I'm a Muslim again. I lost my faith in my teens, but I have gone back to my faith. I visited my Muslim teacher at his home last night, along with many of my Muslim friends and I said the Shahadah there. I feel so good. I'm at work right now, and my boss is slready pissed off because I'll be leaving work to pray Dzuma on Fridays.

Just to let you know.

Real Muslim or that Sufi crap?

Good for you.

Don't Muslims believe there's 7 layers of heaven?

TheKillerMonkey: Real Muslim.

Elephantitis Man: Yep. The higher the level, the better it is.

good for you.

So, considering you're the first person I know to be a muslim on totse, what's your opinion on the whole Religion of Peace/Die America... thing?

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

So, considering you're the first person I know to be a muslim on totse, what's your opinion on the whole Religion of Peace/Die America... thing?

Muslims who wish death upon America are not real Muslims. They are fanatics, and they will earn themselves a place in Hellfire. Killing innocents is strictly forbidden in Islam, and anyone who claims otherwise and pulls quotes from the Qur'an is an idiot. I just want to live my life in peace, although that will be difficult, as the average Australian thinks most Muslims are terrorists. Even people here who claim to be Muslim are giving us a bad name. Particularly the Lebanese community and other 'Muslim' migrants who come here and piss all over it.

Anyways, I know quite a bit about Islam, if anyone needs any information about it, just ask. And if I don't know about what you're asking, I can find out easily.

Do you carry around a prayer rug?

I'm not being an ass, I'm just wondering. I would if I was muslim.

Yeah, I'm curious too. Don't you have to face Mecca and pray 5 times a day?

Also, what brought you back to your faith?

Do Bosnians drink vodka?

Talking with yourself 5 times a day??? eeeeeesh...

I heard a muslim say that the islamites believe that virtuous pagans and christians, well, heathens for you, go to a place which is similar to heaven?

While I like that this is more tolerant, I still don't believe in God/Allah/The Great Eye/whatever.

Hey, as long as you're not hurting anybody you're cool in my book.

Have you gone to Mecca yet?

quote:Originally posted by smallpox champion:

Have you gone to Mecca yet?

I think it's a requirement of every muslim to go at least once in their lifetime.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

Muslims who wish death upon America are not real Muslims. They are fanatics, and they will earn themselves a place in Hellfire. Killing innocents is strictly forbidden in Islam, and anyone who claims otherwise and pulls quotes from the Qur'an is an idiot.

quote:LONDON, April 20 (IranMania) - Trainee imams at an Islamic school in London with links to Iran told a British newspaper Thursday they are being taught fundamentalist texts that describe non-Muslims as "filth".

The medieval doctrines are taught at the Hawza Ilmiyya of London, a religious school, which is in the same building as the Islamic College for Advanced Studies (ICAS), a sister institution, The Times reported.

The two colleges share many of the same staff.

The Muslim students, who spoke to the daily on condition of anonymity, study their religious courses alongside a degree course in Islamic studies at ICAS, which is backed by Middlesex University, AFP noted.

Their spokesman said the highlighted text, written by 13th century scholar Muhaqqiq al-Hilli, was just one of a number of books that some students found "disturbing" and "very worrying", according to The Times.

"They are being exposed to very literalist interpretations of the Koran. These are interpretations that would not be recognised by 80 or 90% of Muslims, but they are being taught this at school," he told the daily.

"A lot of people in the Muslim community are very concerned about this. We need to urgently re-examine the kind of material that is being taught here and in other colleges in Britain," the spokesman said.

Mohammed Saeed Bahmanpour, a teacher at Hawza and ICAS, confirmed to the newspaper that the Hilli text was used, but denied it was taught as doctrine, AFP stated.

"We just read the text and translate for them, but as I said I do not deal with the book on purity. We have left that to the discretion of the teacher whether he wants to teach it or not," he said.

"The idea is not to teach them jurisprudence because most of the fatwas of Muhaqqiq are not actually conforming with the fatwa of our modern jurists. The idea is that they would be able to read classical texts and that is all."

As well as allegedly likening unbelievers to pigs and dogs, the Hilli text includes a chapter on jihad, laying out the conditions under which Muslims are supposed to fight Christians and Jews, The Times said.

The newspaper also reported that one of the managing trustees of Hawza and ICAS was Abdolhossein Moezi, an Iranian cleric and a personal representative of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme religious leader. Source (http://tinyurl.com/e64td)

See that ? Isn't this what I have been saying all along, while the rest of you deny it, and call me a bigot ?

Qur'anic LITERALISTS know that Muslims are supposed to participate in Jihad against us unbelieving "filth".

So, I guess you're not a literalist, Loc Dogg ?

Honestly, if this makes you happy, then I wish you peace and contentment. As long as you don't think it's ok to kill people simply because they disagree with your religious beliefs, I wish you the best Islam has to offer.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-20-2006).]

Loc Dogg, something I found rather...frightening:

quote:Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

quote:Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261:

Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you sh ould join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails, which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died.

Doesn't sound like they take kindly to people believing and disbelieving as they please. http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

fused: No, but I plan on getting another one. I lost mine at my Muslim school a few years ago. But for now I use 2 clean jumpers I keep at work and at home I use my dad's rug.

Elephantitis Man: 5 times a day, facing the Kabbah which is in Makkah. It would have been 50 times a day, but Prophet Muhammad (saw) asked Allah to make it 5 times, and Allah agreed.

What brought me back? A few things. As I drifted further away from my faith, I became more involved with typical Australian lifestyle. Drinking lots of alcohol, smoking lots of marijuana, partying, sexual encounters, etc. Typical Westernised life I guess. But I still had a bit of faith, and I knew what I was doing was wrong, but it was fun.

But one day I just sat at home instead of going out with friends and thought about what I was doing. What would it lead to? Does it benefit me spiritually? Does it make me a beter person in any way? Does this please Allah? I was giving in to my animalistic urges and wasn't very spiritual. I didn't want to be an animal. I wanted to be a human. It sounds weird, but that's how I see it. So I quit the drugs, partying and all that other shit.

But not just that. Lately I've been attending lectures hosted by Dr. Labani (sp). He has worked for the UN, he's been giving lectures for decades at universities and he has MANY degrees. He's a very intelligent man, and they way he talks about Islam is phenomenal. I've never met anyone who knows so much about Islam, and he also inspired me to go back to my faith. And the people that attend his lectures are beautiful. They are so peaceful and loving, these are the people that I want to spend time with. They don't want to drink, go out late at night and act like 'pigs and dogs' as some radicals put it. They merely want to live in peace, get along with everyone and serve Allah. That's pretty much what I want.

book em dano: Sort of. We have a thing called Rakija. And it's Bosnian tradition to get drunk all the time. A bottle of Rakija can still be used in the poorer areas as a barter item. Serbs have it too, they love it more than anyone else. It's insanely strong, but I was a beer man so I never touched it. My dad still knows how to make it though.

ohhi: Connecting and being at one with Allah actually.

Dre Crabbe: Non-Muslims can also go to Heaven. They still believe in God and they are nice people if they follow their faith. According to islam, Judaism and Christianity were sent by God, but the followers didn't like some of the laws in the holy books so they changed them. Then Allah sent Islam, and made sure that it wasn't changed. It hasn't been changed, people have tried to change the Qur'an but failed. Many people have made up fake Hadith. Islam will not change, but the followers will. And that is why Islam is falling apart.

smallpox champion: My parents went last year, but I've been busy with getting ready to move out, getting a new job and other important things. I have the money to go and do Hajj, so it is essential to go at least once. I'll most likely go next year, but if everything is working out good I might even go this year.

fused: Correct, but only if they can afford it. If they cannot, it isn't obligatory.

Digital_Saviour: This is a big problem in Islam right now. It's been a serious problem ever since people translated Arabic text to other languages, but in the past 100 years it's been getting worse.

The thing with the Arabic language is that it is very deep. One word can mean many, many things. It all depends on how it is used. For example, there is a verse in the Qur'an that says Muslim men should beat their wives. This is wrong, and any Muslim could figure it out. The word that was translated to 'beat' can mean more than 10 different things. Not only that, but Muslims follow two sets of laws. The first is the Qur'an. The second is the Sunnah, which is the sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad (saw). And Muhammad (saw) NEVER beat his wives. So if he didn't beat his wives, it's obvious that the words in the Qur'a were translated properly. Muhammad (saw) is the role model of all Muslims. Muslims should strive to behave like him, have manners like him and obey Allah like he did.

And with the Qur'an, each verse was sent at a time when questions were asked, when Muslims needed answers, or whenever Allah wanted to send down new laws. You've probably heard of the verse which tells Muslims not to be friends with Christians and Jews. This verse came at a time when EVERYONE hated Muslims. Jews, Christians, Arab Non-Muslims, Romans, they all wanted them dead. Just because they were Muslim. I think it would be wise to follow Allah's words, and not be friends with people that want to kill you. At that time, if Muslims prayed in public they were beaten and some were even kiled. Bilal was crushed between rocks because he wouldn't give up his faith. Others were tied naked to the hot desert sand and their bodies were savagely burned. For what? Because they follows this new religion, and it was nothing like the other religions in Arabia. Arabs believed in many different gods. They thought that this One God who had all this power was not right, and they didn't like it. They feared change, and they took action. The Jews as usual worked against the Muslims, but made treaties with them and stabbed them in the back in order to kill them. But it failed.

And Muhammad (saw) never waged jihad on people because they were filth. The Muslims always acted in self-defence. One verse in the Qur'an says "fight those who fight you". Referring to war. Like I said, everyone wanted the Muslims dead, so they were ordered by Allah to fight back and defend themselves. And they did it quite well, crushing their enemies even though they were outnumbered and outgunned. And even when they captured enemy soldiers, they were treated like family and were given the same or better quality food and housing.

I'm not a literalist. The Qur'an is very complex and poetic, it cannot be translated literally. And most Muslims know that when the Qur'an is translated into another language, it loses all meaning. The words in Arabic are beautiful and must be read in Arabic to understand and appreciate it completely. Plus there's the context part. You know, when Allah said don't be friends with the Christians and Jews, he didn't mean cut them off forever. it was just at that time. When the Islamic Empire ruled over Jerusalem, Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together and did business in peace. Or until the next Crusader army came along, burned the Jews alive in their synagogues and massacred the Mulsims as they prayed inside their mosques.

And thank you for the kind words. I don't wish death upon anybody. We need peace, there is too much death and destruction all over the world. Muhammad (saw) predicted it, and it's happening. Our world is turning to shit. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Elephantitis Man: Yes, unfortunately that is true. I'm quite lucky that I live in Australia, or else I would have got the death penalty. But Australian lifestyle is very tempting. If I was living in a real Muslim country (no real Muslim country exists right now), I would never have lost my faith. I'm not exactly sure why this law exists, I thought it was because of the treason behind the crime, but I'm not sure. I'll find out tonight and hit you back if you want the answer. And that is one of two things I don't like about Islam. The other is the prohibition of music. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Oh, I recommend reading The Idiot's Guide To Islam if you want to learn more. I bought it, it's awesome.

[This message has been edited by Loc Dogg (edited 04-21-2006).]

Sunni or Shi'ite?

And, what's up with the 12th Imam thing? Heard something about the Iranian president thinking the 12th Imam talks to him from Heaven or something.

I've never been too sure about this whole 3rd and 'true' religion started by a militant illterate. Any religion that promises me gay boys in heaven I find just a little bit too creepy.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

Dre Crabbe: Non-Muslims can also go to Heaven. They still believe in God and they are nice people if they follow their faith. According to islam, Judaism and Christianity were sent by God, but the followers didn't like some of the laws in the holy books so they changed them. Then Allah sent Islam, and made sure that it wasn't changed. It hasn't been changed, people have tried to change the Qur'an but failed. Many people have made up fake Hadith. Islam will not change, but the followers will. And that is why Islam is falling apart.



Aight, thanks for answering. But I was referring to atheists as well, you didn't mention that category. What about them?

quote:Originally posted by AeroDynamic:

Sunni or Shi'ite?

And, what's up with the 12th Imam thing? Heard something about the Iranian president thinking the 12th Imam talks to him from Heaven or something.

Most sects ins Islam are based on which Imam you believe was the last one, the last of the true descendants of Mohammad. I can't recall alot of the specifics, but I think there are major sects based on either 4, 7, or 12 Imams, and of course each views all the others as heretics.

Makes me want to go read up on the Nizari Ismaili's again.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

The other is the prohibition of music. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

They have a prohibition of ALL music? There aren't any traditional Muslim songs?

AeroDynamic: Sunni.

The 12th Imam is Imam Al-Mahdi. He's supposed to come down to Earth with Jesus to save the world from the Anti-Christ. Sunnis don't even believe he exists, since the 11th Imam died at age 28 and didn't have any offspring. But the views differ. I'll look into it.

KikoSanchez: Yes, Muhammad (saw) was a n army general, and he was illiterate, but the gay boys part I have no idea what you're talking about.

Dre Crabbe: Atheists can get into Heaven too. There is a story of a man who was a great sinner. He visited prostitutes, drank alcohol, gambled and was a bad man. But one day he found a piee of parchment with 'Allah' written on it. He took it home, cleaned it and kept it clean in his home. For that one small good deed, he was granted entry into Heaven. Allah is very forgiving and very merciful. Not many people are barred from Heaven.

Kadafi: Islamic music and poetry is fine, but I'm not allowed to listen to Iron Maiden, DragonForce, etc. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

See that ? Isn't this what I have been saying all along, while the rest of you deny it, and call me a bigot ?

I don't think you're a bigot, I think you're a standard regulation Christian hypocrite;

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the world. No, I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Mt 10.34

Congratulations. I have my issues with Islam, but it is always encouraging to see someone find a positive direction to their life.

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

I don't think you're a bigot, I think you're a standard regulation Christian hypocrite;

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the world. No, I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Mt 10.34

In the prophecy of Micah, we see a dialogue between God and Micah. Chapter six of Micah is key to this dialogue because God is setting forth an accusation or "controversy" with the children of Israel and calling for their repentance. Scholars believe that in chapter seven, Micah is speaking on behalf of the faithful congregation within the midst of a rebellious people. Verses 1-6 of Micah chapter six are a description of the wickedness that surrounds the faithful of God. Verses 7-13 are a confession of sin on the part of this congregation and an acceptance of the punishment that the Lord is going to mete out. This style of writing is commonly found in the Old Testament especially in the Psalms. The Psalmist will often describe the characters and attributes of the wicked and then state what the faithful's response to wickedness should be. Psalm 2 is an excellent example of this type of comparison and contrast. So having these thoughts in mind, verse 6 is a description of how wicked people are going to act in the presence of the faithful. How will they act? The wicked son will dishonor the father. The wicked daughter will rise up against her mother. The wicked daughter-in-law will do the same against her mother-in-law. In essence, when it comes to wicked people, "a man's enemies are the men of his own house."

Now, how does this apply to Matthew 10:34-36? If you go back all the way to the beginning of the chapter you will notice that this chapter concerns the sending of the disciples on the limited commission. The entire chapter is devoted to instruction on what the disciples should expect when they go out into the world and preach the gospel to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" (verse 6). There are two types of instruction given to the disciples in this chapter. First there is positive instruction as to what they are to do on the limited commission. This comprises verses 5-15. Then there are various and sundry warnings given to the disciples about what they could expect from the unbelievers. This comprises verses 16-42. Chapter 11 verse 1 clearly indicates that this entire section of scripture was given as instruction for this limited commission because it gives this conclusion to the commission in these words: "When Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples."

The section of scripture with which we are concerned falls within the sundry warnings that Jesus is giving to his disciples regarding the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus words to them are basically this: Don't expect that you will receive a warm welcome out of the unfaithful. When you preach the gospel, people are going to become your enemies. In this sense, Jesus' came to bring a sword.** The warning of Micah describing the unfaithful holds true here. Even among families, there will be division. This is the typical response of the unfaithful. So Micah's description of the unfaithful apply to the situation where disciples would be going into the very houses of the unfaithful to preach the gospel, and they were to be aware as to how the unfaithful would respond to this preaching. So in essence, that is the reason Jesus quotes from Micah.

One further question presents itself. What applicability does this passage have, if any, today? While the passage specifically addressed what the twelve disciples were to do on the limited commission, we can learn from both Micah and from this passage what the attitude of the unfaithful will be. When it comes to preaching the gospel, the unfaithful will not want anything to do with it. They will oppose it. They will reject it. They will even sever family ties over it if they disapprove of it. It is our responsibility, however, to preach the gospel regardless of what kind of problems that may cause. So this passage serves as a warning to us as well regarding what kind of attitudes we should expect from some people in regard to the preaching and teaching of the truth. We should also note that Jesus mentions that some will respond in a positive way to the gospel. Notice verses 40-42, "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." Source (http://tinyurl.com/8zb3s)

** The Word of God is often referred to as a double-edged sword.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-25-2006).]

quote:This is a big problem in Islam right now. It's been a serious problem ever since people translated Arabic text to other languages, but in the past 100 years it's been getting worse.

The thing with the Arabic language is that it is very deep. One word can mean many, many things. It all depends on how it is used. For example, there is a verse in the Qur'an that says Muslim men should beat their wives. This is wrong, and any Muslim could figure it out. The word that was translated to 'beat' can mean more than 10 different things. Not only that, but Muslims follow two sets of laws. The first is the Qur'an. The second is the Sunnah, which is the sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad (saw). And Muhammad (saw) NEVER beat his wives. So if he didn't beat his wives, it's obvious that the words in the Qur'a were translated properly. Muhammad (saw) is the role model of all Muslims. Muslims should strive to behave like him, have manners like him and obey Allah like he did.

How do you know Muhammed didn't beat his wives ? This is not a loaded question. I am curious as to how you came to that assessment.

quote:And with the Qur'an, each verse was sent at a time when questions were asked, when Muslims needed answers, or whenever Allah wanted to send down new laws. You've probably heard of the verse which tells Muslims not to be friends with Christians and Jews. This verse came at a time when EVERYONE hated Muslims. Jews, Christians, Arab Non-Muslims, Romans, they all wanted them dead. Just because they were Muslim. I think it would be wise to follow Allah's words, and not be friends with people that want to kill you. At that time, if Muslims prayed in public they were beaten and some were even kiled. Bilal was crushed between rocks because he wouldn't give up his faith. Others were tied naked to the hot desert sand and their bodies were savagely burned. For what? Because they follows this new religion, and it was nothing like the other religions in Arabia. Arabs believed in many different gods. They thought that this One God who had all this power was not right, and they didn't like it. They feared change, and they took action. The Jews as usual worked against the Muslims, but made treaties with them and stabbed them in the back in order to kill them. But it failed.

Are you saying that the Qur'an cannot be applied to modern times ?

That is what it sounds like you are saying, because you claim that dissention between Muslims and anyone who doesn't subscribe to it was only applicable to the period in which it was written, based on current events.

If that is the case, doesn't that worry you ?

quote:And Muhammad (saw) never waged jihad on people because they were filth. The Muslims always acted in self-defence. One verse in the Qur'an says "fight those who fight you". Referring to war. Like I said, everyone wanted the Muslims dead, so they were ordered by Allah to fight back and defend themselves. And they did it quite well, crushing their enemies even though they were outnumbered and outgunned. And even when they captured enemy soldiers, they were treated like family and were given the same or better quality food and housing.

Why do you think that ? I would like to review your sources.

quote:I'm not a literalist.

You may not be, but does the Qur'an command you to be ?

quote:The Qur'an is very complex and poetic, it cannot be translated literally. And most Muslims know that when the Qur'an is translated into another language, it loses all meaning. The words in Arabic are beautiful and must be read in Arabic to understand and appreciate it completely. Plus there's the context part. You know, when Allah said don't be friends with the Christians and Jews, he didn't mean cut them off forever. it was just at that time. When the Islamic Empire ruled over Jerusalem, Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together and did business in peace. Or until the next Crusader army came along, burned the Jews alive in their synagogues and massacred the Mulsims as they prayed inside their mosques.

If the Qur'an is not to be taken literally, and every Arabic word can mean 10 different things, how then can you navigate through it with any kind of certainty ?

And yes, I am very familiar with context. Many on this forum would do well to apply the context to their irrational conclusions of Biblical scripture. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

My grandpa distilled rakija when he was still alive, my uncle does it to this day. But my uncle is an idiot.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

How do you know Muhammed didn't beat his wives ? This is not a loaded question. I am curious as to how you came to that assessment.

The burden of proof is on the accuser. Prove that he did.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Are you saying that the Qur'an cannot be applied to modern times ?

That is what it sounds like you are saying, because you claim that dissention between Muslims and anyone who doesn't subscribe to it was only applicable to the period in which it was written, based on current events.

If that is the case, doesn't that worry you ?

Do you condone stoning people to death? There are dozens and dozens of commandments in the bible that people don't follow because they simply don't apply to modern times.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Why do you think that ? I would like to review your sources.

When the Christians invaded Isreal, they slaughtered muslims and Jews. The Muslims conquered Spain and held it for 800 years. The Spanish were allowed to keep their language and were never forced to convert to Islam, and Spain never went through the dark part of the middle ages, and it did not recieve the blunt of the Bubonic plague epidemic because of the cleanliness of the Muslims. This is common knowledge so I won't post a link, but if you have any doubs look it up on wikipidia or Encyclopedia Britannica.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If the Qur'an is not to be taken literally, and every Arabic word can mean 10 different things, how then can you navigate through it with any kind of certainty ?

Faith. Ever heard of that? I applaud Imams and their ways of thinking. Rather than putting their Quran against evolutionary science, which it holds no grounds against, they concern themselves more with the metaphorical, symbolic, and figurative interpretations. Faith is what it's about. Your people(dont cry generalization, everyone here knows you enough that I don't have to bother with explaining your point of view) try to twist science to shove your bible down people's throats. Creationists are a contradiction to theirfaith, because rather than trying to disprove hundreds of years of collected facts, you should simply accept it as a miracle and not interfere with the scientific method.



Yes, this post was slightly personal, but that's only because it frustrates me to see you take an agnostic point of view, and use questions that you yourself have ignored before, in order to try and falsify Islam when it's no better or worse than your own faith.

And to Loc Dogg, congratulations. You're embracing religion for what it really is.





[This message has been edited by Zay (edited 04-26-2006).]

Zay pretty much answered everything pretty well. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Ooh and Elephantitis Man, I got the answer to your question...

"No, that is wrong. When Muhammad (saw) gave that order, Muslims who converted to other religions or denounced Islam joined the enemy. So you can kill them if they will try to kill you. But if they just stop being a Muslim and do not pose a threat to the Muslims, nobody can touch him."

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

In the prophecy of Micah, we see a dialogue between God and Micah. Chapter six of Micah is key to this dialogue because God is setting forth an accusation or "controversy" with the children of Israel and calling for their repentance. Scholars believe that in chapter seven, Micah is speaking on behalf of the faithful congregation within the midst of a rebellious people. Verses 1-6 of Micah chapter six are a description of the wickedness that surrounds the faithful of God. Verses 7-13 are a confession of sin on the part of this congregation and an acceptance of the punishment that the Lord is going to mete out. This style of writing is commonly found in the Old Testament especially in the Psalms. The Psalmist will often describe the characters and attributes of the wicked and then state what the faithful's response to wickedness should be. Psalm 2 is an excellent example of this type of comparison and contrast. So having these thoughts in mind, verse 6 is a description of how wicked people are going to act in the presence of the faithful. How will they act? The wicked son will dishonor the father. The wicked daughter will rise up against her mother. The wicked daughter-in-law will do the same against her mother-in-law. In essence, when it comes to wicked people, "a man's enemies are the men of his own house."

Now, how does this apply to Matthew 10:34-36? If you go back all the way to the beginning of the chapter you will notice that this chapter concerns the sending of the disciples on the limited commission. The entire chapter is devoted to instruction on what the disciples should expect when they go out into the world and preach the gospel to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" (verse 6). There are two types of instruction given to the disciples in this chapter. First there is positive instruction as to what they are to do on the limited commission. This comprises verses 5-15. Then there are various and sundry warnings given to the disciples about what they could expect from the unbelievers. This comprises verses 16-42. Chapter 11 verse 1 clearly indicates that this entire section of scripture was given as instruction for this limited commission because it gives this conclusion to the commission in these words: "When Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples."

The section of scripture with which we are concerned falls within the sundry warnings that Jesus is giving to his disciples regarding the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus words to them are basically this: Don't expect that you will receive a warm welcome out of the unfaithful. When you preach the gospel, people are going to become your enemies. In this sense, Jesus' came to bring a sword.** The warning of Micah describing the unfaithful holds true here. Even among families, there will be division. This is the typical response of the unfaithful. So Micah's description of the unfaithful apply to the situation where disciples would be going into the very houses of the unfaithful to preach the gospel, and they were to be aware as to how the unfaithful would respond to this preaching. So in essence, that is the reason Jesus quotes from Micah.

One further question presents itself. What applicability does this passage have, if any, today? While the passage specifically addressed what the twelve disciples were to do on the limited commission, we can learn from both Micah and from this passage what the attitude of the unfaithful will be. When it comes to preaching the gospel, the unfaithful will not want anything to do with it. They will oppose it. They will reject it. They will even sever family ties over it if they disapprove of it. It is our responsibility, however, to preach the gospel regardless of what kind of problems that may cause. So this passage serves as a warning to us as well regarding what kind of attitudes we should expect from some people in regard to the preaching and teaching of the truth. We should also note that Jesus mentions that some will respond in a positive way to the gospel. Notice verses 40-42, "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." Source (http://tinyurl.com/8zb3s)

** The Word of God is often referred to as a double-edged sword.



The point you dumb bitch is that the literal interpretation of Christian text can be used to justify violence just as it can in Islam.

Secondly you are a member of the most blood stained faith on the planet, so where the fuck do you get off telling people how violent others are?

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Congratulations. I have my issues with Islam, but it is always encouraging to see someone find a positive direction to their life.

My sentiments exactly.

Congrats.

quote:



The 12th Imam is Imam Al-Mahdi. He's supposed to come down to Earth with Jesus to save the world from the Anti-Christ. Sunnis don't even believe he exists, since the 11th Imam died at age 28 and didn't have any offspring. But the views differ. I'll look into it.



Salam alaicom i'm muslim and sunni too

but excuse me to correct you the Mehdi exists in the Sunni tradition Shiites picked up the personnage and added many lies

here is the exact story in some hadiths Prophets Mohamed SAW said that a man from his household will come at the end of times to fill earth with justice as it was filled with injustice

the Shiites believes that muslim leaders should be from the descendent of Mohammed cousin ALI and his wife (daughter of Mohamed Fatima) well they kept following the Ali descendence (fake ones) you know Hussein al bakir al kadim etc.... i don't recall their exact names but at the 11th imam they faced a problem their chosen imam died without leaving a son so they invented the Shia mehdi they say that the 11th imam left a wife pregnant and that the boy is living hidden and he will apear toward the end of times (an imortal Mehdi like in highlander lol) of course many of the shia suposed imams are fake

we sunnis believe that the mehdi will apear but he will be a normal human being who will be born in the futur

but i agree many sunnis don't know this i used to ignore these informations some years ago i guess this has to do with the way of thinking of sunnis

sunnis think that we should work to change our selves because no one knows when the mehdi will come while shias are waiting for him until now

more infos http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter2/2.html

[This message has been edited by princecharmant1980 (edited 04-26-2006).]

La ilaha il Allah!

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:



Kadafi: Islamic music and poetry is fine, but I'm not allowed to listen to Iron Maiden, DragonForce, etc.

Hey loc, I don't know if you like hip hop but One be lo (one man army), and brother ali are two very dope mc's who are muslims.

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

The point you dumb bitch is that the literal interpretation of Christian text can be used to justify violence just as it can in Islam.

Secondly you are a member of the most blood stained faith on the planet, so where the fuck do you get off telling people how violent others are?

No it can't, "you dumb bitch". http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

CONTEXT IS KEY. There is no need to interpret. The literal form doesn't promote violence amongst Christians. The Old Testament violence revolved around the Jews. The inclusion of their violence in the Old Testament accounts are both historical and spiritual in reference.

Christians are not responsible for the blood shed by the Catholics. They are historically one of the most abhorrent religions of the world at large. The blood they shed is on THEIR heads, not Christ. You can't clump them together, because they are not synonymous with each other.

Educate yourself.

quote:Originally posted by great_sage=heaven:

Hey loc, I don't know if you like hip hop but One be lo (one man army), and brother ali are two very dope mc's who are muslims.

Oh yeah I love my rap too. I was really into Soldiers Of Allah a while ago. I might have to get their album again. And Hakim.

aaaaaaaaaaa nar nar nar......

quote:The burden of proof is on the accuser. Prove that he did.

Um, I am asking him a question. He made a claim about Muhammed, and I am asking him how he knows that. If he can't answer, fine.

quote:Do you condone stoning people to death? There are dozens and dozens of commandments in the bible that people don't follow because they simply don't apply to modern times.

Actually, it has nothing to do with modern times.

The stonings of the Old Testament were commandments for Jews. I am not obligated to defend why the Jews had to do what they had to do, because I am not a Jew.

You are asking me, and I am a Christian. Christians were NEVER commanded to stone people. Ever.

quote:When the Christians invaded Isreal, they slaughtered muslims and Jews. The Muslims conquered Spain and held it for 800 years. The Spanish were allowed to keep their language and were never forced to convert to Islam, and Spain never went through the dark part of the middle ages, and it did not recieve the blunt of the Bubonic plague epidemic because of the cleanliness of the Muslims. This is common knowledge so I won't post a link, but if you have any doubs look it up on wikipidia or Encyclopedia Britannica.

I see that this is a common MUSLIM belief of historical events, but I can't seem to find anything on Christians murdering Muslims and Jews.

I am not doubting the information (yet) but I would like a leaping off point. If you cannot be more specific (names of events like wars or crusades), then I will just discount your argument as nothing more than opine conjecture.

quote:Faith.

How can you have faith in something that is ever changing ? What kind of Allah can't control His own teachings ? Did He not realize what would happen in the future, and therefore didn't offer any teachings that were relevant throughout the ages ?

quote:Ever heard of that? I applaud Imams and their ways of thinking. Rather than putting their Quran against evolutionary science, which it holds no grounds against, they concern themselves more with the metaphorical, symbolic, and figurative interpretations.

Translation: They make it up as they go. That's a very comforting thought !

quote:Faith is what it's about. Your people(dont cry generalization, everyone here knows you enough that I don't have to bother with explaining your point of view) try to twist science to shove your bible down people's throats.

Can you disprove even ONE thing from the Institute for Creation Research (http://tinyurl.com/g986p) ?

If not, you should reconsider making such fallacious claims.

quote:Creationists are a contradiction to theirfaith, because rather than trying to disprove hundreds of years of collected facts, you should simply accept it as a miracle and not interfere with the scientific method.

God's miracles are all around us. It is moronic to say that we shouldn't investigate the miracle of life, and give credit where it's due.

If YOU think it's ok to be ignorant of your origins, that's YOUR problem. It's certainly not a negative thing for Christians to seek understanding.

quote:Yes, this post was slightly personal, but that's only because it frustrates me to see you take an agnostic point of view, and use questions that you yourself have ignored before, in order to try and falsify Islam when it's no better or worse than your own faith.

You took personal that which was not meant to be an insult. So, congratulations on the knee-jerk reaction.

I am studying Islam, and I am interested in Loc Dogg's views. I asked the questions, because I am truly interested.

I haven't ignored these same questions in regards to Christianity. I answer them, and quite well.

quote:And to Loc Dogg, congratulations. You're embracing religion for what it really is.

"What it really is" seems to be defined by YOU, not Islam. I don't care what Zay thinks Islam is, I care about what Islam is, according to Islam. I am hoping that Loc Dogg will be able to provide more educated, and less emotional, answers to my questions.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-27-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

Zay pretty much answered everything pretty well. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Really ? He isn't going to win any converts that way.

I am asking real questions. If you cannot defend your faith using the Qur'an, I wonder at how you can bring yourself to believe in the first place.

Explain it to me. I am genuinely interested.

Hey Loc Dog, do you have msn? I would be interested in talking to you about Islam. I'm too a Muslim who is kind of straying away from Islam...

islam is fake

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Saviour:

How do you know Muhammed didn't beat his wives ? This is not a loaded question. I am curious as to how you came to that assessment.

It's a recorded historical fact.

"Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) ordered Muslim husbands to accept their wives as they are, treat them kindly and equally; according to the following “hadith” narrated by Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:

"I went to the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food as what you have for yourself, and clothe them as you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them."

He (saw) practiced hat he preached. He didn't beat his wives.

quote:Are you saying that the Qur'an cannot be applied to modern times ?

That is what it sounds like you are saying, because you claim that dissention between Muslims and anyone who doesn't subscribe to it was only applicable to the period in which it was written, based on current events.

If that is the case, doesn't that worry you?

It can be applied to modern times. Particular verses were connected to EVENTS that happened in the past. These events can happen again. There are people that hate Muslims right now, just like before. So, I won't be friends with them.

quote:Why do you think that ? I would like to review your sources.

Think that? I KNOW that. it's recorded history, do you know anything about Islamic history? I have a book about The Battles Of Prophet Muhammad (saw) which talks a lot about the acomplishments made by him (saw) and the Sahabah. You can easily Google it, but I'll help you out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_as_a_warrior

quote:You may not be, but does the Qur'an command you to be ?

Well it does. My misunderstanding of the words 'literalist' and 'literal' is responsible for that. My mistake http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif). When I speak about taking things literally, I meant to say that these people who are reading the Qur'an and obeying their commandments blindly are fools. There is more to the Qur'an than just reading it.

If the Qur'an is not to be taken literally, and every Arabic word can mean 10 different things, how then can you navigate through it with any kind of certainty ?

And yes, I am very familiar with context. Many on this forum would do well to apply the context to their irrational conclusions of Biblical scripture.

[/b]

Again, my mistake. It should be taken literally, but keeping in mind the history behind it and to what events some verses are connected to. And the Sunnah, that is the 2nd most important thing.

I do not criticise or attack Christianity or any other beliefs, unlike others.

Chinese food52: kerpal_g@hotmail.com

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No it can't, "you dumb bitch". http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

CONTEXT IS KEY. There is no need to interpret. The literal form doesn't promote violence amongst Christians. The Old Testament violence revolved around the Jews. The inclusion of their violence in the Old Testament accounts are both historical and spiritual in reference.

Christians are not responsible for the blood shed by the Catholics. They are historically one of the most abhorrent religions of the world at large. The blood they shed is on THEIR heads, not Christ. You can't clump them together, because they are not synonymous with each other.

Educate yourself.

I see so "Christians" can distant themselves from Catholics, yet Muslims can't distance themselves from literalist extremists. Yet another fine piece of "Christian" hypocrasy.

And according to you Jesus can wash his hands of the consequences of his teachings!?

There must be some knockout get-out clause woven into the New Testament that I've missed. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

I see so "Christians" can distant themselves from Catholics, yet Muslims can't distance themselves from literalist extremists. Yet another fine piece of "Christian" hypocrasy.

Good point, but if they have distanced themselves, one wonders why there has not been a public split. Protestants and Catholics are two distinct and separate groups.

Also, if they are distancing themselves from extremists, why don't all the moderate Muslims come out and make a public condemnation of the extremists?

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Good point, but if they have distanced themselves, one wonders why there has not been a public split. Protestants and Catholics are two distinct and separate groups.

Also, if they are distancing themselves from extremists, why don't all the moderate Muslims come out and make a public condemnation of the extremists?

for the same reason moderate jews didn't condemn this :

Rabbi Ovadia Yossef in occupied palestine said :" ishamelites are snakes"

Loc, I am very happy to see you and shipqtar defend and awnser to questions on Islam so well. I'm not a muslim, but I spent the first quarter of my life in Egypt living with Muslims as friends, and it's almost like your defending them. So really man, it might sound cheezy, but it means alot to me.

Thank you Loc dog and thank you shipqtar.

"How can you have faith in something that is ever changing ? What kind of Allah can't control His own teachings ? Did He not realize what would happen in the future, and therefore didn't offer any teachings that were relevant throughout the ages ?"

If the church didnt have ever changing beliefs it would not have split.

Secondly, the church has been proven wrong before, I wouldn't count on it again. The earth isn't the center of the universe, and the earth isn't flat. The church brutally rejected people who knew this.

Also, more importantly, Loc Dogg, peace and acceptance are the key to life, its what I believe is the original goal of all religion. I wish there were more people like you.

Good luck with your new faith and please maintain your beliefs in peace, no matter how crazy times ahead are.

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

for the same reason moderate jews didn't condemn this :

Rabbi Ovadia Yossef in occupied palestine said :" ishamelites are snakes"

...and the reason is?

Congrats.

I'm interested in becoming a Muslim. I bought a Koran last year and was intrigued by it. Loc, I added you to MSN.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

...and the reason is?

guess

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

guess

So you have no answer, then. Good job.

hahaha your going to hell and im going to heaven!!!

Christians pwn u!

quote:Originally posted by GatorWarrior:

hahaha your going to hell and im going to heaven!!!

Christians pwn u!

You poor fool.

quote:Originally posted by TheKillerMonkey:

Real Muslim or that Sufi crap?

Sufism pwns dude.

No semite crap there.

I'm not taking a side here, I just have an interest in history.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I see that this is a common MUSLIM belief of historical events, but I can't seem to find anything on Christians murdering Muslims and Jews.

I am not doubting the information (yet) but I would like a leaping off point. If you cannot be more specific (names of events like wars or crusades), then I will just discount your argument as nothing more than opine conjecture.

In the meantime, the nobility of Europe raised an army of thousands that made its way through various routes and with much mishap to Constantinople. Unfortunately, many of these crusaders could not wait until they met the Muslims on the field of battle to demonstrate their religious zeal. As they progressed through Europe many Jewish communities became the target of their wrath and thousands were massacred.

Entering the city, our pilgrims pursued and killed the Saracens up to the temple of Solomon. There the Saracens assembled and resisted fiercely all day, so that the whole temple flowed with their blood. At last the pagans were overcome and our men seized many men and women in the temple, killing them or keeping them alive as they saw fit.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/crusades.htm

The Franks, on reaching the middle of the plain that stretches between this hill and that of Keisan, close to which place the sultan's advanced guard had drawn back, ordered all the Musulman prisoners, whose martyrdom God had decreed for this day, to be brought before him. They numbered more than three thousand and were all bound with ropes. The Franks then flung themselves upon them all at once and massacred them with sword and lance in cold blood.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/lionheart.htm

Though it isn't like Islam's hands are all that bloodless. For example:

In other parts of Asia and Europe, the conquered nations quickly opted for conversion to Islam rather than death. But in India, because of the staunch resistance of the 4000 year old Hindu faith, the Muslim conquests were for the Hindus a pure struggle between life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and their populations massacred. Each successive campaign brought hundreds of thousands of victims and similar numbers were deported as slaves. Every new invader made often literally his hill of Hindu skulls. Thus the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000, was followed by the annihilation of the entire Hindu population there; indeed, the region is still called Hindu Kush, 'Hindu slaughter'. The Bahmani sultans in central India, made it a rule to kill 100.000 Hindus a year. In 1399, Teimur killed 100.000 Hindus IN A SINGLE DAY, and many more on other occasions. Koenraad Elst quotes Professor K.S. Lal's "Growth of Muslim population in India", who writes that according to his calculations, the Hindu population decreased by 8O MILLION between the year 1000 and 1525. INDEED PROBABLY THE BIGGEST HOLOCAUST IN THE WHOLE WORLD HISTORY. (Negat.34)

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/5142/negislamindia.html

Loc Dogg, or any Muslim, so Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah? As I understand it, the only time that Messiah is brought up in the Qur'an is in reference to Jesus of Nazereth.

Can muslims smoke pot and drink or is it like the Christian faith where its a sin but everyone does it anywayS?

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

TheKillerMonkey: Real Muslim.

Elephantitis Man: Yep. The higher the level, the better it is.

? Who told you that? Paradise in the Qur'an goes by the name Junuth, not Samawa which means heavens, or sky. The Qur'an is making reference to the layers of the atmosphere, right after it says that likewise the earth has crusts in layers. Scientifically accurate. Loc Dogg I wanna talk to you on msn, caligulaoctavius@hotmail.com

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Can muslims smoke pot and drink or is it like the Christian faith where its a sin but everyone does it anywayS?

Alcohol and Intoxicants are banned in the Qur'an. The Qur'an explains that alcohol has some utility for mankind but much more harm therefor not to do it. Same with Gambling and intoxicants.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

See that ? Isn't this what I have been saying all along, while the rest of you deny it, and call me a bigot ?

Qur'anic LITERALISTS know that Muslims are supposed to participate in Jihad against us unbelieving "filth".

So, I guess you're not a literalist, Loc Dogg ?

Honestly, if this makes you happy, then I wish you peace and contentment. As long as you don't think it's ok to kill people simply because they disagree with your religious beliefs, I wish you the best Islam has to offer.



Despite what the article says, they are not Qur'anic LITERALISTS, but instead they are following Schools of Thought, Certain Imams, and books called Hadith.

The Qur'an does not allow muslims to make war on all disbelievers. Jihad means to strive in the cause of God with your being, and your wealth, to do good, help the poor, etc. You have the right to kill in direct self defense of your life or in a time of open war on the battlefield with incoming enemies who are out to kill you. In times of peace one is supposed to maintain peace, if a treaty is offered one is supposed to take it always. The Qur'an specifies that muslims are not to make pre emptive attacks, break peace, or start wars. Just because some people for political and financial reasons make war and put religion as a scapegoat doesn't mean the religion promotes it. They call them FUNDAMENTALISTS when they are not following the FUNDAMENTALS of the Qur'an. The Qur'an says that in a time of peace, if they are disbelievers, and don't heed the warning, leave them alone saying "Your way to you, my way to me." You are not allowed, and Can not force religion into people's hearts. Not only is it prohibited, its impossible. If you say it to the disbelievers or not, they still won't believe.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:



[b]Elephantitis Man: 5 times a day, facing the Kabbah which is in Makkah. It would have been 50 times a day, but Prophet Muhammad (saw) asked Allah to make it 5 times, and Allah agreed.

I didn't want to be an animal. I wanted to be a human. It sounds weird, but that's how I see it. So I quit the drugs, partying and all that other shit.

book em dano: Sort of. We have a thing called Rakija. And it's Bosnian tradition to get drunk all the time. A bottle of Rakija can still be used in the poorer areas as a barter item.

Dre Crabbe: Non-Muslims can also go to Heaven. They still believe in God and they are nice people if they follow their faith. According to islam, Judaism and Christianity were sent by God, but the followers didn't like some of the laws in the holy books so they changed them.

For example, there is a verse in the Qur'an that says Muslim men should beat their wives.

I'm not a literalist. The Qur'an is very complex and poetic, it cannot be translated literally. And most Muslims know that when the Qur'an is translated into another language, it loses all meaning.

[

Firstly, and I say this with the most SINCERE Intentions, the story about the prophet correcting God and changing revelation is a Blasphemy and a CLEAR untruth. There is no such negotiation and GOD Knows all. The Qur'an clearly states the 5 various times throughout the text, there was NO negotiation and God KNOWS the correct amount to give, no negotiations, the story is an open blasphemy and DO NOT believe it or follow it, its sinful and not in the Qur'an.

Animals don't even do drugs or drink alcohol, self destructive people do. So even ANIMALS (who are also innocent/muslims) are better than people who rebel against themselves and God.

If Rakija is an intoxicant or alcohol it is forbidden as the Qur'an CLEARLY says that there is GREAT SIN in Alcohol.

Non Muslims can NOT go to heaven. It says that weither they are a Christian, A Jew, A Sabian, or a Magian, IF THEY BELIEVE IN ALLAH, THE MESSAGE (The Qur'an), THE LAST DAY (and more stuff) and do GOOD, then they will achieve paradise. A person who blasphemies and says God has a Son or that the Qur'an is a lie, or doesn't believe or follow the final Message will not be permitted in heaven. Before Islam there was Islam. Isa, Son of Marium did not create christianity, the book he brought was known as the Injeel, he brought it to the B'Nei Israel to correct what they had changed in Musa's Taurath. The Injeel is not the Gospel, it is a book that no longer exists.

The Verse in the Qur'an that uses the word Beat is an inaccurate translation, it never says that, rather it says if your wife doesn't want to do anything, then leave her alone and sleep seperately if you must, and then if you want to, try to persuade her, and if she still doesnt want to ,respect that, and if she wants to then you are permitted to sex her. The word durb(I think) which means sex is translated as Beat. The Beating makes no sense in reference to what the revelation is talking about. The Qur'an in other revelations clearly states you are NOT ALLOWED TO RAISE YOUR HAND TO HIT ANYONE, you can't even shout or swear or anything (unless in self defense).

The Qur'an demands that you are a LITERALIST. The Qur'an is a LITERAL message from God. It clearly states what is Literal and what is Alagory or Metaphor and then it explains those metaphors. What they call Fundamentalists are NOT following the Qur'an or its fundamentals, nor are they taking it LITERALLY.