Mary wasn't a virgin, but just a young woman.

Here's proof: http://www.messiahtruth.com/is714a.html

**************************************



Before you call for a lynching, I didn't write this, but I thought it was pretty funny. This isn't an anti-Christian thread, just a "be careful how you utilize ancient languages" thread.

ROFL

talk about splitting hairs...

I have no way of proving she was a virgin or not, nor does anybody else. If you are intent on using words that you yourself are deemed false then what is the point of this beyond attacking ones beliefs?

If the athiest stance is Christians can't use the bible to refer to and defend their faith then the rules should also apply to you.

Don't use the bible to attack faith and I will not use it in support of faith. If you want to change this unwritten rule to suit you in these debates then I will also use it in defence.

Either way we will go around in circles as dualing bibles always does.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-24-2006).]

Interest, this was merely a satire of Digital-Savour’s pathetic little thread. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[This message has been edited by Adrenochrome (edited 04-24-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

If the athiest stance is Christians can't use the bible to refer to and defend their faith then the rules should also apply to you.

Don't use the bible to attack faith and I will not use it in support of faith. If you want to change this unwritten rule to suit you in these debates then I will also use it in defence.

Either way we will go around in circles as dualing bibles always does.

No going round in circles here.

Just use your Bible to defend your faith, and I will use your Bible to do the opposite.



[This message has been edited by quasicurus (edited 04-24-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

Interest, this was merely a satire of Digital-Savour’s pathetic little thread. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

How was it pathetic ?

It was funny. What's pathetic is that you hate me so much you can't even see past your own animosity. I could be talking about Jeep's, and you'd be writhing in anger and foaming at the mouth.

What a loser. *shakes head*

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

How was it pathetic ?

It was funny. What's pathetic is that you hate me so much you can't even see past your own animosity. I could be talking about Jeep's, and you'd be writhing in anger and foaming at the mouth.

What a loser. *shakes head*

You stoking the flames they all hold for you is no wiser. All of the communication between you, Rust, Adrenochrome and a few others is very well disguised flame wars under the guise of debate. You hate each other, you pity each other and you deny each other. There is animosity in each of you and to deny this would be to deny that you are human enough to take offense at those who earnestly attack your beliefs.

And this isn't just to Digital. This is to you all. You've managed to turn the search for God into a pissing contest. You've injected animosity into the veins of the benevolent.

Someone is going to make a "how dare you act 'holier than thou'" post, I know. I'm not interested. It's all a game; who can win, not who can find God. It's sickening.

On to another thread where my infinite and eternal wisdom is needed. It's late and my mind is working a bit oddly. I must take advantage of this.

quote:Originally posted by Gorloche:

You stoking the flames they all hold for you is no wiser. All of the communication between you, Rust, Adrenochrome and a few others is very well disguised flame wars under the guise of debate. You hate each other, you pity each other and you deny each other. There is animosity in each of you and to deny this would be to deny that you are human enough to take offense at those who earnestly attack your beliefs.

And this isn't just to Digital. This is to you all. You've managed to turn the search for God into a pissing contest. You've injected animosity into the veins of the benevolent.

Someone is going to make a "how dare you act 'holier than thou'" post, I know. I'm not interested. It's all a game; who can win, not who can find God. It's sickening.

On to another thread where my infinite and eternal wisdom is needed. It's late and my mind is working a bit oddly. I must take advantage of this.

I totally agree, and unlike some people I admit I’m that way.

The reason I started feeling animosity towards Digital-Savour is because she’s self-righteous, acts like she’s better than everyone else, she's ignorant, she has ludicrous logic, thinks she’s intelligent cause she can quote a bible, talks down to people, and think she’s lived a more amazing life than everyone else because she’s got a baby and a drug habit, plus she can’t even admit that there might be a chance her religion is wrong. And her nasty, belittling comments - oops, I meant ‘humour’ - makes my blood boil.





[This message has been edited by Adrenochrome (edited 04-24-2006).]

Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore Adonai himself will give you people a sign; the young woman" will become pregnant, bear a son and name him 'Immanu El [God is with us].

* Or: "the virgin"

In Hebrew: Lachayn yitayn adonai hu lachem os hinay haAlmah hara v'yoledes bayn v'karas sh'mo Imanuel.

The Hebrew word 'almah in Isaiah 7:14 means "a young woman," and in the context of the Tanakh always "a young woman of unsullied reputation," which is why the Jewish translators of the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Tanakh prepared 200 years before Yeshua's birth, rendered this word into Greek as parthenos, "virgin"; this is the word used at Mattityahu 1:23.

This paragraph comes from the footnotes in my Bible, which is The Complete Jewish Bible, by David H. Stern. He seems to agree with the paragraph from your website (OP) reference 24tn.

Aside from the obvious explanation above, Mary's virginity is irrelevent to the overall purpose of the message. Moreover, is it required that if the words of a prophet Isaiah have a meaning in context that they be devoid of future meanings ?

Does Jesus' being born of a virgin have to have any relevance at all to that passage in Isaiah to still be significant to the message of the gospels ?

I know this thread wasn't meant to be serious, and I can appreciate the satire, but this isn't even remotely the same thing as what I posted. Sorry.

Is that suppose to impress us?

You realise this thread isn’t really about whether she was a virgin or not, right? It’s a piss take of your thread. There was no need for that elaborate defence.

hey everyone. i wouly like to say that likw wtf on this whole issue and such, ive sso nevermand.

Adrenochrome, you derailed the thread, you got my intention wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

Is that suppose to impress us?

You realise this thread isn’t really about whether she was a virgin or not, right? It’s a piss take of your thread. There was no need for that elaborate defence.

quote:I know this thread wasn't meant to be serious, and I can appreciate the satire, but this isn't even remotely the same thing as what I posted. Sorry.

You realise you have to read a person's entire post before deeming it irrelevant, right ?

I've been really fucking drunk for the past eight hours, and on Oxy, I cuold care less. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Should I now accuse you of thinking you have a super cool life and are superior to everyone else here, just because you get drunk and take prescription drugs ?

Um. Whee.

Somebody listened to what the guys dressed as Rabbis were saying in the beginning of Snatch.

Big deal. There are plenty of other ways to undermine Christianity.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Should I now accuse you of thinking you have a super cool life and are superior to everyone else here, just because you get drunk and take prescription drugs ?

No, because I don’t claim that makes me more experienced than ‘some snorty 14 year old that sits in his mama’s basement, eating corn chips and jacking off to porn’

Life makes me more experienced. When you turn 27, reflect on who you were today, and tell me you can't claim to be more experienced, educated, and objective.

Mary was artificially inseminated, by God.

Mary had a penis inserted into her vagina many times. THAT is why she gave birth to "Jesus Christ".

Any Christian who argues the "holy insemination" shit is just so retarded they will never accept any other viewpoint, so i'm glad you think the way you do http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

And yes, that link was cool, but as it has previously been pointed out...Snatch said it first http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Life makes me more experienced. When you turn 27, reflect on who you were today, and tell me you can't claim to be more experienced, educated, and objective.

You’re only nine years older than me. Grow the fuck up, you automatically think you’re better than, and can talk down to, people who are younger than you.

Well I got news for you, age doesn’t mean shit. There can be two men who are both 40, one an uneducated racist, the other educated and not racist, they’ve both had 40 years of life experience. Your argument is nonsense. The only difference between us age wise is that you’re closer to death than me.

Let me rephrase that. Yes, being older means you’ve had more experience, of course you’ll of had more experience, you’ve been alive longer. But, having experience doesn’t make you smarter, doesn’t mean you have the world figured out, and doesn’t mean you can talk down to people younger than you, as you seem to think it does. There can be two men of equal age, one ignorant, the other not.

Congratulations, you’re nine years older than me, that means you’re closer to natural death.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Life makes me more experienced. When you turn 27, reflect on who you were today, and tell me you can't claim to be more experienced, educated, and objective.

You’re only nine years older than me. Grow the fuck up, you automatically think you’re better than, and can talk down to, people who are younger than you.

As we get older the age gap of reason starts to decline. For instance, my sister is five years older than me. When I was 5 and she was 10, there was a vast difference in understanding. When I was 10 and she was 15, it was beginning to close, but it was still very much evident. When I was 15 and she was 20, it was noticable, but the gap closed even more. The age difference is now nominal in relation to reason now that I'm 28 and she is 33. I think you can say the same thing for anyone 9 years younger than yourself makes them 9. So are you saying that you are on par with a 9 year old in intelligence, life experience, and reasoning ability? I hope not.

Furthermore, DS was simply stating that she has more life experience than you and that it is more likely that you are sheltered and inexperienced about life than her. Its a simple fact.

quote:Furthermore, DS was simply stating that she has more life experience than you and that it is more likely that you are sheltered and inexperienced about life than her. Its a simple fact.

You know nothing about me and my life, it is not a simple fact. I don't want to go into my personal life on this forum, but it is far more fucked up than any of the things that DS has said have happened to her.

You should not jump to conclusions.

[This message has been edited by Adrenochrome (edited 04-27-2006).]

The fact that you have had a drug addiction shows that you learn only through 1st hand experience and not by watching others, this means that comparatively, while you are only 27 i am several 1000 years of age. :-P

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

You know nothing about me and my life, it is not a simple fact. I don't want to go into my personal life on this forum, but it is far more fucked up than any of the things that DS has said have happened to her.

You should not jump to conclusions.

Didn't you just make a grand assumption by stating that your "life is far more fucked up than hers"? I'm not going to go into detail about DS's life either, because although she is my wife, its not my place to talk about her former life. But let me say this, it isn't pretty by any strech of the imagination. But hey, lets not turn this thread into a debate on self-deprication or a contest of who has the most psychological trauma. All that Digi and I are saying is that its a fact in most cases that a teenager simply does not have the life skills, experience, or responsibility that a 27 year old has. There really isn't anything to debate more on that matter. And when you're 27 and some 18 year old is chastizing you or lecturing you on the virtues of life, maybe you can think back on this post and come to a similar conclusion. I'm not trying to be your enemy Adrenochrome. I'm just showing that there are two sides of a coin.

I didn’t say my life is more fucked up then hers, I said it was more fucked up than some of the things that have happened in hers. Sorry, I think I phrased it wrongly, I’m finding it hard to think lately.

I just feel like when she says stuff like ‘I’m 27, I have more life experience’ she is simply talking down to people, and feels that her life experience means she’s right about her beliefs.

quote:

All that Digi and I are saying is that its a fact in most cases that a teenager simply does not have the life skills, experience, or responsibility that a 27 year old has.



I'm not buying that. You and Digital both say some pretty stupid things. You in particular:

1) You implied that stigmas are positive.

2) You said that those who have sex with animals also condone having sex with children. This is baseless.

Piss poo mountain dew, sit back and enjoy a brew, spark a doob, wank a nut, just don't stick that in my butt.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

You know nothing about me and my life, it is not a simple fact. I don't want to go into my personal life on this forum, but it is far more fucked up than any of the things that DS has said have happened to her.

You should not jump to conclusions.

I said 2 very vague things about my past to illustrate a point. Now you assume that your life has been worse than mine...

Does it occur to you that maybe I don't like talking about my life on here, either ? I bring up personal experiences occasionally to make a point, but as a general rule, I like to keep my life private.

I've been through a lot more than a drug addiction...a LOT more.

To Hell and back, I say. I am telling you that my experience has led me to this path. That doesn't make me better than you, that makes me more experienced, and more capable of discernment.

You can take that out of context if you want to, but that won't change the fact that I know life, and it sucks without God.

Life may suck without a god, but it is not that bad and you can get off on it and you can get by. But, obviously you need a god, whether there is a real one or not.

Your only point with your posts about your life is ‘oh boo hoo, my life was so tough before I had god but he saved me!’ God does shit. My mum is a devout Christian, she believes in god, does his bidding, goes to church everyday, spreads the message to others, and the one thing she prays for is for my dad to change, but he doesn’t, he still practically beats her everyday, yet she wont leave him because she believe divorce is a sin and that god works in mysterious ways.

You have no answers, and you have no truth, you have false hope and repression.

[This message has been edited by Adrenochrome (edited 04-27-2006).]

Don't you think that we all have similar stories to some extent? Who among us have lived a life devoid of pain? What meaning does 'good' have if we don't first know what 'bad' is, or vice-versa? Contextually, they have no meaning apart from each other. You can call it yin-yang, you can call it balance, but just don't deny that it exists. What does 'light' even mean without the contrast of 'darkness.' There are alot of unanswered questions, burning questions that we all yearn to grasp. In due time. But if we hang on to a mindset of animosity and enmity at God, then we will never know anything but that. You will continue in the cycle of despair. The point that DS is making is that sometimes its in the muck and mire of life, where we are downtrodden and browbeaten, that we come to understand that there is something providential at work just behind the scenes.

If you look at the life of somebody like CS Lewis, it is quite a testimony. Because he was so cynical and so dejected, that's what breathes life into his conversion. That's what makes his personal story and his personal walk with Jesus so fulfilling. Its in the depths of the despair that we learn to appreciate the glory that will come to us if only we allowed ourselves to.

I think this is a decent webfilm that summarizes what we seek. Alright, well, the hosts are a little cheesy in their approach, but nonetheless, I hope you can appreciate what it is actually saying.

http://www.christiananswers.net/hope/home.html



[This message has been edited by hyroglyphx (edited 04-27-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

Life may suck without a god, but it is not that bad and you can get off on it and you can get by. But, obviously you need a god, whether there is a real one or not.

I need God, but not in the way you mean.

I resisted Him for a long time. He started calling me when I was only 13, and I went in the exact opposite direction. I'm not going to get into it, though...because truth doesn't seem to matter to you anyway.

quote:Your only point with your posts about your life is ‘oh boo hoo, my life was so tough before I had god but he saved me!’ God does shit. My mum is a devout Christian, she believes in god, does his bidding, goes to church everyday, spreads the message to others, and the one thing she prays for is for my dad to change, but he doesn’t, he still practically beats her everyday, yet she wont leave him because she believe divorce is a sin and that god works in mysterious ways.

The situation your mother is in is a result of sin. Not necessarily hers, or even your dad's, but sin, overall. God didn't create humans to be this way. We were created perfect, and without blemish. Sin was introduced in the Garden of Eden by Satan, and now you see the results all around you.

This world is dying. It's in pain. It aches for relief from the wars, the hatred, the disease...all of these things are a result of sin. Pride, anger, hatred, jealousy, conceit...

Just because God hasn't delivered your mother from her terrible situation doesn't mean He isn't there. Where you see a failure, God sees something else. She may go to church and pray, but if a certain aspect of her life is not in accordance to God's will, it is possible that He will do nothing until she becomes obedient to it.

Christianity is not a simple beast, yet you are making it simple. "Why doesn't God save her ?" is what you are implying with your reference to her situation in light of her beliefs, and this way of thinking is so fallacious, I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Also, she has every right to leave your dad. She is not permitted to divorce him, unless he has committed adultery, but she can file for a legal separation. She chooses not to. That is not God's fault, and He does not interfere with things like that, because He is not a micro-manager.

quote:You have no answers, and you have no truth, you have false hope and repression.

I have yet to provide anyone here with "answers". I spend most of my time defending Christianity and God against the likes of petulant children, like yourself. I would like to spend more time witnessing, but this forum doesn't seem like the right avenue for it. God certainly has answers, and I will willingly relay them.

If answers are what you seek, you can contact me.

AIM: desired hush

MSN: desired.hush@hotmail.com

IRC: Digital (on Slashnet server)

If you choose not to contact me, that is on you. I cannot force you. If you don't, please refrain from accusing me of not having answers, because you will have made it evident that you don't care about real answers.

As a side note, I wonder at a mother who appears to be a devout Christian, yet doesn't ensure that her children both understand the Bible, and her faith in it's Author.

You guys talk so much crap, yet you believe yourself with 100% certainty. Jesus Christ!

[This message has been edited by Adrenochrome (edited 04-28-2006).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

[B]You guys talk so much crap, yet you believe yourself with 100% certainty. Jesus Christ!

Why is it talking crap? Do you really thing we just flippantly came to this decision?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Why is it talking crap? Do you really thing we just flippantly came to this decision?

Oh no, you slowly came to this view point. But just because you came to something slowly doesn’t make it smart. Everything you say is just so idiotic.

I seriously think deeply religious people have mental problems.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Why is it talking crap? Do you really thing we just flippantly came to this decision?

Oh no, you slowly came to this view point. But just because you came to something slowly doesn’t make it smart. Everything you say is just so idiotic.

I seriously think deeply religious people have mental problems.



Well, you certainly are afforded the right to your beliefs. Keep exercising your Divine and Constitutional rights.

http://tinyurl.com/g3hjv

Digi is once again proven to be wrong!

omg dat article made me HAWRNY! All those Hamalah, and Broken Hymens, and Virgins! WOWZA! *boing boing boing* All three of my penises!

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

I totally agree, and unlike some people I admit I’m that way.

The reason I started feeling animosity towards Digital-Savour is because she’s self-righteous, acts like she’s better than everyone else, she's ignorant, she has ludicrous logic, thinks she’s intelligent cause she can quote a bible, talks down to people, and think she’s lived a more amazing life than everyone else because she’s got a baby and a drug habit, plus she can’t even admit that there might be a chance her religion is wrong. And her nasty, belittling comments - oops, I meant ‘humour’ - makes my blood boil.

[/B]

I'm on your list of people who "Get on your tits" lol. I love tits. I'd totally get on your tits!

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 05-23-2006).]

So they are saying she wasnt a virgin but was the baby given to her by God, what I mean is, developed without a man providing the other half. They refute any proof of her being called a Virgin, but how do they prove a guy went with her or that the baby wasnt miraculously formed inside her without a mate?

Was Joseph, according to the story, her husband at the time?

If Joseph was her husband then they are saying he probably did it with her.

If Joseph was not her husband at the time according to the story and she was just a young woman who got pregnant it is assumed she didnt fornicate and had the baby through the "Miracle" insertion and development by God.

quote:Originally posted by Gorloche:

You stoking the flames they all hold for you is no wiser. All of the communication between you, Rust, Adrenochrome and a few others is very well disguised flame wars under the guise of debate. You hate each other, you pity each other and you deny each other. There is animosity in each of you and to deny this would be to deny that you are human enough to take offense at those who earnestly attack your beliefs.

And this isn't just to Digital. This is to you all. You've managed to turn the search for God into a pissing contest. You've injected animosity into the veins of the benevolent.

Someone is going to make a "how dare you act 'holier than thou'" post, I know. I'm not interested. It's all a game; who can win, not who can find God. It's sickening.

On to another thread where my infinite and eternal wisdom is needed. It's late and my mind is working a bit oddly. I must take advantage of this.

What's your MSN, YAHOO, or AIM?

Where is Digi when you need her?

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I have no way of proving she was a virgin or not, nor does anybody else.

How about this? She had a fucking kid.

quote:Originally posted by jammoe:

How about this? She had a fucking kid.



lol!

Christians and Muslims believe the that she conceived without any male presence or sexual intercourse, that it was a miracle.

While Christianity goes the next step and says Jesus was the begotten son of God, Islam says thats a blasphemy and that Jesus was created in the womb in the way Adam was created prior. The Muslim version also lacks many characters such as Joseph and isn't set in Rome.

No one ever got pregnant without baby gravy in their slot.

get over your fairy tales.

Honestly i've never really given a rats ass whether or not it was an immaculate birth or not because if it's a miracle it's not much of one and i see the virgin mary as more of an accesory to my faith than a huge factor because it's not important of she had sex or if jesus is even a divine being, the important thing is that you can be a better person because of it all....... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... ....................HAIL SATAN