So, goahead and read this disclaimer and take it in,

I am an American, I travel a lot, I know a lot, I consider myself more open then most people I meet, and I know I still don't know very much about a lot of stuff, but if you can help me out in understanding this,

When Islamic (and Christian and many other mainstream religions but mainly Islamic I find) people are willing to fight to the death about their religion, why are they doing this? If someone has an opposing view to me, and I try to convince them otherwise, I usually give myself good reason, and I am not saying Islam is not a good reason for whatever you want to do with it, I am just saying, Why would you go as far as killing someone and fighting for your religion, when you could just sit back and confide in the fact that everyone else who is an "Infidel" is going to go to hell...

Truly, it's not their problem.

Sure, the religion might not be as big because it's not pushed on as many people, but if you're looking at it in the way that you're trying to help people out by enlightening them, then asses their "ignorance." If someone is unwilling, don't kill them... wtf.

Now I know this is only going to be read by those who are just as lost as I am, and not by those who don't have computers, and live under military rule and have shitty lives...

But maybe that's why.

Got any thoughts?

-Dane

Yes, Islam IS in fact gay.

It's not Islam, it's the stupidity of the Muslims. They are uneducated and don't know anything about their faith in detail. Seriously, take a look at Muslim countries. Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, they're fucking shitholes. And most of the refugees that come there to Australia are pieces of shit that need to be shipped back. If they were smart, and had a good education and really learned about Islam, this shit wouldn't be happening.

But that's how the West wants it to be. OMGZ CONSPIRACY!?!?

These "stupid" muslims know a lot more about Islam than you do. The holy texts are quite clear in regard to infidels and the afterlife.

Bottom line: These muslims believe they have the instant ticket to paradise. They cant wait to die in defense of their faith because they go straight to heaven and bang 72 hot young virgins.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

These "stupid" muslims know a lot more about Islam than you do. The holy texts are quite clear in regard to infidels and the afterlife.

Bottom line: These muslims believe they have the instant ticket to paradise. They cant wait to die in defense of their faith because they go straight to heaven and bang 72 hot young virgins.

Funny, because the Koran denounces suicide. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Funny, because the Koran denounces suicide. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

But it's not suicide. It's martyrdom, aka dying in battle against the infidel.

Muslims are commanded in the Koran to spread the "good news", same way Christians are commanded to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature". Muslims are just allowed to use excessive force to accomplish the conversion.

I agree with Loc Dogg, however, your average Middle Eastern or just Asian Muslim is a stupid twit. They produce highly intelligent ones, but most are retarded fucks who like to get loud and break stuff.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

These "stupid" muslims know a lot more about Islam than you do. The holy texts are quite clear in regard to infidels and the afterlife.

Bottom line: These muslims believe they have the instant ticket to paradise. They cant wait to die in defense of their faith because they go straight to heaven and bang 72 hot young virgins.

If they knew more about Islam than me, they wouldn't behave like fucking idiots and go blow themselves up. Like Argon said, suicide is sin in Islam, and blowing yourself up for Islam is retarded. That earns them a place in Hellfire. Why? "Oh shit I'll go and strap C4 to myself and kill some innocent civilians." Do you fucking realise how stupid that sounds? If they were on the frontline, in a heated gun battle with enemy soldiers that are attacking them, that's a completely different story.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=72%20Virgins%20in%20Paradise

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

But it's not suicide. It's martyrdom, aka dying in battle against the infidel.

Muslims are commanded in the Koran to spread the "good news", same way Christians are commanded to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature". Muslims are just allowed to use excessive force to accomplish the conversion.

I agree with Loc Dogg, however, your average Middle Eastern or just Asian Muslim is a stupid twit. They produce highly intelligent ones, but most are retarded fucks who like to get loud and break stuff.



"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: For thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. (The Noble Quran, 16:125)"

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)"

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"



Please show me where the fuck it says that you are allowed to use excessive force to convert 'infidels' in the Quran?

OP: You generalize too much.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

If they knew more about Islam than me, they wouldn't behave like fucking idiots and go blow themselves up. Like Argon said, suicide is sin in Islam, and blowing yourself up for Islam is retarded. That earns them a place in Hellfire. Why? "Oh shit I'll go and strap C4 to myself and kill some innocent civilians." Do you fucking realise how stupid that sounds? If they were on the frontline, in a heated gun battle with enemy soldiers that are attacking them, that's a completely different story.

http: //www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=72%20Virgins%20in%20Paradise (http: //www.ever ything2.co m/index.pl ?node=72%2 0Virgins%2 0in%20Para dise)

Yes I am sure you have studied the Koran more than them.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Yes I am sure you have studied the Koran more than them.

Hes studied the Quran alot more than you.

quote:Originally posted by ShqipTAR:

Hes studied the Quran alot more than you.

We're not talking about me, I'm not the one blowing myself up for religion.

Judge these quotes for yourself:

quote:Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. (Koran 9:73)

quote:Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous. (Koran 9:123)

I think the Koran is quite clear.

quote:Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whoever fights for the cause of God, whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him....The True believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan....Say: "Trifling are the pleasures of this life. The hereafter is better for those who would keep from evil...." (Koran 4:74-78)

It is evident that there are no true believers in this thread.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

We're not talking about me, I'm not the one blowing myself up for religion.

Only the small-minded fanatics are doing that, giving the rest a bad name. I despise them, the world was a better place before 9/11.

--

Judge these quotes for yourself:

quote:Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. (Koran 9:73)

quote:Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous. (Koran 9:123)

I think the Koran is quite clear.

--

There is more then 1 way to fight a war.



--

quote:Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whoever fights for the cause of God, whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him....The True believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan....Say: "Trifling are the pleasures of this life. The hereafter is better for those who would keep from evil...." (Koran 4:74-78)

It is evident that there are no true believers in this thread.

--

An example of this, might be that while you know you might get discriminated against/die, you still try to spread the word, this is also fighting for the cause of God. Nowhere does it say you need to blow up/kill anyone. You can interpret this piece anyway you like, however if you read the entire Qur’an, you'll learn that killing isn't the way.

If the Koran Says this:

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Quote 1:Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. (Koran 9:73)

Quote 2: Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous. (Koran 9:123)



And this:

quote:Originally posted by ShqipTAR:



"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"



They contradict eachother...



and this is just confusing... haha

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

-Dane

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Yes I am sure you have studied the Koran more than them.

There's a thing called the Sunnah. Look into it, maybe your mind will open the fuck up.

quote:Originally posted by ShqipTAR:

Please show me where the fuck it says that you are allowed to use excessive force to convert 'infidels' in the Quran?



I don't fucking know. I'm quoting some idiot Paki mullah who wanted to perform a minor amputation on mine and my brother's heads if we didn't convert. We told him to fuck himself and that we'd shoot him if he tried. He said he had the right to use whatever means available to bring us to Allah's love. We laughed.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

There's a thing called the Sunnah. Look into it, maybe your mind will open the fuck up.

Yep, you know more thant the religious leaders of Islam.

Props to Aseren.. BUT MAN! YOU NEVER BUMPED THAT SHIT IN SA. Obviously, my friend, I have won the debate. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Dangerous:

If the Koran Says this:

They contradict eachother...



and this is just confusing... haha

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

-Dane It seems to be contradicting because they are just cuttings. If you read the whole thing, in its entirety, it isn't conflicting.

quote:I don't fucking know. I'm quoting some idiot Paki mullah who wanted to perform a minor amputation on mine and my brother's heads if we didn't convert. We told him to fuck himself and that we'd shoot him if he tried. He said he had the right to use whatever means available to bring us to Allah's love. We laughed. So your telling me, your basing all of your opinions off some fuckstick in the street? Heh. Read the fucking Quran, until then, shut the fuck up.

quote:Yep, you know more thant the religious leaders of Islam. Eyes wide shut, eh.

I guess its just coincidence that if I were to tella sotry of a suicide bomber you would know with near certainty which faith he ascribed to. Who's eyes are wide shut?

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

I guess its just coincidence that if I were to tella sotry of a suicide bomber you would know with near certainty which faith he ascribed to. Who's eyes are wide shut?

You just don't fucking get it do you? Your ignorance and lack of knowledge about what you're talking about is of epic propoortions. You pull quotes from Anti-Islamic sites and believe everything the media tells you. Did you even click the link I provided you with?

I'm not even going to bother with you anymore. Inshallah one day you realise what you're talking about is ridiculous and change your hateful ways.

You are avoiding the issue. How can I know with certainty what faith the suicide bomber ascribes to?

My quotes from anti-islamic websites? Please show me the site from where I pulled the quotes. Or maybe why don't you explain how you manage to ignore these selected quotes. Do you just pick and choose the aspects of the Koran that appeal to you?

By defending Islam you give the fundamentalists all the mainstream defense they need. You make it politically incorrect to criticize the faith. Yet you are in no position to to tell the fundies about Islam because they study the text much more than you.

In their eyes you are not equal to them.

quote:The believers who stay at home--apart from those that suffer from a grave impediment--are not equal of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home. God has promised all a good reward; but far richer is the recompense of those who fight for Him....He that leaves his dwelling to fight for God and His apostle and is then overtaken by death, shall be rewarded by God....The unbelievers are your inveterate enemies. (Koran 4:95-101)

I guess you're a stay at home muslim.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 04-28-2006).]

It's really sad that the world doesn't see a Muslim threat. They are at a rapid rate multiplying and in the near future will fuck up the world completely (as they are starting to do now). They are the most crude immigrants to grace any country. They now demand their OWN seperate laws in Sweden and of course, Europe kisses their ass in fear. People keep kissing their ass, keep pushing a pro-muslim/palestinian agenda and I can't wait until it bites them in the ass. Australia is riots, France is Riots, Embassy Burnings, Suicide Bombings on their own people, the killing of innocent in India everyday, Israel, etc. And yet, people still kiss their ass in Europe.

Some of you are really mature about this, and dsicuss, some are not so much. Im a muslim so dont tell me idont know what im talking about.

its late and i wanan go so il jsut say something quick:

islam does not condone forcing your religion on anyone. Its wonderful to go out and preach your ways, but you arent alloud to killa nyone for the religion unless they attack first, otherwise you go to hell. If you amrtyr yourself for the purpose of going to heaven, you go to hell because its selfish. If you martyr yourself saving little muslim kids, you go to heaven cuz its not.

unfortunately some douchebags in iraq are desperate and angry and read things badly. say it with me now: extreeeeemist.

All those quotes you guys pul can give some general idea as to where something is headed, but they dont really show the true meaning. Heres why: when a quote relys on a single word (int he last ones case "fight") to amke its meaning, translation is going to be aproblem. the word fight could just as easilty be meant as a debate over two religons. Depending on who translates, different meanings come out.

ALl muslims learn islam for the sole purpose of reading the koran in its original form. The koran has NOT BEEN CHANGED even one word since it was first written because the meanings were supposed to be exactly the same each time it was read, and each different version of the koran is only differnet in the coulour ink it was printed in. The koran is said to be one of the most poetic texts int he history of man, and as such the amount of meanings and implications are impossible to translate.

In short, you dont get to judge islam till youve read all of the koran (ina rabic if possible, translations are inferior), done your background research, and considered it openmindedly. Something most non muslims just dont have the time to do.

I will judge Islam just like I judge all faith, by the consequences if the beliefs. Apparently you know more about islam than the muslim extremists who blow themselves up? I doubt it.

Again, why is it that when you hear a story of a hypothetical suicide bombing you immediately know exactly what religion the bomber ascribes to?

quote:Originally posted by Testament:

And yet, people still kiss their ass in Europe.

Because Europe is full of liberal pushovers.

Who wrote the Koran?

Not the illiterate pedophile?

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

I will judge Islam just like I judge all faith, by the consequences if the beliefs. Apparently you know more about islam than the muslim extremists who blow themselves up? I doubt it.

Again, why is it that when you hear a story of a hypothetical suicide bombing you immediately know exactly what religion the bomber ascribes to? Everyone else is so better, I mean, they do bombings without suiciding. Fucking sand niggers.

quote:Originally posted by Dangerous:

So, goahead and read this disclaimer and take it in,

I am an American, I travel a lot, I know a lot, I consider myself more open then most people I meet, and I know I still don't know very much about a lot of stuff, but if you can help me out in understanding this,

When Islamic (and Christian and many other mainstream religions but mainly Islamic I find) people are willing to fight to the death about their religion, why are they doing this? If someone has an opposing view to me, and I try to convince them otherwise, I usually give myself good reason, and I am not saying Islam is not a good reason for whatever you want to do with it, I am just saying, Why would you go as far as killing someone and fighting for your religion, when you could just sit back and confide in the fact that everyone else who is an "Infidel" is going to go to hell...

Truly, it's not their problem.

Sure, the religion might not be as big because it's not pushed on as many people, but if you're looking at it in the way that you're trying to help people out by enlightening them, then asses their "ignorance." If someone is unwilling, don't kill them... wtf.

Now I know this is only going to be read by those who are just as lost as I am, and not by those who don't have computers, and live under military rule and have shitty lives...

But maybe that's why.

Got any thoughts?

-Dane

I will clarify this for the Americans... The Muslims you see on the news are willing to fight to the death for their religion, this is true... This is because their faith is all they have to fight for... They don't own land, they don't earn enough to feed their family...

Just like the Christian's in North Eastern Europe who will fight to the death against the advancements of Russian tanks... They have nothing except their faith to loose... And Russia is a lesser enemy than God...

Just like an American from the center of the bible belt, will choose to join the army because they can not afford college and struggle to provide for their family... They will sign on to kill, when their faith clearly outlines killing is wrong...

A Pakistani in a similar position joins the ranks of a local war lord, same in Iraq. An Afghan would have joined the tali ban(Which was CIA trained and funded to fight the Russians in the 1980's)... It's power and wealth...

Like when the Jews had nothing and would fight the romans to the death, less they loose the one thing the romans couldn't take from them... their faith...

All 14 high jackers on 9/11 were Saudi Arabs... Trained in Pakistan... You will find that the poorest regions in these two countries would make a New York Ghetto look like Disney World... That is why...

Then you watch fox news, and identify Islam with violence because American Media struggles with this simple concept;

Poverty + Poor Leadership = Violence

Even when its the same case for countries like yours and mine...

As well as the fact that the only Muslims the media shows are those who are blowing themselves up

Here's an even simpler concept...

Evade a country, Expect resistance... They don't wear uniforms because they don't have the funding... They're not terrorists however... Western forces are banded together by uniform and rank... In these countries armies are banded together by religion and circumstance...

Why the Muslim suicide bombing's in Gaza?... Because prior to 40 years of Jewish occupation the Muslims in Gaza owned everything... Now they rely heavily on international funding to provide food and basic health...

What have they got to loose?... Nothing but their faith and the price for that is death anyway...

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 05-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Dangerous:

If someone is unwilling, don't kill them... wtf.

-Dane

It's not about different beliefs.

Religious people will kill non-believers because they see non-believers as a threat to the existence of their religion.

Really funny how finite, mere mortals (un-enlightened non-believers) can make others turn away from the Mighty Allah.

Infidels:1 Allah: 0



[This message has been edited by quasicurus (edited 05-05-2006).]

When the Quran was being written and organized over a thousand years ago there were many rival factions and tribes that didnt like Islam for many reasons. When all those quotes in this thread were written back in the day there were many enemies of Muslims that threatened to make such a new religion and belief go extinct. Because of this it was a natural idea to teach followers of this new religion to fight enemy infidels who threaten their own existance. It wasnt taught to fight to the death because you get rewarded in return such as being glorified by God or being sent straight to heaven to bone virgins. It was to gaurd the life of your family and friends so you can survive another day without any persecution from studying your new religion. If you quote the Quran saying that it promotes war and killing of non-believers then you dont know much of the history behind its writtings.

The reason terrorists blow themselves up today is not because their religion and life is on the line but rather because they are fanatical extremists who misinterpret quotes from the Quran for example to justify their lust for vengeance. The few who do approve and condone suicide bombings in the name of Islam represent a small minority of Muslims whose views should not be generalized with the majority. Islam is a peaceful religion if practiced properly such as the way the Prophet did. Muhammad never ordered any captured enemy to be executed although it was common practice during war at the time and many followers of Islam died in such ways.

quote:Originally posted by ShqipTAR:

Fucking sand niggers.



Damn straight, bitch.

Why do Hadiths exist?

Did Muhammed write in the Koran that women should cover their hair and legs, because back then women had lice and they never shaved their legs?

quote:Originally posted by ShqipTAR:

Originally posted by Real.PUA:

I will judge Islam just like I judge all faith, by the consequences if the beliefs. Apparently you know more about islam than the muslim extremists who blow themselves up? I doubt it.

Again, why is it that when you hear a story of a hypothetical suicide bombing you immediately know exactly what religion the bomber ascribes to? Everyone else is so better, I mean, they do bombings without suiciding. Fucking sand niggers.



Right. over. your. head.

i'm afraid shqiptar is right.

He's right that Islam is not much worse than the other major faiths, which is a point I have made many times (thus went right over his head).

But some faiths, like Jainism, practice complete nonviolence. Not all faiths teach the same thing, and that is important to realize.

quote:Originally posted by book em dano:

Did Muhammed write in the Koran that women should cover their hair and legs, because back then women had lice and they never shaved their legs?

Aren't men and women supposed to practice bodily hair removal? At least under the arms in the pubic regions? Don't kill me if I'm wrong, just something else I was taught in Pakistan.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Right. over. your. head.



Right over your head. You don't act like no one else is 'not much worse' then any other religion, you conveniantly side bar that shit. Notice you even say Islam is 'not that much worse'. Fuck you, kafr.

quote:Originally posted by ShqipTAR:

Right over your head. You don't act like no one else is 'not much worse' then any other religion, you conveniantly side bar that shit. Notice you even say Islam is 'not that much worse'. Fuck you, kafr.

This thread is about Islam. I have criticised other religions plenty, but in the appropriate threads. It's not a "convenient side bar" it's called talking about the topic at hand. If you want to start a thread about the problems associated with other faiths be my guest, I will participate.

The point about islam still remains. Suicide bombers pretty much all ascribe to one faith. You, as a modertate muslim, are actually protecting the extremeists. The core problem here is FAITH. Faith is why people blow themselves up, and you defend faith.

Yet, you are in NO POSITION to convince the extremeist that they are wrong, because THEY STUDY THE TEXT FAR MORE THAN YOU. You are a "stay at home muslim."

This same argument applies to Christianity as well. My position is to criticise ALL FAITH, not just selective faith.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

This thread is about Islam. I have criticised other religions plenty, but in the appropriate threads. It's not a "convenient side bar" it's called talking about the topic at hand. If you want to start a thread about the problems associated with other faiths be my guest, I will participate.

The point about islam still remains. Suicide bombers pretty much all ascribe to one faith. You, as a modertate muslim, are actually protecting the extremeists. The core problem here is FAITH. Faith is why people blow themselves up, and you defend faith.

Yet, you are in NO POSITION to convince the extremeist that they are wrong, because THEY STUDY THE TEXT FAR MORE THAN YOU. You are a "stay at home muslim."

This same argument applies to Christianity as well. My position is to criticise ALL FAITH, not just selective faith.

Ell oh ell, is all I can say. Pop will be the sound when your head comes out of your ass.

I had no intention of convincing you, that would be quite impossible. However, I thought you might actually try to form a coherent point.

My logic is sound and thus you have avoided the arguments. Instead, you resort to insults. People like you are the reason there is so much turmoil in the middle east.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

But it's not suicide. It's martyrdom, aka dying in battle against the infidel.

Muslims are commanded in the Koran to spread the "good news", same way Christians are commanded to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature". Muslims are just allowed to use excessive force to accomplish the conversion.

I agree with Loc Dogg, however, your average Middle Eastern or just Asian Muslim is a stupid twit. They produce highly intelligent ones, but most are retarded fucks who like to get loud and break stuff.

Islam has very specific rules about times of open war and conflict in which the enemy is directly attacking you on the battle field, you have the right to defend yourself. The Qur'an says you can warn people with words, you cant force them, and to turn away and leave them in their sin and ignorance. Killing is in self defense only.