This is just a theory of mine, but here it goes:

In the bible it says that God is sinless and the creator of all things, so obviously if this is true (If you are a Christian I cant say much about the other two main religions) then he must have created sin. In Christianity God is also omnipotent, as well as the creator of the mankind and the Earth itself. How can such a creature be sinless yet create a sinfull being? True it may actually prove impossible for him to physically sin himself. Yet him being omnipotent must have known that mankind his creation would break all his mandates and commit every sin that God had created. Thus creating something you know would sin would this not make you sinner. Or is God above such things?

Sin is not a "thing." It is an attitude. It is the attitude that you are bigger than God.

Also, man at first was not sinful.

Read the Bible sometime, you might learn something.

It matters not whether man was sinless at first or not God in his omnipotence knew that they would eventually sin. My opinion is that God tested mankind (again if you do beleive in this) by planting a tree to lay the cursed fruit. God must have known the outcome he is omnipotent so the bible which you asked me to read says. He told man kind not to sin yet gave them the resources to do so. He tempted sinless mankind, and made them sinners. Sin (again in my opinon) became a "thing" when it was planted in Eden. Did God purposely dirty his own purfect world? If Sin is a attiude that your higher than God then why does it come in the form of rules? Thou Shalt not kill or thou shalt not do that! If sin is an attitude against God then that would imply that God does these things, and indeed by reading the bible I can tell you he does.

either way this is my opinon, and not meant to be takin literally or insult your religion.

(Feel free to give me your feedback and opinons!)

Believe me - there are many more contradictions to do with our all powerful friend than that one...

The christians can not directly refute them so they just brush their replies in sugar to keep any other christians that are reading assured that their religion is right.

I love it.

-He gave us the Ability to sin. The ability to choose whether or not we WILL sin. That's why he loves us so much, because by serving Him, we are choosing to devote ourselves to Him, and His wants. The Tree of Knowledge wasn't Sin, it was filled with knowledge of Good and of Evil. By eating the Fruit, man didn't sin, but went against what God wanted. Therefore, he brought upon us pain.

-He created us, knowing we would sin. But the Commandments were created to serve as a guiding force for those who want to follow Him. It divides the good from the bad. You can create whatever you want, and set upon them whatever rules you want. If you have control over the consequences, anything goes. But that doesn't make him a sinner.

-A teacher can put forth rules in a classroom. Knowing children, they will see a few as unfair and not care if they get broken. They will also see a few as kind of daring them to break them. But the teacher still has the authority over the kids. And the power to punish them if he wants. He is above the rules, because they don't apply to him.

Einstein signed letters that allowed the development of the nuclear bomb. Does that make him responsible for the use of the bomb, and deaths caused by it?

In my opinion, he is not.

Kalashnikov is not responsible for the deaths of all those who used rifles based on his design, the people using his rifles were.

Einstein was not omnipotent or omniscient. He didn't create the universe and he couldn't see the future. See the difference?

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

he couldn't see the future.

I'm sure he had a good idea that the bomb would be used.

Or else he would not have pleaded for it not to be.

Kalashnikov designed a rifle. What else do people do with rifles than kill or practice for killing?

[This message has been edited by Kadafi (edited 04-17-2006).]

What is sin really? Is it a helpful concept for man or just an arbitrary invention used for psychological oppression and manipulation?

The creator of the universe murdered every innocent firstborn in Egypt to make the Pharaoh change his mind. You would think omnipotence would give God other options besides terrorism. If such a being defines what sin is, are we to trust it at all?

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Einstein was not omnipotent or omniscient. He didn't create the universe and he couldn't see the future. See the difference?

Let's say you were so mad at a person that you wanted to kill him or her. Let's say I give you a pistol. You use this pistol to kill this person? Does that exclude me from all responsibility? No. You still did the deed yourself, but can you honestly say I had nothing to do with it?

quote:Originally posted by Dre Crabbe:

Let's say you were so mad at a person that you wanted to kill him or her. Let's say I give you a pistol. You use this pistol to kill this person? Does that exclude me from all responsibility? No. You still did the deed yourself, but can you honestly say I had nothing to do with it?



Ultimately, it was the person who pulled the trigger's decision. No one else's.

quote:-He gave us the Ability to sin. The ability to choose whether or not we WILL sin.

Actually God (Who - by the way would have no gender) can not have given us that ability. Infact we do not have that ability at all and neither does God.

We come to a fork in the road - one road is road X and the other is road Y.

The ability of choice would mean we could choose either X or Y.

God knows that we will choose X due to Gods omniscience.

We cannot possibly choose Y, Y was only an illusory option and it never actually existed.

We have no freewill to choose what we do if God exists - everything is pre-defined.

Replace 'we' with 'God' and you will also see why God has no freewill either. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



quote:A teacher can put forth rules in a classroom...

Comparing a teacher to an all-powerful, all-knowing God?? Bad, bad analogy.

Your God does not exist.

-Of course God gave us that ability... That's the Free-will thing. We have the power to make our own choices in life.

-Just because He (and I'm going to say He, even though he's supposedly ungendered) knows what we'll do doesn't mean that choice Y never existed, just that we would never choose it, no matter how much thinking and weighing of the pros and cons we did. It's still up to us, even though he knew. If you chose Y, God would have known about that, too. It's not like you can choose both, to spite God, because once you do, He'd have known.

-If you replace "we" with "God" you come to the matter of God making choices. What does He do anymore? Does He need to make choices? And if He did, would he have known what He was going to do before He did it (He might have since He's "all-good" as well as all-knowing and all-powerful, He'd just do what is "good" [in His way, not the convential "what is" good] as if for eternity's existence, He has and will only make "good" choices)

-How is it a "bad, bad" analogy? We were created to serve Him, to listen to what He said to do. If we don't we get punished. Just as teachers impart knowledge, God imparts, Grace and Hope that will help you out in the long run. And it was about the rules/commandment thing, too.

-And He's not my god. I already know He doesn't exist (Theists: Please don't argue with me about "know").

[HomoBlaxican]

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Believe me - there are many more contradictions to do with our all powerful friend than that one...

The christians can not directly refute them so they just brush their replies in sugar to keep any other christians that are reading assured that their religion is right.

I love it.

Plese, name me one. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Of course God gave us that ability... That's the Free-will thing. We have the power to make our own choices in life.

As nice as it might sound - God didn't give us that ability and we don't have that ability. Despite what illusions you may believe in.

quote:Just because He (and I'm going to say He, even though he's supposedly ungendered) knows what we'll do doesn't mean that choice Y never existed

Yes it does - how could it exist if we can never choose it because our choices are all pre-defined and have been pre-defined since the existance of God, which would be forever.

quote:just that we would never choose it, no matter how much thinking and weighing of the pros and cons we did.

What if God told us before we made the choice that it knows we will choose X...with this knowledge could we then choose Y?? I see no reason why we couldn't - unless God doesn't know everything or unless we don't have freewill, u decide which it is http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:If you replace "we" with "God" you come to the matter of God making choices. What does He do anymore? Does He need to make choices? And if He did, would he have known what He was going to do before He did it (He might have since He's "all-good" as well as all-knowing and all-powerful, He'd just do what is "good" [in His way, not the convential "what is" good] as if for eternity's existence, He has and will only make "good" choices)

So here you have bounded your Gods ability in two different ways. Not only can God not go against what it knows it will choose, but it must also choose what is 'good' - if Gods choices are limited how can God be omnipotent??? Surely an omnipotent being can choose what it wants...

quote:And He's not my god. I already know He doesn't exist

So you are not a theist?? I don't get it...maybe i misread something earlier.

quote:Plese, name me one.

Assume God is omnipotent/omniscient/omnibenevolent:

God must choose the most loving path.

If God is truely omnipotent God could choose any path.

God cannot choose a path that isn't loving.

God is either not omnipotent or not omniscient.

-------------

God knows what God will do in the future.

An omniscient God is free to do what it wants.

If God knows what it will choose to do it can only choose that path.

Gods choice are restricted to what it knows it will do.

God is either not omniscient or not omnipotent.

---------------

There is two for now.

Not to mention the part where there is 'no' evidence whatsoever of God existing.

Yo Daz:

-WTF?

-Where did you read that I believed in God?!

I just put forth arguments based on His existence. I never claimed to believe in Him myself. You did misread something.

-In order to argue effectively, you must research the other side thoroughly. Something that I did plenty of way back when.

-I am assuming that the only reason that you say God didn't give us that ability, is because you don't believe in Him. Hence the "illusions."

-If you were told that you'd choose X, then you would choose X. To not would be to disprove His omniscience. No matter what, you would choose X, be it from extraordinary circumstances, freak accidents, or divine revelation, X WILL be the choice. An omniscient being is always going to be right. Free Will can still exist. Prior knowledge doesn't take away your free-will.

+Okay. I get in a time machine set to tomorrow and watch you eat. I only watch, do not interfere in any way. I write the contents of your meals on a slip of paper. After returning to today, I give you the paper, enclosed in a box or something. I say not to open the box until the end of tomorrow. Tomorrow comes, you eat. At the end of the day, you open the box, read the paper, and see that I knew what you were going to eat. Did I take away your Free will? No.

+If you had read the paper before eating, and then Changed your food, then it must not have been YOU that I was watching, rather a you in a different dimension, or universe, or something (I don't friggin' know). If you would have eaten the correct things, then I would have been right. Since you didn't I was right, but about the wrong person. Ouch. my head.

-Hey, I don't know how the all-good/powerful thing works, either. I guess everything God does is good, no questions asked, because He knows everything...or something. *Shrugs shoulders*

-Once again. Yes. I am athiest.



[HomoBlaxican]

quote:Where did you read that I believed in God?!

I just put forth arguments based on His existence. I never claimed to believe in Him myself. You did misread something.

Just assumed it because usually the people argue in favor of what they believe in.

quote:I am assuming that the only reason that you say God didn't give us that ability, is because you don't believe in Him. Hence the "illusions."

No.

God didn't give us that ability because we don't have that ability. The illusion i'm refering to is freewill.

quote:No matter what, you would choose X, be it from extraordinary circumstances, freak accidents, or divine revelation, X WILL be the choice.

Surely God would foresee any circumstances/accidents or revelations beforehand...

quote:An omniscient being is always going to be right. Free Will can still exist. Prior knowledge doesn't take away your free-will.

Yes it does. The existence of that prior knowledge also creates the possbility that i could somehow know what i will choose (if God told me for example) - then what would be stopping me from choosing the other path??? What invisible barrier is there??

Either we have no freewill or your God is not omniscient.

quote:Okay. I get in a time machine set to tomorrow and watch you eat. I only watch, do not interfere in any way. I write the contents of your meals on a slip of paper. After returning to today, I give you the paper, enclosed in a box or something. I say not to open the box until the end of tomorrow. Tomorrow comes, you eat. At the end of the day, you open the box, read the paper, and see that I knew what you were going to eat. Did I take away your Free will?

I never had freewill to start with. It is an illusion. The analogy is difficult to deal with because there are so many time travel paradoxes (like where you talked about different dimensions).

Lets replace you with God, and God gave me the piece of paper. If God knows what i'm going to eat before i choose to eat it then how can i eat anything else?? What other options are there for me in this choice - surely a choice has more than one option.

quote:If you had read the paper before eating, and then Changed your food, then it must not have been YOU that I was watching, rather a you in a different dimension...

Exchanging you with God to avoid the time travel paradoxes again - what happens now?? God knew and told me, and i changed it...once again either i can't change it (no freewill) or god isn't omniscient...

quote:Hey, I don't know how the all-good/powerful thing works, either.

That was directed at Argon who asked :

"Plese, name me one."

having failed to read most of this thread -

God = creator

creator creates people

many people (created by God) sin.

-------------------------------

God = omniscient

people sin

God knew they were going to sin.

-------------------------------

God = omnipotent

people sin

God could stop people sinning.

===============================

Summary: God created mankind knowing full well that they were going to commit sins. Whilst they were committing sins he had the absolute power to stop them or at least prevent them.

2 good comparisons:

1)It's like knowing a murder is going to happen, giving the guy the gun watching the guy get shot not calling the police and not helping him.

2)God drops an anvil on a cat and blames it on gravity.

I'm saying that God cant be sinless if he creates a creature he knows will sin beforehand, as god he would be reposible for that sin thus causinh him to be a sinner thus making your doctrine void unless god is above sin which I guess is what your trying to say Argon.

I don't see anyone replying so i guess the argument is over http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Sin is not a "thing." It is an attitude. It is the attitude that you are bigger than God.

Also, man at first was not sinful.

Read the Bible sometime, you might learn something.



I think he refers to the actual eating of the apple.

quote:Originally posted by born:



I think he refers to the actual eating of the apple.

I suppose I am anyway I was hoping for more of a discussion on this.