I think this happened last year, the Red Lake Highschool massacre. This is an interesting account of what happened in one of the classrooms the shooter entered, and I feel, a testament of the true power of prayer.

quote:Imagine that you are a high school English teacher. You are standing at the front of the classroom working through the day's lesson. Perhaps you and your students are studying verb conjugation, or analyzing one of Shakespeare's plays. It is another normal day in the American education system, and you have a lot of material to cover.

Then the sound fills your classroom. Gunshots. And screaming. A gunman has entered the school and is shooting at people as he makes his way down the hallway toward your classroom.

What would you do?

If you were English teacher Neva Rogers at Red Lake high school, you would take immediate action. You would shut off the lights in the classroom. You would close and lock the classroom door. You would tell your students to crouch in a corner of the classroom to get out of harm's way. Then you would stand in the middle of the room and begin praying to God. According to student witnesses, Ms. Rogers prayed, "God be with us. God help us."

The gunman walks to Neva Rogers' classroom door and finds it locked. He shoots out the glass panel next to the door and it explodes in a shower of tiny crystalline fragments. The gunman reaches in through the hole he has created, unlocks the door and shoves it out of the way to enter the classroom. Dressed completely in black and measuring six feet tall, he is a huge, hulking apparition.

He crosses the threshold of the classroom and looks at Ms. Rogers as she prays. He is armed with a massive 12-guage shotgun. He raises the gun with both hands so it is pointing straight at Rogers' head.

What should God do?

What do you think God should do in a situation like this? Step back for a moment and look at this from God's perspective. God is sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven. God is all-knowing, so he is certainly watching Red Lake high school as events unfold. He hears Neva Rogers' prayers, and sees the gunman pointing the shotgun at her head. Jesus has promised that God will help, and Jesus is sitting at God's right hand.

Clearly a line has been drawn. On one side of the line is pure evil -- a sixteen-year-old who is obviously insane. On the other side is a deeply devoted, 62-year-old woman of unbending faith in God. This is a showdown between good and evil if there ever was one.

Think of all of the possibilities that an all-powerful God has at his disposal. Perhaps the easiest thing would be to strike the gunman with a freak heart attack, aneurism or stroke right then and there. Hundreds of people die of heart attacks in the United States every day, so if God struck him with a heart attack it would be completely undetectable. Non-believers would chalk it up to coincidence, but God's followers would understand what really happened.

If God has a desire to be a bit more spectacular, there are other possibilities. For example, he could cause an earthquake. He could send an angel to stand between the gunman and the teacher and deflect the bullets. A meteor could crash through the ceiling, or a bolt of lightning, and strike the gunman dead. Or God could cause a police officer to burst into Ms. Rogers' classroom just at this moment and kill the gunman on the spot. There are a million things that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God could do to answer Neva Rogers' prayers.

The gunman looks directly at Neva Rogers with his 12-gauge shotgun pointed at her skull. He pulls the trigger. Nothing happens. There is a click, but the gun does not fire. It seems like a miracle. Surely it is the hand of God.

Unfortunately, the gunman has a backup weapon and he does not even hesitate. He pulls out a pistol. He points the pistol at Ms. Rogers' head as she prays and squeezes the trigger. The pistol performs according to its specifications. He shoots Neva Rogers three times in the head and then once in the face for good measure. She dies instantly, falling into a pool of her own blood on the floor right in front of her stunned students.

According to Time magazine, what the gunman does next is remarkable. He aims his gun at one of Ms. Rogers' students in the corner and asks, "Do you believe in God?" By doing this, the gunman recreates a scene from the shootings at Columbine. At Columbine the student answered, "Yes" to this question and was shot to death. At Red Lake the student answers, "No." The gunman spares that student's life and starts shooting other students.

A total of ten people died on that day at Red Lake before the gunman took his own life.

Source, and further reading. (http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god1.htm)

Question to Christians: Why?

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 04-20-2006).]

Why not?

If you are really questioning to gain insight to the religion you have lost, it has worked its job.

From her perspective, you cannot truely threaten a Christian with death. To kill a Christian is to gain.

From others perspective (the lost), they ask why someone would disregard safety of their own life only to be cut down. This presents a unique opportunity to share the peace we have with those unbelievers who are genuinely curious.







I dont mean to derail this thread, but I remember that in your thread where you told us that you have lost faith in Christianity, they you noted a discrepency between Luke and Matthew (i think...) on the day Jesus rose from the dead; one supposedly on Sunday and the other on Monday.

Remember that Luke is not Jewish. The first of the week is diferent between Romans of the time and orthodox Jews.

I dont think I mangled that too badly....

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Why not?

John 14:12-14

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Mark 11:24

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

She believed. She prayed for protection. From the perspective of many (including myself), she was promised protection if she prayed for it (according to scripture), and was let down.

------

And, fueling the thread derailment, regardless of whether Luke was or wasn't Jewish, Jesus lived while Judea was under Roman jurisdiction. Julius Caesar mandated the Julian Calendar over Rome 40 years before Jesus was even born, meaning it was extremely likely the week structure used by the Julian calendar was the one referenced by all the apostles.

The same Julian calendar was in use when Constantine declared Sunday (the first day of the week in the Julian calendar, as in the Gregorian), the official day of 'religious observance' in the early 4th century.

But that's way off topic. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

John 14:12-14

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Mark 11:24

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

She believed. She prayed for protection. From the perspective of many (including myself), she was promised protection if she prayed for it (according to scripture), and was let down.



You forget that the verse really only applies if its within God's will. I can pray for a Ferrari all I want, but unless I am supposed to get one, I won't.

God isn't a vending machine. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

God answers in one of three ways to a request: yes, no, wait. You always get an answer, even its its default. Obviously she got a no.

Yes, I know it sounds like a serious cop-out, but it does make more sense for a Christian. I dont care if I cant prove it to unbelievers, you will need to talk to God about that because I cant do anything about it.



------

And, fueling the thread derailment, regardless of whether Luke was or wasn't Jewish, Jesus lived while Judea was under Roman jurisdiction. Julius Caesar mandated the Julian Calendar over Rome 40 years before Jesus was even born, meaning it was extremely likely the week structure used by the Julian calendar was the one referenced by all the apostles.

The same Julian calendar was in use when Constantine declared Sunday (the first day of the week in the Julian calendar, as in the Gregorian), the official day of 'religious observance' in the early 4th century.

But that's way off topic. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)[/B]

Yes, but Matthew was written to Jews. Jews worshipped on the sabbath and that was thier first day of the week. Which appeals more to oppressed Jews, Saturday as the first day or Sunday? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:



You forget that the verse really only applies if its within God's will. I can pray for a Ferrari all I want, but unless I am supposed to get one, I won't.

God isn't a vending machine.

God answers in one of three ways to a request: yes, no, wait. You always get an answer, even its its default. Obviously she got a no.

Hmm too bad that list of three ways is exhuastive, otherwise your argument might be something other than a baseless assertion which is in no way falsifiable.

Presenting Falsifiablilty

Your statement must be falsifiable, that is, if your statement were true, x would happen, if x does not happen then your statement isn't true. If x is every possible scenario imaginable then your statement isn't falsifiable and has the convincing power of a sack of hair.

If you want to prove to unbelievers the existance of god, or that prayer is answered and events aren't caused by purely natural events then establish some sort of criteria that decides which prayers god wants to answer. If the scenario did not fall within the selected criteria for answering a prayer then you have no problem, until a person finds a scenario that isn't attended to, even though the scenario falls within the criteria for being answered.

Do the same for no and wait.





Yes, I know it sounds like a serious cop-out, but it does make more sense for a Christian. I dont care if I cant prove it to unbelievers, you will need to talk to God about that because I cant do anything about it.

Hmm don't believe in god? talk to god about it. Wow, really great answer. :rollseyes:

[/b][/B]

I'm an atheist, but I'll answer anyway.

What was God supposed to do?

It's my belief (personally) that He's supposed to be prayed to for strength, not to change anything.

She prayed for God to be with them. None of her students were shot. One life in exchange for many?

It would be within the power of God to do any of the things you listed, but how would they be explained?

No previous heart condition (probably)

Maybe an anuerism could be explained through the intensity of the situation.

And if the heart attack was undetectable, what would the cause of death be?

An earthquake... maybe, but it's too extreme (are there any precursors for earthquakes?).

An angel to deflect the bullets? If you're aiming spot-on, a bullet won't hit the wall to your left.

A meteor. Aren't they detected before they enter the atmosphere. And if it was too small to be detected, again, too improbable (and I don't care that God can do anything, no matter how improbable).

Lightning. When's the last time he did that?

A police officer would be the best, but it's not like God would have teleported him there. The whole time she was praying, he would have been on his way to apprehend the gunman, anyway.

If something truly extraordinary would have happened, what would inquiring minds figure was the reason? Barring God, because that can't be accepted in the scientific world (not saying it wouldn't have been His hand, but people need better answers than that).

And who says she deserved life anyway?





[This message has been edited by Merlinman2005 (edited 04-20-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:



I am sorry. I was unaware you were more knowledgible of Christianity than I was. Ironic you should bring up falsibility IN A FORUM DEDICATED TO RELIGION!!!

Fucking moron...

Hmm, which statement is more moronic?

God answeres prayers either yes no or wait, I will provide no criteria for answering prayers making this post entirely useless. If this doesn't make sense to unbelievers they should talk to god about it.

or

If you wish to convince unbelievers you should consider the possibility that you are wrong and provide criteria for answered prayers that the scenario didn't meet.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

Hmm, which statement is more moronic?

God answeres prayers either yes no or wait, I will provide no criteria for answering prayers making this post entirely useless. If this doesn't make sense to unbelievers they should talk to god about it.

or

If you wish to convince unbelievers you should consider the possibility that you are wrong and provide criteria for answered prayers that the scenario didn't meet.

You are not the entire population of unbelievers, are you? Didnt think so.

If you bothered to educate yourself on the beliefs of Christians it would be infinitely more apparent. I plainly said that the verse EM quoted did not apply. It does not apply in the manner he implied because the Bible also says in James not to pray for things that are spurious because it is a sin, and God cannot accomodate you in sinning lest he be guilty by proxy.

Therefore, the verse cannot mean that if I prayed for anything that it was guaranteed to be answered.

The criteria for answer to prayer is ultimately whether God decides to grant it or not, sound reasonable? If He feels it is in your best interest to grant you your prayer, then He will grant it.

For this situation, God found it better to let her die for her cause as a witness to the rest of the children and to other witnesses than to simply let her live.

So wait, what seperates god answering only certain prayers with no rhyme or reason (assumed until you provide criteria) from naturalism?

I think this can be explained very nicely with one of my favorite quotes. This is the response to a world created, designed, and influenced by God.

"On the contrary, if the universe were just electrons and selfish genes, meaningless tragedies like the crashing of this bus [full of children from a Roman Catholic school and for no apparent reason but with wholesale loss of life] are exactly what we should expect, along with equally meaningless good fortune. Such a universe would be neither evil nor good in intention. It would manifest no intentions of any kind. In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference."

[Richard Dawkins, _River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of

Life_

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

You are not the entire population of unbelievers, are you? Didnt think so.

I did the following:

Provided a way that you could prove it to unbelievers, this is the same way that has been used to prove the quantum factor, plate tektonics, heliocentrism and many other ideas that were considered false. As Unbelievers think that your idea of prayers is false, making your assertions falsifiable wil aid you enormously in convincing them.

I was also commenting on the contradiction in terms you were using when you said that unbelievers should talk to a deity that they do not believe in.



If you bothered to educate yourself on the beliefs of Christians it would be infinitely more apparent. I plainly said that the verse EM quoted did not apply. It does not apply in the manner he implied because the Bible also says in James not to pray for things that are spurious because it is a sin, and God cannot accomodate you in sinning lest he be guilty by proxy.

Therefore, the verse cannot mean that if I prayed for anything that it was guaranteed to be answered.

Hmm, so praying for your life and the lives of children is spurious. Well, I suppose that shows the value you place on human life.

The criteria for answer to prayer is ultimately whether God decides to grant it or not, sound reasonable? If He feels it is in your best interest to grant you your prayer, then He will grant it.

No it certainly does not sound reasonable, the explanation gives no way of knowing what prayers can be answered an can only be applied in hindsight.

as for this situation, God found it better to let her die for her cause as a witness to the rest of the children and to other witnesses than to simply let her live.

She wasn't a martyr, she died praying for her life.

The answer boils down to free will..

God is not an all controlling God and things happen for a reason. THe bottom line is, not everyone is obediant to God -

Everyone has the choice to listen or not to listen to God ~ The shooter chose not to listen. The outcome and consequence is still being played out.

It is true, that it will rain on everybody who stands under it.

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

So wait, what seperates god answering only certain prayers with no rhyme or reason (assumed until you provide criteria) from naturalism?

Coincidence and novelty. There are those events which occur that can be fulfilled by simple letting things run its course. Then there are other times where events exhibit a higher degree of novelty than can be explained simply by coincidence.

There are other time where you "know" that the situation was engineered (for lack of a better term) by God. I cannot explain it, for it is limited only to experience.

A good example is given by ne of the fellows at my church. He has been through several automobiles in his lifetime. He said the only car he ever had any major trouble with is the car that he didnt pray over. This seems to suggest that God does answer prayer and that He has a plan for the Christian's life.

Naturalism would tend to suggest that prayer would have no effect on whether or not your vehicle breaks down or not. this event is fairly novel, don't you agree?

I understand that this is a trivial example, but its the only thing I can come up with at the moment.

2 things

First of all, you are being blatantly hypocritical, How on earth could praying for lack of car trouble not be considered spurious, when praying for your life and those around you is?

Secondly Anecdotal evidence does not make a study. Check out here

h ttp://www. skepdic.co m/refuge/ctlessons/lesson10.html (http: //www.skep dic.com/re fuge/ctles sons/lesso n10.html)

and here http://www.skepdic.com/testimon.html



[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 04-21-2006).]

quote:I did the following:

Provided a way that you could prove it to unbelievers, this is the same way that has been used to prove the quantum factor, plate tektonics, heliocentrism and many other ideas that were considered false. As Unbelievers think that your idea of prayers is false, making your assertions falsifiable wil aid you enormously in convincing them.

I was also commenting on the contradiction in terms you were using when you said that unbelievers should talk to a deity that they do not believe in.

I did not seriously mean you should travel to outer space and speak with him. Apparently your metiphor meter is out of batteries...

Prayer is not scientific, therefore I cannot subject it to scientific testing. Quantum factor, tectonic plates, and heliocentrism are physical occurances, whereas prayer is not.

Figure out a way to scrutinize an experience and we can talk.

quote:Hmm, so praying for your life and the lives of children is spurious. Well, I suppose that shows the value you place on human life.

Last I checked the children in the classromm were unharmed. Prayer answered? Maybe. Then again, I cannot say so because prayer is not scientific, and as such I cannot say "true" or "false".

Why don't you stop making yourself look like an idiot and understand what I am talking about and not what I write down.

quote:No it certainly does not sound reasonable, the explanation gives no way of knowing what prayers can be answered an can only be applied in hindsight.

Certainly you do not believe that you can see into the future. I would call you unreasonable on your latter claim, then.

I can know if God will answer my prayer. He answers all of them. Yes, no, wait.

I can also know what He will say. If I pray you will die as soon as you read this, I know it will not become because it is against His will.

Something that comes to mind at this point: my claim that prayer is faith and God's will comes from the Bible. If you can prove it to be wrong, you have some case for the falsification of prayer. Good luck.

quote:She wasn't a martyr, she died praying for her life.

Because I am sure you have her exact words in your hands... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

2 things

First of all, you are being blatantly hypocritical, How on earth could praying for lack of car trouble not be considered spurious, when praying for your life and those around you is?

Secondly Anecdotal evidence does not make a study. Check out here

h ttp://www. skepdic.co m/refuge/ctlessons/lesson10.html (http: //www.skep dic.com/re fuge/ctles sons/lesso n10.html)

and here http://www.skepdic.com/testimon.html



Where have I masqueraded this EXAMPLE as evidence? Show me where.

You are irrational and illogical in your premises. I have said neither praying for life nor praying for a safe journey is spurious.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Because I am sure you have her exact words in your hands... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Because I said her exact words in my post http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Please Provide the following.

Criteria For determining whether god will answer 'yes' to a prayer.

Criteria that excludes the scenario of the teacher dying, praying for her life.

Criteria that we could use to see if god will answer future prayers 'yes'

Now, I never made any claim to be able to see the future, that's why I asked for predictive criteria. If you can only say tx will occur, after x has already happened then you have no argument.

[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 04-21-2006).]

Last I checked the children in the classromm were unharmed. Prayer answered? Maybe. Then again, I cannot say so because prayer is not scientific, and as such I cannot say "true" or "false".

Why don't you stop making yourself look like an idiot and understand what I am talking about and not what I write down.

Ad hom noted and disregarded. Last time I checked, what you write down and your argument is the same thing.

So, God spares the lives of those who said that they did not believe in him but not the person who prayed for his life and those around him. He wasn't a martyr, the prayer was not spurious. I'll repeat the original question. Why?



[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 04-21-2006).]

quote:So, God spares the lives of those who said that they did not believe in him but not the person who prayed for his life and those around him. He wasn't a martyr, the prayer was not spurious. I'll repeat the original question. Why?

If you were to ask me why I believe she died, I have already spoken my peace.

If you were to ask me the exact reason why she died and no one else, I believe you are asking the wrong person. *points upward*

[This message has been edited by ArgonPlasma2000 (edited 04-21-2006).]

There is no fucking god! Get over it.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Where have I masqueraded this EXAMPLE as evidence? Show me where.



quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

A good example is given by ne of the fellows at my church. He has been through several automobiles in his lifetime. He said the only car he ever had any major trouble with is the car that he didnt pray over. This seems to suggest that God does answer prayer and that He has a plan for the Christian's life.

Naturalism would tend to suggest that prayer would have no effect on whether or not your vehicle breaks down or not. this event is fairly novel, don't you agree?

No idea argon I guess I must have been deliberately lying in an attempt to convince others of the blatant hypocrisy that your arguments show.

Or your arguments are barely coherent.



[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 04-21-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

There is no fucking god! Get over it.

*Slaps head*

Oh yeah.

But if there WAS...

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

No idea argon I guess I must have been deliberately lying in an attempt to convince others of the blatant hypocrisy that your arguments show.

Or your arguments are barely coherent.





Yea. My arguments are deliberately engineered to confused you.

Gratz for making my idiot list.

WOW Gun wouldn't shoot! It's a fucking miracle!!

Or it simply ran out of bullets because he kept shooting people with it... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[This message has been edited by ohhi (edited 04-22-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Yea. My arguments are deliberately engineered to confused you.

Gratz for making my idiot list.



Hmm, I never said you were able to provide a coherent argument and didn't out of spite for me.

Nice ad-hom btw

Hypothetically, God is all knowing so he had already made up his mind what would happen to Neva Rogers. It was all just part of his plan. I guess this means praying is useless.