quote:Originally posted by Cooking with Zyklon B:

Christianity as antiquity.-- When we hear the ancient bells growling on a Sunday morning we ask ourselves: Is it really possible! This, for a jew, crucified two thousand years ago, who said he was God's son? The proof of such a claim is lacking. Certainly the Christian religion is an antiquity projected into our times from remote prehistory; and the fact that the claim is believed - whereas one is otherwise so strict in examining pretensions - is perhaps the most ancient piece of this heritage. A god who begets children with a mortal woman; a sage who bids men work no more, have no more courts, but look for the signs of the impending end of the world; a justice that accepts the innocent as a vicarious sacrifice; someone who orders his disciples to drink his blood; prayers for miraculous interventions; sins perpetrated against a god, atoned for by a god; fear of a beyond to which death is the portal; the form of the cross as a symbol in a time that no longer knows the function and ignominy of the cross -- how ghoulishly all this touches us, as if from the tomb of a primeval past! Can one believe that such things are still believed? from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human

I think that you should do your own homework.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

I think that you should do your own homework.



Seconded.

I think someone needs to check some sources before he posts bullshit about someone elses religion.

he quote is a tad heavy-handed and Teutonic, but consider the source. . . .

I prefer Mark Twain, when he wrote that the Bible contains "some noble poetry, a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of a thousand lies."

well i found it on the web, im more or less agnostic, and my family is not really religious and i figured some people in this forum would obviously be very religious. The darwin theory makes alot of sense but on the other hand humans evolving from micro organisms just doesnt seem right, so it does seem like there was intelligent design. to sum it up im just curious about your opinions of this quote, it does seem to make sense if you look at it from a neutral angle.

quote:Originally posted by Cooking with Zyklon B:

well i found it on the web, im more or less agnostic, and my family is not really religious and i figured some people in this forum would obviously be very religious. The darwin theory makes alot of sense but on the other hand humans evolving from micro organisms just doesnt seem right, so it does seem like there was intelligent design. to sum it up im just curious about your opinions of this quote, it does seem to make sense if you look at it from a neutral angle.

Rust will be here in 3.... 2.... 1....

In presentation, this proclaimation is full of error. The problem is it is working from the outside appearance of what was being taught. I will break it down.



quote:Christianity as antiquity.

The hisorical perspective is important as the gospel message has been handed down from generation to generation. However, those ideals are valid today just as they were then. This statement alone is designed only to marginalize all that millions hold sacred. In it's spirit, I alrady begin to see the intent to attack the faith. So I defend...

quote:

-- When we hear the ancient bells growling on a Sunday morning we ask ourselves: Is it really possible! This, for a jew, crucified two thousand years ago, who said he was God's son? The proof of such a claim is lacking.

How did I know this is about disqualifing the claim. The proof is in the heart - which is lacking in the author.

quote:

Certainly the Christian religion is an antiquity projected into our times from remote prehistory; and the fact that the claim is believed - whereas one is otherwise so strict in examining pretensions - is perhaps the most ancient piece of this heritage.

THe problem is the inability to search past the "religion" and understand the redirection of the once haughty and proud man.

quote:

A god who begets children with a mortal woman;

A stumbling block for the human mind. It is not possible scientifically so it must not have happened, right?

quote:

a sage who bids men work no more,

False - this never happened. All throughout the message tells about how we must work even in the New Testament.

quote:

have no more courts,

This would be ideal but is not the teaching.

quote:

but look for the signs of the impending end of the world;

If there is such a thing as a cycle of life where all things have a begining and an end then is it difficult to believe that time itself will also have an end? Especially when the perception of time hinges on the revolution of the earth around the sun.

quote:

a justice that accepts the innocent as a vicarious sacrifice;

A lamb without blemish is the requirement - so it is in the Christ.

quote:

someone who orders his disciples to drink his blood;

False, the last supper was symbolical. There was no eating of the flesh or drinking of the actual blood of Jesus. They ate and drank bread and wine to begin the tradition we call communion.

quote:

prayers for miraculous interventions;

There is no wrong in asking for God's help if it is His will.

quote:

sins perpetrated against a god, atoned for by a god; fear of a beyond to which death is the portal;

If a law is created and then enforced. Who else would the law breaker be against but the one who created the law. So the problem here is that there is a consequence for breaking the law? If there is such a thing as eternal torment and suffering - Common sense says why do things that we are told have the outcome of damnation?

quote:

the form of the cross as a symbol in a time that no longer knows the function and ignominy of the cross

dang the big words - ignominy = "Great personal dishonor or humiliation"

The cross is a symbol of victory over death. We see beyond the event to the conclusion of His mission. He defeated death by raising again on the third day.

quote:

-- how ghoulishly all this touches us,

Speak for yourself -

quote: as if from the tomb of a primeval past! Can one believe that such things are still believed?

Yeah, crazy eh? With all the "truth" on the Internet and teh over saturation of all kinds of doctrines and ideals you would think we would have given it up long ago...but it still stands stronger then ever in the hearts of people around the globe.

quote:

from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human

..did somebody get all this from doing a book report or something? Sounds like a homework assignment from some mean spirited, clip haired, man hateing, lesbian high school teacher who doubles as the girls swim coach.

How many times can we say that Christianity is not just a philosophy on living life. It's not something you put in your head and take a bit here and there and stack it up with all the other "great" thinkers of the world if that is what is implied in all of this.

I agree that if it is a philosophy then it makes no sense to keep it around as it makes no logical sense at that level. That is why I will say it is not a philosophy -

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-26-2006).]

Don't you think that there's a problem with your beliefs if you yourself admit that they are illogical?

quote:Originally posted by niggersexual:

Don't you think that there's a problem with your beliefs if you yourself admit that they are illogical?

Don't be stupid. You just gotta have FAITH, BROTHA.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by niggersexual:

Don't you think that there's a problem with your beliefs if you yourself admit that they are illogical?

It depends on whose logic you use.

If you only see things in the carnal then you won't see the spiritual. This is why Jesus spoke in parables.

I'll give you an example of the logic required to understand the parables.

There are several levels to a parable. The outter most meaning, the homilitical meaning, the allagorical meaning and the deeper hidden meaning.

Now with this new found knowledge of logic let us apply it to a simple parable.

The Parable of the Two Sons Matthew 21:28-31 (NIV)

28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'

29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.

31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered."



What does this mean to the man of worldly logic? What can science prove here? The meaning isn't found in scientific theory. It is found by faith as it is only God who will reveal the meaning. So maybe in this writing, God will also reveal it to you by my hands if I am worthy.

First the outter most meaning to the parable -

It is about 2 sons and a father who were told to work in a vineyard. One disobeyed by mouth but obeyed by action. The other obeyed by mouth and disobeyed by action. The question is who does what the father asks. THe answer is simple. But is that what is being taught?

The allagorical message is this: The father - is a symbol of God. The disobediant son is the Jewish people, the obediant son is the gentile or the one who obeys God. "working in the vineyard" is basically living a "fruitful" life. (another parable inside a parable) The thing to keep in mind is the time which Jesus spoke of. Part of His mission was to change the covenent between God and the "son's of Abraham" to the gentiles. The hidden allagorical message is Jesus was telling us that the Jewish tell God all day long they will follow Him but fail to do so by their deeds. The next is: even the non-jew say they don't obey but by their deeds they do. So it is those who obey God by action who please God. In support of this is the saying, "a tree is known by it's fruit"

This ties into the homilitical message - or the morale message found in this parable. It is "practice what you preach" but, if you can't even do that " at least do what is right by your actions as your words mean very little with God. Again, we are known by our actions and not by our words.

The deeper inner most meaning is a message that will fall on your heart when you understand all that preceded this. This is where God speaks to your heart directly. I can not tell you what this meaning is as it dependes on your situation and position in life. These things will determine the meaning as none of us will ever have the same exact perspective on things.

To me at this moment it means to continue living by faith no matter how twisted up things get - I should never lose site of the goal or else lose it completly. Being an "ingrafted" branch as a gentile, I also can lose my place in the "tree of life" by my actions. As it is my actions that testify more to the condition of my heart as a repentent man then my words.

I hope this has made sense in understanding the difference between - scientific logic and spiritual logic -(Rust)



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-26-2006).]

I have to ask, if you look at the parable then look at my last description of how it means to me on the deepest level, what kind of logic did I use to come to that meaning?

My friends, if you read carefully, I am implying that God spoke to my heart at that moment. Do you understand?

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-26-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

Do you understand?

Yes. I understand you are an insane nut. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



[This message has been edited by Adrenochrome (edited 04-26-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

In presentation, this proclaimation is full of error. The problem is it is working from the outside appearance of what was being taught. I will break it down.



[b] ..did somebody get all this from doing a book report or something? Sounds like a homework assignment from some mean spirited, clip haired, man hateing, lesbian high school teacher who doubles as the girls swim coach.

How many times can we say that Christianity is not just a philosophy on living life. It's not something you put in your head and take a bit here and there and stack it up with all the other "great" thinkers of the world if that is what is implied in all of this.

I agree that if it is a philosophy then it makes no sense to keep it around as it makes no logical sense at that level. That is why I will say it is not a philosophy -





You do realize your refuting a man who has been dead for over 100 years right?

quote:Originally posted by Alveric:



You do realize your refuting a man who has been dead for over 100 years right?

Yes I am, it's much easier to win debates that way.

WTF is the carnal mind??????

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I have to ask, if you look at the parable then look at my last description of how it means to me on the deepest level, what kind of logic did I use to come to that meaning?

My friends, if you read carefully, I am implying that God spoke to my heart at that moment. Do you understand?





Do you understand that your hubristic statements have no bearing on reality? I'd think that god would be a tad more eloquent.

You don't need divine intervention to understand an analogy.

I interpret it to mean that god would prefer someone who lived his life well and didn't pay lip-service to him rather than a christian who behaved in an ungodly manner.



[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 04-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:



Do you understand that your hubristic statements have no bearing on reality? I'd think that god would be a tad more eloquent.

You don't need divine intervention to understand an analogy.

I interpret it to mean that god would prefer someone who lived his life well and didn't pay lip-service to him rather than a christian who behaved in an ungodly manner.



Dang the big words again:

hubristic = Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance

Yes, I do understand.

If you believe you have the gift of knowledge then please give an interpretation for this parable.

2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'

5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

WTF is the carnal mind??????

one who thinks only of the ways of man who is bound only to the world that surrounds them.

This is in contrast to the spiritually minded who thinks also of the ways of God. They are the ones who believe in the resurrected life and an eternal heavenly paradise.

It is presented in the bible as the foolish and the wise but, I will let you determine which is which.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 05-01-2006).]

I think the parable outlines the history of god-worship as given by the bible.

Not quite sure what the clothes represent, perhaps morality.

I can go in to it in greater depth if you like.

[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 05-01-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

I think the parable outlines the history of god-worship as given by the bible.

Not quite sure what the clothes represent, perhaps morality.

I can go in to it in greater depth if you like.



Please do -

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.



4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'

5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

[this whole saga represents the OT, with the servent siezing people representing egypt]

8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

[God's messaging extending to gentiles]

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

[I think the clothes represent morality, and the non-wedding clothes wearing person representing those who claim to be christian but do not have god within them]



13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

[the immoral people who claim to be christian are sent to hell]



14"For many are invited, but few are chosen." [god's message extends to all but few accept and obey it]

[/B]



Probably one of the deeper parables, it relates to the entire history of god's word as portrayed by the bible.

quote:Originally posted by niggersexual:

Don't you think that there's a problem with your beliefs if you yourself admit that they are illogical?

DON'T LISTEN TO SATAN, HE'S TEMPTING YOU!!!!!11111111

What strikes me about this thread is the way people are presenting their beliefs as facts'

Just remember they are beliefs that can't be proven not facts .the other thing is how some people resort to name calling when they are on shaky ground a sure sign they are losing the debate.and I am amazed how some have a direct line to God and know what he is thinking .



fullywired

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:



Probably one of the deeper parables, it relates to the entire history of god's word as portrayed by the bible.

Is this all? I can not say that what you see is wrong because it is what you see. But, I will tell you there is a better translation if you understood what I said earlier on how to study them.

Do you want me to reveal exactly what it means?

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 05-03-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by fullywired:

What strikes me about this thread is the way people are presenting their beliefs as facts'

Just remember they are beliefs that can't be proven not facts .the other thing is how some people resort to name calling when they are on shaky ground a sure sign they are losing the debate.and I am amazed how some have a direct line to God and know what he is thinking .



fullywired

I'm not sure what you mean by this. It's a fact that I believe it's true. Just because you don't believe it's true doesn't change that fact.

A fact is a fact even if it is fictional or not. The orginal post was presenting non-factual references to scripture. So the answer is to reply with the facts of the scripture. Whether one believes it is true or not has no relevence.

Sometimes you have to examine a fake by measuring it against the real thing.

k

quote:

2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.

This sets up the scene. THe King is the allagorical symbol of God. The Son is of course Jesus and the wedding banquet is the life of reconciliation to God.

quote:

3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

He = God, Servents = prophets. He sent His prophets to the Jews thoughout history and showed them the way to God but they failed time and time again.

quote:

4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'

Same thing but is telling us the persistence and a symbol of God's patience with the Jews. He is saying come to Me and we will celebrate our reconciliation.

quote:

5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them.

Fairly clear - the sons of Abhraham ignored and killed the prophets that God had sent them. They ignored the commandments of God.

quote:

7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

How many times did the Jews lose Israel? It is saying here that it is because of their stubborn hearts they are destroyed and scattered.

quote:

8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come.

This is describing the reason why Jesus came the first time. Jesus was sent to start a new way and end the old way. This passage can read,

Then God said to His prophets, "I am here to reconcile with my chosen people, but those who I invite lost their place due to their faithlessness.

quote:

9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.'

Calling all gentiles or non-jews - Go throughout the world and give the message that all are invited and are welcome.

quote:

10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

A image of the great commission to go out and preach the Word to the world. Everybody is invited.

but, there are conditions...

quote:

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.

Wedding clothes means redemption or purity. God saw a person who was still in sin and has not asked for foregivness and repent.

Basically it is an image of a person standing in church but doesn't believe in God or what Jesus did. THey just showed up for the free IPOd.

quote:

12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

Obviously the message is don't show up to a wedding wearing dirty street clothes. OR better yet, don't think that without believing in God that you can be reconciled to God. There is the act of repentence that must occur. In this case the sinner is challenged by God and is speechless.

quote:

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

A image of judgement of the final days. This is a prophetic image Jesus is giving us. THere are other parts of the bible that talk about the weeping and gnashing of teeth. It is an image to those who did not come "dressed and ready" to the great "wedding banquet" or in other words. The 2nd coming of Christ where the church body of believers will be taken up and be bridaled with Jesus.

THe message is the unrepentent soul will not be added to the family of believers and will be cast out.

quote:

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Better understood as "You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting."

THe message is God sent the prophets to His chosen people, the Jews. They did not listen and lived against what God commanded and mistreated and killed the prophets of God.

Because of this He sent His son to go out and change the covenent between God and mankind. His mission was to go to all nations and gather all that are His.

In the end Jesus will return and take up His people. This parable is rich in depth and meaning.

It is a symbol of purification and reconcilation. It is a promise to the world that those who believe and prepare themselves by the various ways will inherit the kingdom of Heaven. The great banquet is the "wedding day" of when Jesus returns and takes up those that are His.

This is just the outter most and allagorical meanings. I have not yet begun the homily contained in it. I will save that for another time.

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 05-03-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. It's a fact that I believe it's true. Just because you don't believe it's true doesn't change that fact.

A fact is a fact even if it is fictional or not. The orginal post was presenting non-factual references to scripture. So the answer is to reply with the facts of the scripture. Whether one believes it is true or not has no relevence.



Sometimes you have to examine a fake by measuring it against the real thing.





I must disagree, a fact is not a fact if it is fictional.it may be a fact that you believe something but what you believe is not necessarily a fact

fullywired

quote:Originally posted by fullywired:

I must disagree, a fact is not a fact if it is fictional.it may be a fact that you believe something but what you believe is not necessarily a fact

fullywired

Interesting - so science fiction doesnt' exist? Ficticious characters don't exist? Isn't it a fact a book was written about a cat in the hat or green eggs and ham?

Take this for example -

If someone where to say Dr. Seuss wrote a book about blue eggs and ham you would deny it by saying that it is a fact that he wrote a book about green eggs and ham. Right? I hope you can at least agree with that?

Whether you believe green eggs and ham existed or not is irrelevant. The fact is the book is about green eggs and ham. We deal with truth by dealing with the facts.

So it is here - someone claims that the paragraph is biblically accurate - which it is not and that is supported by biblical facts. It's not blue eggs and ham - it's green eggs and ham...get it?

Facts aren't the only things that exist.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

Interesting - so science fiction doesnt' exist? Ficticious characters don't exist? Isn't it a fact a book was written about a cat in the hat or green eggs and ham?

Take this for example -

If someone where to say Dr. Seuss wrote a book about blue eggs and ham you would deny it by saying that it is a fact that he wrote a book about green eggs and ham. Right? I hope you can at least agree with that?

Whether you believe green eggs and ham existed or not is irrelevant. The fact is the book is about green eggs and ham. We deal with truth by dealing with the facts.

So it is here - someone claims that the paragraph is biblically accurate - which it is not and that is supported by biblical facts. It's not blue eggs and ham - it's green eggs and ham...get it?

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Of course Science fiction exists But it's title alone tells me it is not about facts and that it is a figment of the writers imagination.,.your playing with words not debating you know full well what I said and mean.Facts are facts and fiction is fiction and all your rhetoric will not alter that .Science fiction is not supposed to be true and the Author is not presenting it as true,wheras you are presenting what you can't prove as fact, all it is a belief which you are entitled to



fullywired

quote:Originally posted by fullywired:

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Of course Science fiction exists But it's title alone tells me it is not about facts and that it is a figment of the writers imagination.,.your playing with words not debating you know full well what I said and mean.Facts are facts and fiction is fiction and all your rhetoric will not alter that .Science fiction is not supposed to be true and the Author is not presenting it as true,wheras you are presenting what you can't prove as fact, all it is a belief which you are entitled to



fullywired

I'm certainly not playing word games here. I'm trying to explain that the original post was presented as being a factualy accurate account of Christianity. Which it is not - whether you believe what is in the bible is true or false does not change this. The original post contains no factual account of what is in the bible.

The quote that started this is saying it is "blue eggs and ham" when the book really is "green eggs and ham" do you understand the difference between a correct quote and an incoorrect quote? That is all that I'm saying. The quote is full of error. It is trying to portray a Christian perspective but it fails on all accounts.

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 05-07-2006).]