I'm curious if anyone who is a Christian, or is knowledgeable about Christianity and the bible, has any comments about the numerous cases throughout history dealing with the possibility that people might have been harmed, possessed, or even killed by demons or the devil.

This is an interesting aspect of the Christian religion that I'd like to hear about. In other words, I'm not interested in hearing athiests explaining why it's all bullshit, I'm interested in hearing opinions on the subject from a Christian and biblical perspective for the sake of argument. Personally, I'm agnostic, and I don't adhere to any religion, but I find these topics fascinating and useful when discussed theologically.

As far as I understand it (and to be brief), Satan is basically the fallen angel who got angry at God and decided to wage an endless war with God. But the rules of this war, as I understand it, are that Satan can influence events and people, but he can't just directly cause his own evil (that kind of defeats the purpose of his challenge with God).

Therefore, how could God ever allow Satan, or demonic forces, to possess or directly harm someone against their free will? Everyone supposedly belongs ultimately to God, not Satan or anyone else, so God calls all the shots when it comes to things that are beyond the realm of human free will.

I would say common sense demands that God would never allow such things to happen. But there are many unexplained cases where it could be argued that people have become possessed and/or harmed directly by demonic forces or by Satan himself, and millions of people have had belief in such things for many centuries, including our modern age today.

So I must be missing something. What am I misunderstanding about this?

Your post is far to long to read, but I think I got the jist of it. I to am agnostic, sort of, but I totally believe in demonic possession. I've seen evidence and I think that it must be real. Which kinda sucks. *gurgling sounds, computer shuts down, deep menacing laugh*

it's because according to christian doctrine, a person has to let the demon in by his own free-will, the same way he has to has let the holy-spirit enter him.

i'm not a christian, but was raised as one.

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

it's because according to christian doctrine, a person has to let the demon in by his own free-will, the same way he has to has let the holy-spirit enter him.

i'm not a christian, but was raised as one.

That I understand, and that makes a kind of sense. But I'm talking about people who are basically attacked in some way, or even possessed, against their will, by demonic forces. History is full of cases where people suspected that demonic or Satanic forces harmed people directly, without any willingness on their part.



Is such a thing possible? If so, why would God allow it? That's my basic question.

[This message has been edited by -Morb- (edited 04-29-2006).]

well, i suppose that those people had weak faith and did not have the protection of the holy spirit. they must have faltered at some point -- became scared and lost their faith in god's ability to protect them -- to allow the demon in, according to (protestant)christian doctrine as i understand it.

eastern orthodox and to a lesser extent roman catholic see demons in everyday settings. eastern orthodox folks believe in demons of their house, the forest, the water, etc. the demons aren't always bad either. if you treat them nice they treat you nice...basically just paganism in a christian mask.

edit: god would allow it because that's satans job. "The Advesary" and his minions try to turn humans against god to test their faith. like the book of job? of course, this depends on the specific doctrine you subscribe to.

other sects would claim that this time is satans rule on earth and he is fighting a war against god, with the earth as the battlefield. why when an all-powerful god could vanquish all of his creations at will? i have no idea, it doesn't make any sense to me either. that's one of the many reasons why i'm not xian.

[This message has been edited by kenwih (edited 04-29-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Engingalish:

Your post is far to long to read, but I think I got the jist of it. I to am agnostic, sort of, but I totally believe in demonic possession. I've seen evidence and I think that it must be real. Which kinda sucks. *gurgling sounds, computer shuts down, deep menacing laugh*



what evidence is this? not the demon-girl posted on PD a while back was it?

Therefore, how could God ever allow Satan, or demonic forces, to possess or directly harm someone against their free will?

Well, that's just it. Demons can only influence against someone's will, but can't force you to do anything against your will. However, if ever there are physical manifestations its because the person invited it in. The Bible says that we aren't really fighting against flesh and blood, but of things in the spiritual realm, things we hardly understand. As far as I know, there are two types of demonic activity that manifest itself in the life of a person. That is oppression and possession. I really don't know alot on the subject, because I think taking an expressed interest in it brings you one step closer to the dark arts that are still very much alive in the world today. Let me say this much, there are alot of demonically oppressed people, but I've yet to see anyone possessed or know of anyone that has. Possession has been put to me in this light: Anyone possessed has to invite it in. And anyone who wishes to cast out demons can only be successful if the person who is inhabited 'chooses' to relinquish it because of their freewill. Its my understanding that while some of the hosts don't like it, they also do at the same time. What I mean is, suppose we have a drug addict. They hate what the drug has done to them and their spirit hates it. But at the same time, they still love the drug. Its only until they are truly ready to relinquish the bonds it places on them, that it will be released.

But this Hollywood notion that a Priest comes in with 'Holy Water,' (whatever that is) can say 10 Hail Mary's and you'll be cured isn't factual.

Everyone supposedly belongs ultimately to God, not Satan or anyone else, so God calls all the shots when it comes to things that are beyond the realm of human free will.

Right, but as I shared, this activity you speak of has to be an intentional and deliberate act. You can't just be walking one day and all of a sudden you're enveloped and inhabited by a legion of rogue angels.

I would say common sense demands that God would never allow such things to happen. But there are many unexplained cases where it could be argued that people have become possessed and/or harmed directly by demonic forces or by Satan himself, and millions of people have had belief in such things for many centuries, including our modern age today.

Yes, I know of of one person who has been physically attacked and tormented, but only after this person was seriously engaged in the dark arts. It was only until this individual fled that the attacks began to happen. And immediately when they asked God to take it away, it ceased. And this individual I speak of has never seen, heard, or experienced anything comparable to this ever again.

Here is a prime example of a group that is intentionally placing themselves in danger. To them, they are gaining power, and indeed they are. They don't do this for no reason. But, at what cost?

http://www.xeper.org/

Curiosity killed the cat........

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

what evidence is this? not the demon-girl posted on PD a while back was it?



When I went to England some crazy shit happened. And about why God allows possession, I respond with another question: Where did God come from? They're both one of those questions that nobody can answer.

my old religion teacher said he went to some christian shrine in russia and saw some crazy old possessed womanthat was freaking out and then she got cured. but my religion teacher is more full of shit than my anus after a 5 course meal.

possession is the best word for it -

example in tongue:

there are many ways of not being free, whether it be at someone else’s decree or by your own self-indulgence.

I definitely believe in evil spirit

[This message has been edited by Lou Reed (edited 04-30-2006).]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer