k people i got sum thing on my mind. why do so many christians in the south act like sinning should be punishable by death. eg. being gay, unwedded sex, and so on. yes these are sins but why do we hate sinners so much. by the way im catholic. isnt gods way the way of peace and love. then why do we put up ads like god laughs when fags die. i mean common who are these people to say wut god is thinking. its just like in the past when the kings said that only they could talk to god. u know thats bullshit. and how people are so judgemental about unwedded sex. didnt jesus forgive a whore and told her that god still loves her. so if we are trying to be closer to god then why do we hate instead of love.

It's all about patriarchy and social stratification. Just look at all the lies the christian right makes up about homosexuals. The only logical reason they embark on campaigns such as this is to create status and prestige for themselves.

quote:Originally posted by Bruce4444:

k people i got sum thing on my mind. why do so many christians in the south act like sinning should be punishable by death. eg. being gay, unwedded sex, and so on. yes these are sins but why do we hate sinners so much. by the way im catholic. isnt gods way the way of peace and love. then why do we put up ads like god laughs when fags die. i mean common who are these people to say wut god is thinking. its just like in the past when the kings said that only they could talk to god. u know thats bullshit. and how people are so judgemental about unwedded sex. didnt jesus forgive a whore and told her that god still loves her. so if we are trying to be closer to god then why do we hate instead of love.

You are right on all accounts. However, what isn't being taught is forgiveness through repentance. All of us are in no better shape then the homosexuals, lying kings, adultery and so on if it weren't for our ability to repent of those things and be forgiven by the "blood of the lamb"

One thing to remember is that the people Jesus forgave also stopped what it was they were doing. Jesus didn't just say your sins are forgiven. He also said go and do these things no more.

Just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't mean they are.

I'll try to put it in perspective. If your parents give you a curfew of 10pm and you keep coming home at 11pm. They will eventually punish you for it. Just by you saying I'm sorry I will stop doing it isn't enough on it's own. Of course you have to start obeying their rules. I know this may sound condescending to some but it is that elementary.

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-13-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

It's all about patriarchy and social stratification. Just look at all the lies the christian right makes up about homosexuals. The only logical reason they embark on campaigns such as this is to create status and prestige for themselves.



Actually it's about preserving tomorrows and doing our best to make sure there is a peaceful place for the next generation. Unlike the social debates going on now it seems everyone just wants their fun now and damn the tomorrows. So it is in the culture of death.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Actually it's about preserving tomorrows and doing our best to make sure there is a peaceful place for the next generation. Unlike the social debates going on now it seems everyone just wants their fun now and damn the tomorrows. So it is in the culture of death.





Allowing homosexuals to marry is going to cause war? I don't think there is anything fun about my stance on homosexuality. It's a reality that these people are capable of doing the same things that heterosexuals do.



[This message has been edited by Atomical (edited 04-13-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:



Allowing homosexuals to marry is going to cause war? I don't think there is anything fun about my stance on homosexuality. It's a reality that these people are capable of doing the same things that heterosexuals do.



You are correct on all accounts but one. By the act and passions of homosexuality alone shows the inability to follow the laws of God.

Marriage is a Christine ritual done before the eyes of God to swear and oath of partnership through lifes hardships and good times until the very last breath.

It is offensive to Christines that the homosexual can demand the ability to make the same oath because they are doing an end run around the commandments of God and forcing their way into a place of sancturary reserved by God for a man and a woman.

If you were to call it something other then marriage - for example a civil agreement or something then there is no issue. But the unholy act of gay marriage should not be compared in the same light as those who believe they are getting married to please God.

Understand?

Now if you said gays should be allowed the sancturary of a legal contract between each other by the government then that is a different thing.

However, I feel this thread is going to go in the wrong direction.

quote:Originally posted by Bruce4444:

k people i got sum thing on my mind. why do so many christians in the south act like sinning should be punishable by death. eg. being gay, unwedded sex, and so on. yes these are sins but why do we hate sinners so much. by the way im catholic. isnt gods way the way of peace and love. then why do we put up ads like god laughs when fags die. i mean common who are these people to say wut god is thinking. its just like in the past when the kings said that only they could talk to god. u know thats bullshit. and how people are so judgemental about unwedded sex. didnt jesus forgive a whore and told her that god still loves her. so if we are trying to be closer to god then why do we hate instead of love.

I think you need to move out of wherever you live because they sound jacked up if what you say is true. I wouldn't worry too much about them, God rebukes those who claim His name more harshly than those who don't.

I have to add - to dispell the myth that there is such a thing as the PC "acceptance" in the church. Even Jesus taught that Heaven is not reserved for everybody. In fact he was very divisive in His teachings.

There is a path that one has to follow to get to Heaven. It's called believing, repenting and becoming baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Any earth dwelling human being can come and go into the places where Christians meet but there has to be a sign of "Jonah" eventually. There are exclusionary rules set in place for a reason. There are boundries set for a reason. Those reasons I don't dare spend any time explaining because you have to first believe there is a spirit world to understand there is a constant spirit war being fought. There has to be great cauition as to who we spend time with as we are all very easily lead astray.

For example; why would I want to spend an eternity with somebody who hates me because of what I believe in and doesn't want to do anything other then destroy those things I hold sacred? I guess you would have to believe in an eternal life to answer that as well.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I have to add - to dispell the myth that there is such a thing as the PC "acceptance" in the church. Even Jesus taught that Heaven is not reserved for everybody. In fact he was very divisive in His teachings.

There is a path that one has to follow to get to Heaven. It's called believing, repenting and becoming baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I'm pretty sure all you have to do is believe.

John 3:16

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I have to add - to dispell the myth that there is such a thing as the PC "acceptance" in the church. Even Jesus taught that Heaven is not reserved for everybody. In fact he was very divisive in His teachings.

There is a path that one has to follow to get to Heaven. It's called believing, repenting and becoming baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Any earth dwelling human being can come and go into the places where Christians meet but there has to be a sign of "Jonah" eventually. There are exclusionary rules set in place for a reason. There are boundries set for a reason. Those reasons I don't dare spend any time explaining because you have to first believe there is a spirit world to understand there is a constant spirit war being fought. There has to be great cauition as to who we spend time with as we are all very easily lead astray.

For example; why would I want to spend an eternity with somebody who hates me because of what I believe in and doesn't want to do anything other then destroy those things I hold sacred? I guess you would have to believe in an eternal life to answer that as well.

Well said....

the way i see it even if these sins should be punished i dont believe that other humans have the right to punish them for it. its the descision of god whether or not a person should be punished because of their sexual preference or other sins. i mean exactly how honest is the world today. we have salesmen left and right telling lies about their products. there are holy men of every religion committing sins. i just believe that a world of acceptance of people is better than a world of isolation. now im not sayin we should forgive psychos and killers and criminals, i just dont think it is up to us to decide whether they wil be forgiven or not.

and also how accurate is the bible really. i mean over the years of people messing around with the "teachings of god" most of the lessons might not be true. i mean before people used to say that in order to go to heaven u have to go to church. but my priest said that gods church is not in a building made of brick but it is in the hearts of the believers.

and about gay marriages. marriage in sum countries existed before christianity. so thats y i believe gays should be able to be married. Not religiously but legally.



[This message has been edited by Bruce4444 (edited 04-14-2006).]

An omnibenevolent being can never waver His open arms even for a single second. There can never be a moment of doubt where he questions whether to accept His child or not. Omnibenevloence demands that He loves all of His children. The message of your Christ God was a simple one: Love lives God gave to you all, love the Earth God gave to you all and love the Father, Son and Ghost as your god and savior. The second you start qualifying His love, it is no longer unending. Christ did not preach amongst the pure of heart. He preached to the poor, the hedonists and the diseased.

I have seen something startling recently. Jesus loves. Believers hate. Jesus still loves the believers. The believers will always hate.

quote:Originally posted by Gorloche:



I have seen something startling recently. Jesus loves. Believers hate. Jesus still loves the believers. The believers will always hate.

This is not even close to being true on the part of the believers. Love is the fullfillment of the law. A believer by proxy - loves. Despite the fact that love is not as much a requirement of salvation but the eventual condition created from salvation through faith. Nobody here has mastered what it means to be love and be void of hate.

It is the faithless who lack the love for thy neighbor. This includes those who claim to be a Christian in word alone.

Love is the fruit of a redeemed soul. I'm still learning what this actual translates to in reality. I mean how to apply it practically in life. It's not easy to love when we are surrounded by so much hate especially when that is all one has been all their life.

Those who don't believe are by far not void of hate - look a bit more closely at what and how people say things here.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

I'm pretty sure all you have to do is believe.

John 3:16

If the bible only consisted of John 3:16 I would agree and change my ways..however, the bible goes into much more detail of the conditions of salvation in other books and verses then the gospel of John. ~ In love

James 2:14-18

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

That pretty much shows that faith alone doesn't cut it.

I knew there was a reason I wasn't christian....

You preach to me of love and understand nothing. You preach to me of hate and understand nothing. I look around and I love. Even those worthy of hate do I love. I love them because I understand that they live ,and to live is to be subject to certain feelings.

You say "Love all" ,yet then say "Hate gays"

You say "Have not Pride" ,and then place yourself above others.

You say "God is our creator and Judge". and yet say ," I judge you thus"

Who are you to talk to me of love? One who loves all because it lives!

Who are you to talk to me of pride? On who has Pride of love and life!

Who are you to judge? God alone is the judge of my life!

You presume to much .

You preach false words.

Your actions are empty.

And thus will you be Judged by God.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

James 2:14-18

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

That pretty much shows that faith alone doesn't cut it.

I like this quote .... I like it alot....

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

If the bible only consisted of John 3:16 I would agree and change my ways..however, the bible goes into much more detail of the conditions of salvation in other books and verses then the gospel of John. ~ In love

Are you saying John is wrong? John doesn't list any other conditions does he?

Christians' wish for sinners to die is solely out of love for the criminal. See, they want the sinner to get to Heaven faster so he can come face to face with the Almighty Love of God before God sends him to Hell.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I'll try to put it in perspective. If your parents give you a curfew of 10pm and you keep coming home at 11pm. They will eventually punish you for it. Just by you saying I'm sorry I will stop doing it isn't enough on it's own. Of course you have to start obeying their rules.



Or you could kill the both of them with an ax one dark, rainy night, dump their bodies into the nearest river, and go greet the cops with a smile on your face knowing that Hell awaits. Yeah, baby.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I rock.

Your analogy sucks.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

You are correct on all accounts but one. By the act and passions of homosexuality alone shows the inability to follow the laws of God.

Marriage is a Christine ritual done before the eyes of God to swear and oath of partnership through lifes hardships and good times until the very last breath.

It is offensive to Christines that the homosexual can demand the ability to make the same oath because they are doing an end run around the commandments of God and forcing their way into a place of sancturary reserved by God for a man and a woman.

If you were to call it something other then marriage - for example a civil agreement or something then there is no issue. But the unholy act of gay marriage should not be compared in the same light as those who believe they are getting married to please God.

Understand?

Now if you said gays should be allowed the sancturary of a legal contract between each other by the government then that is a different thing.

However, I feel this thread is going to go in the wrong direction.



Ok, I have no qualms with the position that gays deserve all civil benefits associated with any marriage and the government cannot force priests etc. to marry gays.

However, Marriage is not soley a christian institution.

I believe one of the earliest forms of marriage was in ancient egypt. About 3200 years before christianity.

What's next? are you going to claim christianity has the sole claim to funerals and non-christian funerals should be called a "civil memorial" as to not associate the sanctity of christianity with the filth of the unbelievers?



[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 04-14-2006).]

There is nothing original about christianity. Every single part of the jesus myth is quite old. I believe there were at least 3 cultures immediately before christ that had stories of the son of god coming down from heaven and being crucified for our sins.

The more you know about history, the more it rings true: It repeats itself, over and over and over. I had heard this saying before, but as I learned more and more history, I was quite amazed and interested that it did in fact repeat itself over and over.

Humans are humans. We bleed the same blood. Over these years our environment has changed, but really, our nature has not. The GRIN technologies of the future may change that, but I digress.

The point is, christianity is not very special of a religion. There are just tons of people who follow it. You may say that is proof of its truthiness, but christians will also make claims about how the majority is often wrong and so on.

From salvation, to heaven, to jesus being crucified, it all just repeats the common themes of the past.

Gay bigotry is just repeating african bigotry, there are no differences except that now, more people are starting to realize this and trying to end bigotry.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

You are correct on all accounts but one. By the act and passions of homosexuality alone shows the inability to follow the laws of God.

Marriage is a Christine ritual done before the eyes of God to swear and oath of partnership through lifes hardships and good times until the very last breath.

It is offensive to Christines that the homosexual can demand the ability to make the same oath because they are doing an end run around the commandments of God and forcing their way into a place of sancturary reserved by God for a man and a woman.

If you were to call it something other then marriage - for example a civil agreement or something then there is no issue. But the unholy act of gay marriage should not be compared in the same light as those who believe they are getting married to please God.

Understand?

Now if you said gays should be allowed the sancturary of a legal contract between each other by the government then that is a different thing.

However, I feel this thread is going to go in the wrong direction.

Marriage isn't a christian ritual,you make it sound as if it is strictly for you.It isn't,you pig headed Fundie nutcase.

And Marriage between homos is offensive to christians?What about tolerance and love and all that bullswhit you preach?It isn't offensive to you,it's offensive to your god.

I'm all for gay marriage.gender shouldn't be a barrier for love,and they should be able to enjoy the same things we do.

On a brighter note:Church attendances are down in recent decades,and less people are following your silly silly ways.

Maybe soon we will be closer to finding true peace-based equilibrium,instead of fear and guilt based control.

When I was a Christian, my first falling out didn't take me away from God but brought me closer to Him. I noticed the people in my church looking with disdain on sinners. I noticed how they spoke with venom when talking about the evil world. I noticed... it was hate. And I've seen that forever in religions all around the world. Like Jesuit said, say you love and then tell us to hate. I found that once I freed myself from the bondage of the church, I could become closer to God. There were no other people that my name could be attached to. My relationship with God was personal and not filtered through the mouth of man placing himself on a pulpit because he is more qualified to talk about God than the rest of the believers.

Later, I lost my faith compeltely, but I've enver forgotten that first step. The bondage of religion does not come from God. It does not come from a book. It comes from man. And I love mankind and my love for mankind is never-ending; I want what is best for the world. If religion can take away our hate, I will support it fully.

I believe that marriage is for those who seek it. like i said marriage existed way before christianity. same with homosexuality. acient japanese and romans and greeks practiced this form of love making. so if people still believe its okay to be gay then i support them. i mean how would u feel if some other profit comes and tells u that christianity is a sin after so many years of practice and then people hate u for being a christian. id be pissed. that is why we cannot judge and take away gay rights. it was here first before christianity.

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

Are you saying John is wrong? John doesn't list any other conditions does he?

No, I am not saying that John is wrong. I am saying that it is an incomplete translation. There is more to the teaching then what you presented. I think someone posted after yours about other conditions placed on the condition of salvation that go beyond faith alone.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:



Ok, I have no qualms with the position that gays deserve all civil benefits associated with any marriage and the government cannot force priests etc. to marry gays.

However, Marriage is not soley a christian institution.

I believe one of the earliest forms of marriage was in ancient egypt. About 3200 years before christianity.

What's next? are you going to claim christianity has the sole claim to funerals and non-christian funerals should be called a "civil memorial" as to not associate the sanctity of christianity with the filth of the unbelievers?



In these times it is a majority opinion that it was a Christian observance in this country (US) This is the only history I'm concerned with on this matter.

As for funerals - the teaching is "let the dead bury the dead and follow me." Said Jesus. I would never proclaim dominion on such an event nor would I support someone who would.

Back to the topic of weddings -

Just until recently the views on marriage is going through this current battle as you know. In tomorrows tomorrow you will have what you want I'm certain. No Christian will be able to stop what it is you demand.

In fact the pasification of the church and how it is marginalized in society today show that we are going to face a new way very soon. I hope that when you get a full dose of "humanism" you will cry for these days of freedom and personal restraint to return.

I'm sure this arguement is lost on eveyone but, gay weddings are just another distraction my friends...there is something that is happening behind it's smoke screen that is going to hit us like a ton of bricks very soon. THe motto will soon be - CIVIL RIGHTS FOR ALL - EXCEPT FOR DISSENTERS!!

Do you think when the Christian church is slain there will be an outpouring of free love and peace? Be certain that once the salt is removed from the meat, the meat will rot.

quote:Originally posted by midgeymonkey2:

Marriage isn't a christian ritual,you make it sound as if it is strictly for you.It isn't,you pig headed Fundie nutcase.



I stick by my words. As pig headed as it sounds - they are true. Too bad society has walked away from this teaching. I'm certain that the divorce rates and single mothers would be much lower. In fact if we held strongly to traditional marriage beliefs instead of living in rebellion to our parents, a lot of problems would be solved. But, maybe you are too pig headed to see this fact of life.

quote:

And Marriage between homos is offensive to christians?What about tolerance and love and all that bullswhit you preach?

It isn't offensive to you,it's offensive to your god.

I've never preached about tolerance...that is a "new age" politically correct term. Your view of tolerence and mine are not the same but opposite. We are taught to love our enemies under all what it means to love. You are taught to hate anybody that opposes the "view" of the new world order.

I personally could hardly care less about gay marriage. It just that it is being forced on us that I don't like it. Just as much as you don't like living among the christian ways I'm certain.

quote:

I'm all for gay marriage.gender shouldn't be a barrier for love,and they should be able to enjoy the same things we do.

I'm certain that you have thought this all the way through and have considered where it will lead to.

I mean if homosexual marriage should be ok then a person can marry a donkey with no problems right? I mean the only requirement is love. A man or woman can love a donkey can't they?

Where does it end?

The bottom line is it is all nothing more then a mockery of Christian marriage. That is where it is offensive.

If you don't see it then you certainly do not carry an ounce of empathy for your fellow man. I mean all for the gays but damn anybody else that behavior may offend.

quote:

On a brighter note:Church attendances are down in recent decades,and less people are following your silly silly ways.

Just a sign of the times my friend..that's all. We all have the same choice to make. Which is, follow the doctrine of man or follow the doctrine of God. It's no secret that it's much easier to follow the doctrine of man.

quote:

Maybe soon we will be closer to finding true peace-based equilibrium,instead of fear and guilt based control.



Obviously from your previous sentence this isnt true. If we are lead by fear and guilt based control - control being the operative word here - then there would be more people filling the pews and you would have the foot of a God fearing preacher over your neck forcing you to bow. This is and never has been the ways of Christianity. But, be certain when humanism is ushered in you will have the jack boot of some government enforcer kicking you at every disobediant turn. There is a great deal of historical evidence of this fact.

With the void of christian doctrine being created, don't go head long into believing that what will replace it will be better. In fact it could be much worse.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-16-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Gorloche:

When I was a Christian, my first falling out didn't take me away from God but brought me closer to Him. I noticed the people in my church looking with disdain on sinners. I noticed how they spoke with venom when talking about the evil world. I noticed... it was hate. And I've seen that forever in religions all around the world. Like Jesuit said, say you love and then tell us to hate. I found that once I freed myself from the bondage of the church, I could become closer to God. There were no other people that my name could be attached to. My relationship with God was personal and not filtered through the mouth of man placing himself on a pulpit because he is more qualified to talk about God than the rest of the believers.

Later, I lost my faith compeltely, but I've enver forgotten that first step. The bondage of religion does not come from God. It does not come from a book. It comes from man. And I love mankind and my love for mankind is never-ending; I want what is best for the world. If religion can take away our hate, I will support it fully.

I've been to several church gatherings in my life and not once have I seen the attitude you present here. I've always seen open doors and open arms even before I understood any of it. It was alarming and very intimidating but never once in my rebellion did I think a christian hated me for my ways. In fact it was "my ways" which they did not accept and for good reason. I was as wayward as we come but they showed kindness and patience with me. I had to give up the "wayward" lawless lifestyle because the path to God requires it.

You are confusing the person and the sin where we know now they both can be seperated and forgiven. What you see as "hate" is someone trying to tell you about a better way. Of course you can come up with all kinds of stories that contradict this but, I can tell many more that prove it.

God does not exist. Solves all problems.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I've been to several church gatherings in my life and not once have I seen the attitude you present here. I've always seen open doors and open arms even before I understood any of it. It was alarming and very intimidating but never once in my rebellion did I think a christian hated me for my ways. In fact it was "my ways" which they did not accept and for good reason. I was as wayward as we come but they showed kindness and patience with me. I had to give up the "wayward" lawless lifestyle because the path to God requires it.

You are confusing the person and the sin where we know now they both can be seperated and forgiven. What you see as "hate" is someone trying to tell you about a better way. Of course you can come up with all kinds of stories that contradict this but, I can tell many more that prove it.



Great ,lets tell some fucking stories kids, that proves just how lovely all this shit is .

I know ,one day god anhilated a place cause some guy thought to get off but putting his penis in someone?

Or another ,God ,a lovely guy ,sent his only son down to earth for the sole purpose of dying. Thats cool.

Wait ,God can perform miracles , he makes pictures of JESUS and MARY showup in pizzas and sandwiches!

Lets not worry about all the senseless deaths famines and natuaral disasters.

Your God is just as much the Despot as the government, and in many cases worse.

You are NOTHING ,get that into your head ,God may love you ,but he doesn't love you more than anyone else. You think god loves you more than a faggot? Wrong ,God loves you just like a faggot.

You think God made this shit for your enjoyment?

Wrong you conceited little shit ,God made the wordl for Everyone ,fags included.

God made the world. How dare you Judge his ability to create? How dare you say that something He has made os wrong? How dare you do these things and call your self a christian?

You're not serving God ,your serving the Church ,and the church is nothing more than a pawn for men.

You want to follow gods teachings? Turn away from those who would look down on you ,get your head out of the clouds and look straight. Consider the world and don't hide behind an obsoltee doctrine of a vegeneful God.



Have A Nice Day.

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:



Great ,lets tell some fucking stories kids, that proves just how lovely all this shit is .

I know ,one day god anhilated a place cause some guy thought to get off but putting his penis in someone?

Or another ,God ,a lovely guy ,sent his only son down to earth for the sole purpose of dying. Thats cool.

I don't know why I'm going to even try to defend against this but what the heck...why not. You have a very tainted and bitter view of it all. I know you have your reasons but the reality is something else. Do you want to know the reasons why these things had to happen? and why they are chronicled in the bible and not others? Or do you want to continue to look at the surface of things without going any deeper.

quote:

Wait ,God can perform miracles , he makes pictures of JESUS and MARY showup in pizzas and sandwiches!

Lets not worry about all the senseless deaths famines and natuaral disasters.

There is a great effort by missions to go out to these places and assist. THe images that show up are just stumbling blocks and have no significant spiritual purpose other then to do what it has done to you. It is a tool of the enemy of God to turn people away from it. There is not a bit of "truth" found in these things.

quote:

Your God is just as much the Despot as the government, and in many cases worse.

Sounds hopeless...so where do you turn?

quote:

You are NOTHING ,get that into your head ,God may love you ,but he doesn't love you more than anyone else. You think god loves you more than a faggot? Wrong ,God loves you just like a faggot.

You think God made this shit for your enjoyment?

Wrong you conceited little shit ,God made the wordl for Everyone ,fags included.

Why does it always come down to fags? Anyway, as for a conceited little sh** - I'm a 240 lb former US Marine war veteran and novice body builder. I've been half way around the world and back - twice. I've been through more crap in this life then I'm certain most could possible bare. From abandonment of my father, suicide of my mother, drug abuse to a wife with cancer which was diagnosed 6 days after my son was born less then a year ago but here I still stand.

If you think you still have a clue as to how to judge me or my beliefs then I don't think you have a single ounce of integrity in your body. I hang onto the word of God as the only place of sanctuary and hope left in this world. I hope you can understand a little more as to why I could never walk away from following God because it is that other life is the alternative.

quote:

God made the world. How dare you Judge his ability to create? How dare you say that something He has made os wrong? How dare you do these things and call your self a christian?

ok..what the heck are you talking about?

Anyway, he told us plainly that he made things destined for eternal damnation. We are all predestined and some will go into heaven and some will not. Only God knows...

I didn't make any of this up. Open the book and read for yourself.

quote:

You're not serving God ,your serving the Church ,and the church is nothing more than a pawn for men.



eh...not even close to being true...

quote:

You want to follow gods teachings? Turn away from those who would look down on you ,get your head out of the clouds and look straight. Consider the world and don't hide behind an obsoltee doctrine of a vegeneful God.



Have A Nice Day.

I don't follow a doctrine of a vengeful God and I hope with all that I write here will back that up. I can't follow the ways of the world either. I've been down that road and I know where it leads. I've found something that is much better in following Jesus to God.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



For example; why would I want to spend an eternity with somebody who hates me because of what I believe in and doesn't want to do anything other then destroy those things I hold sacred? I guess you would have to believe in an eternal life to answer that as well.

See, that's the view you have of people who don't hold your faith, and that's a serious problem.

We don't hate you. It has nothing to do with what you believe. Damn, why do so many christians think like this? We aren't bad people.

I understand now why it is so easy for you to just throw out the scientific evidence which has less contradictions in it then your bible (by a ton). It's because you think of us as a cult or religion (basically same thing) of people who are just out to get you, destroy your beliefs, and hate you.

For christsake, I'm after truth here. Don't be so sensitive. We don't have anything against you, we are just trying to objectively discern truth and reality and morality and so on. I understand your beliefs are dear to you, but in order to learn we have to hold everything up to the light, put it under the microscope.

We once thought the world was flat and then the sun revolved around the earth; it was just a given. The church saw Galileo as an evil bastard for pointing out truth, simply because the truth disagreed with their beliefs and they didn't want to change.

My point is, atheism and agnosticism are not religions. We search for truth, whereever it leads. Atheism did not form as a group to hate religious people or because we hate them. It is all about truth, and finding it.

Sheeeeeesh.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



I'm certain that you have thought this all the way through and have considered where it will lead to.

I mean if homosexual marriage should be ok then a person can marry a donkey with no problems right? I mean the only requirement is love. A man or woman can love a donkey can't they?

Where does it end?

...Wow.

I mean...Wow.

Yes, well, if we give equal rights to blacks, whats next, equal rights for women? Heheheh. I mean, come on, we can't let them vote, what's next, children? Apes? Well, I guess black people are apes ahahahaha.

:Sarcasm: (in case you are a literalist)

In case you didn't catch it, that was a very demeaning comment to homosexuals. Coming from you, I am very surprised. Watch your mouth.

It is undeniably hard for people to change in their ways. Bigotry dies hard. But please, comparing them to donkeys is just...

...well, here's a quick story.

An english teacher at my school once posted an article on his (something, school paper, bulletin board, can't remember?) that was about how much money different people make. One of the people was a teacher from the school who happened to be black. When he posted it, he wanted to highlight and get people to notice that she was in the article, so he cut out her picture and moved it up top next to the first picture so you could see it easier.

Through unintentional terrible luck, this happened to be next to a picture of King Kong. The black female teacher was incredibly upset for like no reason because she thought it was comparing blacks to apes. I mean, complete overreaction. She went on paid leave to seek psychiatric therapy, it was just ridiculous. The teacher was suspended for a few days and then all the teachers had to go to a half day workshop on teacher sensitivity.

Just felt like saying that. Anyway.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



In these times it is a majority opinion that it was a Christian observance in this country (US) This is the only history I'm concerned with on this matter.



We aren't concerned with history, we are concerned with law. Even so, you religion has no bearing whatsoever to the country. I hope you are aware that you just said, "The majority says this so damn the minority (literally)."

Think before you speak.

You don't rule the world, and neither does your religion. It never will.

Honestly, I'm glad christianity saved you from your bad life, but you are clearly a pretty smart guy. Don't you think it's time to think for yourself and figure out true, modern, loving morality instead of constantly defending positions your religion is stuck into?



[This message has been edited by IanBoyd3 (edited 04-19-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

See, that's the view you have of people who don't hold your faith, and that's a serious problem.

I agree, but, it's not exactly how I see things. There was a time I didn't believe it either. Now that I understand it and know how it benefits us, I have to try and tell others about it. The REAL God who gives us REAL life is good. What else can I say?

quote:

We don't hate you. It has nothing to do with what you believe. Damn, why do so many christians think like this? We aren't bad people.

I don't know who you are an advocate for but when you say "we" I'm assuming you are speaking for all who don't believe. If this is the case then I see you are not being honest. There is plenty of hate directed at those of us who believe. Not just on these forums but in every step we take in life. You complain about civil rights and fairness and so on but, who is the first one people gather around to bully and ridicule? That's right the little sissy boy Christian. I used to lead the pack of bullies to them so you can't tell me it isn't true.

quote:

I understand now why it is so easy for you to just throw out the scientific evidence which has less contradictions in it then your bible (by a ton).

You would have to be bit more objective to see that isn't true. I've seen many "potential" contradictions in the bible but have learned how to understand what it really means. The bible is consistent from begining to end. You will have a hard time understanding what happens in 1Peter if you don't know Exodus and you won't get any of it if you can't accept there is a God.

quote:

It's because you think of us as a cult or religion (basically same thing) of people who are just out to get you, destroy your beliefs, and hate you.

I can only see what I see. However, when people "seek answers" by using derogatory, demeaning and condesending statments - it is hardly an attempt to gain knowledge. For example- I mentioned something about how someone wants smash the skulls of Christians. And then someone comes back and says it's just a joke. Come on...

quote:

For christsake, I'm after truth here. Don't be so sensitive. We don't have anything against you, we are just trying to objectively discern truth and reality and morality and so on.

Do you really mean discern it or establish it?

quote:

I understand your beliefs are dear to you, but in order to learn we have to hold everything up to the light, put it under the microscope.

If you knew me you would know I am probably the most stubborn person you can come across. In fact you can tell by my persistence with my beliefs here. When I say I am a changed person that just means the direction of my life and my thoughts and my deeds have changed. I'm still the same old stubborn me - it's the purpose of my stance that has changed. I have put it under the microscope. This is called "counting the costs"

quote:

We once thought the world was flat and then the sun revolved around the earth; it was just a given. The church saw Galileo as an evil bastard for pointing out truth, simply because the truth disagreed with their beliefs and they didn't want to change.

I understand the logic but this is bit different then understanding the world around us but more so about the spirit that is in us.

quote:

My point is, atheism and agnosticism are not religions. We search for truth, whereever it leads. Atheism did not form as a group to hate religious people or because we hate them. It is all about truth, and finding it.

Sheeeeeesh.

I understand - but the condition of atheism or agnosticism is nothing new. It has been around since the very begining and long before Christianity.

Having faith in God is not an easy thing to come by. I wish I had the time to tell you all of my story but the bottom line is, faith did not come easy. Like I said, I am a very stubborn person. All I know is I was once in the camp of the athiest but I found my way.

I'm just here trying to explain the unknown God and give a fair representation. There is nothing but misconceptions and false ideas being thrown around here that requires a true response. I don't intend to "convert" anybody but just help understand the condition of being "born again".

If somebody is moved by it then amen! If not, I've served my purpose anyways. Planting seeds among the thorns - is there fertile ground for God among us here?



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-20-2006).]

Continueing my response...sorry it's a long - thanks for taking the time to read it though.. quote:

...Wow.

I mean...Wow.

Yes, well, if we give equal rights to blacks, whats next, equal rights for women?



This isn't even close to being an honest comparison. Voting rights and sexual "preference" are seperate things. Though you try to say ones sexual preference should be a protected civil right and embraced socially - where does it end? Do you also want to force legalizing pedophiles on us next? After all, it's just a sexual preference and is completly healthy and just fine for the children. Right?

quote:

Heheheh. I mean, come on, we can't let them vote, what's next, children? Apes? Well, I guess black people are apes ahahahaha.

:Sarcasm: (in case you are a literalist)

Not really..I get it.

quote:

In case you didn't catch it, that was a very demeaning comment to homosexuals.

Coming from you, I am very surprised. Watch your mouth.



Maybe so, but I stand firm...it is the degradation of the natural way of procreation. If you disagree then what else can I say? You have been duped... "The alternative" way of living is going in the wrong direction. What I'm saying is there is a slippery slope we start walking on when we start accepting "alternative" sexual behavior. Where does it end?

The arguement is basically we should just let love fly freely.... do it in the road right? I have to say there are consequences beyond our comprehension that this will lead to.



quote:

It is undeniably hard for people to change in their ways. Bigotry dies hard. But please, comparing them to donkeys is just...



You completly missed the point. I wasn't comparing homosexuals to donkeys...I was referencing sexual preference - some people actualy like to and have sex with donkeys...should it be ok to?

quote:



...well, here's a quick story.

An english teacher at my school once posted an article on his (something, school paper, bulletin board, can't remember?) that was about how much money different people make. One of the people was a teacher from the school who happened to be black. When he posted it, he wanted to highlight and get people to notice that she was in the article, so he cut out her picture and moved it up top next to the first picture so you could see it easier.

Through unintentional terrible luck, this happened to be next to a picture of King Kong. The black female teacher was incredibly upset for like no reason because she thought it was comparing blacks to apes. I mean, complete overreaction. She went on paid leave to seek psychiatric therapy, it was just ridiculous. The teacher was suspended for a few days and then all the teachers had to go to a half day workshop on teacher sensitivity.

Just felt like saying that. Anyway.

sorry I missed the point??

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-20-2006).]

and on, and on, and on it goes...

quote:

We aren't concerned with history, we are concerned with law.

the interpretation of law is dependent on a morale standard that it is based on. It is the historical precedence that required the law to be created to begin with. If we throw out history we have no reference as to how this may play out in the future. It would be foolish not to take a history lesson on living opposed to God's laws.

quote:

Even so, you religion has no bearing whatsoever to the country.

I have always said that "politics is nothing more then the creation of laws based on a morale belief" You can quote me on that..it means whatever morale foundation you have - there will be the ground the civil laws grow out of.

quote:

I hope you are aware that you just said, "The majority says this so damn the minority (literally)."

Well thanks to the government for equal opportunity and so on...how else can the minority hijack a country and demand adherence to their views. Ever see the movie the bugs life?

quote:

Think before you speak.

You don't rule the world, and neither does your religion. It never will.

It has never been here to rule the world..it's just to eventually find those who seek God and take them from it. If a majority of people think this way then the answer is to "vote with your feet."

quote:

Honestly, I'm glad christianity saved you from your bad life, but you are clearly a pretty smart guy. Don't you think it's time to think for yourself and figure out true, modern, loving morality instead of constantly defending positions your religion is stuck into?

This is the scariest thing I've ever read. Why would I continue to follow the trends of the world which I have have already said where it lead me to. What a hopless life...don't forget to keep in mind that I have lived this way and lived to see the outcome of that hopeless living.

The laws are handed down for guidance not governance. They are here to show us the road to God and with it is the "morality" required to stay on the straight and narrow path to Him. To start blazing a new path will certainly send me back to that dark pit of a desperate life I once had. No thanks I have found what is better ~

quote:Originally posted by Bruce4444:

k people i got sum thing on my mind. why do so many christians in the south act like sinning should be punishable by death. eg. being gay, unwedded sex, and so on.

Wishing them to die is completely contrary to Christian doctrine, so you shouldn't be asking this question, if that is actually happening.

quote:yes these are sins but why do we hate sinners so much.

Rebuking the sin doesn't necessarily equate to hating the sinner.

It can, but it shouldn't.

quote:isnt gods way the way of peace and love.

That is the way of Jesus, who is but one part of God.

He is also a God of wrath, judgment, and justice.

Read the Old Testament, and tell me how much peace and love you see of God in there...

quote:then why do we put up ads like god laughs when fags die.

What kind of Christians are doing this ? Link ?

quote:i mean common who are these people to say wut god is thinking.

If a Christian sees someone engaging in ANY sin, they are commanded by God to rebuke the sin, offer counsel to the sinner, and pray for them.

It is very clear what God thinks about sin...have you read the Bible all the way through yet ? If not, I recommend it. It's all in there.

quote:its just like in the past when the kings said that only they could talk to god. u know thats bullshit.

Kinda like...the Vicar of Christ ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:and how people are so judgemental about unwedded sex. didnt jesus forgive a whore and told her that god still loves her.

He forgave her, which means he wiped away her sin.

He then proceeded to instruct her, "Go, and sin NO MORE."

As a Christian, you are supposed to at least TRY not to sin. You will not always be successful, but it's the effort that counts in God's eyes.

If you act like pagans, what makes you any different than them ?

How can you claim that God has changed your life as a result of changing the condition of your heart, if there is no discernable difference in your behavior ?

quote:so if we are trying to be closer to god then why do we hate instead of love.

That's humanity for ya.

A lot of Christians could do with a little more love...I'm one of them. I'll be the first to admit that sin make me more angry, than anything else, but God is working on this part of me, and I am in prayer about it everyday.

I can't explain why it makes me angry, it just does. This anger is about the SIN, and the orgination of it (Satan), not the sinner.

I think you need to understand something, though: loving doesn't equate to tolerance of sin.

God LOVES His creation, else He wouldn't have sent Jesus to die for our sins, giving us an even better opportunity to gain entrance into Heaven, but even as He loves, He judges.

I don't mean "judge" as in "condemn". I mean "judge" as in "hold accountable".

I personally wouldn't trust a God that said it was ok to act however you want. Where's the stability in that ?

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

This isn't even close to being an honest comparison. Voting rights and sexual "preference" are seperate things. Though you try to say ones sexual preference should be a protected civil right and embraced socially - where does it end? Do you also want to force legalizing pedophiles on us next? After all, it's just a sexual preference and is completly healthy and just fine for the children. Right?

Are you being stupid on purpose here? You are 100% able to grasp that the civil rights requested fairly by the homosexual community concern CONSENTING ADULTS. Pedophilia and zoophilia have nothing to do with consenting adults, so please take your huge deliberate strawman, along with the sarcasm, and burn it. The analogy with voting rights is correct because we are talking about social minorities that deserve the same rights as everyone else.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Continueing my response...sorry it's a long - thanks for taking the time to read it though.. Maybe so, but I stand firm...it is the degradation of the natural way of procreation. If you disagree then what else can I say? You have been duped... "The alternative" way of living is going in the wrong direction. What I'm saying is there is a slippery slope we start walking on when we start accepting "alternative" sexual behavior. Where does it end?

The arguement is basically we should just let love fly freely.... do it in the road right? I have to say there are consequences beyond our comprehension that this will lead to.

And I have to say BS. The "natural way of procreation"...how do you explain homosexuality in animals? It has been observed from fishes to apes. You don't know what is natural, because you don't care what happens in nature. If you did you wouldn't base your knowledge on what is natural on the bible.

And please, since you mention it, you must have SOME idea about what those consequenses "beyond our comprehension" will be. I think this whole topic is what is beyond your comprehension.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



You completly missed the point. I wasn't comparing homosexuals to donkeys...I was referencing sexual preference - some people actualy like to and have sex with donkeys...should it be ok to?

Yes, you weren't comparing homosexuals to donkeys, just homosexuality to zoophilia which is the same. I explained above why you are wrong, you CAN understand it so you'd better give some actual reasons for your position.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



This is the scariest thing I've ever read. Why would I continue to follow the trends of the world which I have have already said where it lead me to. What a hopless life...don't forget to keep in mind that I have lived this way and lived to see the outcome of that hopeless living.

The laws are handed down for guidance not governance. They are here to show us the road to God and with it is the "morality" required to stay on the straight and narrow path to Him. To start blazing a new path will certainly send me back to that dark pit of a desperate life I once had. No thanks I have found what is better ~

I don't know your story, but I am always amazed that those who profess "strong faith" have come there from some previous condition of misery. It's a most informative pattern. It's no wonder you are so terrified to contemplate starting a "new path". Guess what though...you are always on a path of your own making. If your life is good now, you made it happen and you can do it even without checking every move or opinion with the bible. The thing is, you have no right to create misery for others just because you attribute your escape from misery to a book. There are people out there who are good, have lived well and haven't been to any trouble without trusting the bible. Don't assume you are better than them by trying to correct them when their life has been better than yours.

quote:

Are you being stupid on purpose here? You are 100% able to grasp that the civil rights requested fairly by the homosexual community concern CONSENTING ADULTS.

Ok..I'm willing to try and grasp the reality you are presenting - first it should be allowed because it's "love" and it is between "consenting adults" What other attributes will need to be added to show the alternate ways to a God ordained marriage between a man and a woman?

quote:

Pedophilia and zoophilia have nothing to do with consenting adults, so please take your huge deliberate strawman, along with the sarcasm, and burn it. The analogy with voting rights is correct because we are talking about social minorities that deserve the same rights as everyone else.

There are to many arguements I can make against this so I'll just try to be brief.

The social minority has been put to the vote and time and time again it has been voted down. Now what?

quote:

And I have to say BS. The "natural way of procreation"...how do you explain homosexuality in animals?

I would say sexual confusion - I mean a dog will even try to hump your leg - what does that prove? We should also copy the behavior? Anyway, how do you explain procreation in homosexual animals is what I would like to know?

quote:

It has been observed from fishes to apes. You don't know what is natural, because you don't care what happens in nature. If you did you wouldn't base your knowledge on what is natural on the bible.

Look, I don't live in a vacuum. I've been around - My views on life extend way beyond the boundries of the words in the bible. HOwever, I'm sure if God said it's a sexual "free for all" down here then I would probably have a different view. However, I have seen the consequence of a loose lifestyle. Aborted babies, sexual disease, rage, abuse, depression, the list goes on. Choose one partner who believes the same as you, commit to them, lead a clean monogomous lifesyle and you will greatly reduce all those things. There is wisdom in this if you care to seek it.

quote:

And please, since you mention it, you must have SOME idea about what those consequenses "beyond our comprehension" will be. I think this whole topic is what is beyond your comprehension.

Let wisdom prevail then. She can be tough on us if crossed - that's for sure. If you want to follow them their views and ideals then dont' let my views stop you.

All I can say is be sure to study the outcome very carefully of both sides instead of fosusing on the passion of the moment. Survival in this life requires us to understand the eventual consequence and outcome of our decisions. Seeing this then making the right choice will often save us from a very rough life.

quote:

Yes, you weren't comparing homosexuals to donkeys, just homosexuality to zoophilia which is the same. I explained above why you are wrong, you CAN understand it so you'd better give some actual reasons for your position.

Ok then, how about poligamy - should that be ok to? Not letting a man marry 10 wives would be against their civil rights after all. They have all the elements you describe as being good. Love for another, check, consenting adults, check (in most cases) there is no beast sex involved.

How about, marriage between a brother and a sister? Lets see, love is involved, check, consentual relationship, check, no animals...ok to marry?

Now what?

quote:

I don't know your story, but I am always amazed that those who profess "strong faith" have come there from some previous condition of misery.

I take what you say very seriously because I can't count the many haughty, unhappy faces I see everywhere I go. I see many people trapped by the routines of their day, letting the patterns define who they are.

It is not often I see in a person freedom of peace, joy, contentment and happiness. I see the slavery of the system and the ever churning machine of life tearing out the very soul and lifeforce of thousands of people everywhere I go. (I travel a great deal for a living)

The eventual outcome of living without God is an emotional roller coaster of unquenchable spiritual thirst and unpacified despair. I have seen and lived on both sides.

I want to tell you about a never ending flow of life and freedom. A satisfaction for the soul that will be fed when it hungers and given drink when it is thirsty. The place of being without the burdons of the wrongs we have done in life is a freedom I want everyone to know. The removal of sin is the dawn of a lite and clear conscience.

This I am telling you from experience and you have to understand that if a man owes a hundred dollars in debt and another owes a million, if both debts are canceled, who will feel the most relief?

So I tell you I had much debt to pay to God by my own transgression and I can tell you the relief on my soul when He forgave it and took it away.

This is a thing that no mind can conjur no matter how hard we try - our past will always seem to come back to haunt us and strike at our conscience once again. There is a place out from under it ~

quote:

It's a most informative pattern. It's no wonder you are so terrified to contemplate starting a "new path". Guess what though...you are always on a path of your own making. If your life is good now, you made it happen and you can do it even without checking every move or opinion with the bible.

I understand your desire to "free me from my chains" but, I would rather be a slave to Christ then a slave to the world. The outcome of beating a temptation is far more beneficial then the guilt of falling into it.

It's simple, I'm sure you have experienced it. You have a piece of cake in front of you- You tell yourself not to eat it - but your body grabs it and gobbles it down as if you have no control over yourself. Imagine the feeling of conquest if you just kept yourself under control.

quote:

The thing is, you have no right to create misery for others just because you attribute your escape from misery to a book.

I don't think I am forcing my views on anybody here but just voicing an opinion. I don't attribute my "escape" to what I read in a book. My life changed by a miracle - it is the sign of Jonah. It is not my imagination that keeps me from going back to that old life. There is a real reason and real experiences that lead me to faith. It wasn't until after I believed God loves me that I read the bible. It just confirmed what is happening to me.

quote:

There are people out there who are good, have lived well and haven't been to any trouble without trusting the bible.

Without a doubt I agree stronly with you -

quote:

Don't assume you are better than them by trying to correct them when their life has been better than yours

Your making an assumption that I do think of myself better then anybody else. I'm just confident on my small piece of carpet I stand on in this world. If I found a paradise it would be wrong of me to hide it from you. So, I'm here to tell you about it. That's what kind of loving friend I am.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-21-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

James 2:14-18

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

That pretty much shows that faith alone doesn't cut it.

This is a pretty good time to point out that without correct context, quotes are meaningless.

"Judas went and hung himself."

"Go thou and do ye likewise"

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

This is a pretty good time to point out that without correct context, quotes are meaningless.

"Judas went and hung himself."

"Go thou and do ye likewise"

I agree, however, he was responding to a previous post to his. Someone quoted a passage and said all it takes is to believe. He responded with this to challenge the notion. It was a side bar event in this issue.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

Ok..I'm willing to try and grasp the reality you are presenting - first it should be allowed because it's "love" and it is between "consenting adults" What other attributes will need to be added to show the alternate ways to a God ordained marriage between a man and a woman?

You need to stop calling "God ordained" the laws of ignorant, ancient people. Your view of a fixed, unchangeable course of behaviour for humans has nothing to do with reality.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

There are to many arguements I can make against this so I'll just try to be brief.

The social minority has been put to the vote and time and time again it has been voted down. Now what?

I'm not sure what you are saying here. What does the voting rights analogy have to do with this? Your right to vote is one thing, whether voting applies in making a decision to give rights to a social minority is another.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



I would say sexual confusion - I mean a dog will even try to hump your leg - what does that prove? We should also copy the behavior? Anyway, how do you explain procreation in homosexual animals is what I would like to know?

Homosexuality IS sexual confusion, except that it is permanent and consistent. It's not about confusing males and females, it's about what one is attracted to.

Procreation is not affected in the least. Homosexuality exists since always, yet here we are with overpopulation problems.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Look, I don't live in a vacuum. I've been around - My views on life extend way beyond the boundries of the words in the bible. HOwever, I'm sure if God said it's a sexual "free for all" down here then I would probably have a different view. However, I have seen the consequence of a loose lifestyle. Aborted babies, sexual disease, rage, abuse, depression, the list goes on. Choose one partner who believes the same as you, commit to them, lead a clean monogomous lifesyle and you will greatly reduce all those things. There is wisdom in this if you care to seek it.

Once again, you base what is right and call it wisdom something that comes from a thousands years old book and personal experiences. Everything in your list above comes by the biggest percentage from your "clean monogamous lifestyle". The thing is, what works for you is not necessarily true for others. You have no evidence to call a lifestyle "loose" or that it even leads to those things. What "God" says is irrelevant to the reality of what a human being is. The fact that you align yourself with anything said by "God" shows that you do live in a vacuum.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Let wisdom prevail then. She can be tough on us if crossed - that's for sure. If you want to follow them their views and ideals then dont' let my views stop you.

All I can say is be sure to study the outcome very carefully of both sides instead of fosusing on the passion of the moment. Survival in this life requires us to understand the eventual consequence and outcome of our decisions. Seeing this then making the right choice will often save us from a very rough life.

I agree, but the sad thing is that you don't follow your own advice. You are evading my question at the same time. You have no clue what those terrible consequences are, yet you claim wisdom for your unbased theories? Wisdom means having all the data and making an informed decision. It has nothing to do with personal experiences, hunches or the writings of dead, ignorant people.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Ok then, how about poligamy - should that be ok to? Not letting a man marry 10 wives would be against their civil rights after all. They have all the elements you describe as being good. Love for another, check, consenting adults, check (in most cases) there is no beast sex involved.

How about, marriage between a brother and a sister? Lets see, love is involved, check, consentual relationship, check, no animals...ok to marry?

Now what?

Polygamy and incest, ok.

Not that this is an actual argument. You continue to bring up examples that are removed from your idealized perception of human relations as if that makes a point. The thing that matters is people being happy and the benefits to society, that's the only criteria we need to keep in mind. So, polygamy, yes, it actually is in effect in some places and if the consent of everyone involved is present I don't see anything wrong. There are legal complications but they are solvable.

Incest is different because disease comes from it. It is incredibly rare as well. Unless you expect crowds of siblings protesting for their right to get married right after homosexuals can, I don't see why mention it in this discussion.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



I take what you say very seriously because I can't count the many haughty, unhappy faces I see everywhere I go. I see many people trapped by the routines of their day, letting the patterns define who they are.

It is not often I see in a person freedom of peace, joy, contentment and happiness. I see the slavery of the system and the ever churning machine of life tearing out the very soul and lifeforce of thousands of people everywhere I go. (I travel a great deal for a living)

The eventual outcome of living without God is an emotional roller coaster of unquenchable spiritual thirst and unpacified despair. I have seen and lived on both sides.

I want to tell you about a never ending flow of life and freedom. A satisfaction for the soul that will be fed when it hungers and given drink when it is thirsty. The place of being without the burdons of the wrongs we have done in life is a freedom I want everyone to know. The removal of sin is the dawn of a lite and clear conscience.

This I am telling you from experience and you have to understand that if a man owes a hundred dollars in debt and another owes a million, if both debts are canceled, who will feel the most relief?

So I tell you I had much debt to pay to God by my own transgression and I can tell you the relief on my soul when He forgave it and took it away.

This is a thing that no mind can conjur no matter how hard we try - our past will always seem to come back to haunt us and strike at our conscience once again. There is a place out from under it ~

The only thing I read above is your habit of seeing good and attributing it to God, and seeing evil and attributing it to his absence. You mention your personal experiences, well there are countless people whose personal experiences disprove your conslusions. If you remove God from the equation, you will see that the only one who has removed the "debt" is yourself. There is no need for supernatural mumbo-jumbo to make yourself happy. A lot of people do it, and your suggestion that they are not really happy is insulting and ignorant.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



I understand your desire to "free me from my chains" but, I would rather be a slave to Christ then a slave to the world. The outcome of beating a temptation is far more beneficial then the guilt of falling into it.

It's simple, I'm sure you have experienced it. You have a piece of cake in front of you- You tell yourself not to eat it - but your body grabs it and gobbles it down as if you have no control over yourself. Imagine the feeling of conquest if you just kept yourself under control.

Well, it's time you gave yourself credit for your self-control. The feeling of conquest is your immediate, natural reward.

There's no need to be a slave of anyone. You have proved you can better your life. You may attribute it to God, but as the atheist sees it, you did it on your own. Would it be bad or any less rewarding to consider this? I think it can only make you stronger to be able to count on yourself.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



I don't think I am forcing my views on anybody here but just voicing an opinion. I don't attribute my "escape" to what I read in a book. My life changed by a miracle - it is the sign of Jonah. It is not my imagination that keeps me from going back to that old life. There is a real reason and real experiences that lead me to faith. It wasn't until after I believed God loves me that I read the bible. It just confirmed what is happening to me.

The pattern I mentioned before almost always includes a "miracle". I don't want to undermine your experiences but keep in mind that there are still unexplained phenomenon and that incredible luck is still natural. If you just replaced the thought "God loves me" with "Me and my life are important", wouldn't the effect be the same?

About you not forcing your views and voicing an opinion, there is really no difference in democratic society. If your opinion causes misery and finds itself in the majority, it is the same as forcing views. This is why I pursue the discussion. You are entitled to your opinion but if it is potentially harmful and dangerous to others, this needs to be addressed.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Your making an assumption that I do think of myself better then anybody else. I'm just confident on my small piece of carpet I stand on in this world. If I found a paradise it would be wrong of me to hide it from you. So, I'm here to tell you about it. That's what kind of loving friend I am.

As I said before, nothing works the same for everyone. There are many ways one can go about his life. If we all felt obliged to tell people the "good way" which is never exactly the same for everyone, you can imagine the level of disagreement and discord we would be in.

The attitude of a loving friend is accepting one as he is. If there are lessons to be learned from you, one will ask you or observe your life. Seeking people to tell them what's the correct way to live is condescending, patronizing, rude. But it becomes evil when you want to force your way on the whole society as if human beings are exact replicas of each other. They are not and you have to respect this.

quote:You need to stop calling "God ordained" the laws of ignorant, ancient people. Your view of a fixed, unchangeable course of behaviour for humans has nothing to do with reality.

So your answer is to forget about history and the wisdom of learning from it's folly just because it doesn't match your view of today's trends? Why do you want me to conform to your way of thinking? Aren't you preaching that we all have the right to believe and live however we want? Why do you then tell me I am wrong for my views? Isn't that hypocritical?

quote:I'm not sure what you are saying here. What does the voting rights analogy have to do with this? Your right to vote is one thing, whether voting applies in making a decision to give rights to a social minority is another.

I agree, we voted it on it, time and time again. It gets voted down nearly everywhere it shows up. People do not want this to happen. What else is there to say?

quote:

Homosexuality IS sexual confusion, except that it is permanent and consistent. It's not about confusing males and females, it's about what one is attracted to.

Procreation is not affected in the least. Homosexuality exists since always, yet here we are with overpopulation problems.

You missed my point - the question was in regards to procreation among homosexuals.

quote:

Once again, you base what is right and call it wisdom something that comes from a thousands years old book and personal experiences. Everything in your list above comes by the biggest percentage from your "clean monogamous lifestyle". The thing is, what works for you is not necessarily true for others. You have no evidence to call a lifestyle "loose" or that it even leads to those things. What "God" says is irrelevant to the reality of what a human being is. The fact that you align yourself with anything said by "God" shows that you do live in a vacuum.

Firstly, I have plenty of evidence to support a loose lifestyle often breeds those things. Secondly, I never said I wasn't narrowminded or bigoted in my views. Your challenge to my views shows that you are equally guilty of the same. You have your views that you stand by and I have mine. I'll accept that I'm wrong if I said your ideas are wrong. But, I never have.

quote: I agree, but the sad thing is that you don't follow your own advice. You are evading my question at the same time. You have no clue what those terrible consequences are, yet you claim wisdom for your unbased theories? Wisdom means having all the data and making an informed decision. It has nothing to do with personal experiences, hunches or the writings of dead, ignorant people.

I study my thoughts very carefully. I do hope to live by wisdom. However, I'm destined to fail like everyone else.

How can wisdom be void of personal experience? So only intelligent wise people are living? I don't get your view. The only wisdom you accept is the one that matches with how you see things. I guess that would help comfort me if I did the same. However, sometimes true wisdom is what knocks down our own perceptions and leads us ot a new understanding of truth.

quote:

Polygamy and incest, ok.

Not that this is an actual argument. You continue to bring up examples that are removed from your idealized perception of human relations as if that makes a point.

So margainalize it then? It's a real issue and you are not answering the question. Where does it end after homosexual marriage?

quote:

The thing that matters is people being happy and the benefits to society, that's the only criteria we need to keep in mind.

Since when in this "me" society we live in does anybody care anything about benefiting society or what people think about their happiness? I think you live in a vacuum because of your own fantastical utopian views where there is no bad thing anybody can do because everybody is happy without restraints!!

quote:

So, polygamy, yes, it actually is in effect in some places and if the consent of everyone involved is present I don't see anything wrong. There are legal complications but they are solvable.

Incest is different because disease comes from it. It is incredibly rare as well. Unless you expect crowds of siblings protesting for their right to get married right after homosexuals can, I don't see why mention it in this discussion.

It was projection - it was looking at the future - it was trying to apply wisdom like I was trying to say before....here..I'll quote it again since you missed it.. "All I can say is be sure to study the outcome very carefully of both sides instead of fosusing on the passion of the moment. Survival in this life requires us to understand the eventual consequence and outcome of our decisions. Seeing this then making the right choice will often save us from a very rough life."



quote:

The only thing I read above is your habit of seeing good and attributing it to God, and seeing evil and attributing it to his absence. You mention your personal experiences, well there are countless people whose personal experiences disprove your conslusions.



It can only be disproved over a lifetime as I'm talking about the big picture. Not happy this week or this month..but a steady lifetime of content living.

quote:

If you remove God from the equation, you will see that the only one who has removed the "debt" is yourself. There is no need for supernatural mumbo-jumbo to make yourself happy. A lot of people do it, and your suggestion that they are not really happy is insulting and ignorant.

Time will be the judge of my ignorance. Despite that, I know what I see.

quote:

Well, it's time you gave yourself credit for your self-control. The feeling of conquest is your immediate, natural reward.

There's no need to be a slave of anyone. You have proved you can better your life. You may attribute it to God, but as the atheist sees it, you did it on your own. Would it be bad or any less rewarding to consider this? I think it can only make you stronger to be able to count on yourself.

Why is it that nobody hears me when I say it is God who gave me strength to get out of that old way of living. Believe me when I say it takes the full force of God to pursuade one from their worldy views. I count on God to get me through this life.

My wife has cancer and she found out 6 days after my son was born nearly a year ago. I don't blame God - but, I desperatly need God to get me through it. I know that a person has their limits - when those limits are reached what else is to sustain them when all they had before was their own will? I'm not speaking as if I have no experience with the power that God has. He has picked me up and held me together and kept me going. I would not be here if I didn't have that crutch. Am I a weak person? - compared to most - no....but, I no longer need to rely on myself.

quote:

The pattern I mentioned before almost always includes a "miracle". I don't want to undermine your experiences but keep in mind that there are still unexplained phenomenon and that incredible luck is still natural.

I really have no way of putting what happened to me in words. I can only ask you to accept that a very profound thing happened and I have no other option then to believe it was God who saved me from myself.

quote:

If you just replaced the thought "God loves me" with "Me and my life are important", wouldn't the effect be the same?

Not even close to being the same...

quote:

About you not forcing your views and voicing an opinion, there is really no difference in democratic society. If your opinion causes misery and finds itself in the majority, it is the same as forcing views. This is why I pursue the discussion. You are entitled to your opinion but if it is potentially harmful and dangerous to others, this needs to be addressed.

Guilt by association then? I suppose this is the crux of the issue - who defines morality? Even discpline seems harmful at first - but, we endure being corrected to our benefit.

So if I take a stand that in the long run, homosexuality has no lasting benefit to maintaining a civiliation - this is because by the very nature of homosexuality there can be no reproduction. Therefore, in the long term it will never maintain a majority and will always struggle for "equality"

The harm they feel is brought on by themselves not by me by choice or proxy. This is why it is imparitive to keep an eye on history and the folly of man.

We often lose site very quickly of cause and effect and consequence.

quote:

As I said before, nothing works the same for everyone. There are many ways one can go about his life. If we all felt obliged to tell people the "good way" which is never exactly the same for everyone, you can imagine the level of disagreement and discord we would be in.

This condition already exists. However, this does not mean I should discontinue with my views or sharing them whenever I have a chance. So people disagree- great. We can still part ways and enjoy the day.

quote:

The attitude of a loving friend is accepting one as he is.

Unconditional love is one thing but letting your friend walk around with their zipper down is another. I'm sure you as a loving friend would correct them when you see something wrong? I hope...

quote:

If there are lessons to be learned from you, one will ask you or observe your life. Seeking people to tell them what's the correct way to live is condescending, patronizing, rude.

I've never said anthing about the "correct" way to live. All I am talking about is "another" way to live.

quote:

But it becomes evil when you want to force your way on the whole society as if human beings are exact replicas of each other. They are not and you have to respect this.



I do respect it - but even your views can be forced on others as you feel compelled to correct me in my error in thinking. So is it also evil for you to dispell my views in regards for your own?







[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-22-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

So your answer is to forget about history and the wisdom of learning from it's folly just because it doesn't match your view of today's trends? Why do you want me to conform to your way of thinking? Aren't you preaching that we all have the right to believe and live however we want? Why do you then tell me I am wrong for my views? Isn't that hypocritical?

You can believe anything you want as long as you do not interfere in people's lives. Since you do, don't try to make it sound like I'm taking away your free speech or something when what you're doing is much worse. You haven't managed to come up with ONE reason of why homosexual marriage would be a bad thing or how it would affect you in any way.

Don't talk to me about trends. Human rights isn't a fancy, new trend that is passing before we get back to God's way of stoning unbelievers. I was referring to the bible, not history. What exactly is that which history and its folly teaches you in this case, I am seriously interested.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I agree, we voted it on it, time and time again. It gets voted down nearly everywhere it shows up. People do not want this to happen. What else is there to say?

I'll say it one more time. Voting does not apply. When something is a fact, it's because of the evidence, not because of a majority voting. The fact here is that homosexuals are humans that deserve the same rights as everyone.

Same case with people wanting to vote intelligent design into schools.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

You missed my point - the question was in regards to procreation among homosexuals.

Ah, so you really had no point. Yes, homosexuals don't procreate. The same with heterosexuals who are unable or choose not to.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Firstly, I have plenty of evidence to support a loose lifestyle often breeds those things. Secondly, I never said I wasn't narrowminded or bigoted in my views. Your challenge to my views shows that you are equally guilty of the same. You have your views that you stand by and I have mine. I'll accept that I'm wrong if I said your ideas are wrong. But, I never have.

What are you talking about? Isn't this a debate where we are supposed to support our ideas? It is dangerously becoming meaningless because you have not offered one piece of evidence and I find myself arguing with air.

If my ideas aren't wrong, then end of discussion. I say your ideas are wrong and you still haven't said why it is not so.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



I study my thoughts very carefully. I do hope to live by wisdom. However, I'm destined to fail like everyone else.

How can wisdom be void of personal experience? So only intelligent wise people are living? I don't get your view. The only wisdom you accept is the one that matches with how you see things. I guess that would help comfort me if I did the same. However, sometimes true wisdom is what knocks down our own perceptions and leads us ot a new understanding of truth.

Are you prepared to knock down your perceptions which have been unchanged for thousands of years? What new understanding of truth are you talking about when your views are as ancient as it gets?

Wisdom from personal experience is nothing more than personal wisdom. It can only help you and nobody else. When it comes to society, one's personal experiences are irrelevant. Wisdom in this case means, and I am repeating myself, having all the data and making an informed decision.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



So margainalize it then? It's a real issue and you are not answering the question. Where does it end after homosexual marriage?

It never ends. You seem to have trouble with the concept of change. Well, society changes and we have to deal with it. I have fully answered your question, are you blind?

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Since when in this "me" society we live in does anybody care anything about benefiting society or what people think about their happiness? I think you live in a vacuum because of your own fantastical utopian views where there is no bad thing anybody can do because everybody is happy without restraints!!

What a happy strawman. It appears that human rights for you are a fantastical, utopian concept we shouldn't pursue because what would we do without restraints? God forbid!

Isn't it time you started presenting some real arguments to stop wasting my time?

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



It was projection - it was looking at the future - it was trying to apply wisdom like I was trying to say before....here..I'll quote it again since you missed it.. "All I can say is be sure to study the outcome very carefully of both sides instead of fosusing on the passion of the moment. Survival in this life requires us to understand the eventual consequence and outcome of our decisions. Seeing this then making the right choice will often save us from a very rough life."

You talk much and say nothing. You are looking into the future? Why neglect to tell us what you see? Consequences, outcomes, etc etc. Mention one! It's not a contest of conventional wisdom quotes.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Guilt by association then? I suppose this is the crux of the issue - who defines morality? Even discpline seems harmful at first - but, we endure being corrected to our benefit.

What's the benefit of the correction you wish to make in this case?

We define morality, as it is we who use it. Supernatural entities have no say in it.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



So if I take a stand that in the long run, homosexuality has no lasting benefit to maintaining a civiliation - this is because by the very nature of homosexuality there can be no reproduction. Therefore, in the long term it will never maintain a majority and will always struggle for "equality"

I didn't know homosexuals struggle to be in the majority. Sorry, but this is one of the stupidest things I read in totse.

Left-handedness also has no lasting benefit to maintaining civilization. Less rights for left-handed people too! Is this what you can only come up with?

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



The harm they feel is brought on by themselves not by me by choice or proxy. This is why it is imparitive to keep an eye on history and the folly of man.

We often lose site very quickly of cause and effect and consequence.

Throwing a general statement without connecting it at all with the issue at hand isn't going to impress anyone. Again, mention one f* consequence and one f* event in history that proves your point (I sure hope you are serious enough to not bring up Sodom here!)

What harm is brought by themselves?

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



This condition already exists. However, this does not mean I should discontinue with my views or sharing them whenever I have a chance. So people disagree- great. We can still part ways and enjoy the day.

Yes, the condition exists, mostly because of religious self-righteousness. The day is less enjoyable for some people because of your views and your urge to share them. Don't pretend it is so harmless.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Unconditional love is one thing but letting your friend walk around with their zipper down is another. I'm sure you as a loving friend would correct them when you see something wrong? I hope...

Your analogy is very bad, because you present your friend's accidental appearance as wrong by default. What about a friend wearing red hats which you hate? You don't like it, fine, but it is not harming you in any way. To tell him it is wrong to wear it and try to make a law against it is simply evil.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



I've never said anthing about the "correct" way to live. All I am talking about is "another" way to live.

Oh please. Then concede that "another" way to live can be as "correct" as yours.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



I do respect it - but even your views can be forced on others as you feel compelled to correct me in my error in thinking. So is it also evil for you to dispell my views in regards for your own?

Yes, it is and that's why I do not respond to the parts about your personal life. If it helps you, I am glad that it does. I was just sharing the atheist's point of view and wasn't trying to "convert" you. (Besides, these internet confrontations are rarely for the benefit of the actual writers, but for those undecided readers.)

However, that's not the same as a view that affects the personal lives of others. If you want to respect others, you are to keep these views for yourself and not hinder society from becoming a better place. Happier people, better society.

Its interesting how certain Totseans have no qualms with voting when it comes to abortion, but when it comes to homosexuality its somehow null and void.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Its interesting how certain Totseans have no qualms with voting when it comes to abortion, but when it comes to homosexuality its somehow null and void.

That's not the case at all, you're you misnterpreting it.

Voting would decide if something is legal or illegal, not if something is moral or not. That is the issue. Simply because a majority of people vote against homosexual marriage, does not make it moral to do so, nor does it refute the arguments in it's favor. Hence why Interest's argument holds no water.

The same applies to abortion. If it is allowed to remain (say by a vote) then that fact, in and of itself, does not make it morally sound (nor immoral either); legality and morality are not necesarrily one and the same, though they do interesct many times.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 04-22-2006).]