln, letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln]

and an end note:

"...difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

[Thomas Jefferson, "Notes on the State of Virginia [1781-1785]"]

Everything just went dead silent.

Looks like My God DID Beat the Shit Out of Your God.

People, learn how to quote properly!!!

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

Everything just went dead silent.

Looks like My God DID Beat the Shit Out of Your God.

Or, you're just completely self-centered and can't comprehend that other people have lives.

Either way, you're the only one engaged in this argument, at present.

quote:Originally posted by Apoxyus:

BOOO FUCKING HOO! Seriously, all I ever hear you do is bitch. On every single fucking thread. BITCH BITCH BITCH BITCH BITCH. All your posts just need to be automatically forwarded to bitch and moan.

Likewise. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

ignorance is bliss

I wasn't asking what it meant. I was asking what his opinion on the subject was...but thanks for butting in where you were invited. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



I am 27 years old. I have 3 children, and I've been married to hyroglyphx for 4 years. I've been around the world, served my country, lost a child, recovered from abuse and drug addiction, and a whole host of other "realities". I have lived more in one lifetime than most of you ever will.

This is an argument for what exactly? Does experience in motherhood or marriage give you an advantage anywhere else besides marriage and motherhood? No. Stop trying to use them as evidence of intellectuality or maturity.

Hardships make one more vulnerable. Addictions hint that one was vulnerable enough to succumb to them. The only thing I get from your personal ad is a clear picture of why you became a christian : replacing a previous addiction with one that provides an illusion of strength for your vulnerable tortured self.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



It also forces you to think about things from angles you may not have previously considered. In short, you LEARN when you debate.

What exactly have you learned from debating here? You haven't moved an inch from your positions like brick walls do. And brick walls never learn anything. Debates do nothing for you so don't pretend you are here for the virtues of debate. You are here to spread your mind virus which we now know why you caught it in the first place.



[This message has been edited by elfstone (edited 04-12-2006).]

Digital saviour you suck.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I wasn't asking what it meant. I was asking what his opinion on the subject was...but thanks for butting in where you were invited. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

oh, sorry for butting in on a public message board

besides that's bullshit, you have been trying to argue morals come from god since page one.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

You're an idiot to think that without religion we wouldn't have morals. You don't not need a god to tell you murder is wrong, it's pretty easy to figure that out on your own.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Where do morals orginate from, then ?

If you believe in evolutionary theory, then you believe we came from a single-celled organism, and evolved from there.

What purpose would any organisms, between the single-cell and what we are today, have in developing morality ?

HOW could morality develope ?

There are many cultures in which murder is NOT wrong, but merely a way of life.





when him and i both made basically the same point about morals in animals, you responded with a flippant remark.

so how bout you stop your evasive posts and tell me which culture thinks murder is ok. which by the way completely contradicts the concept of god-given morals.



[This message has been edited by kenwih (edited 04-12-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

I’m an atheist and philosophically an absurdist. I see religion as something that causes hate, confusion, fear, division among people, ignorance. I used to be so naïve that I believed I could actually in someway stop this. But I’ve given up.

I’m just going to live my life and enjoy it, I only get one. I’ve had enough of arguing. I no longer see the point.

Altough you no longer believe in God, He still believes in you. Im not going to say that your a demon and you should burn in hell. Travel the path you have chosen and eventually along the way you will come a similiar cross road like this and when that time comes you will know which direction you will continue leading your life. But until then, enjoy.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Debate strengthens tactical skills, and strengthens your ability to communicate. It also forces you to think about things from angles you may not have previously considered. In short, you LEARN when you debate.

It's not surprising that people as uneducated and bigoted as you two wouldn't be interested in such things.

You'll be back, though. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Of course. Sheeeeesh.

I'm not uneducated or bigoted. I also don't just randomly insult people without backing it up with reasons.

I'm definetely not bigoted against you if that's what you're after- I don't hate you, I actually like you. And you are free to believe what you like, but it needs to stay out of school and the law. I'm sick of anti-gay marriage being justified by the bible, because even bible thumpers should know that doesn't mean shit in the government. If homosexuality is wrong, it must be proven so on its own merit.

By the way, this is more proof of one of the statements I made earlier that I did back up with evidence- Christians start with the assumption that they are right, then assert that if you don't believe them, you are uneducated, stupid, or bigoted against christianity.

Do you think that pedophilia should be legalized?

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I can only imagine what the world would be like if there was no spiritual direction. Take away the ten commandments and even your very existence is in question. It is good we have the influence of the commandments among us. Else, you and I would be hunting or hunted like wild beasts of the field.

Say what you may about the doctrines of God but you have to begin to see the wisdom in the restraint of the beastman in us all? I hope.

Nope. See, funny story, true story, turns out I knew the moral truths of the commandments (except the sabbath bullshit which has nothing to do with morality) all along. Everyone does.

So to God, thank you Captain Obvious.

Of course, on all other critical moral issues, in his Guidance of Christians, to God, thank you Mr. Ambiguos.

"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."

-Thomas Jefferson

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

-Thomas Jefferson

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I don't recall ever saying you need religion to have morales. Morales, in this case, is something still yet to be defined. You're taking the stance that all mankind is beyond evil and capable of setting a measure of conduct that even the law makers are capable of following. I shudder at the utopian view of humanism you hold. Take a walk on the wild side my friend. Reality says something differnt.

I've been around long enough to see what men do in the light of day and you will have a hard sell to tell me we have the ability to discern what is good and what is bad by our own interpretations.

On this forum alone I'm sure there are a hundered different views on how you and I should be allowed to live. In fact I just read how somebody would like to smash the skulls of Christians. Brilliant, should we follow those morales? Where murder is bad..relativily speaking as long as you aren't a Christian. I'm sure that plenty of people here would think that killing a Christian is ok. How's that for morales? I'm not buying what you are selling.

Please, don't try to sell me on the idea of the communist ideology of athiest humanism is the light of the world.



There is only one thing consistent about man-made morales - they change directions by the wind of trends.



And the only thing consistent about christian stances on critical moral issues is...nothing.

God didn't really tell us what the hell to do very clearly, now did he?

I mean my bad, I'm sure whatever christian reads this knows for sure that God tells him what is right and that everyone else is misguided somehow...right...

Hmm, good observation, people aren't perfect. I hope you have the common sense to know that people on the site who talk about bashing in skulls are joking and would never actually do that.

I also hope you know that that wouldn't effect morality at all. You christians have a brutally disgusting history with the crusades and inquisition.

Morality is just the avoidance of unnecessary harm and the promotion of good. We, by nature, avoid pain and attempt to survive. Morality is just avoiding pain. Not hard. Not based on opinion. Every one of your commandments comes down to avoiding harm, except that they make things into absolutes that obviously aren't moral absolutes (like lying) but whatever.

Atheists aren't perfect but it doens't change the moral truth of the world. Duh.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Do you think that pedophilia should be legalized?



HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA

I love the baiting on this forum.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

Your quoting a man who paved the way for the greatest, most feared weapon of all time. He is an author of fear and circumstance with all his wisdom and knowledge. I hope he wasn't also trying to define the morale clause for its use.

A scientist is certainly not the person to seek direction on morale clarity since the activity in science often crosses the line and breaches the God ordained directives of humanity.

I would see why a scientist would do their best to tear down those restraints of God's laws. They often are hindered by those laws of nature which they so much want to redefine for their own gains.

The commandment laws of God can preserve us when followed and lead to our destruction when we walk away from them which everyone of us has the free choice to do.

Unlike what some people believe, God will not zap you with a lightening bolt when you do wrong (of course this is the crux of the debate - who defines what is right and what is wrong?)

The end will be the final period of the story of our lives which stands as a testimony of who we are. The awesome thing is for the one who believes in the Christ Jesus - all the bad things and debts to God are taken out and paid for. What a great marvel it is to have a clear conscience knowing the days of sorrow are gone.



Albert Einstein was one of the most brilliant people of all time. It shows how consumed with your religion you are that you would attempt to demean his genius because he doesn't agree with you.

Also, his points are completely right.

Not because I instill some great infallible authority in him, but because they hold up on their own merit, no faith required.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I don't interpret it. I read the Bible, and see clearly what God is telling us. It's not a mystery.

That's interesting. Apparently every christian except the ones who agree exactly with you on every issue perfectly in every way, somehow don't clearly read what God is telling us, but you do, because you're special.

Glad we cleared that up.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Do you think that pedophilia should be legalized?

I don't know who you are asking, but I can answer for myself.

No. The answer is because it causes unnecessary harm. Every moral stance can be reasoned by that philosophy. It's not hard, it doesn't fluctuate, it only changes based on whether or not it causes harm. I should note that christianity doesn't. Apparently, lying is always wrong, even when it avoids harm and promotes good. If a girl asks me how she looks, I tell her she looks great. I may be lying, but I'm being a great guy.

I'm not sure what you were trying to show with that.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:



Albert Einstein was one of the most brilliant people of all time. It shows how consumed with your religion you are that you would attempt to demean his genius because he doesn't agree with you.

Also, his points are completely right.

Not because I instill some great infallible authority in him, but because they hold up on their own merit, no faith required.

and what has that gained him today?

You see that Eienstein was some kind of great genius for what he has discovered. What I'm saying is there is one far greater then einstein in wisdom and knowledge in fact all Einstein saw was what God created. (and the debate of God vs. science goes on)



Again, I say if we are setting our morale compass on science then we are headed for some dark times.

I'm sure we can dig up some great atrocity created by science and medical advancements and so on. Science is by far not innocent of harmful things. So far the only common thread among it all is man doing it mans way.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Nope. See, funny story, true story, turns out I knew the moral truths of the commandments (except the sabbath bullshit which has nothing to do with morality) all along. Everyone does.

So to God, thank you Captain Obvious.

Of course, on all other critical moral issues, in his Guidance of Christians, to God, thank you Mr. Ambiguos.

Fiar enough..I guess we don't need to talk about these things anymore.



quote:

"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."

-Thomas Jefferson



I think Thomas Jefferson misunderstood the simple fact that deeds have nothing to do with salvation. What I mean is there isn't enough old ladies to help across the street to get into heaven. The teaching is it is a gift from God. By the grace of God we have salvation. Through our belief and repententce through Christ Jesus is the way. This kind of dispells the issue with the good deeds the athiests do. It will not get them into heaven as if on the final day is gone and we are all standing at the judgement seat there is not going to be some kind of balance weighing the difference between your rights and wrongs so a decision can be based on the outcome.

The only way out from judgement and atonement for breaking God's laws is accepting the one whom He sent for the sins of all mankind.

Athiests don't have a play in this...you don't believe in God which is the only requirement for the inheritence.

quote:

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

-Thomas Jefferson

Therefore, it has to be wrong? Some things are hidden and confused for a reason. I've spent a lot of time studying the bible. In fact I've probably read it over 14 times or so in total. I can tell that everything that seems out of place is because of not understanding what preceded it. Now, I don't claim to know that Thomas Jefferson was well studied in the scripture or not but I can say that if anybody has found a contradiction has not tried hard enough to understand why it appears that way. Many things aren't always as they seem.

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-13-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

and what has that gained him today?

You see that Eienstein was some kind of great genius for what he has discovered. What I'm saying is there is one far greater then einstein in wisdom and knowledge in fact all Einstein saw was what God created. (and the debate of God vs. science goes on)



Again, I say if we are setting our morale compass on science then we are headed for some dark times.

I'm sure we can dig up some great atrocity created by science and medical advancements and so on. Science is by far not innocent of harmful things. So far the only common thread among it all is man doing it mans way.

Yes, the classic Christianity vs. Science. Not God vs. Science, because God is just simply the most brilliant scientist ever (assuming he exists).

Well, christians burned Galileo at the stake for being right. Now we all now how wrong those silly bible thumpers were back then, right? Good thing we know that he was right though. To quote Mark Twain, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

The fact is, Galileo was right. And we never claimed to be basing our morality off science- just our science off science, as opposed to, I don't know, some non-scientific religious belief held by only part of the religion it is held by that has been disproven by science.

I know christians don't like science because it keeps on disproving their bible, but for chrissake, scientists are not evil people. Everyone invents stuff, and discovers truth.

The difference between science and religion is this:

Science seeks truth where ever it leads.

Religion claims truth, then defends it at all costs.

This is why science continually adapts and gets better- because we continually adapt and get better.

Thank God religious people don't have dominance over science like they would like, or we wouldn't know anything!

Well interest, you bring up the key argument of religion. Jefferson or Twain has a quote on it but I'm not gonna search for it. I'm gonna do a quick runthrough of logical arguments and see where I get.

A perfect creator cannot create an imperfect work ->countered by he can, if a perfect creator creates an imperfect work intentionally he is still perfect.

Meaning God created us imperfectly on purpose.

So then why is it our fault that we sin? God created us imperfect. So what, he gave us freewill and we 'chose' to do wrong, but why can't we be like God? According to christianity (their definition isn't possible but I digress) God has freewill to do anything except a 'contradiction' which would be to do evil. Ignoring the thousands of times he committs unspeakable atrocities of the old testament, God has freedom but just can't commit wrong.

My point is, God went and created us as sinners on purpose, then blames us for fucking up even though he made us less then perfect meaning by definition we have to fuck up.

How is this our fault?

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Well interest, you bring up the key argument of religion. Jefferson or Twain has a quote on it but I'm not gonna search for it. I'm gonna do a quick runthrough of logical arguments and see where I get.

A perfect creator cannot create an imperfect work ->countered by he can, if a perfect creator creates an imperfect work intentionally he is still perfect.

Meaning God created us imperfectly on purpose.

So then why is it our fault that we sin? God created us imperfect. So what, he gave us freewill and we 'chose' to do wrong, but why can't we be like God? According to christianity (their definition isn't possible but I digress) God has freewill to do anything except a 'contradiction' which would be to do evil. Ignoring the thousands of times he committs unspeakable atrocities of the old testament, God has freedom but just can't commit wrong.

My point is, God went and created us as sinners on purpose, then blames us for fucking up even though he made us less then perfect meaning by definition we have to fuck up.

How is this our fault?

It isn't as we inherited the curse of Adam from birth. It is the condition of death.

I have to clarify on one point you made.

All of us carry the bloodline of Adam and Eve. Man was not just male when we were first created. Man was first created male and female as it explains that female was taken out of male. If this happened at a moment or over millions of years of "evolution" isn't clear.

At this point there was still not the condition of sin and death. That could only mean that MAN+WOMAN were created perfectly in the image of God. (albeit, it requires a bit of an assumption to accept that.)

The story goes that God made a covenent with them and all they had to do is obey His one command. Which they were tempted to disobey and they did. From there God put a curse on all mankind for all times since we are all the "seed" of Adam and Eve.

It was one man who condemned us all where it is one man who can save us all. This is the natural condition of our sinful nature. The only way out from this death is through the Christ Jesus.

As for the atrocities in the Old Testament, they serve their purpose. There are many allagorical messages contained in the characters and activities on how to and how not to do things.

Yes, bad things were told about in the bible but all things have to be put in context and we would have to seek the deeper meaning of why those events were recorded and not another.

You and I would have to agree that the bible is not a history book. So then why those events and not others?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

[BIt's not surprising that people as uneducated and bigoted as you two wouldn't be interested in such things.[/B]

See the last time we talked about bigotry you claimed it was a part of the human condition and an inevitability (which it's not) because the word was aimed at you, yet now you want it to be a fallible and ignorant trait.

It's always a game with you. Which way is it going to be spun today with Digital?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Where do morals orginate from, then ?

If you believe in evolutionary theory, then you believe we came from a single-celled organism, and evolved from there.

What purpose would any organisms, between the single-cell and what we are today, have in developing morality ?

HOW could morality develope ?

There are many cultures in which murder is NOT wrong, but merely a way of life.

From an evolutionary standpoint morality could be a very complex way of ensuring the survival of your species. But I'm not a scientist nor a theologist and tend to believe that the universe is beyond full comprehension...at least for me http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

Also keep in mind that all definitions of morality have not stemmed from dogma; probably most if not all philosophers have touched on the concept of morality and there are multiple versions of it. Nietzsche's overman morality for example rejects a guiding principle of all major religions: the belief that life is a facade.

[This message has been edited by Skankinsasquatch (edited 04-13-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Yes, the classic Christianity vs. Science. Not God vs. Science, because God is just simply the most brilliant scientist ever (assuming he exists).

Well, christians burned Galileo at the stake for being right. Now we all now how wrong those silly bible thumpers were back then, right? Good thing we know that he was right though. To quote Mark Twain, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."



Hence the problem with taking a stance and following one way or another. You automatically take on the history of that group and inherit it's problems as well. I will never sit here and type out that CHristians do no wrong...in fact most of us can do no right as you have witnessed. I don't like hypocrites either.

quote:

The fact is, Galileo was right. And we never claimed to be basing our morality off science- just our science off science, as opposed to, I don't know, some non-scientific religious belief held by only part of the religion it is held by that has been disproven by science.

I've tried to say this in other areas but the government of temporal life and spiritual life are different but mix together. Religion should never be to prepare us for this world but to get us dressed and ready for the one that comes next. (sounds whacky I know but work with me here.) How we conduct ourselves in this world is a testment to the redeemed soul. When we get cocky and start forcing it on others is when we go astray.

quote:

I know christians don't like science because it keeps on disproving their bible, but for chrissake, scientists are not evil people. Everyone invents stuff, and discovers truth.



I love science - but then I look at it as mans discovery of God's creation. It has benefited us in many ways but in our own arrogence it could also be the end of us if we lose site on our immortality in this world.

quote:

The difference between science and religion is this:

Science seeks truth where ever it leads.

Religion claims truth, then defends it at all costs.

This is why science continually adapts and gets better- because we continually adapt and get better.

I'm in agreement up to a point. We can think of "religion" as an anchor for our souls. Science and religion are very seperate things. However, when science crosses those boundries that many people not only hold sacred but do see the eventual outcome of living that way will of course recieve resistence at the minimum and flat out sedition if necessary. Science has thus far discovered all the laws of nature but contintue to try and break those boundries.

The bottom line is a soul is still a soul despite how we view ourselves. That is one thing that has remained the same from the very begining.

quote:

Thank God religious people don't have dominance over science like they would like, or we wouldn't know anything!

I don't think religious people want to dominate science. (Though I may be a bit moderate on this view - there are many technophobes out there that would rather just live in cabins and live off the land.) I think the issue is the ethical boundries we should try to avoid crossing. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. However, I don't think man can listen even when the writing is on the wall.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-13-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

...tell me which culture thinks murder is ok...

The Vikings. Some of the rockingest bastards in the world. The samurai had no code requiring them not to murder. They could chop anyone's head off if they liked. Nazis and their progeny tend to have this passion for killing people. Look at the fucking Rwandans. There's plenty of them. Look at any cannibal tribes. Heck, the American culture. Any country with an army's culture. Probably the only people in the world who ABSOLUTELY do not believe in even the option of murder are the Amish and the Mennonites.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

The Vikings. Some of the rockingest bastards in the world. The samurai had no code requiring them not to murder. They could chop anyone's head off if they liked. Nazis and their progeny tend to have this passion for killing people. Look at the fucking Rwandans. There's plenty of them. Look at any cannibal tribes. Heck, the American culture. Any country with an army's culture. Probably the only people in the world who ABSOLUTELY do not believe in even the option of murder are the Amish and the Mennonites.



These examples have nothing to do with a culture that considers murder moral, not to mention being extreme exaggerations of the truth. A culture that claims murder is moral, would encourage it among their own people - an impossible concept. No such thing ever existed.

Interest, to me, you are the most intelligent christian I have ever met on this site.

You accept the realities of things, and I am very glad that you do so.

So then, cool. I guess we generally agree.



quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

The Vikings. Some of the rockingest bastards in the world. The samurai had no code requiring them not to murder. They could chop anyone's head off if they liked. Nazis and their progeny tend to have this passion for killing people. Look at the fucking Rwandans. There's plenty of them. Look at any cannibal tribes. Heck, the American culture. Any country with an army's culture. Probably the only people in the world who ABSOLUTELY do not believe in even the option of murder are the Amish and the Mennonites.



The funny thing is, the Vikings were great moral people in another way. They were one of the very first (if not the first) cultures to treat women as their equals. They allowed women to divorce men, gave them equal protection under the law, and allowed them to testify in court.

The bible doesn't even come close to this moral feat. I know that christians may not pick up on this because they read the bible subjectively, but it is ridiculously sexist against women.

Cultural morality has been a hit and miss game, from the Vikings, to the Jews, to the Muslims, to the Christians, apparently everyone is missing a good sized piece of the puzzle (although they will all claim to have it 100% right).

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

The Vikings. Some of the rockingest bastards in the world. The samurai had no code requiring them not to murder. They could chop anyone's head off if they liked. Nazis and their progeny tend to have this passion for killing people. Look at the fucking Rwandans. There's plenty of them. Look at any cannibal tribes. Heck, the American culture. Any country with an army's culture. Probably the only people in the world who ABSOLUTELY do not believe in even the option of murder are the Amish and the Mennonites.



i think you are confusing murder and killing.

the vikings were actually very advanced, technologically and morally. they may have looted and razed a few coastal villages, but alls fair in war. they did not murder each other. they may have fought duels, but that's more about honorable combat than murder.

the samurai were allowed to execute peasants who violate etiquette. this is not murder.

nazis performed eugenics programs and killed people that were not of their culture. this is not murder.

rwandans fight tribal warfare driven by local warlords. they fight other peoples, not their own. they fight for food and land. killing in war is not murder.

cannabils typically eat enemy tribes or an evil shaman that cast a spell on them. if they are eating each other, it is a time of famine.

wtf, you think america is a culture of murder? this invalidates your entire post!

'army culture' is an erronous term. besides, any killing that occurs in combat is not murder.

no culture in the world allows murder.

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Main Entry: 1mur·der

Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r

Function: noun

Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal

1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

2 a : something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b : something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Main Entry: 1kill

Pronunciation: 'kil

Function: verb

Etymology: Middle English, perhaps from (assumed) Old English cyllan; akin to Old English cwellan to kill -- more at QUELL

transitive senses

1 a : to deprive of life b (1) : to slaughter (as a hog) for food (2) : to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering

2 a : to put an end to <kill competition> b : DEFEAT, VETO <killed the amendment> c : to mark for omission; also : DELETE

3 a : to destroy the vital or essential quality of <killed the pain with drugs> b : to cause to stop <kill the motor> c : to check the flow of current through

4 : to make a markedly favorable impression on <she killed the audience>

5 : to get through uneventfully <kill time>; also : to get through (the time of a penalty) without being scored on <kill a penalty>

6 a : to cause extreme pain to b : to tire almost to the point of collapse

7 : to hit (a shot) so hard in various games that a return is impossible

8 : to consume (as a drink) totally

intransitive senses

1 : to deprive one of life

2 : to make a markedly favorable impression <was dressed to kill>

synonyms KILL, SLAY, MURDER, ASSASSINATE, DISPATCH, EXECUTE mean to deprive of life. KILL merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner <killed in an accident> <frost killed the plants>. SLAY is a chiefly literary term implying deliberateness and violence but not necessarily motive <slew thousands of the Philistines>. MURDER specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility <convicted of murdering a rival>. ASSASSINATE applies to deliberate killing openly or secretly often for political motives <terrorists assassinated the Senator>. DISPATCH stresses quickness and directness in putting to death <dispatched the sentry with one bullet>. EXECUTE stresses putting to death as a legal penalty <executed by lethal gas>.

you should really think before you post next time.

You guys should read some Nietzsche. You’ll see how much bullshit these moral ‘slave ethics’ are.

I’m off to go live the life of an atheist with noble ethics.

No eternal reward will forgive you for wasting the dawn.

Enjoy your stupid squabbling. This time I’m really done with all this pointlessness.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

You guys should read some Nietzsche. You’ll see how much bullshit these moral ‘slave ethics’ are.

I’m off to go live the life of an atheist with noble ethics.

No eternal reward will forgive you for wasting the dawn.

Enjoy your stupid squabbling. This time I’m really done with all this pointlessness.

Nobility is usually handed down by one who deems you worthy. By exalting yourself you put yourself in danger of being humbled. I only say this as advice so that we may not "waste the dawn".

The thing we can all benefit from the most here is to see where we are in the big scheme of things. There is not one of us above and beyond anybody else here as we all face the grave.

Whether a day of judgment is reserved for us or not is not important at this moment. The important thing to embrace is peace among one another and to seek true love if it is possible.

God is divisive by nature and for His reason. I hope the day of reckoning for you is mild my friend. Some of us require to be stripped of everything and left for dead before we look up and ask God to save us. That door is always open to whoever seeks it. I testify to it as being true with all that I am and for all of it's worth to you.

This is it, man. We’re born with a death sentence, but until that day comes we are totally free in a meaningless world to make our own choices, make our own ethics, our own morals, our own lifestyle, our own way of interpreting the world, our own way of enjoying the world.

Yes, I agree we need social structure or the world would be fucked up. But we are personally free.

I don’t need a god and promises of an afterlife to enjoy life and make myself feel good and righteous, I feel good in myself and I don’t need righteousness. This world is enough for me. Nature is beautiful and there is so much to see in a short lifetime. You only get one glimpse at the universe before you’re gone. And when you’re dead you’re dead, none of this will matter. None of this does matter. But this big, meaningless piece of nothingness is beautiful and I want to embrace and enjoy it in what you would consider a hedonistic way with no dogmatic, repressive restraints.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

This is it, man. We’re born with a death sentence, but until that day comes we are totally free in a meaningless world to make our own choices, make our own ethics, our own morals, our own lifestyle, our own way of interpreting the world, our own way of enjoying the world.

Yes, I agree we need social structure or the world would be fucked up. But we are personally free.

I don’t need a god and promises of an afterlife to enjoy life and make myself feel good and righteous, I feel good in myself and I don’t need righteousness. This world is enough for me. Nature is beautiful and there is so much to see in a short lifetime. You only get one glimpse at the universe before you’re gone. And when you’re dead you’re dead, none of this will matter. None of this does matter. But this big, meaningless piece of nothingness is beautiful and I want to embrace and enjoy it in what you would consider a hedonistic way with no dogmatic, repressive restraints.

You are right - I agree with you and how can I disagree? If I did, It's like telling someone that they see is red is really blue. If you see red, then you see red. If I told you anything else I would be lying.

You see what you see and I see what I see. To me, it's just a matter of perspectives and vantage points. If you are getting ready to climb a mountain and meet someone on the way down from already climbing it you could see that persons experience could be helpful?

Look, man, if you think that somewhere along my life I’m going to have a revelation and think ‘oh my god, Christ is real. Praise Jesus!’ than you are wrong. You can keep thinking that if it makes you happy though.

You have your God that makes you happy, as long as you don’t start asserting your beliefs in a harmful way - anti-gay etc - I’m fine with that. But why can’t you accept I’m happy without a God? You say you’re fine with it, but it’s obvious you’re not, you have this delusion that one day I will ‘see the light.’

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

Look, man, if you think that somewhere along my life I’m going to have a revelation and think ‘oh my god, Christ is real. Praise Jesus!’ than you are wrong. You can keep thinking that if it makes you happy though.

You have your God that makes you happy, as long as you don’t start asserting your beliefs in a harmful way - anti-gay etc - I’m fine with that. But why can’t you accept I’m happy without a God? You say you’re fine with it, but it’s obvious you’re not, you have this delusion that one day I will ‘see the light.’

I could only hope (pray) that you would. That is all I have left to do.

See ya around ~

Don’t you dare pray for me. Nothing pisses me off more than knowing some self-righteous person who thinks he is helping me by dropping God a good word about me. Do not waste your time on me, you only have so much.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

Don’t you dare pray for me. Nothing pisses me off more than knowing some self-righteous person who thinks he is helping me by dropping God a good word about me. Do not waste your time on me, you only have so much.

You got it..I don't care to piss you off nor consider that I am helping you...I'm just speaking my mind here. ~ peace

However, what if I did pray and not tell you? Would that be better?

LAWL

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

i think you are confusing murder and killing.

the vikings were actually very advanced, technologically and morally. they may have looted and razed a few coastal villages, but alls fair in war. they did not murder each other. they may have fought duels, but that's more about honorable combat than murder.

the samurai were allowed to execute peasants who violate etiquette. this is not murder.

nazis performed eugenics programs and killed people that were not of their culture. this is not murder.

rwandans fight tribal warfare driven by local warlords. they fight other peoples, not their own. they fight for food and land. killing in war is not murder.

cannabils typically eat enemy tribes or an evil shaman that cast a spell on them. if they are eating each other, it is a time of famine.

wtf, you think america is a culture of murder? this invalidates your entire post!

'army culture' is an erronous term. besides, any killing that occurs in combat is not murder.

no culture in the world allows murder.

htt p://www.we bster.com/ cgi-bin/di ctionary (http: //www.webs ter.com/cg i-bin/dict ionary)

Main Entry: 1mur·der

Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r

Function: noun

Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal

1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

2 a : something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b : something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Main Entry: 1kill

Pronunciation: 'kil

Function: verb

Etymology: Middle English, perhaps from (assumed) Old English cyllan; akin to Old English cwellan to kill -- more at QUELL

transitive senses

1 a : to deprive of life b (1) : to slaughter (as a hog) for food (2) : to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering

2 a : to put an end to <kill competition> b : DEFEAT, VETO <killed the amendment> c : to mark for omission; also : DELETE

3 a : to destroy the vital or essential quality of <killed the pain with drugs> b : to cause to stop <kill the motor> c : to check the flow of current through

4 : to make a markedly favorable impression on <she killed the audience>

5 : to get through uneventfully <kill time>; also : to get through (the time of a penalty) without being scored on <kill a penalty>

6 a : to cause extreme pain to b : to tire almost to the point of collapse

7 : to hit (a shot) so hard in various games that a return is impossible

8 : to consume (as a drink) totally

intransitive senses

1 : to deprive one of life

2 : to make a markedly favorable impression <was dressed to kill>

synonyms KILL, SLAY, MURDER, ASSASSINATE, DISPATCH, EXECUTE mean to deprive of life. KILL merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner <killed in an accident> <frost killed the plants>. SLAY is a chiefly literary term implying deliberateness and violence but not necessarily motive <slew thousands of the Philistines>. MURDER specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility <convicted of murdering a rival>. ASSASSINATE applies to deliberate killing openly or secretly often for political motives <terrorists assassinated the Senator>. DISPATCH stresses quickness and directness in putting to death <dispatched the sentry with one bullet>. EXECUTE stresses putting to death as a legal penalty <executed by lethal gas>.

you should really think before you post next time.



Murder and killing are one and the same. Either way, one is causing another human being to die. I doubt if the dead people consider it "lawful" that they died.

quote:MURDER specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility <convicted of murdering a rival>.

I seriously doubt if two armies massacring each other are committing crimes of passion. They don't show up at a battlefield one day and for no particular reason decide to start killing each other, no? I suppose then, that war involves murder.

Would you consider honor killings murder? When a man kills his wife or daughter or female relative because he believes she was unfaithful or that she dishonored the family by having carnal relations with a man who is not her husband. Naw, I guess it's not murder, because those people are simply following a deeply ingrained code of ethics that legitimizes those sorts of killings.

9/11 was sanctioned by Osama bin Laden himself, a great ruler among terrorists, his law states that Americans must die. I think we should forgive him. All he did was lawfully kill some people.

America's army spends a lot of time killing people (well, any army for that matter). Did you know that in Iraq it's illegal to kill people (like most countries as a matter of fact)? So when US soldiers march in and start shooting people, that's sort of classified as murder, no? It has all the necessary qualities: motive, premeditation, stealth (sometimes), and it's against the law in Iraq for people to kill other people, so, yep, looks like that American army is a bunch of murderers.

stfu you idiot.

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

stfu you idiot.

What an insightful, clever response, although between you and me, I think you were a bit too subtle. Maybe next time you should just confess that you're retarded.

ok fine i'm forced to explain why you are an idiot.



quote:

Murder and killing are one and the same. Either way, one is causing another human being to die. I doubt if the dead people consider it "lawful" that they died. \



murder an killing are not the same. if you can't accept this than you are at odds with the american legal system, christian morals, and society as a whole.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MURDER specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility <convicted of murdering a rival>.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

I seriously doubt if two armies massacring each other are committing crimes of passion. They don't show up at a battlefield one day and for no particular reason decide to start killing each other, no? I suppose then, that war involves murder.



i like how you used the synonym description of murder, not the actual defenition, in your 'refutation' your reasoning is so ascinine that if you believe it you are an idiot.

quote:

Would you consider honor killings murder? When a man kills his wife or daughter or female relative because he believes she was unfaithful or that she dishonored the family by having carnal relations with a man who is not her husband. Naw, I guess it's not murder, because those people are simply following a deeply ingrained code of ethics that legitimizes those sorts of killings.



pretty much yeah. cultural relativism, look it up.

quote:

9/11 was sanctioned by Osama bin Laden himself, a great ruler among terrorists, his law states that Americans must die. I think we should forgive him. All he did was lawfully kill some people.



yes, it was a holy war

to us it's murder, but to them it's justified killing because we are not of the same culture. that is the whole point, a culture that sanctions murder. none of your examples show this.

quote:

America's army spends a lot of time killing people (well, any army for that matter). Did you know that in Iraq it's illegal to kill people (like most countries as a matter of fact)? So when US soldiers march in and start shooting people, that's sort of classified as murder, no? It has all the necessary qualities: motive, premeditation, stealth (sometimes), and it's against the law in Iraq for people to kill other people, so, yep, looks like that American army is a bunch of murderers.



are you really serious? you must be just playing devils advocate here. killing in war is not murder. read the definition of murder again (as in not the example of a synym to kill, but the actual def. of murder) and re-think your position.

Murder and killing are absolutly identical, it is only your fabricated morals which create any distinction between them.

Digital_saviour you represent the kind of theist that really annoys me, one who has led a "sinful" life, before "finding" God, and turning their life around to ignorantly preach and condemn. Religion relies upon "Truth", a singular "answer" to life to which all flows, anyone who has not convinced themself of this concept can see how rediculous it is. The arrogance of the Christians in this thread is astonishing as well, and the wild claims even more absurd.

Someone brought up "do you think pedophilia should be legal" as some kind of "moral revelation" to us "heathens", well numbnuts pedophilia IS legal and this will never change, it is part of some human beings which seems to manifest for whatever reason. Acting on pedophilic desires is however illegal in most places in the world, not because of a "god given absolute divine law", but because human beings are social creatures who seek to reproduce, and the mass rape of infants would not benefit the human race much...

I accept that the notion of "winning" in these kind of arguments is stupid, and imo that is partly what makes life so wonderful, the variation, the difference, the energy, the LACK of truth, it all combines to give human beings the motivation to LIVE life, even if they choose to delude themselves with religion in the meantime. Christians "know" the truth, they have accepted Christ as their saviour and God as the big-shot, and yet they continue to reside with us lower buggers on earth, with the hope of nagging/bullying until weaker minds "see the Truth". I find this despicable, and even the nicest Christians i know are guilty of it.

I guess i just hate Christianities notion of reality, the idea that God could create everything out of nothing meaning everything is mearly a concept of God's will, and we as humans must then continue to live out his warped role-play choosing to reject "sin" and accept only "the good" even if it goes against our most natural desires. I guess if christianity was "the Truth" (tbh i don't really believe in such a concept at all anymore) then life would seem extremely ghey to me, a world filled with hell-doomed individuals and those destined to "eternity" in heaven...

I could never sum up all my beliefs in this one post, but really what i'm trying to put across is the messege to Christians that you have not (and cannot) "win" at life, preach, kill, do whatever but when it comes down to it you have failed. A perfect world would suck the cock, as would a perfect heaven. Deal with it and move on, stop being such illogical-elitists.

quote:Or, you're just completely self-centered and can't comprehend that other people have lives.

Either way, you're the only one engaged in this argument, at present.

Digital_Savior, if I was the only one engaged in the argument, why respond? Besides, insulting me in an immature matter does not dismiss my argument and I believe you said this out of desperation. Also insulting me is most likely a sin. I forgive you.

Interest, you saying that the greatest minds did not understand the bible makes me doubt you do, since odds are you understand it less.

You can twist things like this out of proportion till they mean whatever you want. People do this with the predictions of the "telepathic" all the time. The truth is if you

want it to be true, you can rationalize the hell out of it. Look at all the people who get palms read etc. The predictions are vague enough to come true most of the time, or if there is a set date, this normally proves the prophet to be a liar/nutcase.

Now I think Jesus is a good person, and the things he said were true but Christians have soiled his preaching. Remember when he got angry at the people selling animals for sacrifice? Shouldn't you be angry at the people selling the rosery and other merchandise?

It's the same thing just less animals dead, and actually, if you eat meat, then there's not much difference...

Just think about it.

What post are you referring to?