Basically all Catholicism (and many other religions) is, is a police force for morals and ethics. It's pretty much a classic carrot and stick setup, with heaven as the carrot, and hell as the stick. If you go out of your set of rules, you get whipped and, in Catholicism's case, go to hell. If you do good and are morally "right," you get a pat on the back and go to heaven. So essentially they are trying to enforce a set of rules. But personally, I see no benefit to religion as long as people accept whats right and wrong. Religion has been a cause, major or minor, for almost all the world's wars. It has created far more problems than it has solved. Feel free to poke holes in this.

you are such a fucking genious. can i worship you?

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

Basically all Catholicism (and many other religions) is, is a police force for morals and ethics. It's pretty much a classic carrot and stick setup, with heaven as the carrot, and hell as the stick. If you go out of your set of rules, you get whipped and, in Catholicism's case, go to hell. If you do good and are morally "right," you get a pat on the back and go to heaven. So essentially they are trying to enforce a set of rules. But personally, I see no benefit to religion as long as people accept whats right and wrong. Religion has been a cause, major or minor, for almost all the world's wars. It has created far more problems than it has solved. Feel free to poke holes in this.

"Religion has been a cause, major or minor, for almost all the world's wars. It has created far more problems than it has solved."

What do you mean by religion? Since the lead-in was Catholicism do you equate religion is Catholicism and thus catholicism is the reason for war?

I hope not because I immediatly see many problems with the assumption.

War is a product of humanism - as war serves humanistic needs. I have been both a member of a large well-trained armed force and a peaceful follower of God. I can tell you that God has always prepared Armies for the good of a people and not Himself. He has no need to defend His borders with men.

I can tell you that the war I was involved in had nothing to do with God or religion and the more I think about it there are very few wars that actually did involve religion. Since, I'm American I can only look at American History to conclude that observation.

American Revolution? Was not fought for God but for American soverignity.

Spanish-American war? Was not fought for God but for defining the southern borders of the country.

Civil-war? Was not fough for God but fought to unionize the nation under one flag.

World War 1? Was not fought for God but for European stability.

World War 2? Wsa not fought for God but against Japanese Imperialism and against the spread of Nazism.

Cold War? Was not fought for God but for ideals against communism vs. capitolism.

Korean War? Was not forught for God but for a UN action to fight communism n Korea.

Vietnam? Was not fought for God but for a UN action to fight communism in Vietnam.

Grenada? Was not fought for God but to defend American interests in the region.

Gulf War I and II? Was not fought for God but for American interests in the region.

So I've looked at a few wars of the US and I have to say that war is not fought for God but for man.

However, if you look at Islam and war in the middle east that is a different story all together.

Please give me one war that was fought for advancing the "kingdom of God"?



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-30-2006).]

Any of the... what was it, 8(?) Crusades?

And basically you overlook plenty of the wars minor causes as well. Not to mention the colonists left england because of religious intolerance which helped spark the hate that brought about the American Revolution. I consider Nazi-ism a kind of religion, in that Hitler was considered a demi-god, and fought for the purification of a "Chosen People." And look at the Middle East. Israel-Arabs. Muslim sectarian conflict. Christian-Muslim conflict. East Asian (Hindu, etc.)-Muslim conflicts. Buddhist-Chinese. etc. etc.

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

Any of the... what was it, 8(?) Crusades?

Think about it carefully.

The crusades was about pushing the muslims back to the middle east. They weren't fighting for God, they were fighting for borders and control.

Europe was being invaded by Muslims. What else is there to do but defend and push back. Just because the war had the appearance of being about "religion" doesn't mean they were doing it to convert a muslim. In fact they were doing it so not to be converted to Islam. God doesn't convert people by the swinging of a sword. That's what men do.

The result of the Crusades was the weakening and fall of Christian lands. The Crusades were called for by the Pope of the Eastern Orthodox Church in the Byzantine Empire. It was a religious war to liberate the Holy Land, Jerusalem, from the Muslims. end of story

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

And basically you overlook plenty of the wars minor causes as well. Not to mention the colonists left england because of religious intolerance which helped spark the hate that brought about the American Revolution. I consider Nazi-ism a kind of religion, in that Hitler was considered a demi-god, and fought for the purification of a "Chosen People." And look at the Middle East. Israel-Arabs. Muslim sectarian conflict. Christian-Muslim conflict. East Asian (Hindu, etc.)-Muslim conflicts. Buddhist-Chinese. etc. etc.

You are still proving my point. These are all things done by the hands of men based on humanistic principles.

If "religion" is "man-made" and "religion" is the "cause of many wars" then how can you blame God? That is my point. It all points back to mankind and what goes on in the hearts and minds of man.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 04-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

The result of the Crusades was the weakening and fall of Christian lands. The Crusades were called for by the Pope of the Eastern Orthodox Church in the Byzantine Empire. It was a religious war to liberate the Holy Land, Jerusalem, from the Muslims. end of story

The pope is not God.

You have missed my point. Blame mankind for the faults of mankind is all I am saying. If you want to burn "religion" at the stake then be my guest. You have plenty of planks to build the fire with. I hope you see that God is not beholden to a religion or a set of legalistic rituals.

But religion is created by humans, so it contains the errors and bloodthirstyness of humans. Islam says you can declare a jihad if something threatens your religion. So if religion is created by man, there is no reason for it because its man's ideas that start the wars. religion is one of man's ideas. religion starts or helps start wars.

Please give me one war that was fought for advancing the "kingdom of God"?

are you some crazy internet-roving priest? God is the invention of man. We would not have an image of god had not man's mind conjured it. God is faulted. it was originally based on natural, scientific occurences. god is an outdated explanation for unknown things.

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

But religion is created by humans, so it contains the errors and bloodthirstyness of humans. Islam says you can declare a jihad if something threatens your religion. So if religion is created by man, there is no reason for it because its man's ideas that start the wars. religion is one of man's ideas. religion starts or helps start wars.

I agree with you about religion in case you didn't catch what I am saying. The question really is was God created by men and is religion really an enemy to God?

I gave you a war. The crusades. It was designed to convert the Muslim "heathens" and to reclaim Jerusalem from them. Religious based war.

I'm saying God was created by men, as was religion, so there is really no comparison in religion being a threat to god, as they are both products of man's mind.

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

are you some crazy internet-roving priest?

Funny thing is I feel that way sometimes. But, no, not a preist and no not crazy and no I don't go looking for sites to post to. I was directed to this site a while back from a friend about some other topic. I came across this one and felt compelled to stick around for whatever reason.

quote:

God is the invention of man. We would not have an image of god had not man's mind conjured it. God is faulted. it was originally based on natural, scientific occurences. god is an outdated explanation for unknown things.

So goes your testimony. The only thing that can prove it false is time. I don't dare to challenge you on your views but only ask you to keep an open heart to the possibility since your mind is already convinced.

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

I gave you a war. The crusades. It was designed to convert the Muslim "heathens" and to reclaim Jerusalem from them. Religious based war.

You have missed what I am saying.

Maybe it would be better if I asked you, "what is the Kingdom of God?"

Well, we'll find out if I end up in hell.

in most human eyes, from papal viewpoints, it is the number of the followers that constitute the kingdom of god

but then again catholicism defines it as heaven, which has no true basis...

good question, wat do u think?

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

I'm saying God was created by men, as was religion, so there is really no comparison in religion being a threat to god, as they are both products of man's mind.

So going back to the begining of all of this, you are saying it is actually man making war with man over ideas made up by men? Is it really religion that is the fault or is it man?

it is both, seeing as religion is a product of man. its 4:00am here so im not exactly thinking completely clearly.

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

Well, we'll find out if I end up in hell.

I'm not saying you are going to hell..don't get me wrong. I'm saying that only time will prove what is true and what is not. We both "roll the dice" on this one.

Fair enough.

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

it is both, seeing as religion is a product of man. its 4:00am here so im not exactly thinking completely clearly.



Yeah, it's 1am here so I have a few hours advantage.

The point is, religion or not, war is fought by men for reasons of man. Would you agree?

I mean if it is foolish to create a religion wouldn't it be more foolish to follow it? especially if it leads you into a war?

The kingdom of God does not advance by the tip of the sword as this is God's kingdom. It's battles are won one heart at a time through the conversions of repentence. I am saying that not one sword has been swung to slay a person into advancing the "kingdom of God" there is a true religion and it is buried in a sea of ideologies designed to confuse people from seeing it.

What you are seeing is the false believer raising the sword on their fellow man to advance their own purposes and not God's.

Since you don't believe in God, you can not see this. War, along with religion, is also a man-made thing.

Im going to pass out now, so tell me, what is this true religion of yours? You don't believe in a basic moral code?

I wish there was some other people's input on this... it would probly help

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the world. No, I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Mt 10.34

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

And basically you overlook plenty of the wars minor causes as well. Not to mention the colonists left england because of religious intolerance which helped spark the hate that brought about the American Revolution.

I'm pretty sure the American Revolution was sparked by Britain implementing several laws requiring the Colonies to help shoulder the payment of war debts. The Colonies wanted British protection and to be treated as British subjects, but they thought it was unfair that they should have to pay the taxes associated with this like all other British citizens.

Yes, the Colonies were started on the premise of religious freedom, but the Revolution was fought mainly for freedom from what they deemed unfair taxation.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

World War 2? Wsa not fought for God but against Japanese Imperialism and against the spread of Nazism.



Nazism was based on Catholicism; and the root of the problems was one man's hate of another RELIGIOUS group.

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

Basically all Catholicism (and many other religions) is, is a police force for morals and ethics. It's pretty much a classic carrot and stick setup, with heaven as the carrot, and hell as the stick. If you go out of your set of rules, you get whipped and, in Catholicism's case, go to hell. If you do good and are morally "right," you get a pat on the back and go to heaven. So essentially they are trying to enforce a set of rules. But personally, I see no benefit to religion as long as people accept whats right and wrong. Religion has been a cause, major or minor, for almost all the world's wars. It has created far more problems than it has solved. Feel free to poke holes in this.

Even in a world without religion war would be equally as ubiquitous. I hope you'd all agree... anytime someone or something is different people will be inclined to fight out of fear or people will feed off of that to gain support and fuel their thirst for power.Basically I'm saying that this would happen whether or not religion was used as the tool of manipulation. So, it is essentially benign (even though it doesn't appear so) and if people find solace in having faith in a religion like any of the major ones I see no problem with it.

quote:Originally posted by Breakthrough:

Nazism was based on Catholicism; and the root of the problems was one man's hate of another RELIGIOUS group.

And that STILL doesn't equate to WW2 being started because of religion.

It may not have started it, but it played an obvious role in it.

quote:Originally posted by Breakthrough:

Nazism was based on Catholicism; and the root of the problems was one man's hate of another RELIGIOUS group.

This is not true. Nazism was based on occultism. It was an offshoot of the nights templar who believed the holy grail meant racial purity. This was what the arian philosophy came from. They believed anybody other then a pure breed arian was a dog or a worse.

Much like the rhetoric coming out of Iran right now the Nazi party was by far not Catholic nor did they follow Catholic doctrines. They followed a age old occult theology that traces it's origins from ancient Egypt.

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the world. No, I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Mt 10.34



What do you think the verse means? I am certain it isn't what you think -

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

Im going to pass out now, so tell me, what is this true religion of yours? You don't believe in a basic moral code?

I am a Christian - I don't use the scriptures to advance my desires. If I speak at all, my intent is to do all I can to speak about the truth.

I can't follow a set of rules or ideas as this is something any person can do. I have to follow by faith and it is a daily relationship and not a ritual or religion.



I can only do what I can do to follow the commandments of God - this probably doesn't equal to what you say is "a basic morale code" because most people don't accept the first 10 commandments let alone the couple hundred more that followed.

I don't follow a "basic morale code" I do all I can to follow the commandments of God despite how much I fail at them. I follow a very complex morale code.

Then what exactly do you think it means?

Why do you only reply at 1:00am and later? You're taking advantage of my being stoned and tired.

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

Why do you only reply at 1:00am and later? You're taking advantage of my being stoned and tired.

I have a one year old son and this is the only time I have for my own thinking and amusement. I'm also on the west coast - it's only 10pm here.

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

Then what exactly do you think it means?

First thing is we have to look at the overall mission of Jesus - the night he was arrested there was a scuffle and he said, Put your sword back in its place." and "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword". 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

So we see that it was not war that Jesus came to wage against man. In Luke 12:49-53 there is another account of this teaching of the coming sword.

49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."



As you can see that the sword is not symbolic of war as in this case it is at the spirit level. Jesus said that He brings a teaching that is divisive. How do we know what the symbol of the sword is and how it is used here?

In Epheshian 6:14-17 talks about the armor of God. In it you will see what the sword means. "Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

The sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

The answer to your question is the sword is the words of Jesus - and he came to claim His own from the earth. He is doing it by His word which is divisive and pits one person against another. How this is so true today even in this forum.

We can not just take on sentence out of the entire bible and build an understanding. Every word is connected from begining to end in one way or another.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 05-01-2006).]

There were 27 crsuades.

people dont kill eachother because of religion they kill eachother cause they want too. i live in ireland were catholics and prodeys have been killing eachother for........a long time,its not religion its the people who obay that religion

quote:Originally posted by ToxicWasted:

It may not have started it, but it played an obvious role in it.

No it didn't. The Vatican and the Catholic Church didn't play an obvious or active role in WW2 and Nazism. There is no fucking connection there, no matter how hard you try to create one.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

No it didn't. The Vatican and the Catholic Church didn't play an obvious or active role in WW2 and Nazism. There is no fucking connection there, no matter how hard you try to create one.

Aside from the fact that Hitler was Baptized Roman Catholic, but he didn't practice it and his interpretation was obviously skewed.

And ToxicWasted has some skewed interpretations, as well (especially of history).

[This message has been edited by King_Cotton (edited 05-01-2006).]

Look up the Vatican's role in the Holocaust and WW2 on Google.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/vat_hol12.htm

You're statement on the American Revolution is still utter bullshit. And since when did "religion" and "catholicism" become synonymous?

Too stupid. I'm closing this.

Cheers,

Lost