-Most people won't believe in god without Proof, right? Not Virgins in Tortillas. Not odd events in the hospital. Most people need actual physical proof. Concrete proof in their lives that God is real.

-But with that kind of proof comes Knowledge. And with knowledge, Faith ceases to be. Yet faith is something that most religions rely on (to screw you over, hehe), claiming that it is only with Faith that you show your unending trust in that invisible entity.

-So can we ever have proof that there is a God? If we did, and this proof was spread around the world, then everybody would know that they'd have to follow certain rules to get into heaven, or fear hell's eternal punishment.

-People would follow God's teachings. Some would turn to the Churches, some to the Bible. Life would be geared towards not wanting to go to Hell, making sure you make the right choices, because you now KNOW that He's there, keeping a list and checking it twice.

-Would God seem like a dictator then?

- What would the world be like if He came down, only for a second, made it so we wouldn't explode or go crazy by hearing His voice, said

"I'm real. So you know."

Created a dodo bird, or something. Deactivated all nuclear devices so we couldn't blow each other up. And then left, never to return.

[HomoBlaxican]

If we had 100% proof that could be tested that god was real, or even if he came down from wherever he is and performed impossible things that would basically prove he is god, there would still be people in the world who didnt believe in it, thats life.

Personally i think its a crock of shit.

You know, it's entirely possible for faith and knowledge to co-exist and work together.

But not in the religious way. Faith is another test of trust.

God does not require blind obedience. Only that you believe what you know to be true.

-God's version of obedience isn't blind. He wants you to see the Goods in the world and attribute them to Him. You must renounce the Evils by calling upon God to help deter you from temptation.

-You need Faith that your soul was saved because Jesus died on the cross. If not, then he was just another guy that was crucified (which happened alot). You have to believe that your slate was wiped clean because of God's/Jesus's sacrifice.

-Have faith in the Bible's validity. Have faith in the teachings of the Church. Have Faith in God to get you out of trouble.

-Gotta have...faith.

Sure your saying what you need to do to get in heaven but these things are all from the bible or priests. The bible wasn't written immediatly after christ died and was passed down generation after generation.

quote:"The continually progressive change to which the meaning of words is subject, the want of a universal language which renders translation necessary, the errors to which translations are again subject, the mistakes of copyists and printers, together with the possibility of willful alteration, are of themselves evidences that the human language, whether in speech or in print, cannot be the vehicle of the Word of God. The Word of God exists in something else."

[Thomas Paine, Age of Reason]

quote:"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistant that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."

[Thomas Paine, _The Age of Reason_]

One other interesting thing is god requires worship, if he is all powerful why is this? He is above pride and other sins so he shouldn't require worship.

quote:"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."

[Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728]

And as an end note :

quote:"...Thomas did not believe the resurrection [John 20:25], and, as they say, would not believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other person, as for Thomas."

[Thomas Paine, Age Of Reason, pg. 54]

quote:God does not require blind obedience. Only that you believe what you know to be true.

Then God would require you to believe that he is not true and also to believe that only you are true - ultimatly leading to solipsism, because we can only know that we are true (i think therefore i am).

However, for this to happen you would have to believe God to be true in the first place so your definition of what to believe is circular.

God is true.

God requires that you believe what you know to be true.

You know god to be true. (how?? i don't know)

Therefore you believe in God

Even if you could somehow 'know god to be true' your entire system of belief relies on the assumption that God is true in the first place.

Alright, let me ask you religious folks something.

I kind of have a habit of digging to the root of things and pointing out flaws before everything gets going.

So let me ask you this.

What makes faith valuable?

Strange question, and at first glance it would seem obvious that faith is valuable. However, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.

In keeping with my usual style, I'm going to respond to the likely responses a priori, saving your typing fingers from carpal tunnel. If you get carpal tunnel from typing, I'm not sure.

"Belief in God makes you a better person."

Alright, well what happens if I am smarter then that, and I don't need God to make me into the best person I can be? Doesn't it make me even stronger and better of a person if I can be good just for the virtue of good and to help others? That doesn't show any value in faith itself, it just shows that you need faith to get up in the morning.

Hmm, I actually can't think of any other responses because the reason I asked this question is because I can't figure out anything. Here's what I have to say about it though.

To have faith means to believe without knowing. You can claim to know that there is a God, but great job, you just destroyed your faith, and can't be saved. So why is there positive values associated with the fact that you just believe something?

By the way, since 99% of christian arguments are from this perspective, I need to add a disclaimer.

Disclaimer: You are not allowed to start your argument from the assumption that you are correct, that God exists, and that the bible is infallible. Sorry. We don't all agree with you, you don't just 'know' that you're right, you aren't special.

Oh, Ian. You're naievity regarding this forum is touching.

In the three yars I've been here, the closest to a hypothetical situation I even seen a Christian even understand was hyro admitting that absolute proof the Bible wasn't infalliable would distroy his faith.

I wish you luck, but I've been trying to get people to understand your disclaimer for years, so you'll forgive me for doubting it'll happen.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Alright, let me ask you religious folks something.

I kind of have a habit of digging to the root of things and pointing out flaws before everything gets going.

So let me ask you this.

What makes faith valuable?

Strange question, and at first glance it would seem obvious that faith is valuable. However, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.

In keeping with my usual style, I'm going to respond to the likely responses a priori, saving your typing fingers from carpal tunnel. If you get carpal tunnel from typing, I'm not sure.

"Belief in God makes you a better person."

Alright, well what happens if I am smarter then that, and I don't need God to make me into the best person I can be? Doesn't it make me even stronger and better of a person if I can be good just for the virtue of good and to help others? That doesn't show any value in faith itself, it just shows that you need faith to get up in the morning.

Hmm, I actually can't think of any other responses because the reason I asked this question is because I can't figure out anything. Here's what I have to say about it though.

To have faith means to believe without knowing. You can claim to know that there is a God, but great job, you just destroyed your faith, and can't be saved. So why is there positive values associated with the fact that you just believe something?

By the way, since 99% of christian arguments are from this perspective, I need to add a disclaimer.

Disclaimer: You are not allowed to start your argument from the assumption that you are correct, that God exists, and that the bible is infallible. Sorry. We don't all agree with you, you don't just 'know' that you're right, you aren't special.

Alright, let's get some things said... It may not magically keep you a better person, but my faith does make me a better person. If I wasn't Christian, and if firmly believed with all my heart that there was no God.. I'd probably have no problem going and killing someone.

As for earth.. there is no real advantage.. Christians (myself included) believe the real action happens after you die. But your religous ways here on earth are a kind of test to what happens to you after you die. Christians basically believe... essentially, we're dancing around on our invitation at the moment.. and we need to tick 'Yes' or 'No' to heaven. And when we die, that invitation is sealed and delivered http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

But.. answering this question without assuming there's a God, or in a non religous way? Not possible. It's like me going to aetheists.. "Tell me what happens when you die.. don't use science as an explination." or "what created this all".



[This message has been edited by Jacobjac (edited 04-18-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:

Alright, let's get some things said... It may not magically keep you a better person, but my faith does make me a better person. If I wasn't Christian, and if firmly believed with all my heart that there was no God.. I'd probably have no problem going and killing someone.

And you somehow consider yourself to be moral saying this without shame? I don't believe in God and killing is an appaling concept to me. Apparently, it is only a stupid belief in a myth that stops you from it. You are dangerous.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



As for earth.. there is no real advantage.. Christians (myself included) believe the real action happens after you die. But your religous ways here on earth are a kind of test to what happens to you after you die. Christians basically believe... essentially, we're dancing around on our invitation at the moment.. and we need to tick 'Yes' or 'No' to heaven. And when we die, that invitation is sealed and delivered http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Nothing strikes you as wrong with this whole buisness, right? The fact that you disregard this life like it is a mere invitation game, is the reason for everything evil. Is it people like you that hold life sacred? I think not.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



But.. answering this question without assuming there's a God, or in a non religous way? Not possible. It's like me going to aetheists.. "Tell me what happens when you die.. don't use science as an explination." or "what created this all".

Oh, of course it is possible to answer but you don't want to. To even consider that there is no God would reveal you for the monster you are, right? If faith is the only thing that keeps you from a killing spree, please hold on to it. We don't want YOU to be an atheist.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

But not in the religious way. Faith is another test of trust.

Thats bullshit,

faith is a means of joining with christ, who is life

I could go on forever.. these battles could go on for the rest of our lives.. but clearly.. you're an idiot.. and you've taken everything I've said.. and twisted it to your liking.. and being the aetheist you are.. you've done another one of those 'lol, stupid christians, can't handle the truth' speeches.

What again is so fulfilling about being an aetheist? Why should I join aetheism? How the hell do you live with yourself if you honestly think you're dead then show's over? Fucking psycho's. Yeah, Christians are horrible..

quote:

And you somehow consider yourself to be moral saying this without shame? I don't believe in God and killing is an appaling concept to me. Apparently, it is only a stupid belief in a myth that stops you from it. You are dangerous.



Perhaps I worded myself wrong.. I too think killing is appaling. But... The point I'm trying to make is.. I'd have a lot less trouble doing evil things if I thought I was in control of the universe and that nothing mattered.

quote:

Nothing strikes you as wrong with this whole buisness, right? The fact that you disregard this life like it is a mere invitation game, is the reason for everything evil. Is it people like you that hold life sacred? I think not.



Invitation game? That's my beliefs.. We're living life here as a kind of test for our next life. And you couldn't be any more wrong about your stupid 'you dont hold life sacred' bullshit. I wish more than anything I do not die.. I hate the concept of dying.. I'd give a lot to be immortal.. I love life.

You better use your life wisely pal... The nothingness you so believe in awaits you, where you will be forgotten soon enough, as you appear to believe.

quote:h, of course it is possible to answer but you don't want to. To even consider that there is no God would reveal you for the monster you are, right? If faith is the only thing that keeps you from a killing spree, please hold on to it. We don't want YOU to be an atheist.

Oh please mister scientist :-( oh please, please tell us why there isn't a god.. oh please, tell us the proof that has been right infront of our eyes all of this time.. please.. please... please tell us what christians have been apparently ignoring all of this time, based on your scientific analysis :-(

Or perhaps... The mere thought that there may be a God, would force you to realise that you're bound for hell.. And it isn't a fun place to be.. and perhaps you'll regret the fuck out of it.

By the way... Aetheists are good people now? ahhahaa. People like you give the word aetheist a bad name. I don't have a problem with aetheists until they shove their nonsensical, 'LOLZ WE HAVE ALL TEH EVIDENCE ABOUT THE WORLD.. WHY CANT CHRISTIANS SEE IT MAENZ' bullshit. Get a fucking grip.

I sincerely hope for your sake there is a hell, you heartless beast. Don't try play the guilt card with me you idiot. Perhaps it's to sooth the guilt you feel every day in knowing how wrong you are.

I'm still waiting for some proof that there was no intelligent creator by the way.. All I've been given is a bunch of fucking quotes.



[This message has been edited by Jacobjac (edited 04-18-2006).]

-Why is it assumed that Atheists are some corrupt beings just because we don't have the threat of Hell hanging above our heads?

-Theists act good because they feel they must. They have set rules in front of them that they must follow or they'll go to Hell. They are just and holy, but because they follow an idea that was man-made anyway. If they do wrong, confession can somehow make it right.

-Atheists are good because we see this life as the only one (those of us who don't believe in reincarnation). We aren't bound by Commandments, but recognize the importance of being nice to each other because we are all human. We don't see an abscence of a god and immediately start planning the corruption or destruction of the rest of the world. If we do something wrong, it won't be fixed. It already happened. An apology might help, but usually doesn't.

quote:faith is a means of joining with christ, who is life

What does that even mean?? Satire?

quote:What again is so fulfilling about being an aetheist? Why should I join aetheism?

It isn't a cult, you don't join - and nobody said it was fufilling. Atleast it is a place of intelectuall honesty about your own mortality.

Unlike the religous who cannot accept that one day they will no longer be here, that they will die - and so they cling to the lies...

quote:How the hell do you live with yourself if you honestly think you're dead then show's over?

Because i'll die knowing i am intelectually honest - you'll die knowing you lived your life believing in a fictional book full of lies.

quote: I wish more than anything I do not die.. I hate the concept of dying..

Perfect example of what i said above about religious people being afraid of their own mortality.

quote:You better use your life wisely pal... The nothingness you so believe in awaits you

It awaits us all - it doesn't care what God you believe in http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Oh please mister scientist :-( oh please, please tell us why there isn't a god..

Burden of proof actually rests on the people making the assertion that there IS a God - we don't have to defend our position 'till you try and prove yours...we've been waiting a long time http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:please tell us what christians have been apparently ignoring all of this time

Logic.

quote:I sincerely hope for your sake there is a hell, you heartless beast.

Jesus would be proud of ya...

quote:I'm still waiting for some proof that there was no intelligent creator by the way..

Once again - burden of proof is with you...

I'm still actually waiting for proof that the universe wasn't created by a big invisible pink elephant named Bert.

There's no word "aetheist". When you learn how to spell, I may reply to you. I have more important things to do right now. Moron.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

There's no word "aetheist". When you learn how to spell, I may reply to you. I have more important things to do right now. Moron.

Thanks for taking a moment of your time to reply to correct my spelling, anyway. I find that much more flattering.

quote:

And you somehow consider yourself to be moral saying this without shame? I don't believe in God and killing is an appaling concept to me. Apparently, it is only a stupid belief in a myth that stops you from it. You are dangerous.

quote:

Nothing strikes you as wrong with this whole buisness, right? The fact that you disregard this life like it is a mere invitation game, is the reason for everything evil. Is it people like you that hold life sacred? I think not.

Good one, dipshit.

You've been defeated.. so you resort to my spelling. GOOD PLAN!! Fool.

Now, to some more serious replies..

quote:

Because i'll die knowing i am intelectually honest - you'll die knowing you lived your life believing in a fictional book full of lies.

Prove it.

I learnt what I know from a book written thousands of years ago by many people. Obviously, according to you, they were all liars, and they all died for what they believe in for no reason.

You learnt what you know.. whatever that is.. from other people.

quote:

Perfect example of what i said above about religious people being afraid of their own mortality.



I am afraid of death, yes. Are you not afraid of death? I didn't know atheists weren't afraid.

Make no mistake.. That's a poor example to say that we believe in God because we're afraid of death. I have anxiety among some other psychological issues (poke fun at them, if you will), but I know people who come to accept death.. Even before they became Christian. Hm. And after all.. If we believe that there's something after death.. Why would we hide it? Should we be ashamed if this is what we believe?

Christianity says there's something after death. Atheism says there's nothing.. anywhere.. That doesn't make atheism right. I'm not trying to turn anyone in to a Christian.. but I dislike it when the only excuse Atheists have is 'those Christians just can't see it.'

quote:

It awaits us all - it doesn't care what God you believe



I don't believe so.

quote:

Burden of proof actually rests on the people making the assertion that there IS a God - we don't have to defend our position 'till you try and prove yours...we've been waiting a long time



The proof is all around you... The earth is your proof.. the human body is your proof... what happened thousands of years ago is your proof... Evidently, these days, no atheist gives a flying fuck. I suppose it's a matter of perspective.. We apparently ignore everything.. but it sounds like atheists are ignoring the obvious. If you're looking for me to go 'Well.. I know where God lives.. let's go!' .. My religion teaches me that's not why we were created.. We were created with choice and your faith is your choice. Everyone would believe in God if he appeared to us.

On the same account.. We've been waiting a long time http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:

Logic.



Logic? Would logic have you believe we were formed from some rock and chemicals? The very advanced human form... and all the materials we have? Logic tells you that you die and your brain just shuts down?

Logic sounds like a fairy tale.. oh.. that's right... Christianity is reserved for that title.

quote:

Jesus would be proud of ya...



I'm not obliged to like him. There's some people I'll look forward to seeing from heaven.

quote:

I'm still actually waiting for proof that the universe wasn't created by a big invisible pink elephant named Bert.



Perhaps that would be more in your field.. Christians are confident in what created all of this.. an intelligent designer.. Atheists are the ones still scrambling for what's happened. I can't 'scientifically' prove it.. Science is something we created.. a man made way of explaining things, I think. But that little book which you all say is bullshit tells us what happened. It's better than the guesses being made by some scientists.

We'll have to end this at some point because none of us are going to be satisfied of the outcome.. and don't take this as me cowarding out of debate.. But this debate has gone on for 2000+ years.. I don't have that long to discuss it http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:

If I wasn't Christian, and if firmly believed with all my heart that there was no God.. I'd probably have no problem going and killing someone.....

By the way... Aetheists are good people now? ahhahaa. People like you give the word aetheist a bad name.

.





You are NOT a christian despite what you may believe. You are a gambler. You yourself have said over and over that you believe in god and follow Him merely to avoid hell. This is not the point in christianity.

You say ,"yes ,I am a christian.".

But there IS a difference between being a christian and saying you are a christian. Have you even read the new testament? All that shit about forgiveness and shit ,turning the other cheek? Yet you wish for us to go to hell?

WTF?

You are a product of the vengeful ,bloddthirsty god of the old testament. You are a product of fear. You admit to feeling more likely to perform criminal and morally wrong acts were there no god?

You talk more bullshit than anything I've seen on these boards. And as with so many 'christians' on this board your claim to being a christian is contestable.



I'm not obliged to like him.

Yes ... yes you are you dumb fuck. I believe Christ is pretty important in christianity.... Fuckig moron.

Christianity says there's something after death. Atheism says there's nothing.. anywhere..

That's not true. Atheism says there's no god. Not that theres no afterlife.



In anycase ,all you've shown me so far is closed minded shit. Grow the fuck up ,read the bible and learn what it is to be a real christian ....



*shakes head* So few christians worthy of the name ....

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:





*head explodes*

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:

I could go on forever.. these battles could go on for the rest of our lives.. but clearly.. you're an idiot.. and you've taken everything I've said.. and twisted it to your liking.. and being the aetheist you are.. you've done another one of those 'lol, stupid christians, can't handle the truth' speeches.

Yes, I exaggerated to make my point more apparent, I didn't twist anything. You missed the point anyway.

I must say your own speech is not the typical christian one. Kudos for defending a point of view you clearly don't know much about.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



What again is so fulfilling about being an aetheist? Why should I join aetheism? How the hell do you live with yourself if you honestly think you're dead then show's over? Fucking psycho's. Yeah, Christians are horrible..

Well, I can manage by not thinking about death and the afterlife all the time. I have a life to live. I think you are the one who has trouble living and the true psycho.

Atheism is not something that can fullfil you in itself, it just allows you to pursue something that will.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



Perhaps I worded myself wrong.. I too think killing is appaling. But... The point I'm trying to make is.. I'd have a lot less trouble doing evil things if I thought I was in control of the universe and that nothing mattered.

The point I was making doesn't change: your morality is seriously flawed. You admit you would want to do evil if you weren't afraid of hell.

Right, so atheists are in control of the universe (wow) and nothing matters to them. Really, you don't know anything.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



Invitation game? That's my beliefs.. We're living life here as a kind of test for our next life. And you couldn't be any more wrong about your stupid 'you dont hold life sacred' bullshit. I wish more than anything I do not die.. I hate the concept of dying.. I'd give a lot to be immortal.. I love life.

Yes, you love YOUR life. I'm not sure what you think about other lives considering what you admitted before.

Why hate dying? Aren't you happy to go to heaven? Or are you having doubts about its existence?

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



You better use your life wisely pal... The nothingness you so believe in awaits you, where you will be forgotten soon enough, as you appear to believe.

I am using my life wisely pal, because I know that's all I have before the nothingness that awaits everyone. Are you following your own advice or are you wasting your life in the invitation game?

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



Oh please mister scientist :-( oh please, please tell us why there isn't a god.. oh please, tell us the proof that has been right infront of our eyes all of this time.. please.. please... please tell us what christians have been apparently ignoring all of this time, based on your scientific analysis :-(

I never said I am a scientist. Apparently, you have issues with science because it flies in the face of your ridiculous beliefs. You definitely need help to work that out but as I said, I'm no scientist.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



Or perhaps... The mere thought that there may be a God, would force you to realise that you're bound for hell.. And it isn't a fun place to be.. and perhaps you'll regret the fuck out of it.

Even if there's a God I wouldn't worry much, I have no urges to start killing or anything so I should be safe. Bad luck for you though...

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



By the way... Aetheists are good people now? ahhahaa. People like you give the word aetheist a bad name. I don't have a problem with aetheists until they shove their nonsensical, 'LOLZ WE HAVE ALL TEH EVIDENCE ABOUT THE WORLD.. WHY CANT CHRISTIANS SEE IT MAENZ' bullshit. Get a fucking grip.

You are seriously very confused. You obviously know shit about atheism, even about what's good or not, so you wouldn't know if atheists are good people.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



I sincerely hope for your sake there is a hell, you heartless beast. Don't try play the guilt card with me you idiot. Perhaps it's to sooth the guilt you feel every day in knowing how wrong you are.

Heartless beast? I'm sorry I hurt you so deeply. As I said, yes I played the "guilt card" to make a point which you didn't get. You admitted you have no guilt, so my bad. The only guilt I feel is for having no patience for correcting your wrongs in a nicer way.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



I'm still waiting for some proof that there was no intelligent creator by the way.. All I've been given is a bunch of fucking quotes.

Well, you're gonna wait for a while longer. In the mean time, I am 100% sure that an immortal pink butterfly is flying around Jupiter. Prove to me that it doesn't.

quote:Originally posted by The Blue Preacher:

God does not require blind obedience. Only that you believe what you know to be true.



Nope. Christianity is not about believing in what you know to be true.

Christianity is believing in what you want to be true. Nothing more, nothing less.

In the case of christianity, it involves ignoring some science, contradictions and such (if you're *shudders* fundamentalist). Otherwise, it means turning a blind eye to the crimes God commits and the other moral fallacies in christian dogma and doctrine.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Oh, Ian. You're naievity regarding this forum is touching.

In the three yars I've been here, the closest to a hypothetical situation I even seen a Christian even understand was hyro admitting that absolute proof the Bible wasn't infalliable would distroy his faith.

I wish you luck, but I've been trying to get people to understand your disclaimer for years, so you'll forgive me for doubting it'll happen.



I'm rather optimistic about the intelligence and mental capacity of christians, what can I say.

I would like to point out, however, that I was the one who got hyro to admit that. Score. I'm trying it again.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:

*Blah Blah Blah etc, insert everything he said here*



Well all your points got torn to shreds, which was disappointing because after reading your first post I would've liked to have the fun of responding.

You're the kind of christian I have no respect for. If you need God to be moral, you have serious psychological problems. Please, leave this forum now, because christianity gets ripped to shreds here all the time, and if you don't get out of here, you might convert and start killing people. Good lord.

Firstly, you are very selfish. Only doing things to earn a place in heaven and to be 'above' all of us heathens is despicable. The fact that you would feel less bad about killing if there was no God shows how weak of a person you are, and how weak many religious dependents are. I mean come on.

You did just prove my point exactly though, so thank you. I don't think I could've asked for a better (or worse depending on how you look at it) person to display what I've been trying to explain.

Since when was it wrong to believe in God so you may go to heaven?

Lmfao.. Please, stop the comedy.

I'm not fit to be a Christian huh? Gee, all of those years down the drain for nothing :-(

Teach me more, atheist.

Though I feel little need to explain my religousness to you.. I never said I only believe in him to go to heaven. I'm not so much the moron you would have others believe.

The 'invitation game' tells us to be kind while we're here. Do you no support this?

None of you have successfully said anything here that would make a Christian convert to Atheism.. And I'm not saying I'd like that invitation. All you've demonstrated is your willingness to bash other's religions.

I didn't write the bible and I'm not Jesus. Very disfigured view you have on the religion it seems.

Atheists value life more? yeah. Wonder why they kill themselves each day.. Must be great.

Clutching at straws I'm afraid.

I'll go and murder some folks now..

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:

Since when was it wrong to believe in God so you may go to heaven?

Since bribes were considered immoral.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



Lmfao.. Please, stop the comedy.

You know what they say for people who laugh when no joke was made.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



I'm not fit to be a Christian huh? Gee, all of those years down the drain for nothing :-(

What years? I doubt you are older than 16.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



The 'invitation game' tells us to be kind while we're here. Do you no support this?

Yes. The difference is we do it for the sake of it and not for an invitation.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



None of you have successfully said anything here that would make a Christian convert to Atheism.. And I'm not saying I'd like that invitation. All you've demonstrated is your willingness to bash other's religions.

You see it as bashing because you don't agree. Noone is trying to convert you (especially if it would have the effect you let us assume it will). You say that faith makes you a better person and I argue that it does the opposite. You haven't come up with any arguments at all (for your side at least!).

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



Atheists value life more? yeah. Wonder why they kill themselves each day.. Must be great.

Yes, atheists who claim there's no afterlife commit suicide all the time. Where do you get this crap from? Seriously, grow up and read something other than the bible.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:



I'll go and murder some folks now..

Don't forget to tell them that Jesus sent you.

Oh the attempts.. oh the glory http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Not worth giving a proper reply to.. perhaps it'd be worth giving the reply to someone slightly less ignorant and oblivious who loathes in their own righteousness so much.

Bribes.. "Oh, oh you're 16!!".. "We do it for the sake of it". Rofl. This is comedy, whether you say it is or not.

You lose. I pitty you. I'll keep living my life confidently in my little 'fairy tale'.. You go ahead and live with your little countdown clock.

I have something to live for.. you do not. In your mind, you are doomed.

I look forward to your point-by-point bold reply.

Speaking of count-down clocks... Doomsday. Armegeddon.

Dude, we're all doomed.

What's funny is you repeating what I say and mocking as if that says anything more than your age. I'm sorry I dignified your post point by point when it didn't deserve it. Have fun wasting your life in stupid beliefs.

True freedom lies in the knowledge that you only live once, when you're dead you're done, and the only person you have to answer to is yourself.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:

Oh the attempts.. oh the glory http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Not worth giving a proper reply to.. perhaps it'd be worth giving the reply to someone slightly less ignorant and oblivious who loathes in their own righteousness so much.

Bribes.. "Oh, oh you're 16!!".. "We do it for the sake of it". Rofl. This is comedy, whether you say it is or not.

You lose. I pitty you. I'll keep living my life confidently in my little 'fairy tale'.. You go ahead and live with your little countdown clock.

I have something to live for.. you do not. In your mind, you are doomed.

I look forward to your point-by-point bold reply.

Not worth giving a reply to? I call bullshit in the 3rd degree. You just have no answers. As far as something to live for, you don't, you only have something to die for. You would die for heaven. That's the difference.

The plan I have for my life right now basically assures that I will help the poor and less fortunate until finally it catches up with me and I get killed. But you know what? I don't do it for heaven, or for myself. I do it for them. You may not realize it, but that makes my sacrifice infinitely more valuable then a christians because I have everything to lose, whereas you have everything to gain.

You don't need christianity to be good, and if you do, I have no respect for you.

quote:And man further went on to prove that black is white, and promptly got himself killed at the next zebra crossing.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:

Alright, let's get some things said... It may not magically keep you a better person, but my faith does make me a better person. If I wasn't Christian, and if firmly believed with all my heart that there was no God.. I'd probably have no problem going and killing someone.



God killed people. Follow God. Always. He's your master and commander. Listen to the voice in your head.

My real point: is it wrong to kill people though? You say it as if it were an exceptionally "bad" thing. But is it? I think not. If the person needs killing, and I consider myself the best judge of such matters, then I'll do it.

Anyway, doesn't matter.

quote:Originally posted by Jacobjac:

You lose. I pitty you. I'll keep living my life confidently in my little 'fairy tale'.. You go ahead and live with your little countdown clock.

I have something to live for.. you do not. In your mind, you are doomed.

You have something fake to live for.

Something that is condemning you to a life of slavery to a nonexistent being.

You have a life of sacrifice and denial for a nonexistent being's apparent wishes.

You have a life of fear, wondering if you add up to a nonexistent being's random wishes.

You have a life of guilt, worrying about supposedly "wicked" deeds committed.

You are a slave to a belief in an afterlife that does not exist. Building edifices of righteousness so your departed spirit can rest in peace forever.

I, however, am doomed to a world of pleasure. Doomed to the knowledge that this is my one shot at life, and I may not get another. Doomed to experience the beauty of life while I have it. Doomed to be free to do as I please, regardless of a God or an afterlife.

I do not care whether you reject God or not, it's not heartbreaking to me if you waste your life. I'm simply telling you what you have in store.

[This message has been edited by crazed_hamster (edited 04-19-2006).]