This is really directed towards Digital, but of course anyone can join in. I want to continue where we left off on how you assume you can fully comprehend God, his actions, the way the universe works, etc.

It would be nice if we could continue where we left off on this page. I would like your response to the last thing I said.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum14/HTML/005466-4.html

BUMP

I'd like to hear them try and get out of this one too.

The arguement seems dead. I'm trying to figure out where I can jump in but it seems like it has been worked out and and all dissenters have been squashed.

You have a popular opinion supporting gay adoptions. Congratulations - what else is there to debate?

This nation is based on popular opinions and the majority will most likely win at the end of the day. This doesn't mean it is either right or wrong. Its just a measure of where we stand as a people. "Just because a million people believe in a foolish thing doesn't change the fact that it is a foolish thing."

quote:"Just because a million people believe in a foolish thing doesn't change the fact that it is a foolish thing."

So many followers of a God...

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

So many followers of a God...

It is true - However, to be a fool for Christ is much better then to be a fool for the world. Of course that is just my opinion and perspective as if it is valid. I won't fool myself and believe you would see it from where I stand.

The world is just a playground of misadventure my friend. With all the crossroads we face throughout a lifetime I hope you never forget the one road that is the most foolish of all.

To the one who expects death how can there be another path? I do see how being told likewise would sound foolish to you though.

You believe in death, great - but, I want to tell you how to live.

For the rest of your life, you will be told again and many more times more that death of the body is not just the end of time but the begining of eternity.

I can only tell you this in faith because it is where I put my hope on His promise.

This world sucks - sorry, I'm not an optimistic bible thumper..this place really blows - there is nothing nice or neat about it and I can't wait to get out of it.

The idea of a paradise is all that I have to keep me putting one foot in front of the other - without faith, I will die for certain.

thanks again for reading.

Faith is for those who have nothing but absurd hope, as you have just admitted. I don't need that.

You, on the other hand, obviously need a god.

[This message has been edited by Adrenochrome (edited 04-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

It is true - However, to be a fool for Christ is much better then to be a fool for the world. Of course that is just my opinion and perspective as if it is valid. I won't fool myself and believe you would see it from where I stand.

The world is just a playground of misadventure my friend. With all the crossroads we face throughout a lifetime I hope you never forget the one road that is the most foolish of all.

To the one who expects death how can there be another path? I do see how being told likewise would sound foolish to you though.

You believe in death, great - but, I want to tell you how to live.

For the rest of your life, you will be told again and many more times more that death of the body is not just the end of time but the begining of eternity.

I can only tell you this in faith because it is where I put my hope on His promise.

This world sucks - sorry, I'm not an optimistic bible thumper..this place really blows - there is nothing nice or neat about it and I can't wait to get out of it.

The idea of a paradise is all that I have to keep me putting one foot in front of the other - without faith, I will die for certain.

thanks again for reading.



I want to say something to you now.

You understand things well, and no matter what things I argue with you about on this site, I never want you to change your religion.

You happen to need a God. Fine. As long as you never let your chosen God lead you away from what you know to be right, I am all for it.

By the way, I am curious...what are your beliefs on evolution and gay marriage? You seem more perceptive, honest, and realistic than digi so just wondering.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

Faith is for those who have nothing but absurd hope, as you have just admitted. I don't need that.

You, on the other hand, obviously need a god.



Amen to that. Well said.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:



I want to say something to you now.

You understand things well, and no matter what things I argue with you about on this site, I never want you to change your religion.

You happen to need a God. Fine. As long as you never let your chosen God lead you away from what you know to be right, I am all for it.

By the way, I am curious...what are your beliefs on evolution and gay marriage? You seem more perceptive, honest, and realistic than digi so just wondering.



The laws of God are set as a barrier and a filter of sorts. These laws are not designed to govern our lives in this world alone. As you know many people have lived opposed to these commanments but nothing has happened to them. In fact they often seem to prosper. So why the laws of God if they don't appear to have effect in this world?

The laws of God that oppose homosexuality are there (if I dare say it) to preserve heaven. As homosexuality (among other things) is called an abomination. Whether I agree with it or not matters little. If God says these kinds of things will not be in Heaven nor will they enter heaven, then so be it.

It is not really my place to have an opinion. Even if I said God should allow the homosexual into Heaven because I think they are good and loving people deep down inside doesn't matter at all. I have no power to make a judgement of condemnation on others nor do I care to have that kind of power.

It really doesn't matter what my opinion is of the matters of this world. I need to keep focused on how I conduct myself and guard that carefully otherwise I might be doing something that is an abomination before God as well. All sin is a sin no matter if it's stealing, adultry, drunkeness or homosexuality in the eyes of God. His rules, I didn't make it up.

As for evolution, it would be foolish to conclude anything based on so much missing information on both sides. The order of Genesis supports a form of the theory of evolution.

While Gensis doesn't describe mankind coming out of the bloodlines of monkeys and fish, it appears as if all things appeared as the speciies they are with no cross breed mutations. (I have yet to see conclusive evidence that it has really happened likewise)

Genesis does describe how female came out of male. Meaning how we eventually went from a individual being containing both sexes to heterosexual (I don't dare say asexual because there is no evidence MAN reproduced at all prior to being man and woman.) Through the process described in Genesis on the 5th day agrees with some of the cell splitting views of evolution. Meaning how did a cell eventual form into an animal and then reproduce through a male and female gender of the species?

As for plant fossiles predating animals and dinasaur bones predating human bones, the bible is in agreement with the fossile record as it shows how things appeared in the order of Genesis.

Now I realize there are huge holes in all of this technically but the very basics are there.

The thing I still do not accept is cross species mutations as science has yet to show the "missing link". As the science appears now, without presumptions and projected hypothesis, it matches Genesis at the basic levels.

I'm not an enemy to science but the only thing that prevents us from accepting the data we have now as a final truth, is the idea of a missing bridge that enforces the idea of a cross species mutation from a sea dwelling creature to a earth roaming creature.

As it stands, the missing information could just be the proof that this did not happen as things did appear in this world as the species that they are as described in Genesis.

I think that the unproven idea of the "missing link" is what is preventing us from accepting that Gensis is accurate as it does match well with what scientist have solidly proven right now void of presumptions of a missing link.

The bottom line is I think the further science honestly goes into the origins of this planet, we will see more and more of the theories of evolution matching Genesis.

That is my opinion.





[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-14-2006).]

Interest, the point is that science has already disproven Genesis. If you did some reading on the subject you would know that according to evolution females preceded males. Also, the theory of punctuated equilibrium (the idea that species will evolve more rapidly when the environment itself changes rapidly) explains the so called "missing links". Even so, the fossil of a creature that is a link between sea and earth species has been found quite recently and I'm surprised you haven't heard about it.

I like that you are not preaching or quoting the bible in your posts. It seems though that the bible has gotten to you before science and your choices are not your own. "His rules, I didn't make it up" you say. You didn't make it up, other humans did. You think if it was really made by God, it would fail to convince people or it would contradict science and itself? Maybe it's time to look critically at your beliefs because the hope they will be someday validated is false.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Interest, the point is that science has already disproven Genesis. If you did some reading on the subject you would know that according to evolution females preceded males. Also, the theory of punctuated equilibrium (the idea that species will evolve more rapidly when the environment itself changes rapidly) explains the so called "missing links". Even so, the fossil of a creature that is a link between sea and earth species has been found quite recently and I'm surprised you haven't heard about it.

I like that you are not preaching or quoting the bible in your posts. It seems though that the bible has gotten to you before science and your choices are not your own. "His rules, I didn't make it up" you say. You didn't make it up, other humans did. You think if it was really made by God, it would fail to convince people or it would contradict science and itself? Maybe it's time to look critically at your beliefs because the hope they will be someday validated is false.



Where do I start?

If the bible is written by men, then you say, therefore it is flawed. However, if I say that science is by man, then will you also say that it is flawed as well?

You hang onto the words of the scientist as if there is no manipulation of the facts and all things are perfect an honest. You trust the words of those men as much as I trust the words of the "prophets". How is it that your way seems to have no flaws but mine does?

You seem hypocritical in your views.

I don’t trust science until I see facts and figures that back up what they’re saying. Plus, science doesn’t claim to be 100% correct and science doesn’t claim that it makes no mistakes, unlike religion.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



The laws of God are set as a barrier and a filter of sorts. These laws are not designed to govern our lives in this world alone. As you know many people have lived opposed to these commanments but nothing has happened to them. In fact they often seem to prosper. So why the laws of God if they don't appear to have effect in this world?

The laws of God that oppose homosexuality are there (if I dare say it) to preserve heaven. As homosexuality (among other things) is called an abomination. Whether I agree with it or not matters little. If God says these kinds of things will not be in Heaven nor will they enter heaven, then so be it.

It is not really my place to have an opinion. Even if I said God should allow the homosexual into Heaven because I think they are good and loving people deep down inside doesn't matter at all. I have no power to make a judgement of condemnation on others nor do I care to have that kind of power.

It really doesn't matter what my opinion is of the matters of this world. I need to keep focused on how I conduct myself and guard that carefully otherwise I might be doing something that is an abomination before God as well. All sin is a sin no matter if it's stealing, adultry, drunkeness or homosexuality in the eyes of God. His rules, I didn't make it up.

But there are more issues to it than that. For one, there is no way to tell if God actually had something against homosexuals or if his word was used for other motives beyond our realm of comprehension, if this was a period thing, or even if the bible says anything against homosexuals (as some have traced the interpretation to mean male prostitute). And furthermore is it man's place to even guess what God's position on homosexuality is.

It is my opinion that it is not; I think that God is unexplainable and this is well documented often in the bible, though most obviously in the Book of Job. I think there are greater messages in the bible than anti-homosexuality that should be paid attention to.



[This message has been edited by Skankinsasquatch (edited 04-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



Where do I start?

If the bible is written by men, then you say, therefore it is flawed. However, if I say that science is by man, then will you also say that it is flawed as well?

You hang onto the words of the scientist as if there is no manipulation of the facts and all things are perfect an honest. You trust the words of those men as much as I trust the words of the "prophets". How is it that your way seems to have no flaws but mine does?

You seem hypocritical in your views.



Science IS of course flawed by nature. I never said otherwise. This is why it is able to improve constantly. There is no hypocrisy on my part. I trust science because I can see its effect on my every day life. The fact that we can debate, sitting comfortably in our rooms while miles apart is a feat of science. If the way of thinking of the scientific method offers me medicine, transportation, the internet etc. why should I not find it trustworthy? You are dangerously into conspiracy theory territory if you claim that scientists have an ulterior motive in their discoveries. Present this theory in detail if you please and you will quickly find it debunked.

On the other hand, how can you claim so easily that the writings of people who lived thousands of years ago can be an absolute moral authority? The Bible is correct because it says so in the Bible? You seem intelligent so you should see what the problem is here. Morality is a concept to help humans live better, a dynamic and evolving code whose purpose is to minimize harm and maximize happiness. The morality offered by the Bible fails to do that; it is set in stone while society has progressed. My opinion is that we all can be moral without the need of mythical beings or afterlife impossibilities. It is a fundamental problem for humanity to adhere to a morality that serves a God for no obvious reasons, when it should serve humanity itself for very obvious reasons.