Interested in the religion of Islam? Feel free to add me to msn messenger at abrahimesker@hotmail.com or ask your questions here (I'd prefer MSN)

I've heard alot of silly untrue stuff being said about lots of religions here so I thought I might at least clearify some things if I can. True Qur'anic Islam, rather than the modern religion which relies on man made books called "Hadiths"

Here is some information on Hadith's from Wikipedia and why I reject them:

The earliest biography of Muhammad known is a collection of hadith: the Sirah Rasul Allah or, the Life of the Apostle of God, by Ibn Ishaq, who was born about 717 and died in 767. He thus wrote his biography well over one hundred years after Muhammad died. He would not have been able to speak to any eyewitnesses, only to those who had heard their accounts, or accounts of their accounts. Ibn Ishaq's work is contained in fragments quoted in a compilation of anecdotes and traditions composed by Islamic historian Ibn Hisham (???-834) and al-Tabari (838-923).

Other sources for biographies of Muhammad are: the military chronicles of Waqidi (745-822); the biographies of Ibn Sa'd (783-845), a student of Waqidi; later histories; Quranic commentaries; and collections of Prophetic hadith. These texts were recorded more than a century, and often several centuries, after the death of Muhammad. Some passages in the Qur'an are believed to shed some light on Muhammad's biography; however, they require a great deal of interpretation to be useful.

Bernard Lewis states that 'the collection and scunity of Hadiths didn't take place until several generations' after Muhammad's death and that 'during that period the opportunities and motives for falsification were almost unlimited'. Besides the problem of oral transmittion for over a hundred years, there were furthermore motives for deliberate distortion. The Muslims themselves at an early date realized that many Hadiths were fabricated and thus developed a whole science of criticism to distinguish between genuine Hadiths and pious or impious frauds. However modern critics have pointed out many defects in their approach. [5] Some skeptical scholars (Wansbrough, Cook, Crone, and others) have raised doubts about the reliability of the Islamic sources, especially the hadith collections. They note for instance that the earliest biography of Muhammad of Ibn Ishaq does not contain any dates or explicit details; yet, later Islamic narratives have progressively more dates, with minute details of Muhammad's life being inserted into their accounts as successive generations of scholars relay the story, such that by the time we arrive at contemporary renditions of Muhammad's story, dates and details have exploded exponentially without explanation. These skeptics believe that many hadith and other traditions were manufactured, or doctored, to support one or another of the many political or doctrinal factions that had developed within Islam in its first century or later. The life of Muhammad was believed to be the exemplar for all Muslims; hence the importance of showing that Muhammad said or did something proving that a particular faction was right. If the skeptics are right, and if much of the early material cannot really be trusted, then all that is factually known is what is contained in the summary above.

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 09-01-2006).]

Yeah, uh . . . . Why do you believe Mohammed when it is quite obvious he’s a lying sack of shit, just like Jesus.

Well, lying sack of shit or not, Muslims are asked to Read and believe in The Message (The Qur'an). It is not exactly like the Bible in the fashion it is written as it is written in a direct authoritative fashion rather than stories about Muhammed. Muhammed is not said to be the voice of the Qur'an but rather the Qur'an being the words of God, Muhammed being the simple messenger who has absolutely no knowledge of his own. Uneducated, Illiterate. Most of the history of Muhammed which is accepted as true comes from books called Hadiths written and collected 200 years after the arrival of Islam by Converts to the religion. Hadiths work like someones great great grandfather said this, and they said it to their son who said it to their wife who said it to their cousin and so on. Basically we know nothing for certain of about Muhammed, or Jesus for that matter (No Roman Records, he might not have even been in Roman times)

Any other questions? Feel free to ask!

Yeah . . . . Mohammed made that shit up. He lied about it being the word of God. I bet it was a lot easier back then to get you views across if you just said "God told me this is what we should do, so listen to me or he'll kick you in the nuts."

And if you know nothing for certain, you don't know if he was an illiterate retard for certain.



[This message has been edited by Adrenochrome (edited 05-14-2006).]

I have a good one. How do you feel about the fact Muhammed is a pedophile as described in the Hadiths? I'm curious about the general muslim perspective on it if anyone else would like to chime in.

True. The Qur'an offers as some valid points scientific proof only recently discovered which no one at the time apparently knew or could have possibly known. This included information about the atmosphere and its layers (How could they test that?). A description of a microscopic phase of embryo development inside the womb (It cant be seen if you cut them open because it is so small and is a kind of material that doesnt last outside of the environment, it requires a microscope inserted inside with an electric light or night vision). It talks about evolution in the oceans. The phases of Earths development accurately and more! It also accurately mentions an ant in one story as female, all ants are female in reality (except winged males which appear once in a while in the hive to mate with the Queen). How could Mo mo know that an ant is a female? What's his point anyway in making this religion that believes in one God instead of many when the one with lots of Gods seemed to be doin fine too?



The General Hadith Following Muslims perspective is that he is not a pedophile and that he probably never did anything sexual etc etc.

My personal perspective is that the Hadith is a bunch of lies made for political and clan purposes 200 years afterwards by people who never knew or met Muhammed. Told through tons of different people and converts and finally written down.

I don't believe Muhammed ever married a little kid I really don't place much into the Hadiths, I totally disagree with them as they are unverifiable. I believe in the Qur'an though and what it says about Muhammed, and since a little 12 year old and a marriage isnt mentioned then I doubt it ever happened.





[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 05-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I don't believe Muhammed ever married a little kid I really don't place much into the Hadiths, I totally disagree with them as they are unverifiable. I believe in the Qur'an though and what it says about Muhammed, and since a little 12 year old and a marriage isnt mentioned then I doubt it ever happened.



So you disagree with the Hadiths because they are unverifiable, why do you believe in the Qur'an? How is the Qur'an any less "a bunch of lies made for political and clan purposes."?



[This message has been edited by Boblong (edited 05-14-2006).]

Any other questions?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Any other questions?

I asked one above the quoted post.

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

I asked one above the quoted post.

I believe in the Qur'an mainly because of the content of its message, and the scientific proof found in it which to me shows that it seems to come from a source of greater knowledge, knowledge that requires equipment people didnt have at the time. If I found that the content and style of the Qur'an was clearly absurd, or that it offered no validity to its statements, or that its message seemed like it was preaching something wrong or vile I wouldn't believe. The Message is Good, and with scientific proof to boot its validity.

Yeah, man, I’ve read up on the Koran, and a lot of the science isn’t correct science.

Also, if you think your book is logical, you're wrong. Just look at these contradictions:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5591/contra.htm

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I believe in the Qur'an mainly because of the content of its message, and the scientific proof found in it which to me shows that it seems to come from a source of greater knowledge, knowledge that requires equipment people didnt have at the time. If I found that the content and style of the Qur'an was clearly absurd, or that it offered no validity to its statements, or that its message seemed like it was preaching something wrong or vile I wouldn't believe. The Message is Good, and with scientific proof to boot its validity.

How does the correctness of the message add any validity to the claims? Could you list specific references to the "scientific proof" and the relevent secions of the Qu'ran.

[This message has been edited by Boblong (edited 05-14-2006).]

Sure I'll try. http://www.themodernreligion.com/verses_sci.htm

The above is a page ive not read but might help with those scientific verses. If it doesn't help come back and I'll find another link for ya!

As for the Contradictions, I don't see those as contradictions at all:

[Yunus 10:64] Theirs are good tidings in the life of the world and in the Hereafter - There is no changing the Words of Allah - that is the Supreme Triumph.

VS

[an-Nahl 16:101] And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth- they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

(The second is saying "Then we Reveal Something New" and the people say "You're just making it up as you go!") Thats not a contradiction.

[al-Kahf 18:27] And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.

vs

[al-Baqarah 2:106] Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things ?

(Nobody can change Gods commandments vs We bring in place better (and new) information, whatever is meant to be put down is put down.) I don't see how its a contradiction.

[al-Hijr 15:9] Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.

vs

[ar-Ra`d 13:39] Allah effaceth what He will, and establisheth (what He will), and with Him is the source of ordinance.

(We reveal a reminded and protect it vs We establish what we will.) Contradiction?

[as-Sajdah 32:5] He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.

vs

[al-Ma`arij 70:4] (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.

(What YOU reckon vs angel ascending 50,000 years) Not a contradiction.

[az-Zumar 39:44] Say: Unto Allah belongeth all intercession. His is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. And afterward unto Him ye will be brought back.

vs

[Yunus 10:3] Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things. There is no intercessor (with Him) save after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Oh, will ye not remind?

(Nobody can negotiate with God, God does what he wills, there is no intercession. If it seems intercession is allowed, its still Gods will not the Intercessor who did anything. Basically in Islam there is no such thing as middle men.)

al-Waqi`ah 56:11] Those are they who will be brought nigh [56:12] In gardens of delight; [56:13] A number of people from those of old, [56:14] And a few from those of later times. (I'm not sure if this also says a number)

vs

[al-Waqi`ah 56:37] Lovers, friends, [56:38] For those on the right hand; [56:39] A number from those of old, [56:40] And a number from those of later times.

(How is this a contradiction? A number from the past, a number from the future. Its stating something obvious. Islam claims it is the OLDEST religion, as some people, prophets, believers before the Qur'an in history were also muslims doing the same religion.)

[al-Ma'idah 5:69] Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

vs

[Al-Imran 3:85] And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender {Islam} (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

(Whoever believes in Allah and the last day, whoever believes in the religion. ITS THE SAME THING HOW IS THAT A CONTRADICTION? Man this is getting silly lol. It says whoever believes in Allah (Believes in the Qur'an) and accepts the religion.)

[al-Hijr 15:85] We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them save with truth, and lo! the Hour is surely coming. So forgive, (O Muhammad), with a gracious forgiveness.

vs

[at-Taubah 9:73] O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

(How is that a contradiction!? Forgive them (and leave them alone). Don't be friends with them. It stating two different things that can be put together, forgive them (in other places it says leave them alone, forgive them, let go of them, you're not a warder over them, dont be friends with them, dont become intimate with them, be harsh with them. Its not a contradiction.)

[al-A`raf 7:28] And when they do some lewdness they say: We found our fathers doing it and Allah hath enjoined it on us. Say: Allah, verily, enjoineth not lewdness. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not ?

vs

[bani Isra'il 17:16] And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease, and afterward they commit abomination therein, and so the Word (of doom) hath effect for it, and we annihilate it with complete annihilation.

(We commanded them not to do lewdness vs there is not a township we did destroy that we did not warn with out commandment, but after it they comitted abomination.)

[at-Tin 95:3] And by this land made safe {Mecca}

vs

[al-Balad 90:1] Nay, I swear by this city {Mecca}

(What's the contradiction?)

That site didn't show me any contradictions. Hoped this helped. I know you're not going to become a muslim but thanks for the challenge!

The second website I'm still reading but I might respond later, if I don't I hope these are sufficient answers.

First: hello, Abrahim! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Noticed you were new, and you haven't acted like a dumbass yet, so welcome to totse.

Second, what are your thoughts on this (http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html) and an ex-Muslim from faithfreedom.org posed this challenge (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/avijitroy/flatearth.htm) to Muslims regarding the earth?

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

Originally posted by Abrahim:

I don't believe Muhammed ever married a little kid I really don't place much into the Hadiths, I totally disagree with them as they are unverifiable. I believe in the Qur'an though and what it says about Muhammed, and since a little 12 year old and a marriage isnt mentioned then I doubt it ever happened.



So you disagree with the Hadiths because they are unverifiable, why do you believe in the Qur'an? How is the Qur'an any less "a bunch of lies made for political and clan purposes."?





Hello Boblong, the reason for that is clearly because the hadith has been written by men and the Qu'ran has been written by God. Another reason why Islam doesnt follow Christianity because your bible has been altered by the hands of men. We would rather follow the truth written by God than what has been written by men. I dont follow Christianity just because of Jesus (may peace be upon him) because I Love Jesus (pbuh). He was an amazing man and it is disrespectful to qualify him as a God because he mentioned in the bible many times that there is only one God and that is God himself but many christians belief that Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God but in the bible Jesus(pbuh) says, "i come as the son of man," notice he said son of man, not son of god and most Christians say that he is the son of God and therefore he is also God. So it is as if you believe in three Gods, The father, Jesus Christ (pbuh), and The Holy spirit. Now tell me brother, doesnt that seem contradicting to you?

i heard that muslim men can marry a women from any religious background, but muslim women can only marry muslim men. is this true? if so, why?

[This message has been edited by postdiluvium (edited 05-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Dynasty:

Hello Boblong, the reason for that is clearly because the hadith has been written by men and the Qu'ran has been written by God. Another reason why Islam doesnt follow Christianity because your bible has been altered by the hands of men. We would rather follow the truth written by God than what has been written by men. I dont follow Christianity just because of Jesus (may peace be upon him) because I Love Jesus (pbuh). He was an amazing man and it is disrespectful to qualify him as a God because he mentioned in the bible many times that there is only one God and that is God himself but many christians belief that Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God but in the bible Jesus(pbuh) says, "i come as the son of man," notice he said son of man, not son of god and most Christians say that he is the son of God and therefore he is also God. So it is as if you believe in three Gods, The father, Jesus Christ (pbuh), and The Holy spirit. Now tell me brother, doesnt that seem contradicting to you?

God wrote nothing, to write you must have hands. Could you explain or detail how the Qu'ran is any less changed by human hands than the bible? I would also like any solid proof of who wrote it or when.

I like you. I like how you are untroubled by the people who attack your beliefs.

So as a word of advice for a newcomer on Totse: Try to ignore all the idiots who barricade their minds and employ their prejudices against Islam.

Hope you'll fit in well here....

Because no one else mentioned it yet, (unless my find search of "satanic" somehow messed up) Do you believe in the story of the satanic verses?

19:67 We created him before out of nothing

3:59 He created (Jesus) out of dust

11:61 It is He Who hath produced you from the earth

15:26,28,33 We created man from sounding clay

23:12 We created man from a product of wet earth (loam)

25:54 It is He Who has created man from water

I love that website, Thank you so much for linking me!

As I've read the Qur'an it has become pretty clear to me that it is making reference to evolution completely. Here is basically what it is saying.

(You were nothing, then from scratch(dust) we made you appear, and from modified mud on the earth you (carbon based creation) we made you appear. Adam in the Qur'an is not described as the first humanoid or MAN, rather Adam is described as a tiny little blob created from modified mud that SELF MULTIPLIES. Like a single cell, or LUCA (Last Common Ancestor). There are various clues into the Qur'an about evolution. There was a height, raised above the ocean, in which the dirt or mud was used and evolved Adam, Adam, Adam self divided and was put in the ocean where he continued to divide and divide and each new cell would divide and so one, The Qur'an also says ALL LIFE developed in the oceans. In any case poof poof poof and all those first evolutionary beings until finally, those being our ancestors, man appeared on the scene a whole TON of time later. Now you and I were developed in the womb, sperm, egg, the whole shabang.

022.005

YUSUFALI: O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust(from scratch, from nothing, you didnt exist), then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot(which I saw and its not the one they show on the website its an earlier phase which literally looks like a leech, I think its phase 3 or 4 according to the common charts I'll try to get a link), then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

022.006

YUSUFALI: This is so, because Allah is the Reality: it is He Who gives life to the dead, and it is He Who has power over all things.

http://www.neoucom.edu/DLDD/emb_stages.html Carnegie 9 seems to be the leech like clot.

In any Case, in one section of the Qur'an its talking about Our, mankinds origins in evolution, the other our recent birth. Not really contradictions. Yes people might have had this knowledge earlier, there are other facts in the Qur'an too. I still find its talk of evolution quite profound and interesting but maybe others had gotten close to concepts like that earlier too! Thanks again for the article I enjoyed reading that!

"Ancient people believed that our Earth is flat and they thought that "it is not the Earth but the Sun that moves". In the Quran we see exactly the same picture that represents the idea of the people of that time." This is incorrect,

(This isnt saying the Earth is flat, its saying land is spacious and spread out which it repeats many times)

Here is something I found on this website:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_in_islam.htm

numbered the Noble Verses to make it easier for us to follow through the original Arabic text as follows:

"30. Wal-arda bada dhalika dahaha"

"31. Akhraja minha ma-aha wa maraaha"

"32. Wal-jibala arsaha"

"33. Mata-an lakum wa li an-aamikum"

There is a mistranslation: In Noble Verse 79:30, the Arabic word "dahaha" doesn't mean extended (to a wide expanse). The word literally mean formed in "round shape" or "egg shape" as clearly proven below in this article. Also, In Noble Verse 79:31, "ma-aha" was translated as "moisture" as shown above. "ma-aha" in Arabic literally means "its water". The more accurate translation is: "He draweth out Therefrom its water And its pasture".

The interesting about Answering Christianity.com and Answering Islam.com IS THEY ARE OWNED BY THE SAME GUY, AND HIS LAST NAME IS KATZ (MEOW). I think thats what his last name was, but in any case he made two websites pitted against each other, in any case the Qur'an says the Earth is Egg Shaped, which is true as it is not exactly perfectly round but very slightly elongated.

The Earth is Spacious, Spread out like a carpet for you to walk upon! It is round! The Qur'an also talks about the layers of the atmosphere and that Earth was once mostly covered in water.

The Qur'an never says the Earth is flat, it says it is round!

Hope this helped!

To Dynasty: Thank you so much for that! Sometimes I believe the son thing is a mistranslation of greek where son and servant may have meant something similar. Servant of Man, Servant of God.

To postdiluvium: Muslim men can not marry non believing women, this is specified in the Qur'an multiple times. Marrying a non believer, or one who is tested and is not a believer, can not be and should not be married to a muslim UNTIL they become really good muslims.

To Boblong: There is no SOLID proof so many years later of anything. The words of the Qur'an are said to be from God, it attempts to offer scientific proof to bulk its validity but says some will never believe no matter what. The Qur'an says it was written by scribes who were writing what was coming through to Muhammed. The Qur'an makes reference to itself as a complete book "This Qur'an" and says it came down in phases. The Qur'an is different from the bible in the style it is written and how it speaks directly TO Muhammed, instead of Muhammed speaking to mankind. Its like its giving instructions to Muhammed "Say this do that". The Qur'an says it can not be changed and the oldest copy in arabic is identicle to the newest. Of course we can go and scribble on it and laugh maniacly. But in any case despite all that, the Bible was written and collected by different people who act as speaker in the book.

For Christians out there, there is this http://www.islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm

Its not too big of a deal but the reason for contradictions as they were different repeated texts by different people at different times and when collected apparently someone didn't double check.

To chrome: Thank you so much man! I really appreciate that! I'm glad you like me! Feel free to talk to me on MSN, AIM, or YAHOO sometime if you have it! Are you a muslim?

To speakeroo: The Satanic Verses was written recently by a Pakistani writer who was quickly exiled. I don't believe in it and his idea for the Character of the Prophet was probably based on Hadiths. Muhammed in the Qur'an is very different than the ones in the Hadiths. Hadiths are man made books collected and written over 200 years after events and told by people who never even met or saw the prophet or anyone connected to him. It like so and so said so and so and then so and so told so and so's cousin who told so and so's nephew who told so and so's uncle's grandfather's mother's cousin's son what I'm going to tell you now "Muhammed killed a gecko". I don't believe in Hadiths.

I hope this answered all your wonderful posts! Thank you so much for asking questions here, I really appreciate it! Feel free to ask more if they pop in your mind! For those who are considering becoming muslims and are seriously interested in Islam, feel free to contact me on MSN (caligulaoctavius@hotmail.com), YAHOO (abrahim_esker), or AIM (abrahimesker)!

Any other questions?

I have none . . . . You’re as dumb as a christian, you just hide it better.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

I have none . . . . You’re as dumb as a christian, you just hide it better.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I like that! Thank you! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) heheh

Is it true that muslims believe in genies because Mohamed talked to them?

[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 05-15-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

Is it true that muslims believe in genies because Mohamed talked to them?



Yes. But the proper name is Jinn. Which is where the name Genie was derived from. THey are living on Earth with us, and they are made of smokeless fire. We cannot see them, but animals can. Whenever you hear a donkey bray, it has seen a jinn.

isnt it a pain in the ass to go and pray 5 times a day, and not drink or kill or smoke or have sex or any of that?

quote:Originally posted by beaver:

isnt it a pain in the ass to go and pray 5 times a day, and not drink or kill or smoke or have sex or any of that?

No. The actions of our daily prayers are very beneficial. We connect with Allah and are at one with him. Heard of Yoga? The Islamic prayer is the best form of yoga. Allah gives us 24 hours a day, we should at least give him an hour a day back.

Drink? Why? So I can stumble around and slur my words like an idiot, say something stupid and get bashed or end up dying because I thought it would be fun to climb up a tree, but fall off and break my neck? Get behind the wheel of a car and die? Alcohol is a plaque on society. It is banned under Islam for many reasons, and the bad reasons greatly outweigh the good. I know people that drink responsibly, but how many do you know have done stupid shit because of alcohol? They outnumber the safe drinkers greatly, don't they?

Kill? killing is wrong, duh. Unless in self defence, or revenge for a murder.

Smoking is fine. I'm a smoker.

Not have sex? Allah loves it when married couples have lots of sweaty passionate sex. Sex out of wedlock can lead to many problems. It doesn't always, but it can.

Muslims are raised in a completely different world. What you think is fun, we look down upon. What we think is good, you think is crazy.

quote:Smoking is fine. I'm a smoker.

Smoking equals suicide.

To Q777:

Muhammed never spoke to Genies and there are no such thing as Genies (in the Robin Williams sense of the word) mentioned in the Qur'an. The closest thing is the mention of a creation pre dating carbon based organisms called Jinn, or Jinnath. Jinn are described as smokeless fire, pretty much electricity, and can move incredibly fast, in instants. Muhammed could not and never spoke to these creations as they can not communicate with humans or anything. The only prophet able to communicate with Jinn was the prophet Sulaiman (Solomon) who had the "miracle" of being able to communicate with all creatures and beings, including insects, birds and everything else. Jinns are also mentioned when mentioning the character Iblis who was a leader among the Jinn beings. Jinns have free will like humans and can decide to believe or disbelieve, though they are entirely different creations and are nothing like human beings otherwise. Iblis refused to show respect to the new carbon based cell Adam when asked, his argument was that he is made of an entirely different and superior substance.

The Qur'an sometimes gives dialogue to some things which are inanimate and also things that do not speak in ways that humans speak, including an ant, planets, Jinn, birds (In the Sulaiman story).

To Loc Dogg:

There is nothing in the Qur'an about a donkey's bray indicated in the Qur'an in relation to Jinn. One of the times an "ass" is mentioned is when a father is telling his son not to be like an ass lol.

The only creature ever mentioned, in the Qur'an, to be able to communicate with Jinn and vice versa was Sulaiman the prophet. Dawuud (David) could communicate with birds.

Maliaka(Angels) are another creature predating carbon based creation, they are made out of an entirely different substance than Jinn or carbon based, cellular organisms.

To beaver:

The things prescribed for those who believe in the Qur'an are not in any way benefiting or assisting God. Rather it explains that they are for the individuals to better themselves. What the Qur'an suggests is better for people, what it tells you to avoid is worse. One prays, not for God, but for themselves. God does not feed on prayers or gain power from prayers, rather it is a reminder for human beings, to take time out in a day to submit themselves to reality and humble themselves in meditation and praise. The same goes for fasting and feeding the poor with food, it doesn't do anything with God, God doesn't feed on those things, but rather it is good for us to do good, help the poor, etc.

The Qur'an explains alcohol and intoxicans have some utility for mankind but much more harm and there for not to do it. Same with gambling. It is better for you that you don't, and that you stay in your senses, dignified. Rather than putting a poison in your body or playing games of chance with high risk depending on random odds.

The Qur'an says that things that are wholesome and good for you, are lawful for you, things that are unwholesome, unhealthy, and dangerous for you, are forbidden. Reading studies in blood typology and diets, intolerancies, blood type lectins and allergins, one finds that one food that all blood types are allergic to heavilly, containing a lectin and allergin reaction for all blood types (and causes blood agglutination is Pork) (see Eat Right 4 Your Type by Dr. D'Adamo, he has nothing to do with islam its just an interesting fact and the reason the Qur'an says pork is not allowed is that it is bad for the health and body, same with alcohol.) In my opinion, there is no such thing as drinking poison responsibly. Poison is Poison, it may have some benefits, it has more harm as it is a toxic substance.

The Qur'an prescribes remaining chaste until married mostly for legal and financial obligations mostly.

Smoking is taking in chemicals and fumes and harms the lungs, it is not a wholesome act nor is it beneficial for the health.

The Qur'an and God wants you to do what is best for you and your life, to be healthy, clean, safe, well mannered, polite, an excellent example of a human being for people to respect and admire as one who is righteous and upright, that is what a person who follows the laws and prescriptions of the Qur'an accurately becomes. Those who do not fit that example are not following the revelation.

To Loc Dogg:

Smoking is not fine, you could say its a form of intoxicant, but even if you dont take that as the reason to quit, its bad for your health, it's disrespecting your body and hurting it, you should stop as soon as you can find the strength to stop it. Be good to yourself! It is not something wholesome or healthy for you just like any other drug.

Any other questions? Feel free to ask anything about Islam!

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:



Smoking equals suicide.

According to your logic, breathing today's air and eating fast food is suicide.

There has been great debate about smoking and Islam. It's hard to make a law on something that didn't exist at the time when the main laws were layed down. But it has been agreed on that smoking is makrooh. Not good, but not bad. So I'm not complaining. My Islamic teacher is a heavy smoker, but he knows more about Islam and more faithful than anyone else I know.

Abrahim: Do you not read the Hadith? Does the Qur'an mention that when a rooster crows, it has seen an angel?

No the Qur'an does not mention that when a rooster crows it has seen an angel. Nobody has knowledge of these things unless the Qur'an tells us. If the Qur'an doesn't say it, on matter of religion and spirituality, it is only human conjecture. The Hadiths are man made and in no competition or rank with the Qur'an which is far superior, the words of God carefully selected. Follow the Qur'an alone, with it is the authority and validity. The Prophet and others had no knowledge above it, and followed only what it told them, it was the message. They did not make up their own laws, nor did they have greater or deeper incite into its meaning beyond its clear revealed words. The Hadiths have said blasphemous and false things on numerous occassions, this is because it is man made, the Hadiths are not from God, they are collections of man made stories collected way after events and told by people who told other people who told other people over generations.

Smoking is bad for your health, literally, its chemicals, it contains cyanide, wood alcohol, and much more, it is not wholesome or good for the health. God wants you to do what is best for you, the best you can do for yourself. You don't need to spend money smoking and hurting your beautiful lungs, a gift from God. I'm not saying this to hurt you, but to help you! It's true alot of things are unhealthy these days, but smoking is taking in fumes and drugs into the body and it destroys the lungs, alcohol destroys the liver.

You need breathing to live, you don't need cigarettes to live. And who said I didn't consider eating bad food a form of suicide? I consider eatting bad food, smoking cigarettes, drugs, a form of mini-suicide. We know it's not good for us, we know it can aid in our death and yet we make a conscious decision to do so. Not all suicide is do to depression, being emo, and shit like that.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

You need breathing to live, you don't need cigarettes to live. And who said I didn't consider eating bad food a form of suicide? I consider eatting bad food, smoking cigarettes, drugs, a form of mini-suicide. We know it's not good for us, we know it can aid in our death and yet we make a conscious decision to do so. Not all suicide is do to depression, being emo, and shit like that.

The Qur'an wants you to do as best as you can for yourself, what is lawful is what is wholesome and good for you. Alcohol, Intoxicants, and things that are bad for you, if you are prohibited, there is enough info on the dangers and damage of cigarettes to the body that should make you understand you are doing harm to your beautiful gift of a body directly, through cigarettes. I reccomend you stop it, appreciate and thank God for your body and your health, respect your lungs, and get your wise islam teacher to stop smoking too with the same argument. I can almost guarantee God does not want you to take drugs, smoke, harm your lungs, cut yourself deliberately, or perform any self abuse through chemical substances or fumes deliberately.

Uh, yeah . . . . I don’t need a god to know what’s bad for me. I admit I drink, smoke a joint, or use morphine from time to time, but I’m aware of what it’s doing and normally I’m clean. I don’t smoke, and I barely eat any junk food, only junk food I eat is pizza and ice cream. I don’t need a god to say what’s bad, because science is capable of finding out what’s objectively bad for the body, not "morally" bad.

Yep, and you've got the mind enough to use science to your advantage, right on man!

Any other questions?

Somebody must have some questions about Islam!

Abrahim: The Qur'an says that if a Muslim man's wife misbehaves, he should 'beat' hee. What do you think about this?

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

God wrote nothing, to write you must have hands. Could you explain or detail how the Qu'ran is any less changed by human hands than the bible? I would also like any solid proof of who wrote it or when.



You are correct Boblong, the Qu'ran wasnt physically written by God but his message was sent down to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). "The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit. Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice. It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions."

I got this certain quote from Zakir Naik

you can look at this site it would be very helpful to you, http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

Also, I would like to add that the Qu'ran was written during the time of Muhammad, not 2000 years later.

Now to proove the validity and truth of the Qu'ran, brother Abrahim was able to answer that question for you many times. I think this question is the one you are very confused about which you have asked several times and that is ok keep asking whatever you want because it is the pleasure to spread out and acknowledge people about Islam. There is many scientific knowledge written in the Qu'ran which alot of scientist are being able to proove today. People have questioned the reasons WHY we have to obbey certain rules and now these reasons are being discovered.

ex. eating pork is not allowed in Islam. In Islam it is required that you keep clean, modest and decent. Pork has many bacteria and germ and we don't eat it so our system stays clean. Scientific research to this day has prooven that pork is the verdict to many diseases to mankind.



Eating of pork can cause no less than 70 different types of diseases. A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc. One of the most dangerous is Taenia Solium, which is in lay man’s terminology called tapeworm. It harbours in the intestine and is very long. Its ova i.e. eggs, enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body.

Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature.

the restricting of pork has not only been restricted in the Qu'ran but also in the Bible:



"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".

"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."

[Leviticus 11:7-8]

But the point here is not only about the pork, there is more scientific information i can provide to you about pork but the question was about the validity of the Qu'ran. Also ask yourself, how can one man sit there and write all of this on his own without making one scientific mistake? If he had known all this before wouldn't he have disclosed it to the public? The Qu'ran also mentions the planets way before Galleleo came along. How is this possible? The Qu'ran also challenges the people.

Some pagan Arabs alleged that the Qur’an was forged by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Allah (swt) challenges these Arabs in the following verse of Surah Al-Isra:

"Say: If the whole of Mankind and Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support."

[Al-Qur’an 17:88]

Later the challenge was made easy in the following verse of Surah Al-Hud:

"Or they may say, "He forged it." Say, "Bring ye then ten Surahs forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsover ye can, other than Allah, if ye speak the truth!’."

[Al-Qur’an 11:13]

It was made easier in the following verse of Surah Yunus:

"Or do they say, "He forged it"? Say: "Bring then a Surah like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can, besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!’."

[Al-Qur’an 10:38]

Finally in Surah Al-Baqarah, Allah (swt) further simplified the challenge:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah if your (doubts) are true.

But if ye cannot – and of a surety ye cannot – then fear the Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones – which is prepared for those who reject faith".

[Al-Qur’an 2:23-24]

Thus Allah (swt) made the challenges progressively easier. The progressively revealed verses of the Qur’an first challenged the pagans to produce a book like the Qur’an, then challenged them to produce ten Surahs (chapters) like those in the Qur’an, then one Surah and finally it challenges them to produce one Surah somewhat similar (mim mislihi) to the Qur’anic Surahs. This does not mean that the later verses that were revealed i.e. of Surah Baqarah chapter 2 verses 23 and 24 contradict the earlier three verses. Contradiction implies mentioning two things that cannot be possible simultaneously, or cannot take place simultaneously.

The earlier verses of the Qur’an i.e. the abrogated verses are still the word of God and the information contained in it is true to this day. For instance the challenge to produce a recital like the Qur’an stands to this day. Similarly the challenge to produce ten Surahs and one Surah exactly like the Qur’an also holds true and the last challenge of producing one surah somewhat similar to the Qur’an also holds true. It does not contradict the earlier challenges, but this is the easiest of all the challenges posed by the Qur’an. If the last challenge cannot be fulfilled, the question of anyone fulfilling the other three more difficult challenges does not arise.

This last part must help you clear the forging of the Qu'ran. If not, then like brother Abrahim says, "any more questions?" lol please feel free to ask more http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif). In the front of the Qu'ran it says, "We will protect and guard the Qu'ran" and it is our duty to do so, therefore ask more about Islam and the Qu'ran, we will protect it like we promised. By the way, Allah himself promised in the Qu'ran,

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)."

[Al-Qur’an 15:9]

There is so much i want to say but i just dont want to write more because i am afraid i will bore and tire you with so much reading. Haha http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) hope this response helped you my brother. Take care. buh bye

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

Abrahim: The Qur'an says that if a Muslim man's wife misbehaves, he should 'beat' hee. What do you think about this?

The Qur'an actually never says that. The revelation in which the word (darb) is mistranslated is talking about if a woman does not want sex. It says to leave her alone and sleep seperately if you must, then you can later try to gently convince her, if she seems to agree you can go back to bed with her and restart sexual interaction gently, but then again if she doesnt want to, then dont. The part where darb is, is when its talking about restarting sexual interaction and it uses the word darb which (hump lol). The Qur'an to make more clear its intentions has on several occasions told people to always restrain their anger, to never raise their hand against another human being (unless in self defense or on the battlefield), to always be soft spoken and polite, and much more. The Qur'an also clearifies that a person can't force another person to do anything, but also that a husband can not force his wife to do anything either. The Revelation actually makes no sense translated as beat, nor does the Qur'an ever suggest it when the revelation is talking about intercourse. Hitting is not allowed.

Thank you SO much Dynasty for your long article here, I loved reading it and I really appreciate you taking the time to type all that out! I loved being called Brother too heheh! It made me feel good! Do you have MSN Messenger? I'd like to add you there if possible.

hey guys well im back. i jsut noticed that i posted a weirdo thing on the entry i just gave out a while ago. The sentence below:

Also, I would like to add that the Qu'ran was written during the time of Muhammad, not 2000 years later.

just ignore that, i made a mistake and it has to deal with something different and frankly i am not too sure about the facts relating to that. THankyou

and by the way, Brother Abrahim lol. Thankyou for appreciating that and well I'm kind of gonna dig into my lifestory here because i have to explain to you about my depart with MSN messenger. I used to own that thing at one point but i deleted it realizing that it was interrupting with my studies and sadly i am not that great at time management and i get disctracted very easily by msn messenger lol.. so in order to discipline myself i deleted it but acutally i kind of wanted to anyway. So its back to oldschool emailing for me now, so email me please at c1assifi3d.dynasty@hotmail.com or you can add my messenger account which i rarely do go on but i might pop up if i am bored at someone's residence where they would own it and the account for that is, purebengali4eva@hotmail.com Thanks and toodles

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The Qur'an actually never says that. The revelation in which the word (darb) is mistranslated is talking about if a woman does not want sex. It says to leave her alone and sleep seperately if you must, then you can later try to gently convince her, if she seems to agree you can go back to bed with her and restart sexual interaction gently, but then again if she doesnt want to, then dont. The part where darb is, is when its talking about restarting sexual interaction and it uses the word darb which (hump lol). The Qur'an to make more clear its intentions has on several occasions told people to always restrain their anger, to never raise their hand against another human being (unless in self defense or on the battlefield), to always be soft spoken and polite, and much more. The Qur'an also clearifies that a person can't force another person to do anything, but also that a husband can not force his wife to do anything either. The Revelation actually makes no sense translated as beat, nor does the Qur'an ever suggest it when the revelation is talking about intercourse. Hitting is not allowed.



I'm surprised you managed to successfully defend that without referring to Hadith, which makes it very clear that you cannot beat your wife. Congrats.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

I'm surprised you managed to successfully defend that without referring to Hadith, which makes it very clear that you cannot beat your wife. Congrats.

Thank you! The Qur'an is a complete text that makes the message clear, it explains its own statements and doesn't contradict itself. The Hadiths are man made conjecture that were written and collected much later, after the events. Most people say one "Must" follow the Hadiths or that they are required. The Truth is, the Qur'an makes it clear that no book other than itself is required for religious knowledge, and asks from where people get their information? While the Qur'an is clear and to the point, the words selected by God, the Hadith are man made stories that have no authority or validity. Followers of the Hadith claim that following the Hadith is following the Prophet, when in fact, FOLLOWING THE QUR'AN, would be following the Prophet, as I am 100% sure he did not divert from the message given directly to him. The Prophet had no knowledge save what the Qur'an gave him, nor did he have some greater incite into the Qur'an's words or meanings. The Qur'an is the clear message, the exact words (in arabic) that he recieved. The Qur'an makes it clear on several occasions that without God's guidance, The Prophet would know nothing of these things. Furthermore, the Prophet is just a simple human being who did make mistakes, these mistakes are mentioned in the Qur'an and he was promptly corrected by the Qur'an. This is to show that not only is he a plain man capable of mistakes and errors, but that it is God who gives guidance. The Qur'an also says it is the prophets duty to reveal the message, not to elaborate on it, and I promise he never did. The Prophet in the Qur'an is somewhat different than the character produced in Hadith, the Prophet in the Qur'an is a very unsure, quiet, uneducated, and simple man with a good heart and good intentions. He is unsure of his sanity, these amazing messages coming to him, and is also saddened by people mocking him and the message, and the war that begins later on. The Prophet had no authority to make up his own rules, God gave the clear message which he followed and also corrected him on any mistakes he made during that time. Followers of the Hadith then ask "Then how do we pray?" As if they have never heard of prayer in the Qur'an. The Qur'an makes it clear how to do the ritual cleansing and prayer, and the times to pray at, and what to do during prayer (bowing down, prostration, praises). The Followers of the Hadith are looking for specific method and numbers such as getting up and going down 4 times etc, but the Qur'an leaves this opened and up to the individual, you can do it 4, 6, 10, whatever satisfies your heart, but it does clearly give the times for prayers, before sunrise, noon, mid day (afternoon) after sunset, and a portion of the night. The Qur'an also says how to recite prayers and the Qur'an, in Slow rhythmic tones, that are audible (for yourself). The Qur'an also says religion is not made to be a hardship for you. What it asks are things that are better for you as an individual, God personally does not benefit from you praying, but you benefit yourself.

The Hadith makes elaborations, interpretations, and stories that are outside of the Qur'an, without any authority or validity. If the Qur'an doesn't say it, nobody knows (on religious matters).

I do not believe in the Hadiths, I only believe completely in the Qur'an. To me, it is an extremely clear and precise message from God to mankind, a guidance and a light. It makes clear its laws and prescriptions and what is best in conduct. It's guidance can be applied in almost any situation, and using it for a base of action and conduct will make you right in action.

Also you and your teacher should consider quitting smoking immediately, and I say this from the heart with the most sincere intentions for your health. Respect and protect and benefit the body and health God has bestowed upon you, and do what is better for it. The best you can do.

The Qur'an is what has all the guidance and the knowledge. The Hadith is man made and not from God. The Prophet followed the Qur'an and did not divert from the path. The Qur'an is the only communication the Prophet recieved from God.

Any other questions?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Any other questions?

I'm reading the Qur'an so I may ask some questions on here at a later date. Will you be checking it?

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

I'm reading the Qur'an so I may ask some questions on here at a later date. Will you be checking it?

I will be checking this but if you want ask more direct questions in a more fast paced way, feel free to add me to MSN Messenger at abrahimesker@hotmail.com !

For those who wanted some scientific quotes from the Qur'an there are the following (I haven't completely reviewed them):

http://www.missionislam.com/science/book.htm

http://www.quran.org/science/

Check the index on the right of the above page.

Some people have reffered to my concept of God as somewhat alien also stating "That is not God" "You are redefining God"

as if they have some predefined concept of God that God must fit into.

My Personal Concept of God comes from the Qur'an. God is Reality. God is Encompassing Everything. Surrounding Everything.

022.006

YUSUFALI: This is so, because Allah is the Reality: it is He Who gives life to the dead, and it is He Who has power over all things.

022.062

That is because Allah - He is the Reality; and those besides Him whom they invoke,- they are but vain Falsehood: verily Allah is He, Most High, Most Great.

023.116

Therefore exalted be Allah, the King, the Reality: there is no god but He, the Lord of the Throne of Honour!

031.030

YUSUFALI: That is because Allah is the (only) Reality, and because whatever else they invoke besides Him is Falsehood; and because Allah,- He is the Most High, Most Great.

069.001

The Reality!

069.002

What is the Reality?

069.003

Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Reality is?

003.120

If aught that is good befalls you, it grieves them; but if some misfortune overtakes you, they rejoice at it. But if ye are constant and do right, not the least harm will their cunning do to you; for Allah Compasseth round about all that they do.

008.047

Be not as those who came forth from their dwellings boastfully and to be seen of men, and debar (men) from the way of Allah, while Allah is surrounding all they do.

041.054

How! Are they still in doubt about the meeting with their Lord? Lo! Is not He surrounding all things?

004.126

But to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And He it is that Encompasseth all things.

005.054

O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.

011.092

He said: "O my people! is then my family of more consideration with you than Allah? For ye cast Him away behind your backs (with contempt). But verily my Lord encompasseth on all sides all that ye do!

017.060

Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about: We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,- as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: We put terror (and warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!

Any other questions?

This post is called "Interested in Islam? Ask Questions here!" It is primarilly designed for people who are interested in Islam but have some questions about it, or want to clearify something they've heard about Islam. I appreciate every single post that people have submitted here, and I read and enjoy them all, I want to thank everyone for their submissions, I appreciate them all greatly!

If anyone is genuinely interested in the religion of Islam and the Book of the religion of Islam, The Qur'an, feel free to ask questions about it here. If you have heard something about Islam and want to ask if it is mentioned in the Qur'an, or if you want to find out if something you personally believe in is agreed or disagreed upon in the Qur'an, feel free to ask here. This post's primary function is to answer the questions of people who are genuinely interested in Islam and want to learn more. I do not mind answering or replying back to comments or questions by those who do not have a genuine interest is Islam, but if anyone is out there who wants to ask some questions about Islam or the Qur'an, you can interrupt any discussion that might be going on here and ask: That is the primary function of this post and the intention of it. Thanks again to everyone who posted here I really appreciate it and enjoyed reading all your posts, and I hope for more soon!

Any questions?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Any other questions?

Brother Abrahim, would u happen to know anything about women not being able to pluck their eyebrows?

quote:Originally posted by Dynasty:

Brother Abrahim, would u happen to know anything about women not being able to pluck their eyebrows?

The Qur'an makes no mention of modification of hair through shaving or cutting being anything forbidden. Shaving is even allowed and prescribed during the pilgrimage. So basically, yes, I believe women can pluck their eyebrows if they want to, or cut their hair, etc. What I believe is not allowed is modification of the face or skin itself, such as plastic surgery, piercings, tattoos. The exception to all of these is for medical purposes.

048.027

Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger (which was): "ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear". For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.

048.028

It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness.

(And then Shaitan)

004.119

"I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and to deface the (fair) nature created by Allah." Whoever, forsaking Allah, takes satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest.

004.120

Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception.

So it seems clear that one is allowed to shave their heads or cut their hair. Defacing oneself or one's skin through tatoos (deliberate scarring) or making holes deliberately (piercings), or changing the structure of the face through plastic surgery seem like they are defacing the face and nature you were provided with.

Here are some of the prescriptions for women:

024.031

And say to the believing women that they make modest their gaze and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

(Basically from these revelations (and others) I've understood the following: one can cut their hair but can not deface themselves through scarification, making deliberate slits, cuts, holes, or anything like that unless for medical purposes or need for survival, one should be modest and cover their privates, men and women, and women should cover their breasts.)



[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 05-19-2006).]

I don't think it was asked yet.. What about "Heaven?" What is Islam's take, how to get in, what goes on, etc.?

Does the Qur'an ever speak of it as good to blow the hell out of people who don't follow Islam? (Forgive me here, I live in an overly anti-islam/muslim/anything having to do with the middle east- NYC area)

quote:Originally posted by zebra head:

I don't think it was asked yet.. What about "Heaven?" What is Islam's take, how to get in, what goes on, etc.?

Does the Qur'an ever speak of it as good to blow the hell out of people who don't follow Islam? (Forgive me here, I live in an overly anti-islam/muslim/anything having to do with the middle east- NYC area)

Thank you SO much for a genuine question! I really appreciate it!

In Islam there is Paradise (Junith), and Punishment(Juhunum). People who do good and when the message (The Qur'an/Islam) comes to them, follow it will enter Paradise after the ressurection and judgement day. The Qur'an promises that not an "atom's weight" of injustice will be done to anyone on judgement day, but everyone will recieve exactly what they earned in the life of this world. Punishment or Hell is designed for those who did bad in the world and spent their lives doing things that are bad, such as destructive, or self destructive things, denying the "truth", or any other number of sins.

Paradise is on Earth after judgement day, it is described as resembling Earth, but a place full of peace, gardens underneath which rivers flow, people living in lofty apartments and mansions and there being alot of space. No harm will come upon people, perfect weather and everything. Those who were not married in this lifetime will be given a companion if they wish, of a new creation untouched and unexistant prior. Those who were married will be reunited with their loved ones.

Hell is described as a place of everlasting pain and burning, shame, and misery. Skin burned off will be instantly replaced with new cells and flesh, and there is no peace or comfort there. It is almost the opposite of Paradise as to reflect the nature of the thinking and the deeds of the people who reside there.

Paradise is for those who did good with their lives, helped themselves and others, did right, followed the revelation, and were on the straight path.

Hell is for those who denied the message, broke the covenant with God, broke the revelations, disobeyed and were in open rebellion.

The Covenant is an agreement said to be made prior to birth where one promises to "Hear and Obey".

Those who disobey the message, the straight path, the revelations are said to be in state of rebellion, those who have broken the Covenant with God.

The Qur'an does not allow suicide or blowing oneself up. The Qur'an prescribes ignoring those who disbelieve, and to state "Your way to you, my way to me". In a time of open war and upon a battlefield one is permitted to defend themselves and perform combat, otherwise one is not allowed to start wars, hit people, swear, shout, or attack, or kill people.

The Qur'an says that if you explain to them or not, the disbelievers will disbelieve no matter what, on their hearts is a seal, they are "deaf, dumb, and blind." so leave them in their activities, God gives them "rope" or slack, and allowed them to wander from distraction to distraction. God will deal with the execution of justice on Judgement Day. It is not the duty of Muslims to kill disbelievers, to convince disbelievers, or anything like that. One can only warn them and then leave it up to them. The duty of a Muslim is to follow The Qur'an and do good, give charity, and be an upright and moral person.

Terrorism, Suicide Bombing, Killing human beings is not allowed in Islam or permitted by the Qur'an. The only time shouting is allowed is when in urgent need or self defense, hitting allowed in self defense only and on a battlefield, and killing allowed only on a battle field in a time of open stated war and acting on the defensive. Muslims are not allowed to start or proclaim wars. Jihad means to strive in the way of God with ones wealth and person, not to kill. God prescribes giving charity as a way to strive with ones wealth in the way of God.

If you would like quotes from the Qur'an on some of these points I can provide them, otherwise I hope this information satisfies your question. To recap:

People die,

their soul returns to the mass of energy,

death for the person feels like a dreamless sleep,

the day of judgement comes suddenly and all beings are ressurected,

people are sorted out based on where they are going after the judgement, in which every part of the body, every cell testifies to ones actions and one is shown everything they did,

bad people are thrown into hell, good people enter paradise,

hell is misery and pain reflective of a life wasted in ignorant rebellion against right action, paradise is peace and joy reflective of a life spent doing good and obedience to God, right action.

Hell and Paradise are both lasting an eternity. No one can escape hell, it lasts forever, same with paradise.

Once again, if you require quotes from the Qur'an confirming what I've said here, I can provide it, if this satisfies then thank you SO much for asking the question, and feel free to ask more any time!

I have a question, I see that muslim men preforming terrorism acts under the name of islam, in the london underground train stations and on buses.Im wondering how does that make you feel that someone commits murder under the very thing you dedicate your life to?

quote:Originally posted by merkury4:

I have a question, I see that muslim men preforming terrorism acts under the name of islam, in the london underground train stations and on buses.Im wondering how does that make you feel that someone commits murder under the very thing you dedicate your life to?

I'm quite sure people's impressions and reactions to Islam are pretty negative, even from a time before terrorism. Terrorists and those who kill themselves and others, are not muslims. Suicide in not allowed and neither is murder of civillians. The only time killing is permitted is on the open battle field during a time of open war when two armies meet and do combat. Terrorists are not muslims. If nobody claimed or connected Islam with Terrorism, many people would still dislike Islam and find reasons to dislike it.

Terrorism in my opinion falls into the region of sociology, economics, and politics. I believe religion is just an excuse as they are clearly not following the religion they claim to belong to.

What do I feel about terrorists and their attacks? Not much about terrorists, I do dislike any tragic events related to any human beings and bad news is always sour.

quote:they are clearly not following the religion they claim to belong to.

They'd say the same about you. It's the same with Christians, there's all these little groups who claim the other groups are clearly not proper Christians, and vice versa.

Im kind of interested in going out with a muslim women, i dont believe in islam, so i was wondering are they allowed to get involved into a sexual relationship with people who are non-muslim?

quote:Originally posted by merkury4:

Im kind of interested in going out with a muslim women, i dont believe in islam, so i was wondering are they allowed to get involved into a sexual relationship with people who are non-muslim?

Muslim women following the Qur'an are not allowed to get into a pre marital sexual relationship and can not get into a sexual relationship with a non muslim. This is specified in the Qur'an.

To Andrenochrome:

I'm not sure which little group I belong to, I only read from and believe in the "Holy Book" of Islam, the Qur'an. Many muslims find it hard to argue with the revelations of the Qur'an once reviewed.

To merkury4:

If you require quotes I can provide them! Thanks a million for the question, I really appreciate it! Any more questions? Feel free to ask!

If anyone else also has any questions, don't hesitate to ask!

What about leeway as far as paradise goes? Such as, can you repent or makeup for your wrong doing? You didn't mention killing in self defense, is it allowed if it need be so? Are there certain levels of paradise and hell, Dante's Infirno style?

Are there sins (if some are repentable/forgivable/make up for(able)) that are considered so hanus that you MUST go to hell, or be otherwise impossible to make up for?

quote:Originally posted by zebra head:

What about leeway as far as paradise goes? Such as, can you repent or makeup for your wrong doing? You didn't mention killing in self defense, is it allowed if it need be so? Are there certain levels of paradise and hell, Dante's Infirno style?

Are there sins (if some are repentable/forgivable/make up for(able)) that are considered so hanus that you MUST go to hell, or be otherwise impossible to make up for?

Thank you for the question! Yes, every sin prior to one recieving the knowledge can be forgiven if one repents with sincerity. If you do some wrong doing after the knowledge has come to you, for whatever reason, you can repent and ask for forgiveness and then not to repeat the action. Killing in self defense is allowed. There are not really certain levels of heaven or hell according to the Qur'an but the Qur'an says that everyone gets the like of what they earned in the life of the world. It also says the more good one did the better his reward, and seems to indicate the more bad, the more severe the punishment. It seems to also indicate that people will get exactly the like of what they did in life put against them, in a way, so that could take many forms.

The Qur'an seems to indicate everything can be forgiven if one did not have the knowledge at the time. The only thing unforgiveable is doing wrong and never asking for forgiveness or repenting. Another thing mentioned as unforgiveable is taking partners to the One God, but if one revokes their beliefs that are against what The Qur'an says, and asks for forgiveness, they will be fine. No one can be completely sure what fate awaits them on judgement day according to the Qur'an and that people should be very careful about what they do.

In regards of a sexual relationship between two muslims, what are the lengths and the levels concerning sex.Are they allowed to experiment with different sexual plessure's, because i have read the karma sutra and i know indians do alot of freaky stuff, so i was wondering isit the same for muslims?.Also are muslim women allowed to talk about sex?

Also, are muslims allowed to drink alcohol? and eat meat..i've heard that there not allowed , so i just wanted to confirm.If true, why isit that there allowed to cook and chop meat up and serve it at shops, but not allowed to eat it, isn't that a little bit hypocritical?

When men go to heaven they get to fuck free virgins, wouldn't you say this is a tad sexist and degrading to women? Also what about women when they go to heaven?

quote:Originally posted by merkury4:

In regards of a sexual relationship between two muslims, what are the lengths and the levels concerning sex.Are they allowed to experiment with different sexual plessure's, because i have read the karma sutra and i know indians do alot of freaky stuff, so i was wondering isit the same for muslims?.Also are muslim women allowed to talk about sex?

Also, are muslims allowed to drink alcohol? and eat meat..i've heard that there not allowed , so i just wanted to confirm.If true, why isit that there allowed to cook and chop meat up and serve it at shops, but not allowed to eat it, isn't that a little bit hypocritical?

The Qur'an doesn't make any distinctions to what is allowed or what is not allowed but the vagina is clearly indicated for the penis. The Qur'an mentions anal sex as an abomination. The anus is not built for sexual intercourse, nor is the mouth. The Qur'an tells people to be dignified and not lewd in conduct. To be decent and upright. There is no ban on women or men being allowed to discuss sex, they can if they so wish, but once again are reminded to remain dignified, decent, and lewd, not to conduct idle or pointless, lewd conversation.

Muslims are not allowed to drink alcohol. The Qur'an says that in alcohol is some utility for humans but much more harm (sin) so therefor not to do it. Same goes for Gambling and Intoxicants (Drugs). The Qur'an allows whatever is good for your body and wholesome.

Muslims can eat all meat other than pork. Pork is forbidden by the Qur'an.

An interesting fact to note in relation to pork, According to Dr. D'Adamo's Eat Right 4 Your Type, a diet book based on his, his father's, and japanese scientists blood typology research they discovered that some foods reacte differently to certain blood types. Allergins in the food, called Lectins, enter into the blood stream and cause blood agglutination and toxic reactions in the body. The only food that absolutely no Blood type can have, that reactes to every single blood type negatively, is Pork.

If a Muslims is serving pork or alcohol to people they might explain that since the people they are serving are not believers it is ok, others might deem what they are doing as an act of a hypocrate. In my personal belief, I believe that a muslim should not serve alcohol, as much as a muslim should not sell drugs to people. As for pork, when the knowledge has come to them not to have it, why would they serve it to their fellow man?

Let's take a quick recap of what we learnt here:

There are no specific defined limitations to sexual intercourse mentioned in the Qur'an save for clues and indications of what is wrong and what is right in conduct. The Qur'an says not to be lewd or to committ transgressions (going overboard, too far, beyond bounds of decency).

Muslim men and women are allowed to talk about absolutely anything, equally, but should beware not to lie, or waste time in idle, pointless conversation that achieves nothing.

Muslims are not allowed to drink alcohol, gamble, become intoxicated with drugs, or eat pork.

What is wholesome (and edible) and good, is lawful.

Some muslims believe meat needs to be sacrificed to God in a specific fashion in order to be lawful, other muslims do not believe this. The Qur'an says you can eat anything except what it has specifically forbidden. Among some of the things forbidden other than pork is blood, carrion(road kill, animals found dead), animals killed by other animals and found dead, and food sacrificed to idols.

The Qur'an makes no indication of a certain way to kill animals in order to eat them but prescribes taking the name of God upon the food before eating it and being thankful. "Bissmillah Hir akkman, Nir aheem" which means In the Name of Allah The Beneficent, the Merciful. "Shukur Alhumdtholillah hay rub il alameen" Is a typical way in which muslims say thanks to be to God, Lord of the Worlds.

quote:Originally posted by New Star In The Sky:

When men go to heaven they get to fuck free virgins, wouldn't you say this is a tad sexist and degrading to women? Also what about women when they go to heaven?

The Qur'an doesn't really state it like that, but rather, those who were not married in this lifetime will be given a companion of equal age in the afterlife. A new creation that has been untouched prior. There is no "fucking" of multiple virgins mentioned in the Qur'an. Those who were married in this lifetime will be reunited with their wife.

Women and men in the Qur'an are mentioned as equal, that in marriage one is a comfort for another, a protection or warmth. The Qur'an also states men and women are different by a degrees, this is obviously true as a women has a vagina and breasts and can carry children, and a man has a penis.

The Qur'an does not allow forced marriages, allows divorce by either party, and is very much for the rights of the female.

The impression that Islam or The Qur'an is sexist or degrading to women is a false one.

The Qur'an never tells women to cover their heads, but says instead for women to cover their breasts and private parts.

Another false concept connected with Islam is that it allows a man to marry multiple women. A man is allowed to marry only one woman, but the Prophet was given the option to marry more than one, which is indicated in the Qur'an, most probably for clan reasons in order to bring peace. If he had sexual intercourse with more than one or any is unknown. For everyone else its one or its adultry according to the Qur'an. You can marry and later divorce after a lengthy process only if you have a good reason to divorce such as infidelity.

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 05-19-2006).]

"The Qur'an never tells women to cover their heads"

So why do they cover there heads and faces?

quote:Originally posted by merkury4:

"The Qur'an never tells women to cover their heads"

So why do they cover there heads and faces?

There are books besides the Qur'an called Hadith, these are stories about the prophet collected over 200 years after events through generational stories and myths and told by people who never directly new anyone related to those events historically. Many modern muslims follow these books and stories as historical fact, even non muslims draw their history of events from some of these stories, none of which can be verified as true or ever happening. The Qur'an is relatively simple and easy to comprehend and follow, its instructions are also straightforward and to the point. The Hadiths add tons of unkown laws and traditions as well as superstitions to the religion. It is the Hadith in which some muslims derive that they should cover their hair. Some go even further and cover their faces too. The Qur'an only says to cover ones breasts and privates.

Any other questions? Feel free to ask!

I know a few Muslims, and none of them eat pork, which is good, however, none of them eat Halaal meat(there is a butcher in our area). Im Jewish, and I keep Kosher, so all I buy is kosher meats. I was wondering, is it less strict in Islam, or are my Muslim friends just lazy?

Also, what is your opinion on Judaism? I know the 'people of the book' stuff. However, Ive heard two opinions, that Judaism (and Christianity) are Lesser religions or that Judaism and Islam are equal, but for different people. Just wondering what your opinion is.

quote:Originally posted by Sharule:

I know a few Muslims, and none of them eat pork, which is good, however, none of them eat Halaal meat(there is a butcher in our area). Im Jewish, and I keep Kosher, so all I buy is kosher meats. I was wondering, is it less strict in Islam, or are my Muslim friends just lazy?

Also, what is your opinion on Judaism? I know the 'people of the book' stuff. However, Ive heard two opinions, that Judaism (and Christianity) are Lesser religions or that Judaism and Islam are equal, but for different people. Just wondering what your opinion is.

Excellent questions, Thank You for asking!

The concept of "Halal" meat and the killing of an animal for food in a specific fashion originates from the Kosher tradition in Judaism and is found in the Hadith of Muslims. The Hadith are a collection of stories collected over 200 years after the prophet and told by many different sources, none of whome actually where there. After Islam swept the nearby areas, new converts to the religion sought to incorporate their former traditions, stories, and concepts through the Hadiths. From Christian converts came the concept of the "Second Coming of Christ", from Judaism came circumsision and many other traditions, including making food lawful through a certain process.

The Qur'an itself does not prohibit much of what the Hadith prohibits, and does not allow some of what the Hadith allows.

The Qur'an does not mention circumsision nor does it prescribe it, in my opinion: If God gave us a part of our body, why would God then tell us to cut it? The Qur'an does not allow one to change the form they are given through surgery unless in need, and I do not believe that it allows or prescribes one to cut their "God given" foreskin. I am circumsized as are most Muslims.

According to the Qur'an, all food is lawful, all that is wholesome and good for you:

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O ye who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you, and be grateful to Allah, if it is Him ye worship.

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He hath only forbidden you what dies of itself (carrion), and blood, and swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah (Food immolated to Idols). But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.

005.003

Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

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They ask thee what is lawful to them (as food). Say: lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure: and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah: eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of Allah over it: and fear Allah; for Allah is swift in taking account.

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This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

(Also all seafood is allowed too.)

Some people may misunderstand the portion of the revelations above directed at food placed infront of idols. They may feel that food killed in no name at all is forbidden to them, but the Qur'an has made clear what specifically is forbidden, and what is lawful.

The Qur'an has alot to say about Judaism. The Qur'an differentiates to some degree the ancient B'Nei Israel Tribe, and the modern Yahudi.

The Qur'an says that the Taurath (Torah) was sent to Musa (Moses) but in later years parts of it were hidden from the people and edited out eventually.

A large portion of the Qur'an talks about the B'Nei Israel.

002.040, 002.047, 002.063, 002.083, 002.122, 002.211, 002.246, 003.049, 003.093, 005.012, 005.032, 005.070, 005.072, 005.078, 005.110, 007.105, 007.134, 007.137, 007.138, 010.090, 010.093, 017.002, 017.004, 017.101, 017.104, 020.047, 020.080, 020.094, 026.017, 026.022, 026.059, 026.060, 026.197, 027.076, 032.023, 040.053, 043.059, 044.030, 045.016, 046.010, 061.006, 061.014

Are all revelations which use the term "B'Nei Israel"

The Qur'an also states that Abraham was neither a Jew or a Christian:

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Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we are Muslims(Those that surrender to God).

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Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Taurath(Torah) and the Injeel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?

(The Injeel is the book Isa (Jesus) is said to have brought after Musa which was intended to correct the changes in the Torah.)

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Ah! Ye are those who argue in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!

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Ibrahim (Abraham) was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man, and submitted his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

(One who has Surrendered or Submitted to God is the what Muslim means, so the above says in other translations "Muslim")

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Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Ibrahim, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who believe.

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It is the wish of a portion of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray only themselves, and they do not perceive!

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Ye People of the Book! Why reject ye the Revelations of Allah, of which ye are witnesses?

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Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?

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A portion of the People of the Book say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back;

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"And believe no one unless he follows your religion." Say (to the People of the Book): "True guidance is the Guidance of Allah: (Fear ye) Lest a revelation be sent to someone (else) Like unto that which was sent unto you? or that those (Receiving such revelation) should engage you in argument before your Lord?" Say: "All bounties are in the hand of Allah: He granteth them to whom He pleaseth: And Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."

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For His Mercy He specially chooseth whom He pleaseth; for Allah is the Lord of bounties unbounded.

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Among the People of the Scripture there is he who, if thou trust him with a weight of treasure, will return it to thee. And among them there is he who, if thou trust him with a piece of gold, will not return it to thee unless thou keep standing over him. That is because they say: We have no duty to the Gentiles. They speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.

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Nay.- Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright,-verily Allah loves those who act aright.

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As for those who sell the faith they owe to Allah and their own plighted word for a small price, they shall have no portion in the Hereafter: Nor will Allah (Deign to) speak to them or look at them on the Day of Judgment, nor will He cleans them (of sin): They shall have a grievous penalty.

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There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

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It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people: "Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah's": on the contrary (He would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly."

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And he commanded you not that ye should take the angels and the prophets for lords. Would he command you to disbelieve after ye are Muslims (those who surrender to God)?

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Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

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If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors.

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Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah?-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.

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Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

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If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

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How shall Allah Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but Allah guides not a people unjust.

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Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of mankind alltogether;-

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In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be (their lot);-

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Except for those that repent (Even) after that, and make amends; for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

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But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

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As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers.

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By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well.

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All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Torah (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Torah and study it, if ye be men of truth."

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If any, after this, invent a lie and attribute it to Allah, they are indeed unjust wrong-doers.

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Say: "Allah speaketh the Truth: follow the religion of Abraham, the upright; he was not of the idolaters."

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The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bekka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:

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In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.

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Say: "O People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, when Allah is witness to all ye do?"

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Say: "O ye People of the Book! Why obstruct ye those who believe, from the path of Allah, Seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves witnesses? but Allah is not unmindful of all that ye do."

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O ye who believe! If ye obey a party of those who have received the Scripture they will make you disbelievers after your belief.

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And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of Allah, and among you Lives the Messenger? Whoever holds firmly to Allah will be shown a way that is straight.

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O ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam (surrender to God).

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And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way.

(So that was something I found in the Qur'an about the people of the Book, the Qur'an speaking to the people of the book.)

The reason some muslims state that Judaism and Christianity are equal to Islam and that all can enter paradise is because of the following revelation:

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Or would ye question your messenger as Moses was questioned aforetime? He who chooseth disbelief instead of faith, he indeed has lost the right direction of the way.

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Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.

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And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: And whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah: for Allah sees Well all that ye do.

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And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

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Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

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And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

(later it says)

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Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

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Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own.

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O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.

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Then guard yourselves against a-Day when one soul shall not avail another, nor shall compensation be accepted from her nor shall intercession profit her nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).

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And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring? He said: My covenant includeth not (any) wrong-doers.

(Basically what some people misunderstand is the Revelation that anyone who submits to God and does good and follows the straight path gets into paradise. This is true, but the Qur'an also says that those who deny the message (The Qur'an) when it comes to them will not suceed. Included in surrendering ones will to God is following the message of God, which according to God in The Qur'an, is The Qur'an.)

Some Muslims believe Jewish people will make it to paradise even if they deny the Qur'an, this is not the Qur'an's opinion.

005.044

Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

005.045

We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

005.046

And in their footsteps We sent Isa the son of Marium, confirming the Torah that had come before him: We sent him the Injeel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

005.047

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

005.048

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

005.049

So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers.

005.064

(Some of)The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up (fettered)." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His "hands" are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

005.065

If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.

005.066

And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do.

005.067

O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.

005.068

Say: O people of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

005.069

Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

005.070

We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them messengers, every time, there came to them a messenger with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they slew.

005.071

They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

005.072

They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is the Messiah the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

005.073

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

005.074

Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

005.075

The Messiah, son of Marium is but a messenger; messengers before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.

005.076

Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."

005.077

Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.

005.078

Those of the Children of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they rebelled and used to transgress.

005.079

Nor did they (usually) forbid one another the iniquities which they committed: evil indeed were the deeds which they did.

(The Qur'an says more on the subject.)

A short recap:

Food is Lawful in Islam except what was explicitly forbidden. Followers of the Hadith, man made books, have laws and traditions which are not found in the Qur'an and have no relation to the Qur'an or its message. If your muslims friends do not pray at the times prescribed in the Qur'an then they are simply not following the revelation and are eating simply because they want to eat, without any religious reasons or validation.

God, according to The Qur'an, does not accept those who deny the last message, The Qur'an. If they are any religion, they can begin following the Revelation of God, and then will be admitted into paradise and rewarded as those who did right.

Thank you SO much for asking such an excellent question! I really appreciate it! I hope you were able to read all this and I hope that you weren't offended by the above quotes. The Qur'an wants you to follow it and its revelation.

I'd love to talk to you on MSN Messenger if possible (what's your MSN Adress? or AIM, or Yahoo?) and I apologize if this post is a little long to read but I felt it was relevant.

Clarify a few things up for me, can you?

1. Depending on your point of view, how peaceful is Islam? What do you have to say about extremists?

2. On a scale between 1 and 10 (Ten being the most) how big of a role does Islam play in your life?

3. Do you have any comments about Israel and the sharing of the holy land?

Thanks, I appreciate the amount of work put in this thread. (Archive if it gets long enough?) The world is in need of people like you.

quote:Originally posted by chrome:

Clarify a few things up for me, can you?

1. Depending on your point of view, how peaceful is Islam? What do you have to say about extremists?

2. On a scale between 1 and 10 (Ten being the most) how big of a role does Islam play in your life?

3. Do you have any comments about Israel and the sharing of the holy land?

Thanks, I appreciate the amount of work put in this thread. (Archive if it gets long enough?) The world is in need of people like you.

Thank you! Excellent questions! I really appreciate them!

Islam is generally a peaceful religion. Islam means surrender to God, a Muslim is a term used as "One who has surrendered to God". Some people used to misinterpret the meaning of the word Islam and confuse it with the word Salam which means peace. A greeting among Muslims is "As Salam Alaikum" Peace be unto you.

Islam does not allow the starting of wars, hitting, shouting, or the use of foul language. It prescribes restraining anger, and advises forgiveness and charity in matters which one may have the authority to execute justice. The Qur'an does not subscribe to "An Eye for an Eye" but rather suggests that forgiveness is always better.

The Qur'an does allow self defense, shouting if in urgent need, and killing in a state of open war on a battle field in direct defense of ones own life.

The Qur'an asks people not to make mischief or chaos in the land, nor to start wars or conflicts.

The Qur'an does not allow forcing or imposing religion on others. One can only warn people, if the people disagree then this revelation applies:

109.001

Say : O ye disbelievers!

109.002

I worship not that which ye worship,

109.003

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109.004

And I shall not worship that which ye worship.

109.005

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109.006

Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

(The Qur'an suggests leaving those who disbelieve to their own ways and letting them be dealt with on Judgement Day, that no amount of convicing will ever convince those who disbelieve.)

006.109

And they swear by Allah with the strongest of their oaths, that if a sign came to them they would most certainly believe in it. Say: Signs are only with Allah; and what should make you know that when it comes they will not believe?

006.110

And We will turn their hearts and their sights, even as they did not believe in it the first time, and We will leave them in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

006.111

Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's plan. But most of them ignore (the truth).

006.112

Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them alone with their devising;

006.113

To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the hereafter: let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.

006.114

Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

006.115

The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

006.116

Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.

(The people reffered to as "Islamic Extremists" are not in fact following Islam or the Qur'an, nor are they fundamentalists or literalists of the Qur'an, they are in open disobedience of clear revelation. A True Muslim Fundamentalist, Literalist, Extremist, will follow the Qur'an and by doing so will be an example of the most upright in conduct and good behavior.)

The Qur'an even prescribes one to speak gently during an argument or a dispute.

The Qur'an does give the right to defend oneself in direct combat and on a battlefield during a time of open war. Muslims can not call or create a war on any country or people, disbelievers or believers, at any time. If a peace treaty is made one is prescribed to accept it and maintain the peace and not to break the peace. (If you require some quotes I can provide them.)

Many people use war revelations from The Qur'an to claim that Islam is a violent religion without understanding those revelations are specifically relevant to a time of open and declared war by the enemy. In times of no openly declared war, one is asked to maintain the peace, to disbelievers one can only warn them, if they disbelieve, then leave them alone.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by how big a role Islam plays in my life. One can be a muslim, man or woman, and nobody else would know save that they may seem excellent in conduct and generally nice people. I am constantly in a state of observation, I often think about God and with some observations I am reminded of revelations. People seem to still behave in the way they used to long ago, asking the same questions, thinking and saying the same sorts of things. God is what everything exists within, is made of, and is surrounded by, God is Reality, the Reality we exist within and are sustained by, in control in the fashion that not a single thing can happen unless Reality allows it. I can not deny Reality, it is all around me, in me, in you, everywhere, here and there. God is an integral part of my life and is often on my mind. I spend my day living, eating, joking, playing, and relaxing. I often help people with their issues by giving advice and providing what I can of wisdom (not always religious but with the intention of making them closer to what is straight and good). I try to pray at the times prescribed and then sometimes I also help people with their questions about Islam. I am not sure what number the religion takes in my life. In one way it is a 10 as I feel completely integrated and constantly thinking of God, dealing with God(Reality). I try to spend my time helping people in one way or another, be it making them laugh, listening to their issues and offering advice, or answering questions about religions. I'd think it is probably 10, though someone on the street or in a restaurant may have no idea about my personal beliefs. My life's mission and duty is to follow the revelations of God and to do what is right and good, for myself and for others.

In my opinion, all land is land, and all of the Worlds, and the Universe are within the Jurisdiction of God (Reality). If the Palestinians feel they are being oppressed, The Qur'an suggests that if they are able, they should migrate out of opression and return when they are strong enough to properly defend themselves, or when they wont be opressed. The Qur'an does not allow suicide or taking ones own life, nor does it allow killing those who are not in direct combat with you on a battlefield. Many muslims claim they must fight for the land of Jerusalem because of the "Dome of the Rock". The Dome of the Rock is just that, A Dome with a Rock in it. The Muslims in my opinion do have the right to secure their building from attacks directly, but no more than that. The Qur'an primarilly allows defense. My opinion is that the Israeli army has the greater military power and took over the land through military power, thus, they won fair and square. If the Palestinians are oppressed they should migrate away from oppression. If they are allowed to perform their religion peacefully and away from threats, they may stay. Palestinians may state revelations from the Qur'an dealing with fighting oppression wherever they may find it, this is in reference to the following:

002.190

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

002.191

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

002.192

But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

002.194

The prohibited month(Ramadan) for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

(The above is making reference to a time of war and a Muslim is allowed to defend themselves. In a time of open war one is allowed to defend themselves and fights, but never to be the aggressors. The above is often misused by many people for various reasons, though it is clear.)

Another misused word is Jihad. Jihad doesn't mean Holy War, but rather it means to "Strive" in the way of God. Here are most of the revelations in which the term "Strive" is used:

002.148

And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore strive to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.

002.218

Lo! those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape the persecution) and strive in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

003.114

YUSUFALI: They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they strive (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

003.142

Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who strive (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?

004.095

Those of the believers who sit still, other than those who have a (disabling) hurt, are not on an equality with those who strive in the way of Allah with their wealth and lives. Allah hath conferred on those who strive with their wealth and lives a rank above the sedentary. Unto each Allah hath promised good, but He hath bestowed on those who strive a great reward above the sedentary;

005.033

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

005.034

Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

005.035

O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed.

005.041

O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

005.042

(They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allah loveth those who judge in equity.

005.048

And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

005.054

O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

005.055

Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

005.056

As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.

005.057

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).

005.058

When ye proclaim your call to prayer they take it (but) as mockery and sport; that is because they are a people without understanding.

005.059

Say: "O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"

005.064

And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.

009.016

Or deemed ye that ye would be left (in peace) when Allah yet knoweth not those of you who strive, choosing for familiar none save Allah and His messenger and the believers? Allah is aware of what ye do.

009.020

Those who believe, and have left their homes and strove with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant.

009.041

Go forth light and heavy, and strive hard in Allah's way with your property and your persons; this is better for you, if you know.

009.044

Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask no leave of thee lest they should strive with their wealth and their lives. Allah is Aware of those who keep their duty (unto Him).

009.073

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

009.081

Those who were left behind rejoiced at sitting still behind the messenger of Allah, and were averse to striving with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way. And they said: Go not forth in the heat! Say: The fire of hell is more intense of heat, if they but understood.

009.082

Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do.

009.086

And when a surah is revealed (which saith): Believe in Allah and strive along with His messenger, the men of wealth among them still ask leave of thee and say: Suffer us to be with those who sit (at home).

009.088

But the messenger and those who believe with him strive with their wealth and their lives. Such are they for whom are the good things. Such are they who are the successful.

016.110

But verily thy Lord,- to those who leave their homes after trials and persecutions,- and who thereafter strove and struggled hard for the faith and patiently persevered,- Thy Lord, after all this is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

017.018

If any do wish for the transitory things (of this life), We readily grant them - such things as We will, to such person as We will: in the end have We provided Hell for them: they will burn therein, disgraced and rejected.

017.019

Those who do wish for the (things of) the Hereafter, and strive therefor with all due striving, and have Faith,- they are the ones whose striving is acceptable (to Allah).

017.020

Of the bounties of thy Lord We bestow freely on all- These as well as those: The bounties of thy Lord are not closed (to anyone).

017.021

See how We have bestowed more on some than on others; but verily the Hereafter is more in rank and gradation and more in excellence.

022.049

Say: "O men! I am (sent) to you only to give a Clear Warning:

022.050

"Those who believe and work righteousness, for them is forgiveness and a sustenance most generous.

022.051

"But those who strive against Our Signs, to frustrate them,- they will be Companions of the Fire."

022.078

And strive for Allah, a striving as is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

029.006

And whoever strives hard, he strives only for his own soul; most surely Allah is Self-sufficient, above (need of) the worlds.

029.007

And as for those who believe and do good works, We shall remit from them their evil deeds and shall repay them the best that they did.

029.008

And We have enjoined on man goodness to his parents, and if they contend with you that you should associate (others) with Me, of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them, to Me is your return, so I will inform you of what you did.

029.069

And those who strive for Us We will certainly guide them to our Paths: For verily Allah is with those who do right.

031.014

And We have enjoined on man (to be good) to his parents: in travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning: (hear the command), "Show gratitude to Me and to thy parents: to Me is (thy final) Goal.

031.015

"But if they strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to me (in love): in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did."

034.003

And those who disbelieve say: The hour shall not come upon us. Say: Yea! by my Lord, the Knower of the unseen, it shall certainly come upon you; not the weight of an atom becomes absent from Him, in the heavens or in the earth, and neither less than that nor greater, but (all) is in a clear book.

034.004

That He may reward those who believe and work deeds of righteousness: for such is Forgiveness and a Sustenance Most Generous."

034.005

But those who strive against Our revelations, challenging (Us), theirs will be a painful doom of wrath.

034.006

And those to whom knowledge has come see that the (Revelation) sent down to thee from thy Lord - that is the Truth, and that it guides to the Path of the Exalted (in might), Worthy of all praise.

034.037

It is not your wealth nor your sons, that will bring you nearer to Us in degree: but only those who believe and work righteousness - these are the ones for whom there is a multiplied Reward for their deeds, while secure they (reside) in the dwellings on high!

034.038

And as for those who strive against Our revelations, challenging, they will be brought to the doom.



037.061

For the like of this let all strive, who wish to strive.

047.031

And verily We shall try you till We know those of you who strive hard (for the cause of Allah) and the steadfast, and till We test your record.

049.013

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

049.014

The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

049.015

Only those are Believers who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and have never since doubted, but have striven with their belongings and their persons in the Cause of Allah: Such are the sincere ones.

060.001

O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in Allah your Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love (and friendship) with them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path.

061.011

That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew!

066.009

O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.

083.026

Whose seal is musk - for this let (all) those strive who strive for bliss -

084.006

O man! surely you must strive (to attain) to your Lord, a hard striving until you meet Him.

092.001

By the night enshrouding

092.002

And the day resplendent

092.003

And the creating of the male and the female,

092.004

Verily, (the ends) ye strive for are diverse.

092.005

As for him who giveth and is dutiful (toward Allah)

092.006

And accepts the best,

092.007

We will indeed make smooth for him the path to Bliss.

092.008

But as for him who hoardeth and deemeth himself independent,

092.009

And rejects the best,

092.010

We will indeed make smooth for him the path to Misery;

092.011

His riches will not save him when he perisheth.

092.012

Ours is it to show the way,

092.013

And lo! unto Us belong the latter portion and the former.

092.014

Therefore do I warn you of a Fire blazing fiercely;

092.015

None shall reach it but those most unfortunate ones

092.016

He who denieth and turneth away.

092.017

Far removed from it will be the righteous

092.018

Those who spend their wealth for increase in self-purification,

092.019

And have in their minds no favour from anyone for which a reward is expected in return,



092.020

But only the desire to seek for the Countenance of their Lord Most High;

092.021

And soon will they attain (complete) satisfaction.

094.001

Have We not caused thy bosom to dilate,

094.002

And eased thee of the burden

094.003

Which weighed down thy back;

094.004

And exalted thy fame?



094.005

So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief:



094.006

Verily, with every difficulty there is relief.



094.007

Therefore, when thou art free (from thine immediate task), still labour hard,

094.008

And strive to please thy Lord.

A short recap:

Islam is peaceful but allows self defense. Killing is allowed in a time of open declared war by the enemy, if peace is struck it is to be maintained. A muslim can not declare war or start a war.

Surrender to God IS the life of a true Muslim. To strive constantly in the way of God, using the revelations as a guidance and a light.

Israel is just a plot of land, God is everywhere, surrounding everything, we are existing within God, made of God, essentially, there is ONLY God. Palestinians, if they are feeling oppressed, driven out of their homes, attacked for no reason, they should emigrate out of Israel, if they are unable they should be patient.

Thank you once again for questions! I really appreciate your questions and enjoyed answering them all! From what I can, I sense that you are a good person, and I like you alot! I would like to add you to my MSN Messenger list if you have MSN Messenger, if you have AIM, or Yahoo Messenger, I'd also like to add you there!

Once again Thank you SO Much for your questions, I really appreciate them! I am very glad you are watching this topic. Thank You for the compliments! If you have any other questions feel free to ask at any time! If you need some more clearification on things, feel free to ask! I hope these answers satisfied! I hope we talk on MSN, AIM, or YAHOO soon!

Any other questions?

Like i said in my previous post, that i was interested in going out with a muslim women, which you replied with basicly i have to be muslim myself etc etc. (not that im going to) but out of curiosity, what does one have todo before they are accepted as muslim?

quote:Originally posted by merkury4:

Like i said in my previous post, that i was interested in going out with a muslim women, which you replied with basicly i have to be muslim myself etc etc. (not that im going to) but out of curiosity, what does one have todo before they are accepted as muslim?

Excellent question! Traditionally all that is required to "convert" is the "Shahadah" This is the following statement "La illah ha il lillah, Muhammed urasul Allah" There is No God but God, Muhammed is his messenger. This is the tradition from the Hadith and is not found in the Qur'an. To be a Muslim according to the Qur'an you have to believe in its message, study it if you can, follow the "straight path" detailed in its revelations and prescriptions, do good, and be an upright and excellent person who has Surrendered and Submitted to God.

God is Islam is not a God within Reality or a humanoid figure somewhere in space, but rather what encompasses everything, what everything is within, made of, existing by, what manifested all the possibilities we have available, what was always there, what is undeniable, in control : The Reality.

God in Islam is "Reality". (I posted a little about this in another topic called something like "Why can't I see God?")

No one would really need to know you are a muslim, or would be able to tell you are a muslim, save that you would be exemplary in your actions, a nice person doing good, who is humble and upright in action.

Feel free to ask anything else in relation to this or other areas! Thank you for your excellent questions, I really appreciate them!

Any other questions? Feel free to ask!

Abrahim(Avraham),

I do not have MSN, because I detest Microsoft, however if you have AIM or ICQ, Id be happy to talk with you. My AIM account is sharule46.

Salaam/Shalom

Thank You! See You There!

Any other questions?

Does anyone get resurrected in the Qu' ran?

I am the re-incarnation of Jesus Christ. God has not spoken with me himself- nor let out any cues of his direct exsistence. Sure I have witnessed paranormal activity such as the stopping of time and crap like that where all my friends just get confused and nobody ever believes us that it happends. I want to know if you can send me a quran?

Ever since I was a baby I have felt uncomfortable/ choking feeling in my chest and bad vibes whenever I have been in church. I have always gone to christian churches. What is the greater evil connected to church?

Why did god let us become circumsized?

Why does god let children die?

Why has god abandoned us?

Why did god make our anuses so fragile?

In the Quran does god come to earth like he does in the bible?

When does the Quran believe the son of god will reside among us?

Does the Quran believe in an arch-angel?

Why do men have hairy nipples?

Why do cats and dogs look so ugly without fur?

Does the Quran mention cancer?

Is god considered flawless in the quran? If so why does he create flawed creations?

Why are some people mentally retarded?

Why do women have hairy legs?

Why did god make sloths?

Did unicorns ever exsist?

What does god do for fun?

Father Abraham, why have you foresaken me?





[This message has been edited by VegetaRobGT (edited 05-22-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by VegetaRobGT:

Ever since I was a baby I have felt uncomfortable/ choking feeling in my chest and bad vibes whenever I have been in church. I have always gone to christian churches. What is the greater evil connected to church?

Why did god let us become circumsized?

Why does god let children die?

Why has god abandoned us?

Why did god make our anuses so fragile?

In the Quran does god come to earth like he does in the bible?

When does the Quran believe the son of god will reside among us?

Does the Quran believe in an arch-angel?

Why do men have hairy nipples?

Why do cats and dogs look so ugly without fur?

Does the Quran mention cancer?

Is god considered flawless in the quran? If so why does he create flawed creations?

Why are some people mentally retarded?

Why do women have hairy legs?

Why did god make sloths?

Did unicorns ever exsist?

What does god do for fun?

Father Abraham, why have you foresaken me?





1. Saying that God, Reality, The All Powerful, Has a Son.

2.The Qur'an never tells people to get circumsized, it indicates evil one changing their form their cutting parts of (unless in medical need).

3.God, Reality, has a whole gamut of options, from Children dying to worse things, why? All possibilities must serve their reactive function.

4.If God(Reality) had "abandoned" you, you wouldn't exist.

5.I think it has some connection with the function of an Anus.

6.No, God is not a Man, or in the Image of Man, Nor does God come to Earth in an Incarnation. God is Reality, what we exist within, what everything is made of, we are encompassed and surrounded.

7.God has no sons, is beyond sons, is not the type of thing that has sons. The Son of Reality? God is One, essentially, all that exists, we are all a part of it.

8.The Qur'an mentions two creatures other than humans and animals, those are the Maliaka, and Jinnath. Maliaka are "Angels" but really just Messengers, they are not made out of the same material as humans or Jinnath.

9.I'm not sure all men do, but it has something to do with our evolution and hair appearing to conceal apparently or protect sensitive areas maybe?

10.Probably not aesthetically pleasing because what we are used to seeing.

11.The Qur'an mentions that some people are caused to waste away.

12.Reality is without flaws. Nothing is "flawed". Does your computer screen suddenly go *zip* and dissapear right infront of you? Everything is smooth and flawless about our universe and its operation.

13.Everyone serves their function in relation to others and themselves, those who are retarded, the cause is because of various factors, the test is for them and those around them to learn, to understand, to help, there is a whole gamut of functions.

14.I guess its some form of protection again.

15.Sloths serve some function in the eco system...really...slowly.

16.I'm not sure if unicorns exist or the writers who wrote about them were reffering to some of the animals that do exist and could be interpreted as a unicorn.

17.What does "Reality" Do for fun? I don't think it does anything for "fun" since it is not a human.

18.I haven't forsaken you my son! I just gotta kill you on the alter cause I saw it in a dream...lets hope a lamb comes in your place!

Haven't got any questions but thanks for the insight into Islam it was very interesting

quote:Originally posted by the_general:

Haven't got any questions but thanks for the insight into Islam it was very interesting

Thanks a million for taking a look!

Do you have MSN Messenger, AIM, or YAHOO? I've been trying to get lots of people from Totse who are interested in these sorts of things onto my list!

yah i'll add you

quote:Originally posted by the_general:

yah i'll add you

abrahimesker@hotmail.com or abrahimtotse@hotmail.com thanks!

Any Questions? Anything you would like to ask or clear up?

The majority of people with red hair are muslim (Uzbeks, Turkmens, kazaks, kyrgyz, Tajiks, Chechen, Inguchetians, a lot of Syrians and Palestinians).

Red haired people are evil: FACT

So why isn't Islam evil?

Let me just say that this is one of the most informative things I've ever read. I'd like to thank Abrahim and Dynasty for providing such a profound insight in the most civilized manner. Even digital savious, our most "knowledgable" christian uses scorn and disdain to force her message to us, yet you guys do nothing more than ask questions and answer them very well. I don't have questions at the moment, but I will be asking them later. Also, I ordered a book from www.freequran.org (http://www.freequran.org) a couple months back, and I don't think it's the actual quran. It's just titled "the meaning of the illustrious quran." Is this the real thing or am I not worthy of getting a real book?

Have you ever wondered if you, and by extension the religion which you make your personal philosophy, were completely full of shit? Bogus. Total bullshit.

Just wondering. Has it ever crossed your mind? That just maybe you are delusional, and your beliefs are without any merit whatsoever? Thanks.

why doesn't the quran ban all red meat if it is so bad for the body? btw pork isn't as bad as some of the other meats either

http://www.porkandhealth.org/allaboutpork/nutrition/nutriCompares.htm

Anywho here is my view on Islam:

I think the quran is just a law book with a bunch of facts that arabic people knew at the time. The Beoudin (spelling?) people were traders and Mohammad was too. He probably got many ideas from Christianity and Judaism but wanted to add some of his own views in order to establish his kingdom. So, he made up a bunch of shit about an angel who talked to him and spread the word about his

meeting.

By the way, don't forget he used violence to spread Islam. Doesn't that go against your beliefs or something? I mean what kind of dumb ass fuck is gay enough to kill people who didn't believe him? Did Moses do that? No, he warned the dudes in Egypt to free his people. Did Jesus do that? No, he was crucified.

If you want a code of ethics to believe in, stop fucking smoking, drinking, and doing shit that's bad for you... it's fucking common sense. Jerking off isn't bad and eating a fucking piece of bacon won't kill you any more than eating steak every damn day. If you want facts about the universe and how things revolve around you, pick up a damn science book. There were thousands of accurate scientific theories and shit before the damn quran but those people didn't use that as an excuse to make a Torah v 3.0

To Ruzhky:

I didn't know that the majority of red haired people are Muslim.

The coloration of ones hair decides their actions? lol sweet.

Islam and the message of the Qur'an is not evil. The color of the hair of those who claim to follow the religion does not make the religion itself evil, what they do is on them.

To Zay:

Thank you SO much for taking the time to read the questions and replies in this topic, I really appreciate the fact that you took the time to look through, and furthermore, I am so glad that you feel this is one of the most informative things you have ever read.

If I don't already have you on my MSN Messenger list, or AIM, or Yahoo, I would like to add you there please.

I wrote about the use of scorn and disdain in one of my posts in Jar's Mormonism Question and Answer topic.

I was checking into the Free Qur'an and it is the real Qur'an, in english, but the translation is very confusing, the translation I prefer is by YUSUFALI.

Here is a free Qur'an online with 3 english translations in a row for every verse: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

(If you scroll down all the chapters are listed, 3 the translations allow for cross referencing, I don't agree, nor does the Qur'an agree with what they wrote on the explanation above the chapter list.)

You are very much worthy of getting the real book!

Thanks again! I hope we talk on MSN, AIM, or YAHOO soon!

To Viraljimmy:

My God is not something that I feel can be disputed about. My God is Reality, what we exist within, what all the possible things that can happen, that we can do, that we can possibly think, exist within. What we are all made of and completely dependant on. It is not something that is easy for me to deny, denying Reality would be denying myself and everything inside me and around me.

To kramer3d:

There is a book, not connected at all with Islam, called "Eat Right 4 Your Blood Type", it is based on Dr.D'Adamo's personal studies, his fathers research, and research of Japanese scientists. The Only food mentioned to be reactive to absolutely ALL blood types is Pork, Beef was something O and B blood types can have but A and AB reacte to. The following is from Dr. Peter D'Adamo's website in relation to your question:

"Thursday, July 19th

No Bacon For Any Blood Type?

QUESTION: Why is pork an avoid for all blood types?

ANSWER: Pigs (like most non-humans) induce xenoreactive antibodies which in turn upregulate our own anti-ABO antibodies (the isohemagglutinins). This antigen in pigs, galactose alpha-(1-3) galactose, is apparently the target for these antibodies (which all adult humans have.) Though found in many mammals, pig xenoreactive antigens are probably more potent than most, since virtually every human carries antibodies to pork. Indeed, in every patient on whom I've ever tested blood group antibody levels, and who was a big pork consumer, the levels of antibody titer were always elevated.

Peter on 07.19.04 @ 07:51 AM CST"

He is not a Muslim or a member of Judaism. Beef isn't bad for every human, pork is.

There is not much verifiable, or any verifiable history from the period that the Qur'an appeared. The history of the life and times of Muhammed was written over 200 years after his death by people who never knew or met him, people who had recently converted to the new religion and were formerly of older religions, they sought to bring in parts of their old traditions into the new one with stories about the Prophet.

The Qur'an is written as if it is directly speaking to Muhammed and giving him instructions. The Qur'an suggests Muhammed has absolutely no knowledge, it corrects him on occasion, and he sometimes doubts his own sanity. It is a common myth that Violence was used to spread Islam: "Islam was spread by the Sword" but in fact most nations if not all became muslims peacefully. Christians and Jews have lived under Muslim rule peacefully in Palestine and Spain as well as other nations, they were not oppressed. Hinduism was allowed to exist under the Moghul rule in India, in China, during its "Golden Period" Muslim rule allowed culture to flourish in the area and did not restrict any other religion. In the Turkish Empire, the Turks taxed non muslims an extra fee (I don't agree with their decision) and most converted for tax purposes, but by the time this event occured Islam had already moved away from the Qur'an and was now following man made conjecture in the Hadith.

If a person follows the Qur'an, they are not allowed to start wars or make first attacks, only direct self defense is allowed or in an open battlefield during a time of open war. The wars mentioned in the Qur'an are in reference to an opposition made up by the majority of Polytheists and Athiests, who declared open war and began battle, Muslims were then given permission to defend themselves. The Qur'an makes reference to Muhammed and makes it clear that he is very much averse to war.

The history you believe in is based on writings that were written, composed, and thought of over 200 years after events, nobody knows what really happened back then, the Qur'an gives some clues.

According to the Hebrew Bible, Moses and the Children of Israel, the Tribes, made war with Canaan. There are several wars mentioned in the Hebrew Bible in relation to Prophets. The history of the Hebrew Bible and the one the Qur'an provides is a little different. The Qur'an's historical timeline could be easily prior to when the Jewish Timeline places events. This may also help to explain how the Babylonians, prior to Moses, have a story very much resembling his. These stories being much older than Babylon, occuring prior. The Qur'an never says Musa (Moses) was in Egypt, but instead uses the term "Civilization". When the Qur'an wants to say something, it uses the correct name, for Jew it uses the Hebrew term for Jew "Yahudi" and when it says Children of Israel reffering to the old African tribe it refers to them properly by the Hebrew term "B'nei Israel" and when it says Rome, it says "ROME" in Arabic. I do not believe Jesus(Isa) was in Roman times, nor that Musa was in Egypt, I do believe they were prior. There is no proof of either of them existing in the times they are typically placed.

The Qur'an mostly focuses on Common sense and all its prescriptions and reccomendations are for the individual, to better themselves, the Qur'an even clearly mentions it.

According to the Qur'an, the message has always been the same but is often denied or later corrupted. The Qur'an is the final in a series of 5 books to mankind inspired in Prophets. The first given to Abraham, Zabur of Dawuud (David), The Taurath of Musa (Moses), The Injeel of Isa (Jesus), The Qur'an of (Mu)Ahmad (Muhammed). The Qur'an being the final book, the complete message in it. Muhammed being the "seal of Prophets" meaning the final Prophet. the complete message in it. The oldest copy of the Qur'an in Arabic is identicle to the newest in Arabic.

The Qur'an confirms and repeats the messages that came before it, and has the knowledge in it, the messages prior all having been either lost, edited, corrupted, or not followed. This is the message and the warning, those who turn away after having been warned, the loss is their own.

010.108

Say: "O mankind! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not a warder over you.

010.109

Follow thou the inspiration sent unto thee, and be patient till Allah should give judgment, and He is the best of the judges.

Loc Dogg replies to tha muslims can't drink with he doesn't wants to act like an idiot etc. etc.

But muslims CAN drink right? I thought the only rule was that you may not be intoxicated (or under any other influnce, since you're mind must be clear) when you pray to allah, right?

A question: what is your vision on the shariah?

[This message has been edited by Fza (edited 05-25-2006).]

This isn't exactly a question on Islam, but if the quran forbids smoking, then why are hukahs and sheesha so abundant in arab culture? msn: lil_zay@msn.com

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

It is a common myth that Violence was used to spread Islam: "Islam was spread by the Sword" but in fact most nations if not all became muslims peacefully. Christians and Jews have lived under Muslim rule peacefully in Palestine and Spain as well as other nations, they were not oppressed. Hinduism was allowed to exist under the Moghul rule in India, in China, during its "Golden Period" Muslim rule allowed culture to flourish in the area and did not restrict any other religion. In the Turkish Empire, the Turks taxed non muslims an extra fee (I don't agree with their decision) and most converted for tax purposes, but by the time this event occured Islam had already moved away from the Qur'an and was now following man made conjecture in the Hadith.

If a person follows the Qur'an, they are not allowed to start wars or make first attacks, only direct self defense is allowed or in an open battlefield during a time of open war. The wars mentioned in the Qur'an are in reference to an opposition made up by the majority of Polytheists and Athiests, who declared open war and began battle, Muslims were then given permission to defend themselves. The Qur'an makes reference to Muhammed and makes it clear that he is very much averse to war.

The history you believe in is based on writings that were written, composed, and thought of over 200 years after events, nobody knows what really happened back then, the Qur'an gives some clues.

It is a myth? If you call what we currently know about World History a myth then what is written in the Quran is a myth as well. Mohammad DID resort to violence to spread his word. The majority of the arabs during his time were polytheistic and did not emphasize religion. They saw Mohammad as a threat to their society and their commerce. For this reason, he started a holy war and killed people because of refuted his believes. But he didn't stop there, he just kept on killing and kept on expanding his empire.

I will comment on the rest later

quote:Originally posted by kramer3d:

It is a myth? If you call what we currently know about World History a myth then what is written in the Quran is a myth as well. Mohammad DID resort to violence to spread his word. The majority of the arabs during his time were polytheistic and did not emphasize religion. They saw Mohammad as a threat to their society and their commerce. For this reason, he started a holy war and killed people because of refuted his believes. But he didn't stop there, he just kept on killing and kept on expanding his empire.

I will comment on the rest later

I'm very happy you met Muhammed.

"Sources for Muhammad's life

Main article: Historiography of early Islam

Most biographical sources of Muhammad were written by Muslims and were recorded in writing centuries after his death. There are only fragmentary and late references in non-Muslim historical records from the 7th century, and no inscriptions or archaeological remains from that time.

The dates often given for Muhammad's life are 570-632 CE. The earliest biography known is the Life of the Apostle of God, by Ibn Ishaq who was born about 717 and died in 767. He thus wrote his biography well over 100 years after Muhammad died. He would not have been able to speak to any eyewitnesses, only to those who had heard their accounts, or accounts of their accounts. Furthermore, we possess Ibn Ishaq's work only in fragments quoted in a compilation of anecdotes and traditions composed by Islamic historian Ibn Hisham(???-834) and al-Tabari (838-923).

Other sources for biographies of Muhammad are: the military chronicles of Waqidi (745-822), the biographies of Ibn Sa'd (783-845), a student of Waqidi, later histories, Quranic commentaries, and the collections of oral traditions known as hadith. These texts were recorded more than a century, and often several centuries, after the death of Muhammad. There are some passages in the Qur'an that are believed to shed some light on Muhammad's biography, however, they require a great deal of interpretation to be useful.

Some skeptical scholars (Wansbrough, Cook, Crone, and others) have raised doubts about the reliability of the Islamic sources, especially the hadith collections. They believe that many hadith, and other traditions, were manufactured, or doctored, to support one or another of the many political or doctrinal factions that had developed within Islam in its first century or later. The life of Muhammad was believed to be the exemplar for all Muslims; hence the importance of showing that Muhammad said or did something proving that a particular faction was right. If the skeptics are right, and much of the early material cannot really be trusted, then all that is factually known is what is contained in the summary above."

But since you were there, your version of history is very hard to deny!

The history is unverifiable, if Muhammed threatened the commerce of the Arabs, why wouldnt the Arabs start the war? That is what the Qur'an says they did, it gave believers the right to defend themselves. It clearly says not to start wars within the text. The Qur'an is actually from the time, it could be that what it says is not true, that is only conjecture, but it makes sense that if the Polytheistic peoples trade and commerce was threatened, that they would fight it.





[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 05-25-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

Drink? Why? So I can stumble around and slur my words like an idiot, say something stupid and get bashed or end up dying because I thought it would be fun to climb up a tree, but fall off and break my neck? Get behind the wheel of a car and die? Alcohol is a plaque on society. It is banned under Islam for many reasons, and the bad reasons greatly outweigh the good. I know people that drink responsibly, but how many do you know have done stupid shit because of alcohol? They outnumber the safe drinkers greatly, don't they?

Kill? killing is wrong, duh. Unless in self defence, or revenge for a murder.

Smoking is fine. I'm a smoker.

Not have sex? Allah loves it when married couples have lots of sweaty passionate sex. Sex out of wedlock can lead to many problems. It doesn't always, but it can.

Muslims are raised in a completely different world. What you think is fun, we look down upon. What we think is good, you think is crazy.

Surely that means people who would be responsible and drink or shag in moderation are the ones being punished..

Abrahim, surely you don't think the Mughals and Mongols or whatever were good muslims... they destroyed many buddhist temples in India and looted them for what reason? One of the main reasons Islam spread was because many merchants in Africa, Eurasia, and Southeast Asia converted to Islam for closer contacts with the Muslim traders. Other places like spain have a muslim minority in which Christians dominated the region. Surely if your religion was so tolerant there would be more christians/jews/hindus living in Saudia Arabia no?

quote:Originally posted by kramer3d:

Abrahim, surely you don't think the Mughals and Mongols or whatever were good muslims... they destroyed many buddhist temples in India and looted them for what reason? One of the main reasons Islam spread was because many merchants in Africa, Eurasia, and Southeast Asia converted to Islam for closer contacts with the Muslim traders. Other places like spain have a muslim minority in which Christians dominated the region. Surely if your religion was so tolerant there would be more christians/jews/hindus living in Saudia Arabia no?

Hinduism has never existed in Saudi Arabia, Jews, Christians, Hindus, do live and work in Saudi Arabia and the neighboring nations. What Saudi Arabia or any one nation or individual does, is a reflection of themselves and their decided actions.

The Qur'an is tolerant of religions to the point that, if one cannot convince them, to leave them alone. The Qur'an is not accepting of those who deny its revelation, though it suggests to leave them if they turn away, this I've demonstrated in quotes above.

hindus aren't allowed to worship in Saudi Arabia.



Any other questions?

quote:Originally posted by kramer3d:

hindus aren't allowed to worship in Saudi Arabia.



Any other questions?

lol I think more accurately, Hindus aren't able to worship at Mecca, as they also aren't allowed to worship in a Jewish Temple, but are allowed to worship in placed designated for worship of their Gods. I do believe they are allowed to worship in the privacy of their hotel rooms or apartments if they are working there. Besides any of that, what does the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's Laws and Policies have to do with the Qur'an and Islam? Does the Qur'an ban, for those who believe, Idol worship? Yes. Does the Bible? Yes. If you are a ruling party in a nation, and believed in a revelation that banned idol worship, would you allow idols in places designated for worship of God? Probably not. Does what Saudi Arabia does, or any individual who claims to be muslim, effect the words in the Qur'an? No, you can read those for yourself.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ This is the complete Qur'an, in 3 english translations in a row for every verse. Feel free to scroll down and go straight to the chapters or randomly click one of the chapters to see what it says.

What Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabians, or Any Individual who calls themselves muslims Do, does not effect the words and message in the Qur'an.

What happens to good people who reject Allah? Do they get to go to heaven?

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

What happens to good people who reject Allah? Do they get to go to heaven?

The Judgement is up to God. According to the Qur'an it is an individuals own loss who rejects God.

First of all I would like to thank you Abrahim for taking the time to teach people about our religion and defending it amazingly, you do a great job http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif).

There is something that concerns me though, you don't follow the hadiths. I'd just like to say that yes the hadiths may not be true or accurate but there are islamic scientists out there who have dedicated their whole lives in studying these hadiths and verifying which ones are true and which ones are not.

They can tell which ones are true because there are numerous accounts of a hadith told by many different people, and they all coincide with each other, slightly differing in wording sometimes, but the same message being said.

The quran should be the basis of the islamic religion, but the hadiths are sometimes needed to verify the minor issues.

Some things I noticed you were saying:-

* a man is allowed only 1 wife

- Actually, allowed 4, and by the way, this was a restriction!. after the second battle with Quraish, there were many male casualties, and many wives left widowed, without support. Mohammed (PBUH) therefore allowed men to marry up to four wives to take these women in, providing the can treat all their wives equally (same time spent together, same gifts, same money spent on each).

*women do not have to wear head scarves.

- they do, all the prophet's wives did, and in a hadith he said that women should wear head scarves. Covering the face is not necessary, thats mainly tradition or ignorence.

One more thing, the prophet did marry aisha who was 12 at the time. but that doesnt mean he was a pedophile. girls hit puberty by the age of 8 so technically she was a women. In the Usa it is considered being a pedophile, but back then, it wasnt, it was normal, even in many cultures this is normal. (my grandma was 15 when she married, and my grandpa 17).

One of the reasons Mohammed (PBUH) married aisha at this age, was so that he could teach her all about the islamic faith and she could take note in all his hadiths. she was a fast learner and always questioned the prophet's sayings. After the prophet (PBUH) passed away, she remained a long time after to teach the people what he taught her.

The hadiths were also lessons in life, some of them advice on what to do and stuff like that when such and such problems arise.

PS - when a donkey in solitary cries, it does mean he saw a jinn.

What of anti-semitism?

quote:Originally posted by Pyro_q8:

First of all I would like to thank you Abrahim for taking the time to teach people about our religion and defending it amazingly, you do a great job http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif).

There is something that concerns me though, you don't follow the hadiths. I'd just like to say that yes the hadiths may not be true or accurate but there are islamic scientists out there who have dedicated their whole lives in studying these hadiths and verifying which ones are true and which ones are not.

They can tell which ones are true because there are numerous accounts of a hadith told by many different people, and they all coincide with each other, slightly differing in wording sometimes, but the same message being said.

The quran should be the basis of the islamic religion, but the hadiths are sometimes needed to verify the minor issues.

Some things I noticed you were saying:-

* a man is allowed only 1 wife

- Actually, allowed 4, and by the way, this was a restriction!. after the second battle with Quraish, there were many male casualties, and many wives left widowed, without support. Mohammed (PBUH) therefore allowed men to marry up to four wives to take these women in, providing the can treat all their wives equally (same time spent together, same gifts, same money spent on each).

*women do not have to wear head scarves.

- they do, all the prophet's wives did, and in a hadith he said that women should wear head scarves. Covering the face is not necessary, thats mainly tradition or ignorence.

One more thing, the prophet did marry aisha who was 12 at the time. but that doesnt mean he was a pedophile. girls hit puberty by the age of 8 so technically she was a women. In the Usa it is considered being a pedophile, but back then, it wasnt, it was normal, even in many cultures this is normal. (my grandma was 15 when she married, and my grandpa 17).

One of the reasons Mohammed (PBUH) married aisha at this age, was so that he could teach her all about the islamic faith and she could take note in all his hadiths. she was a fast learner and always questioned the prophet's sayings. After the prophet (PBUH) passed away, she remained a long time after to teach the people what he taught her.

The hadiths were also lessons in life, some of them advice on what to do and stuff like that when such and such problems arise.

PS - when a donkey in solitary cries, it does mean he saw a jinn.

The Qur'an is a book in which the message is completed and perfected:

010.015

But when Our Clear Revelations are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

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And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,

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We should certainly seize him by his right hand,

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And then severed his life-artery,

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Nor could any of you withhold him

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He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

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This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.

The Hadiths are man made, no matter if an army of one thousand people agree and repeat its stories, it does not make them true, just as many more may recite in congregation, blasphemy about the nature of God or other things. The Hadiths are man made conjecture, those who collected the story were not present, nor were their parents.

The Hadith are not required, the Qur'an is the Knowledge, The Guidance, and the Light to mankind.

Muhammed knew nothing save what the Qur'an told him.

Here is what the Qur'an says about 4 wives:

004.001

O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single being, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.

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To orphans restore their property (When they reach their age), nor substitute (your) worthless things for (their) good ones; and devour not their substance (by mixing it up) with your own. For this is indeed a great sin.

004.003

If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

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And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.

004.005

To those weak of understanding Make not over your property, which Allah hath made a means of support for you, but feed and clothe them therewith, and speak to them words of kindness and justice.

004.006

Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.

004.007

From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large,-a determinate share.

The Qur'an does not say that women or men should cover their hair:

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Say to the believing men that they should make modest their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

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And say to the believing women that they shouldmake modest their gaze and guard their privates; that they should not display their ornaments except what ( appear thereof; that they should draw their coverings over their bosoms and not display their ornaments except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

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Marry those among you who are single, and the virtuous ones among yourselves; (This applies to) male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.

(A Woman can not marry a man who has a wife, a man can not marry a woman who has a husband. They must be single and virtuous.)

There is no mention in the Qur'an in reference to anyone, or the prophet marrying a 12 year old. The composers of the Hadith were not present, the Qur'an was, it was not mentioned. The Qur'an put a ban on the opening that the Prophet could marry anyone, there was a time limit to it:

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O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

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Thou mayest defer (the turn of) any of them that thou pleasest, and thou mayest receive any thou pleasest: and there is no blame on thee if thou invite one whose (turn) thou hadst set aside. This were nigher to the cooling of their eyes, the prevention of their grief, and their satisfaction - that of all of them - with that which thou hast to give them: and Allah knows (all) that is in your hearts: and Allah is All-Knowing, Most Forbearing.

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It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things.

The Qur'an provides all the lessons and guidance we need to make accurate and proper judgement. The Hadith are man made conjecture:

"Most biographical sources of Muhammad were written by Muslims and were recorded in writing centuries after his death. There are only fragmentary and late references in non-Muslim historical records from the 7th century, and no inscriptions or archaeological remains from that time.

The dates often given for Muhammad's life are 570-632 CE. The earliest biography known is the Life of the Apostle of God, by Ibn Ishaq who was born about 717 and died in 767. He thus wrote his biography well over 100 years after Muhammad died. He would not have been able to speak to any eyewitnesses, only to those who had heard their accounts, or accounts of their accounts. Furthermore, we possess Ibn Ishaq's work only in fragments quoted in a compilation of anecdotes and traditions composed by Islamic historian Ibn Hisham(???-834) and al-Tabari (838-923).

Other sources for biographies of Muhammad are: the military chronicles of Waqidi (745-822), the biographies of Ibn Sa'd (783-845), a student of Waqidi, later histories, Quranic commentaries, and the collections of oral traditions known as hadith. These texts were recorded more than a century, and often several centuries, after the death of Muhammad. There are some passages in the Qur'an that are believed to shed some light on Muhammad's biography, however, they require a great deal of interpretation to be useful.

Some skeptical scholars (Wansbrough, Cook, Crone, and others) have raised doubts about the reliability of the Islamic sources, especially the hadith collections. They believe that many hadith, and other traditions, were manufactured, or doctored, to support one or another of the many political or doctrinal factions that had developed within Islam in its first century or later. The life of Muhammad was believed to be the exemplar for all Muslims; hence the importance of showing that Muhammad said or did something proving that a particular faction was right. If the skeptics are right, and much of the early material cannot really be trusted, then all that is factually known is what is contained in the summary above."

There is nothing in the Qur'an that indicates that animals can even see Jinnath, it never says that a donkey braying (its mode of communication) is an indication of a Jinn. Since the Qur'an has not provided this knowledge, no one knows, save by conjecture and their own inventions. Nor, from what I can tell of the Prophet from the Qur'an, would he make such a suggestion as he had no knowledge of such things unless the Qur'an told him.

The Prophet was just a regular man, a good man according to the Qur'an, but not one with any advanced knowledge or greater knowledge of the revelations, only God guided him through the Qur'an, it was what he followed, here are some occasions where he was corrected by the Qur'an:

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O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy wives. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

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Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.

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It is for Us to collect it and to recite it:

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But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital

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Nay more, it is for Us to explain it

*004.003

If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

- umm doesn't that mean a man is allowed to marry up to 4 wives?

*024.031

And say to the believing women that they shouldmake modest their gaze and guard their privates; that they should not display their ornaments except what ( appear thereof; that they should draw their coverings over their bosoms and not display their ornaments

-Women at that time did wear headscarves, they did cover their hair before islam. The "coverings" were the headscarves. Women would wear headscarves but had their breasts bare, so in the Surra it says to use those coverings to allso cover their breasts. therefore women were supposed to cover their hair too.

The people who hear the prophet's quotes were the sahabaa, his must trusted and closest companions, they included his closest friends including abu bakir al sideeq, the first man to believe him.

If you have accounts of a story told by many different people that are all similiar, then it would be pretty ignorent to classify it as false or never happening.

The prophet had "niyaa", he did not say things or make up his own rules own his own, god gave him a message in his head to say those things.

So God made him make mistakes to correct him in the Qur'an? Besides the Revelation, Muhammed had no other communication with God, without the guidance of the Qur'an he would be lost.

In the case of Orphans and Property it seems that one is allowed to marry up to 4, but this is in connection to Orphans only and may be reffering to marrying the Orphans to these, as the whole revelation is in reference to Orphans and mentions letting them get the estate at the "marrying age". In any case which ever way it is interpreted, it is in reference to Orphans and being incapable of dealing with Orphans justly and thus having to perform this, though 1 is better. Furthermore, the Qur'an clearly states as a I demonstrated above:

To marry those who are single, and virtuous: (rule applies to) Men and Women. A Married man can not marry another women, that is adultry, he must be single in order for her to marry him.

Prove to me that in that time the women wore headscarfs, furthermore, if they did, where in the Qur'an does it tell women to cover their hair? The Hair is something apparent, but it states the obvious fact: To cover the breasts and private parts. To be modest.

What is known about the collection of the Hadiths is they were collected and written based on oral tradition a few centuries after events. Stories related from person to person to person to person, if you have ever played the "Telephone" game even sitting on a small table, one message to the next person around the table will soon end up different than the original. But that is an excuse I do not even give the Hadiths. They are not from God, nor should they claim to be from God, The Qur'an is the Only Hadith. Full of Knowledge directly from the source. I demonstrated above that Muhammed was a good man but still a human, making mistakes which he was corrected for, he was not the Acting will of God, and the Qur'an made clear that the Explanation will be left to God, not Muhammed: This is because he didn't know more than the Qur'an told him. God did NOT Have any dialogue with Muhammed outside of the Qur'an, the Qur'an is the whole of the message and it is self aware of this fact.

Should women bring attention to themselves by wearing covers over their hair when it is not mentioned in the revelation? No. Should women be modest and decent and cover their breasts and privates and not make a wanton display? Yes, for their betterment.

All restrictions, and what is allowed, are for the Individuals Own Benefit. Religion is for the person, their growth, and themselves. God does not profit in the least from any following it, God is self sufficient, the individual profits from following it, in this life, and after ressurection.

I agree, the Prophet did not make up rules on his own. The Qur'an told him exactly what to say and to who. If the Qur'an didn't say it, Muhammed didn't say it, the Hadiths are nothing but unrequired conjecture, man made, the words of men. The Qur'an is the message from God, it is complete, it is a guidance.

Muhammed recieved no messages in his head that are not in the Qur'an. The Qur'an makes clear in the above revelation that the Recital and Explanation of it is From God, and in The Qur'an. When the word was spoken it was not Muhammed speaking, thus it told him not to hasten his tongue to make with words.

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Or do they say, "He is possessed"? Nay, he has brought them the Truth, but most of them hate the Truth.

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If the Truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth, and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption! Nay, We have sent them their reminder, but they turn away from their reminder.

Here is an email I wrote a Muslim convert who was debating this point with me and claiming the Qur'an's message is not clear, though it says itself that it is clear (and it is!):

I believe that the prophet followed the Qur'an alone. The Qur'an corrects the prophet on a few occassions, proving that without God, the prophet has absolutely no knowledge of anything by himself. The Prophet only knew what God told him in the Qur'an. This is proven on the instances that The Prophet was corrected after making mistakes. The Qur'an is a complete book, fully coherent, no errors, accurate, a book of truth. It is self explanitory and simple to understand, speaking directly and to the point. The Hadith are man made books, composed by human beings who have no knowledge. While God and God's information is COMPLETE and PURE. Following the Prophet is following the Qur'an, not following books about the prophet that have no proof or verification in what they say. God does not give half messages and then lets human beings write stories about it. It's not just some random happening that I meet your nephew (I don't even know how or where or when) and through him I meet you. I am here to tell you straight, follow the Qur'an alone, it is complete. If its not in the Qur'an, God didn't say it. No one but God has the authority or sanction to say things and make laws, and the prophet only said what the Qur'an told him, only followed the Qur'an. Follow the Qur'an and don't let anyone tell you to divert yourself by confusion with man made books. There is One Allah, Allahs book is the Qur'an, it is Complete, It is all you need.

I'd like if you could come on msn please!

As Salam Alaikum! It didn't seem like you were believing what I was tellin ya so here are some revelations from the Qur'an that might work better. I know you're a good guy and that's why God chose you to reveal the message, and why God wants you to improve and be more on the straight path. It might be nice if you don't skim this long email as it is quoting the Qur'an and worth the read. Enjoy!

(6:114-116)

Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.

Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie.

______________________________God is the Judge, The Lawmaker.

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frowned and turned away,

Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).

But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow

Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?

As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,

To him dost thou attend;

Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not.

But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,

And with fear,

Of him wast thou unmindful.

By no means! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:

Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.

_____________________________The Prophet (pbuh) Made an Error. Follow the Qur'an.

066.001

O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy wives. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

____________________________Another error. Only God gives knowledge.



025.030 - 31

Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."

Even so have We appointed unto every prophet an opponent from among the guilty; but Allah sufficeth for a Guide and Helper.

____________________________Allah is Sufficient as Guide and Helper.

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Say: I am not the first of the messengers, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner.

_____________________I do not follow anything but that which is reaveled to me! The Qur'an!

"You have NO duty EXCEPT delivering (Quran)" (42:48)

"Your ONLY duty is delivering (Quran), while we will call them to account." (13:40)

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The duty of the messenger is only to convey (the message). Allah knoweth what ye proclaim and what ye hide.

Say: The evil and the good are not alike even though the plenty of the evil attract thee. So be mindful of your duty to Allah, O men of understanding, that ye may succeed.

O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

Allah has not ordained (the making of) a bahirah or a saibah or a wasilah or a hami but those who disbelieve fabricate a lie against Allah, and most of them do not understand.

When it is said to them: "Come to what Allah hath revealed; come to the Messenger": They say: "Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following." what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?

O ye who believe! Guard your own souls: If ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt can come to you from those who stray. the goal of you all is to Allah: it is He that will show you the truth of all that ye do.

___________________Only the Message, nothing more.

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Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the Messenger but clear delivering (of the message).

________________________The Prophet Delivered the Message, Followed the Message.

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Stir not thy tongue herewith to hasten it.

Surely on Us the collecting of it and the reciting of it.

Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.

Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):

_______________________The Prophet doesn't make up stuff, the Qur'an is what he followed.

(45:6-11)

"These are God's verses; we recite them for you truthfully. In which "Hadith", beside God and His verses, do they believe in? WOE TO EVERY SINFUL FABRICATOR. He hears God's verses, then insists arrogantly on his way, as if he never heard them; promise him painful retribution. When he learns anything from our verses, he takes it in vain; these have deserved humiliating retribution. Awaiting them is hell; neither their earnings, nor the idols they had set up beside God can help them; they have deserved terrible retribution. THIS IS THE GUIDANCE, and those who do not believe the verses of their Lord will suffer debasement, and painful retribution."

039.023

Allah has revealed the most beautiful Hadith in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide.

031.006 - 7

But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge, to mislead from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule: for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.

When Our Signs are rehearsed to such a one, he turns away in arrogance, as if he heard them not, as if there were deafness in both his ears: announce to him a grievous Penalty.

__________The Qur'an is the message.

The Prophet Followed the Qur'an and nothing but the Qur'an. He did not make his own rules besides what God told him in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is full of "Say" for a reason, as he was being told what to say in religious matters and he said only that in religious matters. He did not divert from the Qur'an. The Qur'an is Sufficient as a Guide and is fully explained. If out of ignorance and arrogance one wishes to deny the Qur'ans complete perfection with things like "What do I do if I see a fly on the wall" without using the Qur'an which is an obvious guide, the person who doesn't follow the Qur'an and takes preference to other books, other hadiths than the Qur'an then they are making a bad choice.

To put it simply:

The Prophet was given the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is the pure completed message.

The Prophet followed the Qur'an.

Following the Qur'an is following the Prophets.

Do not fall into blasphemy by following narrations not created by God.

Do not be diverted from the straight path by books that make claims and laws without sanction.

If you need more proof from the Qur'an I will try to provide it, hopefully these revelations will be sufficient in making you understand the obvious fact that God has made the perfect and completed, self explanitory miracle, The Qur'an.

Please, after reading this email, or re reading it, email me.

Do not turn away from clear revelations and a clear message.

I don't think meeting me was by chance, I believe it has been decided that this is the time that you should be informed of this. Now it is your choice, to choose God's message (The Perfect Hadith), or man made narrations which people follow despite the Qur'an's completion and perfection and dare to make claim that they are "not able to understand" "that they NEED other books to explain" to explain what is CLEAR!

Erm, I have acouple of questions, on the subject of Heaven and entrance of such, and relationships.

Suppose you do believe in God, and you lead a relatively good life (obviously there are a few slip-ups like everybody has) but you just don't follow Islam/The Qu'ran. Will you still be allowed into Heaven? This might have been covered before on the heaven subject, but I felt a bit confused.

Also, you mentioned before about sexual relationships before marriage/with Non-Muslims being banned. Well, what if it were a non-sexual relationship? would that make a difference?

quote:Originally posted by Dynasty:



You are correct Boblong, the Qu'ran wasnt physically written by God but his message was sent down to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). "The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit. Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice. It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions."

I got this certain quote from Zakir Naik

you can look at this site it would be very helpful to you, h ttp://www. irf.net/ir f/faqonisl am/index.htm (http: //www.irf. net/irf/fa qonislam/i ndex.htm)

Thanks for responding to my question in such detail I somehow missed this post and just noticed it while rereading the thread.

quote:Originally posted by the_mute:

Erm, I have acouple of questions, on the subject of Heaven and entrance of such, and relationships.

Suppose you do believe in God, and you lead a relatively good life (obviously there are a few slip-ups like everybody has) but you just don't follow Islam/The Qu'ran. Will you still be allowed into Heaven? This might have been covered before on the heaven subject, but I felt a bit confused.

Also, you mentioned before about sexual relationships before marriage/with Non-Muslims being banned. Well, what if it were a non-sexual relationship? would that make a difference?

Thank you SO Much for your questions! I really appreciate you asking!

If the message comes to you, the message to follow the Qur'an, and you deny it for whatever reason and live a life ignoring the message and not following what is in it, then there will be your reward for that. If the message never came to you, yet magically and automatically you sort of lived a life by the revelations and did all that was in it through your own invention, and believed in the right things then you will get your reward for that.

But if the message did come to you, and to you, specifically you, it has, then there is no excuse for denying it afterwards. Plus alot of people believe in "false Gods" concepts of God that are simply untrue. Such as that God is in the Image of Man, that God is some being in heaven or in the universe controlling things like a chessboard, etc etc. Denying the message after it has come to you, the Qur'an hints at penalty for that. But if you lived a life by the revelation without ever recieving the revelation (raised in an obscure jungle tribe but happened to come to the right conclusions) Then that would get its reward as well. Denying the Message when it comes, does not.

Sexual Relationships with anyone prior to marriage is banned. General interaction with people is not banned. Taking people who do wrong to themselves or others as "friends" or intimates, is banned.

You can have relationships with anyone in the sense of interaction, communication, exchange of thoughts, but to consider them "friends" when they do wrong, is not really considered a beneficial thing.

Also, there is no alternate realm where one goes when they die, and there is no such thing as a spirit that can wander around without a body. Paradise and Punishment appear in physical reality after the "Ressurection" and Judgement. The Qur'an does promise that not an "Atom's Weight" or anything less, of injustice will be done. It does warn those who deny the message after recieving it, the ones who turn away, that there will be a penalty.

Any other questions? Feel free to contact me on MSN at abrahimesker@hotmail.com , AIM at abrahimesker, or yahoo at Abrahim_Esker

You can also ask here!

How old is the oldest Qur'an we have right now and how does it compare to the modern text? I have similar questions about the bible if anyone has info on that. Sources appreciated.

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

How old is the oldest Qur'an we have right now and how does it compare to the modern text? I have similar questions about the bible if anyone has info on that. Sources appreciated.

I looked on the internet and various places state that the oldest copy available in Arabic is identicle to the newest in Arabic, they don't offer sources to the statement but it seems to be an accepted fact which I've come over repeatedly. Mainly the consistancy of the book is kept because the Qur'an promises people that it can't be corrupted, so people in an attempt to fulfill this, maintain the original arabic text from the oldest available copies to the newest.

You can maybe find some actual sources on this but I didn't find any that mentioned it clearly with reference to an article or anything, just stating it generally.

Any other questions?

Some of you might have questions already asked! Feel free to review the posts in this topic for additional information! Enjoy!

#1. What are your personal reasons for promoting Islam? Why do you want people to join and become Muslim? Replace Qu-ran, "Muslim" and "Islam" with a name of any product and you will become a great sales man.

#2. If someone has never heard of Islam but has been tought to believe in a different God, since they were really young and were tougth by parents and surrounding society that no other religion is true, will they be punished? Assume that their religion was tought upon them intensivly since they were very young, and it has it's own holy book which says that any other religion is wrong and they will go to hell if they follow anything else. Will that person be punished?

#3. What about people who are born with disability, like mental retardation? If they have really low intelligence, and have no concept of what's going on, will they be punished?

#4. Does Qu-ran teach that anyone who follows a different religion is an enemy?

#5. Do you speak Arabic? My Arabic friend told me that the level of rhyming and general flow in Qu-ran is perfect and no human could have came up with it, is that true?

#6. How do you feel about American media promoting Islam as a religion of extremists and terrorists? When I talk to an average american (I'm Russian), they refer to Muslims as towel heads, terrorists, and generally people who are not to be trusted.

#7. If Allah created the universe, which is enormous in size, would he really care about some people who don't follow him? Why didn't he create everyone Muslims? If he is so allmighty... Ok, maybe the free will, but WHY? Why not just create people as Muslims so they all can pray to him and everyone would be happy?

#8. Does Allah like it when someone questions him or his authority?

These are just for now.

quote:Originally posted by AxiD:

#1. What are your personal reasons for promoting Islam? Why do you want people to join and become Muslim? Replace Qu-ran, "Muslim" and "Islam" with a name of any product and you will become a great sales man.

#2. If someone has never heard of Islam but has been tought to believe in a different God, since they were really young and were tougth by parents and surrounding society that no other religion is true, will they be punished? Assume that their religion was tought upon them intensivly since they were very young, and it has it's own holy book which says that any other religion is wrong and they will go to hell if they follow anything else. Will that person be punished?

#3. What about people who are born with disability, like mental retardation? If they have really low intelligence, and have no concept of what's going on, will they be punished?

#4. Does Qu-ran teach that anyone who follows a different religion is an enemy?

#5. Do you speak Arabic? My Arabic friend told me that the level of rhyming and general flow in Qu-ran is perfect and no human could have came up with it, is that true?

#6. How do you feel about American media promoting Islam as a religion of extremists and terrorists? When I talk to an average american (I'm Russian), they refer to Muslims as towel heads, terrorists, and generally people who are not to be trusted.

#7. If Allah created the universe, which is enormous in size, would he really care about some people who don't follow him? Why didn't he create everyone Muslims? If he is so allmighty... Ok, maybe the free will, but WHY? Why not just create people as Muslims so they all can pray to him and everyone would be happy?

#8. Does Allah like it when someone questions him or his authority?

These are just for now.

Thank you for your questions, I like them alot and I'm very glad you asked!

#1. Thank You! I might spend most of my life selling and promoting various things so I really appreciate that compliment! My personal reasons for the promotion of Islam is that I find it promotes a healthy lifestyle, a more effective and realistic God, and can be used to advance certain beliefs and views I hold.

#2. That is a good question, the example of Abraham (Ibrahim) from the Qur'an comes to mind: He was raised in a society that worshipped a multitude of idols and they had lost much of the concept in which their idol worship originally sprung from. Using his mind Abraham felt that these were Idols, simple stones, that can neither harm nor benefit anyone, and praying to them is futile. He thought what could be the "Real" God or "Ultimate Power" and he looked to the sun and the moon, and the stars, and the sky, and finally came to solution and idea that there is No God but God, and that every single thing is a part of it, that God is Reality, the ultimate power, we are completely dependant on it, and to humble oneself before it and come to peace with it can gain great personal benefit. The most ancient concept was this basic fact which most acknowledged, that there is only Reality, it is what we are manifest in. Idols came to represent aspects of Reality which later people began to believe are independant and real entities. In any case, the judgement of a person who has never heard of Islam is for "Judgement Day", but I believe that most people, with their senses and ability to think and comprehend, can wisely come to the correct conclusions as Abraham did in the days of old. Its not too difficult really: What is it that I am completely dependant on, that limits me, that controls all things, that all things are within and existing by: Reality. That is the only "God" the Ultimate "God". All things, what we know, what we don't know, what we do, what we could do, are all within it, and nothing is without it. Everything is made of it, it is everywhere.

#3. The Qur'an specifies that those with disability like mental retardation or have no concept of what is going on due to disability are innocent.

#4. The Qur'an teaches that there is only one religion, and that it is the conclusion that Abraham had reached in the days of old. Submission to Reality. You'll find remnants of this idea in Hinduism where the word is The Brahman instead of "God" or "Allah" or "Reality" but meaning the same thing, Bhuddism also has this concept. The Qur'an also adds that those who recieve its message but deny it, it is their loss and they will be punished. The Qur'an says not to become intimate with those who refuse to believe or follow the revelation, that if they are disbelievers they can't be "friends" but to do business with them justly, and speak to them kindly and politely, and all that.

#5. I don't know Arabic completely yet, yes the Qur'an is in timed rhyme and also prose, it can almost be sung through and through which is what many who have memorized the Qur'an do. The Qur'an suggests reciting it in slow rhythmic tones. I don't know if no human could have done it, but no human has made such a book ever since that has all the aspects the Qur'an does. The Qur'an hints that Muhammed was not actually the source of the information but was only the messenger and one to recite it, almost as though he was being "spoken through" by Gibrael. Another time it is mentioned like that is in the story of baby Jesus (Isa).

#6. I don't mind how muslims are promoted in the media, many of those who call themselves muslims are not following the religion suggested by the Qur'an. I find that those who are willing to believe, with open hearts, and seeking the truth, will come to the right path, and those who disbelieve will disbelieve, despite what the media teaches them. The Qur'an agrees with this.

#7. Human beings are not considered the greatest creations or superior in any way, we are just animals, those who do not follow the straight path, it is their own loss, to those who do it is for their benefit. Willingly or Unwillingly all submit to reality and are completely dependant on it, those who realize and accept this fact rather than try to fight it might grow in spiritual understanding. Reality could have manifest things in a way in which there is no free will, but I do prefer this balanced version we exist within today.

#8. As long as it leads you closer to the truth.

Thank you so much, once again, for your questions! I really appreciated them all and enjoyed answering each one! If you have more questions or which for elaborations on answers I can attempt to provide them! Feel free to ask anything any time! If you have MSN Messenger, AIM, or Yahoo Messenger, feel free to add me to any of those by either providing your MSN Messenger, AIM, or Yahoo Messenger email or username here, or add me at abrahimesker@hotmail.com, abrahimesker, or abrahim_esker@yahoo.com .

See you soon!

What do you think about this? http://www.bibleprobe.com/forum/messages/21.html

I feel the need for an X-treme kickass Jihad, how about you?

quote:Originally posted by kramer3d:

What do you think about this? http:/ /www.bible probe.com/ forum/messages/21.html (http: //www.bibl eprobe.com /forum/mes sages/21.h tml)

I feel the need for an X-treme kickass Jihad, how about you?

Jihad means to strive in the way of God by doing good such as paying the poor and praying.

The History of Muhammed is based on writings written centuries after events by people who were not present and had nothing to do with him. These texts were written primarilly for political reasons. They can say whatever they want about anyone, no need for people to go wild, even I can make up some stuff.

Also what it says about the "Torah and the Christian Bible" isn't correct. The Qur'an says the Torah was altered and edited and never mentions the Christian Bible, but the book Isa was said to have brought to the B'nei Israel, known as the Injeel. That book no longer exists.



[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 06-01-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The Qur'an is a complete book, fully coherent, no errors, accurate, a book of truth.

if that is true then so is this?:

"now let man but think from what he is created! he is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Quran 86:5-7).

Tell me what it says in Chapter 9 Verse 29 of the Qur'an, please.

quote:Originally posted by vice:

if that is true then so is this?:

"now let man but think from what he is created! he is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Quran 86:5-7).

I used to wonder about that revelation too, then I saw a tv show narrated by John Lithgow about sexual organs and learnt that it is infact true, the tube in which the sperm travels goes up there in the "loins" and then down to the pee pee.

086.006

He is created from a gushing fluid.



086.007

Proceeding from between the loins and ribs.

The Qur'an has more elaborate descriptions of things related to reproduction in other verses which you can find in various places in this topic as well as some links to websites here. Thank you so much for your question!

quote:Originally posted by Knight of the Realm:

Tell me what it says in Chapter 9 Verse 29 of the Qur'an, please.

009.029

Strive against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Any other questions?

quote:Originally posted by Zay:

This isn't exactly a question on Islam, but if the quran forbids smoking, then why are hukahs and sheesha so abundant in arab culture? msn: lil_zay@msn.com

The Qur'an suggests healthy living and doing things that are for your benefit, things that have greater benefit than harm. Smoking has existed prior to Islam in Arab nations and the Hadiths which most Arab nations follow do not forbid smoking. Smoking is bad for ones lungs and taking in fumes deliberately for whatever reason doesn't seem wise, nor respectful to ones body, if it harms it.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I used to wonder about that revelation too, then I saw a tv show narrated by John Lithgow about sexual organs and learnt that it is infact true, the tube in which the sperm travels goes up there in the "loins" and then down to the pee pee.

086.006

He is created from a gushing fluid.



086.007

Proceeding from between the loins and ribs.

The Qur'an has more elaborate descriptions of things related to reproduction in other verses which you can find in various places in this topic as well as some links to websites here. Thank you so much for your question!



the abdomen is below the backbone and ribs, and the male testicles are far below that.

quote:by definition, a drop is a small quantity of liquid that is separated from a larger body of liquid. gravity acts upon it and it drops (falls); hence, the term "drop". drops are not in the human body. they are outside of it. human blood flowing through the veins is not in drops, neither is the seminal fluid, which is emitted from the prostate, in drops. it is the seminal fluid that carries the sperm from the testicles as it exists the body that then forms drops. therefore, what the qur'anic verse is talking about is not the testicles, but the seminal fluid and sperm mixture that has left the body during sexual intercourse. it is the drop that the qur'an says is formed from "between the backbone and the ribs." this is an obvious and blatant error.

[/B]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

009.029

Strive against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

So you are supremacists?

Jihads or holy war whatever you like to call it how exactly does it work ?

quote:Originally posted by vice:

the abdomen is below the backbone and ribs, and the male testicles are far below that.

by definition, a drop is a small quantity of liquid that is separated from a larger body of liquid. gravity acts upon it and it drops (falls); hence, the term "drop". drops are not in the human body. they are outside of it. human blood flowing through the veins is not in drops, neither is the seminal fluid, which is emitted from the prostate, in drops. it is the seminal fluid that carries the sperm from the testicles as it exists the body that then forms drops. therefore, what the qur'anic verse is talking about is not the testicles, but the seminal fluid and sperm mixture that has left the body during sexual intercourse. it is the drop that the qur'an says is formed from "between the backbone and the ribs." this is an obvious and blatant error.

[/B]

Its not talking about the Testacles, everyone, even at that time knew that the testacles are related to sperm, as there were eunichs existing at the time. It is reffering to the tube in which the fluid goes through, the tube goes all the way to the loins and then down out the penis.

quote:Originally posted by Knight of the Realm:

So you are supremacists?



If by supremacists you mean "those who follow Islam get paradise" then yes.

quote:Originally posted by kfc v lot:

Jihads or holy war whatever you like to call it how exactly does it work ?

Jihad means to strive which is composed of doing good, helping the poor, and other beneficial things, being steadfast, you can read about the revelations that include the word strive above.

There is no such thing as a holy war nor can anyone call a holy war. In the time of the Qur'an a war was started by the Polytheists against the Muslims, this was was openly declared and both sides fought on battlefields, eventually the Muslim side won and took control of Mecca and a peace treaty was made.

quote:Originally posted by AxiD:

When I talk to an average american (I'm Russian), they refer to Muslims as towel heads, terrorists, and generally people who are not to be trusted.



I have lived in America all my life and have never heard a Muslim seriously referred to as a towel head or terrorist.I have If by "average American" you mean racist that makes sense, because apparently you're one.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Its not talking about the Testacles, everyone, even at that time knew that the testacles are related to sperm, as there were eunichs existing at the time. It is reffering to the tube in which the fluid goes through, the tube goes all the way to the loins and then down out the penis.

well we agree that the verse is not talking about testicles!!

but sorry, is the lower abdomen in a persons chest? no.

quote:Originally posted by vice:

well we agree that the verse is not talking about testicles!!

but sorry, is the lower abdomen in a persons chest? no.

Ok lets roll out the dictionary and anatomy books.

loins

The region of the hips, groin, and lower abdomen.

The reproductive organs. (according to Dictionary.com)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=loins

Vas Deferens: The narrow continuation of the canal of the epididymis, serving to transport the sperm cells from the epididymis, up through a canal toward the bladder, and then to the ejaculatory duct.

http://sexeditorials.com/anatomy/male.html

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Ok lets roll out the dictionary and anatomy books.

loins

The region of the hips, groin, and lower abdomen.

The reproductive organs. (according to Dictionary.com)

http://d ictionary. reference. com/search?q=loins (http: //dictiona ry.referen ce.com/sea rch?q=loin s)

Vas Deferens: The narrow continuation of the canal of the epididymis, serving to transport the sperm cells from the epididymis, up through a canal toward the bladder, and then to the ejaculatory duct.

ht tp://sexed itorials.c om/anatomy /male.html (http: //sexedito rials.com/ anatomy/ma le.html)

so... you are just proving my point.

the loins are not in the chest.

quote:

"proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs,"



sperm is not emitted from the chest or goes up into the chest and back down. if you agree that it is a process within the lower abdomen/loins then why does this passage say the chest?

[This message has been edited by vice (edited 06-04-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by vice:

sperm is not emitted from the chest or goes up into the chest and back down. if you agree that it is a process within the lower abdomen/loins then why does this passage say the chest?



The Qur'an doesnt say ribs, it says loins...and put your hand on your lowest rib, and span your fingers if you can down to the bottom of your tailbone and you'll be there.

086.007

Proceeding from between the loins and ribs.

Where did it say emitted from the chest? Its talking about the deferens, the tube from which sperm gushes forth, it is located between the loins (lower area as defined) and the lowest rib. You can span the area with your fingers and you'll be spanning the tube.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The Qur'an doesnt say ribs, it says loins...and put your hand on your lowest rib, and span your fingers if you can down to the bottom of your tailbone and you'll be there.

it says it here:

http://www.islamicvoice.com/january.97/scie.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/embryology.htm

http://experts.about.com/q/Islam-947/Ribs-BACKBONE.htm



quote:

Where did it say emitted from the chest? Its talking about the deferens, the tube from which sperm gushes forth, it is located between the loins (lower area as defined) and the lowest rib. You can span the area with your fingers and you'll be spanning the tube.[/B]

the verse says that it is the "drop" that is emitted from the chest area.

since it is talking about semen that has left the body and the area it has proceeded from (backbone & ribs) it is understandable that the sperm that has left the body, originates from the area in the chest.

proceeding:

to go forward from between...

to begin from between...

to move on from between...

to come from between...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=proceeding



[This message has been edited by vice (edited 06-06-2006).]

086.006

He is created from a gushing fluid.



086.007

Proceeding from between the loins and ribs.

The Deferens tube in which the semen "moves on from between..." is located in between the loins

The region of the hips, groin, and lower abdomen.

The reproductive organs. (according to Dictionary.com) http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=loins

and spans up to almost the bottom rib.

Between doesn't mean between like a sandwhich its talking length wise, so take your fingers, but your thumb on your side on the part where your lowest rib ends, span your forefinger or middle finger down to your groin and thats "in between your ribs and loins" and that is where your deferens is, its stating something obvious and basic in anatomy, its not talking about the CHEST, between the ribs and loins is not the CHEST, the CHEST, the Chest is not between the ribs and the loins, but the deferens is.

http://sexeditorials.com/anatomy/male.html

its not talking about the chest.

Any Other Questions?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Any Other Questions?

I do

Why did you bump this thread for the twelveteen thousandth time?

The book Islam and Terrorism by Mark Gabriel: http://www .amazon.co m/gp/produ ct/0884198 847/qid=11 40213202/s r=2-1/ref= pd_bbs_b_2 _1/104-5269966-1274325?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Some pages from Mark Gabriel's book (need Adobe Acrobat Reader):

http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/328030/Mark%20Gabriel/Chapter4.pdf 206KB

http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/328030/Mark%20Gabriel/Chapter5.pdf 124KB

http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/328030/Mark%20Gabriel/DeceitChapter6.pdf 101KB

http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/328030/Mark%20Gabriel/MuslimPastorCh7.pdf 100MB

http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/328030/Mark%20Gabriel/3StagesJihadCh11.pdf 88MB

(free ripway accounts allow a maximum of 10MB transfer per day. If links don't work, try back later)

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/holiday/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.activistchat.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.masada2000.org/islam.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

http://www.fomi.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1627

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

http://www.atcoalition.net/

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/6-Mein%20Kampf_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/moslem.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandviolence/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

http://www.domini.org/openbook/home.htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583

http://www.danielpipes.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/1/index.htm

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

http://www.geocities.com/the_awful_truth_about_islam/index.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/Islam.html

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html

http://www.truthtree.com/Debating/posts/755.html

http://www.isralert.com/archives/2005/03/deceit_thy_name.php

http://www.factsandlogic.org

http://massgraves.info/

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/zakirnaik/zakicaptured.gif



According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.jodkowski.pl/re/MBright.html

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm

---------

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5197

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5237

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5258



"Modern Liberals, With Some Exceptions, Are Fascists. They Preach Peace At The Expense Of Liberty, Diversity At The Expense Of Common Sense, Equality At The Expense Of Fairness And Choice At The Expense Of Life. They Are The First To Speak About Rights, Yet They Seek To Deny You Yours If You Disagree With Them. They Vociferate The Importance Of Free Speech, Yet Do Everything In Their Power To Stifle Yours. They Demonize The Very System Which Allows Them The Freedom To Criticize In The First Place, And They Are The Last People In Line When It Comes To Defending The One Country On Earth That Would Ever Tolerate Their Hypocrisy. They Are Divisive, Immoral And Utterly Incapable Of Understanding Why Everything I Just Wrote Is The Truth." - Edward L. Daley

"Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole." - Thomas Sowell

“Some of the most vocal critics of the way things are being done are people who have done nothing themselves, and whose only contributions to society are their complaints and moral exhibitionism.” – Thomas Sowell

“A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.” – G. Gordon Liddy

------------------

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

I do

Why did you bump this thread for the twelveteen thousandth time?

I noticed some new people in this area and thought perhaps they might have some questions.

Abrahim, you believe in the Qur'an but not the Sunnah, why?

You’ve probably already answered this question considering I’ve only read half this thread but I was curious whether obeying the Qur'an was the only way to enter paradise at the coming of Judgement Day.

Is it possible for one to lead a relatively “western” life (so yes, I would drink and have pre-marital sex etc etc) but to atone for this in other ways. i.e. being kind and charitable, helping those in need. So when judgement day does arrive Allah would accept that I had sinned but the balance of my good deeds outweighed the misdeeds and I could avoid hell?

I would also like to know whether any sin can be atoned for by an act somewhat equal to it. So if I was to commit murder could I redeem myself by saving the life of a child by sacrificing my own?



(I'd also like to note that this is never argued as intelligently in mainstream media. And since this is the internet I will take most of what you say with a grain of salt. But you have succeeded in increasing my respect for Islam. And my positive feelings towards it.)

To Loc Dogg:

Because I believe the Qur'an is God's word, the Sunnah are unverifiable history account written centuries after events and Muhammed, furthermore there is no need for them as the Qur'an is the guide, not Muhammed, the Prophet was only the Messenger of the Qur'an, he was by no means perfect, he made mistakes too, which the Qur'an corrected him on, the Qur'an is the message, not Muhammed, he was just a man who was bestowed with the message and he was a muslim and a good one, but the Qur'an is what told him what to do, without the Qur'an he had no knowledge of his own, so then I discuss in this topic I think various verses where he makes mistakes and is corrected and reminded that he has no knowledge save what the Qur'an gives him.

So basically I believe the Qur'an is sufficient as guide, as it says it is, and that people should follow it and only it, not side books that are not from God, they have no authority.

To Forgotten:

The Qur'an's prescriptions are for your own benefit, not for God's, so when it reccomends something it is for you, the individual, to utilize for personal benefit.

Once the message of the Qur'an has come to you, to turn away from it is said to be a drastic mistake. If the Qur'an never came to you, nor did any message, and you lived a life without knowledge of it, but lived a good and productive and positive life, that might be another story, but in your case the message has come to you, so to deny it and disobey it would be a mistake according to the Qur'an.

The Qur'an says Intoxicants have some benefit, but more harm, therefor not to do it, it is a prescription for your own benefit. The Qur'an says that not to have pre marital sex mostly for reasons of legal obligation in case of a number of circumstances also to protect the rights of women so that they aren't taken advantage of.

A sin can be atoned for easily by becoming a Muslims (one who submits), following the Qur'an, not repeating the sin, and asking for forgiveness.

But if you continue to turn away from the message and deny it and disobey it and do something even worse, then the person will be fully rewarded for all that they did, and for denying the message when it came to them, the ultimate loss.

So the Qur'an says yes its possible that you live according to the Qur'an without ever encountering it, if you do encounter it follow it and do not be one who turns away in arrogance, those who turn away when the message comes to them, it is their own loss in this life and the afterlife, for those who believe they have no reason to turn away from the Qur'an.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

To Loc Dogg:

Because I believe the Qur'an is God's word, the Sunnah are unverifiable history account written centuries after events and Muhammed, furthermore there is no need for them as the Qur'an is the guide, not Muhammed, the Prophet was only the Messenger of the Qur'an, he was by no means perfect, he made mistakes too, which the Qur'an corrected him on, the Qur'an is the message, not Muhammed, he was just a man who was bestowed with the message and he was a muslim and a good one, but the Qur'an is what told him what to do, without the Qur'an he had no knowledge of his own, so then I discuss in this topic I think various verses where he makes mistakes and is corrected and reminded that he has no knowledge save what the Qur'an gives him.

So basically I believe the Qur'an is sufficient as guide, as it says it is, and that people should follow it and only it, not side books that are not from God, they have no authority.



Read this carefully. (http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?QR=604&ln=eng)

Abrahim, do you have a pilots licence?

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

Abrahim, do you have a pilots licence?

lol no, I'm not too huge of a fan of flying, or dying.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

Read this carefully. (http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?QR=604&ln=eng)

Thank you for that! It was good to read.

Here are some things I know about Muhammed based on the Qur'an.

1. Muhammed followed the Qur'an.

2. The Qur'an was Muhammed's Guide.

3. Muhammed made mistakes, which the Qur'an corrected him on.

4. Muhammed had no knowledge save what the Qur'an gave him.

5. The Qur'an says it is sufficient as guide.

6. The Qur'an has the only authority to say what to do and was the only thing that told Muhammed what to do.

7. I only believe what the Qur'an says about Muhammed and the Prophets.

8. I only follow what the Qur'an says.

From Wikipedia:

"Other sources for biographies of Muhammad are: the military chronicles of Waqidi (745-822); the biographies of Ibn Sa'd (783-845), a student of Waqidi; later histories; Quranic commentaries; and collections of Prophetic hadith. These texts were recorded more than a century, and often several centuries, after the death of Muhammad. Some passages in the Qur'an are believed to shed some light on Muhammad's biography; however, they require a great deal of interpretation to be useful.

Some skeptical scholars (Wansbrough, Cook, Crone, and others) have raised doubts about the reliability of the Islamic sources, especially the hadith collections. They note for instance that the earliest biography of Muhammad of Ibn Ishaq does not contain any dates or explicit details; yet, later Islamic narratives have progressively more dates, with minute details of Muhammad's life being inserted into their accounts as successive generations of scholars relay the story, such that by the time we arrive at contemporary renditions of Muhammad's story, dates and details have exploded exponentially without explanation. These skeptics believe that many hadith and other traditions were manufactured, or doctored, to support one or another of the many political or doctrinal factions that had developed within Islam in its first century or later. The life of Muhammad was believed to be the exemplar for all Muslims; hence the importance of showing that Muhammad said or did something proving that a particular faction was right. If the skeptics are right, and if much of the early material cannot really be trusted, then all that is factually known is what is contained in the summary above."

You will find longer articles about the Hadith found in this topic in earlier pages.

Where exactly are these scientific proofs? So far the atmosphere and womb one are wrong or dont prove or predict anything. (trust me ive looked into it, I will explain again if you provide me with the verses and your interpreation, although I will only credit the verses, which are vauge and could be interpreted into anything.)

is there any other "proofs" you can pull out of Qur'an?, because the others are all bullshit and easily proven wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Hate Crimez:

Where exactly are these scientific proofs? So far the atmosphere and womb one are wrong or dont prove or predict anything. (trust me ive looked into it, I will explain again if you provide me with the verses and your interpreation, although I will only credit the verses, which are vauge and could be interpreted into anything.)

is there any other "proofs" you can pull out of Qur'an?, because the others are all bullshit and easily proven wrong.

On the first page of this topic and some following pages there are links to pages with "scientific proofs" on them.

Im too lazy, thats why i asked you to post them. :P

"I believe in the Qur'an mainly because of the content of its message, and the scientific proof found in it which to me shows that it seems to come from a source of greater knowledge,knowledge that requires equipment people didnt have at the time".

~Abrahim

What scientific proof?, this website denies a few (if not all, didnt bother reading) of the so called proofs > http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/index.htm

Here's one I found evidence against within a couple of minutes on Google.com

First your telling that because the Qur'an writes about sperm being the cause of pregency that it must be a scientific proof because no one could have known that without nod-aways technology..

Well, I looked up the forms of early birth control and it turns out..

Coitus interruptus, also known as withdrawal or the pull out method, is a method of contraception in which,

during sexual intercourse, the man removes his penis from the woman's vagina just before he ejaculates.

First use > 2000 years ago "at least 2,000 years " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coitus_interruptus

Contraceptives (For killing SPERM inside the vagina) where used as early as Egyptian times, roughly 3000 years ago.

Which means the function of sperm was known about for 1000+ years BEFORE the Qur'an was supposedly written.

Secondly, regarding the atmoshere one, the atmosphere is usually refered to as 5 layers, not 7 layers as the verse of the Qur'an says.

Although the atmosphere can be divided into around 9 or 10 layers (probably more) depending on how technical you want to get, it still is not seven, I guess 7 happens to be in between 5 and 10 so you can pretend it's a prediction of now-aday atmospheric science, but really I think 7 is just a common number used in the Qur'an (it definetly is in the Bible) and this verse happens to corospond with "the sky" or "heavens".



[This message has been edited by Hate Crimez (edited 07-09-2006).]

Then there is construction of a baby one, I won't get too detailed for the sake of saving time but it is realyl lame.

First it mentions the baby starts from a clot or blood or some bullshit (it dosn't)

-then it describes the growth, first the flesh and organs, then the bone, then the skin etc, which can easily be learned that's how humans are created by cracking open a dead body )which im sure were not to hard to come across in those ages) and seeing inside.

I'm also quite certain that a miscarrage in early pregnancy would reveal the development of a fetus without the use of "modern day technology", proveing that the Qur'an has no scientific prediction but only observation

P.S Not to sure on this but Arabic countries were actually one of the most educated cultures of that time so this knowledge wouldn't be too hard to find even in 600 AD or so. (after all they "invented" our current numeric system which replaced the old roman numerals).

Next their is some bullshit over the Qur'an predicting how planets are in orbit, even though observing they sky combined with even earlier \Greek astrology you could start to track patterns of sun/lunar/solar movement and have discovered it that way, No need for modern day equipment.

The Qur'an is a wannabe Bible and the Bible is even bullshit, how sad.

Good morality messages, alot of lies and bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by Hate Crimez:

"I believe in the Qur'an mainly because of the content of its message, and the scientific proof found in it which to me shows that it seems to come from a source of greater knowledge,knowledge that requires equipment people didnt have at the time".

~Abrahim

What scientific proof?, this website denies a few (if not all, didnt bother reading) of the so called proofs > http ://answeri ng-islam.o rg/Quran/Science/index.htm (http: //answerin g-islam.or g/Quran/Sc ience/inde x.htm)

Here's one I found evidence against within a couple of minutes on Google.com

First your telling that because the Qur'an writes about sperm being the cause of pregency that it must be a scientific proof because no one could have known that without nod-aways technology..

Well, I looked up the forms of early birth control and it turns out..

Coitus interruptus, also known as withdrawal or the pull out method, is a method of contraception in which,

during sexual intercourse, the man removes his penis from the woman's vagina just before he ejaculates.

First use > 2000 years ago "at least 2,000 years " http:// en.wikiped ia.org/wik i/Coitus_interruptus (http: //en.wikip edia.org/w iki/Coitus _interrupt us)

Contraceptives (For killing SPERM inside the vagina) where used as early as Egyptian times, roughly 3000 years ago.

Which means the function of sperm was known about for 1000+ years BEFORE the Qur'an was supposedly written.

It was well known back in ancient days that ejaculate is what impregnated women, I never stated that as any sort of proof, but rather the phase of embryo development mentioned and the layers of the atmosphere.

quote:Originally posted by Hate Crimez:

Secondly, regarding the atmoshere one, the atmosphere is usually refered to as 5 layers, not 7 layers as the verse of the Qur'an says.

Although the atmosphere can be divided into around 9 or 10 layers (probably more) depending on how technical you want to get, it still is not seven, I guess 7 happens to be in between 5 and 10 so you can pretend it's a prediction of now-aday atmospheric science, but really I think 7 is just a common number used in the Qur'an (it definetly is in the Bible) and this verse happens to corospond with "the sky" or "heavens".



I don't know why it says 7, I do find it impressive that it has an idea about "atmospheric layers" and also it mentions the crusts and layers of the earth likewise, but doesnt say 7.

quote:Originally posted by Hate Crimez:

Then there is construction of a baby one, I won't get too detailed for the sake of saving time but it is realyl lame.

First it mentions the baby starts from a clot or blood or some bullshit (it dosn't)

-then it describes the growth, first the flesh and organs, then the bone, then the skin etc, which can easily be learned that's how humans are created by cracking open a dead body )which im sure were not to hard to come across in those ages) and seeing inside.

I'm also quite certain that a miscarrage in early pregnancy would reveal the development of a fetus without the use of "modern day technology", proveing that the Qur'an has no scientific prediction but only observation

P.S Not to sure on this but Arabic countries were actually one of the most educated cultures of that time so this knowledge wouldn't be too hard to find even in 600 AD or so. (after all they "invented" our current numeric system which replaced the old roman numerals).

Next their is some bullshit over the Qur'an predicting how planets are in orbit, even though observing they sky combined with even earlier \Greek astrology you could start to track patterns of sun/lunar/solar movement and have discovered it that way, No need for modern day equipment.

Arabs did not become highly advanced until AFTER the arrival of the Qur'an.

You can't see this the following by opening up a dead body or a miscarriage, this is the phase of the embryo's development mentioned in the Qur'an as looking like a leech.

http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/Stages/Stage10.htm http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/Stages/Stage11.htm

Now here is a leech

http://www.micrographia.com/specbiol/helmint/annelhom/hiru0100/leech-00.htm

Hey Abrahim, I was wondering...one time I was talking to an Islamic friend of mine and he mentioned something about a floating rock where Mohamed descended into Heaven....can you explain that to me better? I'm interested in Islamic as mythology rather than a way of life just as I am in Christianity and Judaism in those aspects so there are many things I would like to know about it, mostly the stories of.

[This message has been edited by iSoape (edited 07-17-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by iSoape:

Hey Abrahim, I was wondering...one time I was talking to an Islamic friend of mine and he mentioned something about a floating rock where Mohamed descended into Heaven....can you explain that to me better? I'm interested in Islamic as mythology rather than a way of life just as I am in Christianity and Judaism in those aspects so there are many things I would like to know about it, mostly the stories of.



The Qur'an doesn't include that story. The Story your friend was reffering to is found in the Hadiths: The Ascent of Muhammed from the Dome of the Rock on the back of Barak the flying horse with the head of a man and the leg span that can reach far distances in single steps.

Since these stories are not included in the Qur'an I find them to be the manufactor and invention of people. The Hadiths were written centuries after Muhammed by people who had not met him.

Abrahim, have you ever made your pilgrimage to Mecca or Medina? Just curious.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/holiday/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.activistchat.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.masada2000.org/islam.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

http://www.fomi.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1627

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

http://www.atcoalition.net/

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/6-Mein%20Kampf_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/moslem.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandviolence/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

http://www.domini.org/openbook/home.htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583

http://www.danielpipes.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/1/index.htm

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/Islam.html

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html

http://www.truthtree.com/Debating/posts/755.html

http://www.isralert.com/archives/2005/03/deceit_thy_name.php

http://www.factsandlogic.org

http://massgraves.info/

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/zakirnaik/zakicaptured.gif

ttp://www.prophetofdoom.net/

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/toc.html

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/quotes1.html#terrorism

http://www.pmw.org.il/

According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.jodkowski.pl/re/MBright.html

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm

---------

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5197

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5237

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5258

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

quote:Originally posted by suck my dick:

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

Thanks for the links!

quote:Originally posted by Chrome II:

Abrahim, have you ever made your pilgrimage to Mecca or Medina? Just curious.

No, I haven't yet, hopefully someday I will. It is prescribed for any who can afford the trip or are able at least once.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

No, I haven't yet, hopefully someday I will. It is prescribed for any who can afford the trip or are able at least once.



Couldn't you die tomorrow? Is there anyway to make sure you will go if you do not plan it immediately?

What does islam say about racial matters? is skin clour relevant? also what are muslim attitudes to homosexuality?

quote:Originally posted by postdiluvium:

i heard that muslim men can marry a women from any religious background, but muslim women can only marry muslim men. is this true? if so, why?





Wrong religion, that ideology belongs to the jews.

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

Couldn't you die tomorrow? Is there anyway to make sure you will go if you do not plan it immediately?

I'm not sure what you mean? Make sure I go if I don't plan it?

quote:Originally posted by rasta_rider:

What does islam say about racial matters? is skin clour relevant? also what are muslim attitudes to homosexuality?

The Qur'an doesn't believe in Races, but we are the Human Race. The Qur'an states that homosexuality is an abomination (anal sex most specifically) and also is against any lewd or undignified or disrespectful behaviors.

quote:Originally posted by random_jew:



Wrong religion, that ideology belongs to the jews.

That's correct. In the religion of Islam based on what the Qur'an says, a good Muslim can only marry another good Muslim, and that one should marry those who are "single and virtuous".

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I'm not sure what you mean? Make sure I go if I don't plan it?

Sorry I was a bit unclear. You are probably physically and financially able to go right now and the only way to make sure you can make a pilgrimage is to leave immediately. Why don't you do so?

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

Sorry I was a bit unclear. You are probably physically and financially able to go right now and the only way to make sure you can make a pilgrimage is to leave immediately. Why don't you do so?

Because I'm not financially able to go right now and I don't have what I need to travel there, but hopefully someday I will get a chance to make that trip, a checklist of things to do and accomplish.

What is the significance of Islam to Muslim populated areas in Israel like the Gaza Strip?

So, in other words, is that area still considered religious land to Muslims?

quote:Originally posted by Chrome II:

What is the significance of Islam to Muslim populated areas in Israel like the Gaza Strip?

So, in other words, is that area still considered religious land to Muslims?

I'm not sure Muslim's consider the Gaza Strip religious land, but many Muslim's may consider the Dome Mosque to be religious land. The truth is that there is no such thing as "religious land" or "holy land" as all land, according to the Qur'an, belongs to God.

Palestine is steeped with ancient traditions and ideas which are not exactly Qur'anic.

Any Other Questions?

What does it say in regards to premaridal sex and its punishment for doing so.

quote:Originally posted by hankletank:

What does it say in regards to premaridal sex and its punishment for doing so.

There is no legal punishment or right to punish for premarital sex but it is reccomended not to perform premarital sex, primarilly for legal reasons and obligations and incase there is a kid and many more reasons due to the rights of a man and woman and so that no one is taken advantage of in the process. The Qur'an says not to perform premarital sex, to remain chaste until one is married.

Does anyone have any more questions related to the religion of Islam or its book: The Qur'an? You might like to check the prior pages as many questions have already been asked and answered!

http://www.redcoat.net/pics/tubgirl.jpg

Interested in Islam? Ask any questions about Islam here!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Interested in Islam? Ask any questions about Islam here!

Please explain why you continue to push a book as flawed as this:

[QUOTE]Some samples of Quranic contradictions for you

Prepared by: Syed Kamran Mirza

Special Note: Quranic ayats are taken mostly from the Quran translation of Maulana A. Yousuf Ali and Maulana Muhiuddin Khan. Hadiths were taken from Bukhari Sharif (Sahih).

Numerical Contradictions: There are many numerical contradictions in the Quran. God cannot make an error in doing simple calculations.

How many days did it take to create the Heavens and the Earth?

· Quran-7:54: Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

· Quran-10:3: Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

· Quran- 11:7: He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

· Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days

The above verses clearly state that Allah ( God) created the heavens and the Earth in 6 days. But the verses below state

· Quran-41:9 : Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

· Quran- 41:10: He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…

· Quran-41:12: So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

Now do the math: 2 (for earth) + 4 (for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days.

You can see similar mistakes in the verses: Quran-4:11, 4:12, and 4: 176 in inheritance law. In these verses one can see the total property after adding all distributed parts adds up more than the available property, i.e., the totals become more than 1 which are: 1.125 and 1.25. How come? A gross mathematical error, is it not?

Allah’s Days Equal to 1000 Years or 50,000 Years?

· Quran-22:47: A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

· Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousand years of your reckoning

· Quran-70:4: The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years.

So, which one is it? Is the day of Allah equal to 1,000 earth years or 50,000 earth years?

Creation of the Heavens and the Earth

Which one was created first? As you will see in the verses below, Allah at one time says that Earth was created first and another time he says that the Heavens were created first.

· Quran-2:29: It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heavens and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….

· Quran- 79:27-30: Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built ? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth

Now, does it match modern science ? Do you believe that, Earth was created first, and after that, God created Heaven ? Does modern science tell us that ? Or that there are SEVEN firmaments (layers)? Modern science tells us that, actually there is no such thing as a firmament or any roof over us, it is only a space with no known boundary at all. These verses simply reinforce the ancient idea of a ROOF over us which is called the SKY! How funny!

Sun-set and Sun-rise

The Quran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:

· Quran-18:86: Till, when he (the traveler Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…

· Quran- 18:90: Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.

There are serious scientific errors here. Firstly, it is a scientifically accepted fact that the Sun never goes down into a muddy spring. Secondly, this seems to presuppose a FLAT Earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting “far away.” It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the Sun sets and in his second journey THE PLACE where it rises.

A Resting Place for the Sun?

· Quran-36:38: And the Sun runneth on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

· Quran-36:39: And for the moon, We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled palm leaf.

· Quran-36:40: It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

Allah is indeed a great scientist. Where are the Sun and the moon situated? Can anybody tell me how they could collide/meet/overtake each other ? Are the Sun and moon neighbors to each other? I have the answer for this error: Ancient Allah saw (through observations with the naked eye) the Sun and moon travelling from east to west seemingly in the same part of the sky and on the same path. Yet they did not collide and continued to cause day and night, etc. Allah could hardly imagine that all these phenomena are simply due to Earth’s rotation and NOT by the Sun’s rotation. The Sun is stationary for Earth, because the Earth is stuck in the Sun’s Gravity, just as we are stuck in the Earth’ gravity. Allah never says anywhere in the whole Quran THAT THE EARTH ROTATES. Perhaps Allah could not feel Earth’s rotation.

A Resting Place for the Sun WAS CONFIRMED BY HADITHS (?)

· Sahih Bukhari Hadiths: Abzur Ghifari (ra) narrated: one day Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) asked me, “Abzar do you know after setting where does the Sun go?” I replied, I do not know, only Allah’s apostle could say better. Then the Prophet (SA) replied, “After setting, the Sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh and waits for Allah’s command for rising again in the East. Day will come when sun will not get permission to rise again and Qeyamot will fall upon earth”.

Can anybody tell me what it is? It was the superstitious belief of ancient people reflected in the Quran and Hadiths by Allah. A 10-year-old boy would not tell such a fairy-tale today.

Why Allah created Stars:

· Quran gives us further scientific knowledge by telling us that the stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils:

· Quran-67:5: And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans…

· Quran-37:6-8: We have indeed decorated the lower heaven (sky) with beauty (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans. So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.

Thus, the stars are nothing but missiles to throw at devils so that they may not eavesdrop on the heavenly council. Once again we find how Allah was high on his superstitious weirdness.

Sky/Heaven is Nothing but A ROOF or Canopy over the Earth:

· Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

· Quran-31:10: He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

· Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky ( heavens ) as roof (canopy) well guarded…

· Quran-2: 22: Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy

Modern science tells us- the Earth is entirely surrounded by space and there is no boundary even if we go billions of trillions of miles in any direction. The question is: If there is no sky above us then how in the world does the question of pillars come in? Do we really have a roof above us? Is there a canopy (Shamiaa’na) above the earth? In most Bengali translations of the Quran all Maulanas write: Allah akashke samiaana bannei-ese.

The Quran claims Allah gives rain from above! Ordinary People consider Allah as residing in the sky above the earth. But in cosmological science there is no up or down, that is, earth revolves and there is no fixed above or below for the earth. Every direction in outer space can be up or down. Are mountains there to prevent the earth from shaking? Give me a break!

Once again Allah considered the sky as a roof over the earth which will break/be shattered during Doomsday

· Quran-78::19: And the heavens (sky) Shall be broken (opened) as if there were doors opens…

· Quran-82:01: When the Sky is cleft asunder

· Quran-69:16: And the sky will be Rent asunder, for it will that day be flimsy(soft)

· Quran-81: 2: When the stars fall, losing their luster.

Yousuf Ali comments in his Tafsir: The beautiful blue sky overhead (which we take for granted in sunshine) will be shattered to pieces. Modern science tells us that there is no such thing as a roof, sky or any canopy over the earth, rather all around the Earth is limitless space. Only Allah knows what will break/get shattered or will get soft/flimsy or how doors will open - there are no walls, so where will doors come from? In some Ayats Allah threatened kafirs by saying: “I (Allah) will throw broken pieces of sky over your head.”

Sun and Moon Rotates:

· Quran-31: 29: Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and He merges Day into Night; That He has subjected the Sun and moon (to His law), each running its course for a term (time) appointed.

· Quran-21: 33: It is He who created the Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them swim (float) along in its own course.

Ayats mentioned above could be found over and over again and again in almost every page of the Quran. This is because Allah, standing in the open Arab desert, saw very well that every morning the SUN was rising from the east and gradually (at the appointed time) setting to the west, and as a result, day and night follow. Allah actually shared this misconception (the Sun moving) of pre-historic people. Every time Allah speaks of the Sun & Moon, he referred to Day & Night, as if it is due to the Sun’s movement that day and night follows. But surprisingly, all the hypocritical Mullahs give false credit to Allah by saying: Look, the Quran described the Sun’s movement 1400 years ago, which modern science only found out now. In the real world, the Sun takes 225 million years to make just one complete circle through the galaxy. And obviously this movement of the Sun has nothing to do with DAY & NIGHT of the earth. Actually, the Sun is stationary for the earth in a real sense, because the Earth is stuck in the giant gravitational force of the Sun. The Earth also moves along with the Sun wherever it goes, just the way that we are stuck to the Earth’s gravitational force and do not feel Earth’s movement at all. Why then, was Allah referring to the Sun’s movement again and again? I have already mentioned above, why Allah was mistaken about the Sun’s movements. Now dishonest Mullahs are claiming that this is science here. I wonder why Allah has to mention about the Sun’s 225 million year journey to tell about day and night? What does the Sun’s movement have to do with the day and night?

Earth is Spread Out Like a Carpet (Flat)

· Quran-15:19: And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;

· Quran-78: 6-7: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?

Allah was sure that the Earth is flat like a carpet and that mountains are there to anchor the earth so that the Earth does not shake with us. Allah is really an excellent scientist.

Here in this Verse, Allah Challenges People: Who Can Tell Whether the Conceived is Male or Female?

· Quran-31:34: Verily the knowledge of the Hour is With God (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He who knows what is in the wombs of mothers….

Who does not believe the fact that, actually mankind can predict very accurately (99.5%) when rain will fall and can predict (99.8%) the sex of the child inside a mother’s womb? Scientists also predict that, in the next five years weather predictions will be successfully correct almost 100%. Perhaps Allah could not imagine this.

Man is Created From Clotted blood?

· Quran-23:14: Then fashioned We the drop (semen) a CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD then fashioned We the clot a little lump (fetus), fashioned We the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators.

(Bengali translations of the Quran read: “Zamaa’t Raokto theeke Manoosh banieesi” And this Ayat has been repeated again and again throughout the Quran)

· Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned…

· Quran-96:2: Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood

There are serious scientific problems here:

A blood clot can not grow into anything. This idea came from the Greeks. Aristotle erroneously believed that humans are originated from the action of male semen upon female menstrual blood, which is absolutely an incorrect assumption. The Quran’s assertion on the clot (alaqa) is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood which is seen to emerge (much of which comes from the mother) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. Therefore, if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarriage. Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had some thirteen wives it is entirely possible that he would be very familiar with miscarriages.

Modern science tells us that the formation of human embryo is a seamless continuation from conception to birth, hence there are no hard-and-fast boundaries of stages as the Quran described. The Quran described 4 stages which matches exactly with Galenic description of the development of the human embryo (which was proved wrong by modern science).

Creation of bones and clothing of bones with flesh: According to modern embryologists including Prof. ___Moore of Canada____, the tissue from which bone originates, known as mesoderm, is the same tissue as that from which muscle (flesh) develops. Thus bone and muscles begin to develop simultaneously, rather than sequentially (as the Quran tells us). Moreover, most of the muscle tissue that we human have is laid down before birth, but bones continue to develop and calcify (strengthen with calcium) right into one’s teenage years. So it would be more accurate if the Quran had said that muscles started to develop at the same time as bones, but completed their development earlier. The idea that bones are clothed with flesh is not only scientifically completely wrong/false, but was directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen’s hypothesis.

Also, the idea of saying: “made into bones and clothed the bones with muscle” came from the technique of making animal statues (Moorthy) out of rod and cement or mud. People usually make the skeleton (out of rod or stick) first and, then cover it up with cement or mud. This is scarcely a scientific description of embryonic development. It is rather a description of a layman.

Which one is correct?

· Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion….

OR

· Quran-9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

· Quran-9:5: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….

· Quran-47:4: When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….

· Quran-2:191: And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

· Quran-8: 65: O Apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight…(against) unbelievers.

Very often apologetics claim that, Islam is a religion of peace and there is no compulsion. Yet, punishment of an apostate in Islam is, of course, death penalty.

In Many Ayats Allah Claimed That, He Has Given the Quran in Easy and Clear Language so that, it will not be difficult to understand by ordinary Arabs.

· Quran-44:58: Verily, We have made This Quran easy in the tongue, in order that they may give heed.

No matter which translation of the Quran we read, the Quranic materials remain the same to us and every sentence is self-explanatory. It does not take a rocket scientist to comprehend the message Allah wanted to transmit for Arabs. Yet, bigoted Mullahs will always blame translators for Quranic contradictions/errors/inconsistencies etc. and will try to find lame excuses to cover up Allah’s ignorance.

Comments:

The Holy Quran is full of inaccuracies, contradictions, inconsistencies, redundancies, a lack of chronologies or chapters, grammatical errors etc. One can find hundreds of contradictions/errors/inconsistencies in the Holy Quran and the above mentioned ayats are just selected samples from the Quran. But still it is a miracle to those who are blindfolded bigots.

“The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.”- Oliver Wendell Holmes[QUOTE]

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Originally posted by redzed:

Please explain why you continue to push a book as flawed as this:

(I promote the Qur'an because I find it to contain a clear and good message for people.)

Some samples of Quranic contradictions for you

Prepared by: Syed Kamran Mirza

Special Note: Quranic ayats are taken mostly from the Quran translation of Maulana A. Yousuf Ali and Maulana Muhiuddin Khan. Hadiths were taken from Bukhari Sharif (Sahih).



How many days did it take to create the Heavens and the Earth?

Quran-7:54: Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran-10:3: Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran- 11:7: He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days

(CREATION IN SIX DAYS

Your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then settled Himself firmly on the Throne... (Qur'an, 7:54)

One example of the harmony between the Qur'an and modern science is the subject of the age of the universe. Cosmologists estimate the age of the universe as 16-17 billion years. The Qur'an states that the entire universe was created in six days. These two time frames, which may seem contradictory, are actually surprisingly compatible. In fact, both these figures concerning the age of the universe are correct. In other words, the universe was created in six days, as revealed in the Qur'an, and this period corresponds to 16-17 billion years in the way that we experience time.

In 1915 Einstein proposed that time was relative, that the passage of time altered according to space, the speed of the person travelling and the force of gravity at that moment. Bearing in mind these differences in the passage of time, the period of time in which the universe was created as revealed in seven different verses of the Qur'an is actually highly compatible with scientists' estimations. The six-day period revealed in the Qur'an can be thought of as six periods. Because, taking into account the relativity of time, a "day" refers only to a 24-hour period experienced on Earth under current conditions. Elsewhere in the universe, however, at another time and under other conditions, a "day" could refer to a much longer period of time. Indeed, the word "ayyamin" in the period of six days (sittati ayyamin) in these verses (Qur'an 32:4, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 57:4, 50:38, and 7:54) means not only "days," but also "age, period, moment, term."

In the first period of the universe, the passage of time took place much faster than that with which we are familiar today. The reason for this is that, at the moment of the Big Bang, our universe was compressed into a very small point. The expansion of the universe and increase in its volume ever since the moment of that explosion has extended the borders of the universe to millions of light years. Indeed, the stretching of space ever since that moment has had very important ramifications for universal time.

The energy at the moment of the Big Bang slowed down the flow of time 1012 (one million million) times. When the universe was created the speed of universal time was higher up to a million million times, as time is experienced today. In other words, a million million minutes on Earth is the equivalent of just one minute in universal time.

When a six-day period of time is calculated according to the relativity of time, it equates to six million million (six trillion) days. That is because universal time flows a million million times faster than time on Earth. Calculated in terms of years, 6 trillion days equates to approximately 16.427 billion years. This is within the estimated range for the age of the universe.

6,000,000,000,000 days/365.25 = 16.427104723 billion years

Allah, there is no god but Him, the Living, the Self-Sustaining. He is not subject to drowsiness or sleep. Everything in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them but they cannot grasp any of His knowledge save what He wills. His Footstool encompasses the heavens and the earth and their preservation does not tire Him. He is the Most High, the Magnificent.

(Qur’an, 2:255)

On the other hand, each of the six days of creation equates to very different periods, as we perceive time. The reason for this is that the speed of the passage of time declines in proportion to the expansion of the universe. Ever since the Big Bang, as the size of the universe doubled, so the passage of time halved. As the universe grew, the speed at which the universe doubled increasingly slowed down. This rate of expansion is a scientific fact acknowledged the world over and described in the text book The Fundamentals of Physical Cosmology. When we calculate every day of creation in terms of Earth time, the following situation emerges:

Looked at from the moment when time began, the first day of creation (first phase) lasted 24 hours. This period, however, is the equivalent of 8 billion years in Earth terms.

The second day of creation (second phase) lasted 24 hours. This, however, lasted half as long, in our terms, as the preceding day, in other words 4 billion years.

The third day (third phase) lasted half as long as the second day, in other words 2 billion years.

The fourth day (fourth phase) lasted 1 billion years.

The fifth day (fifth phase) lasted 500 million years.

And the sixth day (sixth phase) lasted 250 million years.

Conclusion: When the six days of creation, in other words the six phases, are added together in Earth terms, the resulting figure is 15 billion 750 million years. This figure displays an enormous parallel with modern-day estimations.

This conclusion is one of the facts revealed by 21st century science. Science has once again confirmed a fact revealed in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago. This harmony between the Qur'an and science is one of the miraculous proofs that the Qur'an is the revelation of Allah, the Creator, the Omniscient."

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_33.html)

Quran-41:9 : Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

Quran- 41:10: He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…

Quran-41:12: So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

Now do the math: 2 (for earth) + 4 (for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days.

(who told you to add the days and who says on what of the 6 total time periods were each created?)



Allah’s Days Equal to 1000 Years or 50,000 Years?

Quran-22:47: A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousand years of your reckoning

Quran-70:4: The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years.

(The Qur'an specifies YOUR RECKONING, not that it is literally 1000 years, and the third revelation is talking about a time period in which angels ascend.)



Creation of the Heavens and the Earth

Quran-2:29: It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heavens and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….

Quran- 79:27-30: Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built ? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth

(The Planet came before the Atmosphere and its layers.

http://www.gannon.edu/resource/dept/enviro/EnvGeo/projects2003/atmosphere/Page%202.htm

http://www .csun.edu/ ~ttp46100/ Text/New%2 0Prentice% 20Hall%20C lass%20Not es/New%20P rentice%20Hall%20Class%20Notes/17-2_Earth_earliy_hist.htm )

Sun-set and Sun-rise

The Quran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:

Quran-18:86: Till, when he (the traveler Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…

Quran- 18:90: Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.

There are serious scientific errors here. Firstly, it is a scientifically accepted fact that the Sun never goes down into a muddy spring. Secondly, this seems to presuppose a FLAT Earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting “far away.” It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the Sun sets and in his second journey THE PLACE where it rises.

(Talk about a guy who doesn't understand figures of speach...To put it simply, Zul traveled West, Zul Traveled East.)



A Resting Place for the Sun?

Quran-36:38: And the Sun runneth on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

Quran-36:39: And for the moon, We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled palm leaf.

Quran-36:40: It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

(The Sun is running its course until finally it will be done. Running its course is a reference to not only its time but also the expansion of the Universe and the movement of this entire solar system.)

Why Allah created Stars:

Quran-67:5: And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans…

(its not talking about the sky but refering to the nearness of the portion of the Universe which the stars are located, as beyond the stars there is much much more. Furthermore the missiles are not reffering to stars.)

Quran-37:6-8: We have indeed decorated the lower heaven (sky) with beauty (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans. So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.

(There are more revelations about this that make it very clear the gaurds are not reference to stars.)

Sky/Heaven is Nothing but A ROOF or Canopy over the Earth:

Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

Quran-31:10: He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky ( heavens ) as roof (canopy) well guarded…

Quran-2: 22: Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy

Modern science tells us- the Earth is entirely surrounded by space and there is no boundary even if we go billions of trillions of miles in any direction.

Once again Allah considered the sky as a roof over the earth which will break/be shattered during Doomsday

Quran-78::19: And the heavens (sky) Shall be broken (opened) as if there were doors opens…

Quran-82:01: When the Sky is cleft asunder

Quran-69:16: And the sky will be Rent asunder, for it will that day be flimsy(soft)

Quran-81: 2: When the stars fall, losing their luster.

(The Sky is a non literal canopy and roof around the Earth as the atmosphere sheilds the Earth from things like debris and other things which burn up in the atmosphere, not only that but it protects us from the harmful rays of the sun as a roof or canopy would. I'm starting to get sort of irritated with this guy, does he really not comprehend what the Qur'an is saying?)

Sun and Moon Rotates:

Quran-31: 29: Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and He merges Day into Night; That He has subjected the Sun and moon (to His law), each running its course for a term (time) appointed.

Quran-21: 33: It is He who created the Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them swim (float) along in its own course.

( The Sun and the Moon are each on courses, the Sun is moving as is the whole solar system as the entire universe expands, the Moon orbits around the Earth. )

Earth is Spread Out Like a Carpet (Flat)

Quran-15:19: And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;

Quran-78: 6-7: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?

(http://www.nooran.org/EN/Q/3.htm

"The Scientific Fact:

In former times, mountains were known as simply rocky blocks protruding from the earth. This definition was considered valid until 1835, when Pierre Bouguer pointed out that the gravitational forces registered in the Andes Mountains are considerably less than what would be expected for such a massive rocky block. Supposedly, for him, a massive block of the same kind must be immersed deep in the earth. It was on this basis that the abnormality of gravity was to be interpreted.

In the middle of the 19th century, George Everest paid great attention to the abnormality of the results of measuring the gravity of the Himalaya Mountains in two different places. Everest, nevertheless, failed to interpret this phenomenon and so he called it The Mystery of India. However, George Airy stated in 1865 that all mountain chains on earth are floating blocks on a sea of magma (i.e. molten rock material beneath the earth’s crust) and that all such molten material is denser than the mountains themselves. As a result, the mountains must dive into this high density material to maintain their uprightness.

Geologists discovered the fact that the earth’s crust is made of adjacent patches called continental plates and that mighty mountains float on a sea of molten material and higher-density rocks below the surface. They also discovered that mountains have roots that help them float and keep fastened to the plates of the earth so it will not shake. In 1948, the Geologist Van Anglin stated in his book Geomorphology (on page no. 27) that it is quite well understood currently that there is a root for each mountain below the crust of the earth.

The function of mountains on the earth is to fasten the crust of the earth. This fact was proven by the principle of hydrostatic balance of the earth as illustrated by the US Geologist Dutton, in 1889. He stated that the protrusions of the earth are immersed into the earth in a way that conforms to their height. Moreover, after the existence of the plates of the earth was proven in 1969, it became clear that the mountains are responsible for maintaining the equilibrium of all the plates.



Facets of Scientific Inimitability:

Man did not know such facts about mountains which have only recently become available in the middle of the 19th century. Meanwhile, the Noble Qur’an in this verse asserts authoritatively that mountains are like pegs in terms of their figure and function. Recently, the accurate simile of this verse proved to be true. The peg has two parts: one on the surface and the other underground and its function is to fasten what is tied thereto. Similarly, a mountain has two parts: one protrudes on the crust of the earth and the other is immersed beneath the ground, in a way that is in conformity with its height. Its function is to fasten the plates of the earth’s crust and prevent them from shaking because of the molten layer beneath. Thus, it becomes evident that the Qur’an is the Word of Allah Who is the Creator of the mountains and all the universe.

Allah, the Almighty, says, {Should not He Who has created know? And He is the Most Kind and Courteous (to His slaves), All-Aware (of everything).} (Al-Mulk: 14)



Also I reccomend reading the mountain section here http://www.missionislam.com/science/book.htm)

Man is Created From Clotted blood?

· Quran-23:14: Then fashioned We the drop (semen) a CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD then fashioned We the clot a little lump (fetus), fashioned We the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators.

(Bengali translations of the Quran read: “Zamaa’t Raokto theeke Manoosh banieesi” And this Ayat has been repeated again and again throughout the Quran)

Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned…

Quran-96:2: Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood

( It has a section about that here http://www.missionislam.com/science/book.htm)



(The bones thing he mentioned was a refference to a revelation where it said that God will reassemble a person completely from their bones to their skin up to their very fingertips)

Which one is correct?

(The Qur'an as I've mentioned in this topic before is generally peaceful but gives the right to fight if attacked in a period of openly declared war between factions, no one has permission to break the peace or start wars or break treaties as the Qur'an clearly states in the revelations which he took out of context.)

In Many Ayats Allah Claimed That, He Has Given the Quran in Easy and Clear Language so that, it will not be difficult to understand by ordinary Arabs.

Quran-44:58: Verily, We have made This Quran easy in the tongue, in order that they may give heed.

There you go Buddy! The ( ) are my inserts. Enjoy!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

(Talk about a guy who doesn't understand figures of speach...To put it simply, Zul traveled West, Zul Traveled East.)

No, you can't take what is written in the Quaran and just decide to put it so simply. It says a lot more than he travelled west and travelled east.

It says, "he reached the setting-place of the Sun".

How does one "reach" the setting place of the sun? I'll tell you how, the story was wriiten at a time when the Arabs in that area believed in a flat earth (which is why it also says "He spread (flattened) the earth". It is not possible to reach the setting place of the sun, is it?

"he found it going down into a muddy spring…"

How does one see the Sun go down in a muddy spring? Are there any muddy springs on Earth that are so large, it can be seen at the horizon? No, there aren't. This backs what the Quran says about Zul-qarnain reaching the setting place of the sun; it is to be taken literally.

"Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun"

Again, it doesn't say that he reached a place where he could see a nice sunrise. It says that he travelled to the extreme east and reached [i]the[i/] rising place of the sun.

Why be an apoligist for Islam? Why take anything that is proved wrong about it, and be another desperate person who will do anything to show that his holy book is perfect?

I have a strong feeling if this story was written in the Bible, you would be ridiculing how this story makes no sense in a day and age when we know the Earth is a sphere, but because it's in the Quran, it is the unbelievers who are interpretting it incorrectly.

"No, you can't take what is written in the Quaran and just decide to put it so simply. It says a lot more than he travelled west and travelled east."

(For as long as I've read the Qur'an it has been extremely simple for me to understand. Zul traveled in the direction of the setting of the sun and he reached a muddy spring, then he went in the other direction.)

"It says, "he reached the setting-place of the Sun".

How does one "reach" the setting place of the sun? I'll tell you how, the story was wriiten at a time when the Arabs in that area believed in a flat earth (which is why it also says "He spread (flattened) the earth". It is not possible to reach the setting place of the sun, is it?"

(Actually the Qur'an says the Earth is EGG SHAPED. http://www.geocities.com/aahem187/AstronomyTheEarth.htm

In early times, people believed that the earth is flat. For centuries, men were afraid to venture out too far, lest they should fall off the edge. Sir Francis Drake was the first person who proved that the earth is spherical when he sailed around it in 1597. Consider the following Qur’aanic verse regarding the alternation of day and night:

....::::“Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day And He merges Day into Night?” [Al-Qur’aan 31:29]::::....

Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually changes to day and vice versa. This phenomenon can only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was flat, there would have been a sudden change from night to day and from day to night. The following verse also alludes to the spherical shape of the earth:

....::::“He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions): He makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap the Night.” [Al-Qur’aan 39:5]::::....

The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning ‘to overlap’ or ‘to coil’– the way a turban is wound around the head. The overlapping or coiling of the day and night can only take place if the earth is spherical. The earth is not exactly round like a ball, but geo-spherical i.e. it is flattened at the poles. The following verse contains a description of the earth’s shape:

....::::“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” 2 [Al-Qur’aan 79:30]::::....

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat.)

"he found it going down into a muddy spring…"

(he found the sun setting beyond a muddy spring)

How does one see the Sun go down in a muddy spring? Are there any muddy springs on Earth that are so large, it can be seen at the horizon? No, there aren't. This backs what the Quran says about Zul-qarnain reaching the setting place of the sun; it is to be taken literally.

(The Qur'an itself says it is full of allegory and in its FIGURES OF SPEECH it is not to be take literally, Yes one can reach a place in which the sun sets and before him was a muddy spring, that is not impossible and according to the Qur'an that is exactly what he saw, he traveled towards the setting of the sun and reached a muddy spring.)

"Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun"

Again, it doesn't say that he reached a place where he could see a nice sunrise. It says that he travelled to the extreme east and reached [i]the[i/] rising place of the sun.

(Now let me copy paste the entire story of Zulqurnain:

018.083

They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."

018.084

Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.



018.085

And he followed a road

018.086

Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea (or murky waters), and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

018.087

He said: As for him who doeth wrong, we shall punish him, and then he will be brought back unto his Lord, Who will punish him with awful punishment!

018.088

But as for him who believeth and doeth right, good will be his reward, and We shall speak unto him a mild command.

018.089

Then he followed a road

018.090

Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.

018.091

So (it was). And We knew all concerning him.

018.092

Then he followed a road.

018.093

Until, when he reached (a tract) between two mountains, he found, beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word.

018.094

They said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Lo! Gog and Magog are spoiling the land. So may we pay thee tribute on condition that thou set a barrier between us and them?

018.095

He said: That in which my Lord has established me is better, therefore you only help me with workers, I will make a fortified barrier between you and them;

018.096

Bring me blocks of iron; until when he had filled up the space between the two mountain sides, he said: Blow, until when he had made it (as) fire, he said: Bring me molten brass which I may pour over it.

018.097

So they were not able to scale it nor could they make a hole in it.

018.098

He said: "This is a mercy from my Lord: But when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true."

018.099

On that day We shall leave them to surge like waves on one another: the trumpet will be blown, and We shall collect them all together.

018.100

On that day we shall present hell to the disbelievers, plain to view,

018.101

They whose eyes were under a cover from My reminder and they could not even hear.)

Why be an apoligist for Islam? Why take anything that is proved wrong about it, and be another desperate person who will do anything to show that his holy book is perfect? (There is nothing wrong with figures of speech and the Qur'an does not say the Earth is Flat.)

I have a strong feeling if this story was written in the Bible, you would be ridiculing how this story makes no sense in a day and age when we know the Earth is a sphere, but because it's in the Quran, it is the unbelievers who are interpretting it incorrectly. (That's a good theory but I don't really have a tendency to ridicule stories of the Old Testament other than when they say something that seems blasphemous to me like to say Noah got drunk naked and performed incest or that man is made in God's image, luckilly the Qur'an doesn't have stuff like that and one of the reasons I'm a huge fan is the Qur'an agrees with me, so in return, I agree with the Qur'an and honestly, the english translation of 2 figures of speech in a parable about Zul Qurnain don't prove the Qur'an wrong, it is honestly talking about walking east and walking west not the two edges of a flat Earth.

Abrahim, do you actually want to discuss this, or do you simply want to copy and paste long winded arguments that some other apologist on a website gave? If that's all you're going to do, don't waste my our time. We all know how to use Google and have read these lame attempts before.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

Yes one can reach a place in which the sun sets and before him was a muddy spring,

I have a feeling you are intentionally being intellectually dishonest to support your beliefs no matter what.

You are fully aware that it does not say before him was a muddy spring. It says "he found it going down into a muddy spring…" How can one possibly see the the sun go down into a muddy spring?

I'm also sure you're aware that this quote from you is impossible, "Yes one can reach a place in which the sun sets".

Abrahim, in response to me saying, "which is why it also says "He spread (flattened) the earth"", you replied, "Actually the Qur'an says the Earth is EGG SHAPED." as if the Quran doesn't actually say "He spread (flattened) the earth". Well it does.

A little research shows that this actually isn't a contradiction. The word "dahaha" does not mean egg shaped, or "ostrich egg". Dahaha means flat. It also is the bed, which an ostrich prepares to lay its eggs (which is flat). It does not mean ostrich egg.

You linked to a web page that translated 79:30 as saying, "“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.”

Three of the most respected English translators of the Quran have all agreed on the translation of "dahaha" and none have translated it as egg shaped:

079.030

YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);

PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth,

SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that.



Abrahim, I was brought up in a muslim household. Don't do yourself a disservice and follow just because you have the need to fit into a group or help reserve yourself a spot in paradise. Don't blindly believe what apologists tell you that the Quran says because it makes you feel more confident in being one of those who know the "right" religion. If there was any real hard evidence of God's existence and not books full of the obvious words of men of long ago, I'd be the first one bowing next to you on a prayer rug.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:



(I promote the Qur'an because I find it to contain a clear and good message for people.)



Mate! How is it you can claim that when it contains so many threats/promises of allah as to the severity of the punishments awaiting the unbeliever? How is that a good message? Does that mean all those loved ones who have passed from this life, the ones who never knew of allah, are now suffering torment?



quote:

There you go Buddy! The ( ) are my inserts. Enjoy!

Abrahim, what I've been trying to express to you is what appears to me a dichotomy between what you say you believe(Ultimate Reality etc) and your voluminous apologetics for Islam. In a sense this is admirable, you have a passion for your god and your religion, however it seems to blind you to the reality of what is being taught by Islam. Example: Atefah, 16 year old rape victim, executed under sharia law by islamic fundamentalists.

I read the Koran with a hopeful heart, hoping to find the source of the inspirations I found in the poetry of Rumi. What I found instead was an even harsher version of God than the Jewish version. You seem not to notice these contradictions, or perhaps you don't care?

Do you think it fair that if one is not able to believe in Allah for the incredibly short period of this life that they should suffer damnation?



What ethical human judge would think it justice to sentence a fellow human to endless suffering for the deluded actions of a short period?

Do you really expect to spend eternity in heaven with your god knowing that the vast majority of your fellows humans are now sufferng an eternal torment?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Forgive me if this has already been asked. Could you please explain to me the diffrence between Sunni and Shi'a muslims? Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Abrahim, do you actually want to discuss this, or do you simply want to copy and paste long winded arguments that some other apologist on a website gave? If that's all you're going to do, don't waste my our time. We all know how to use Google and have read these lame attempts before.

I have a feeling you are intentionally being intellectually dishonest to support your beliefs no matter what.

You are fully aware that it does not say before him was a muddy spring. It says "he found it going down into a muddy spring…" How can one possibly see the the sun go down into a muddy spring?

I'm also sure you're aware that this quote from you is impossible, "Yes one can reach a place in which the sun sets".



I swear I'm not being dishonest when I say that it is a reference to traveling east and west and witnessing the setting and rising of the sun. Have you ever seen a sunset going down? This sunset according to this story went down into a black sea or a murky body of water, and yes if you have ever seen a sunset it's not impossible for it to look like that, and the Qur'an is not asking you to take a literal interpretation of the sun setting into a muddy spring...how do I know this? Because the Qur'an talks about the sun and the moon, orbits, and more, and does not expect people to be so silly as to take a reference to a direction and an explanation of what was seen by perspective as something literal, nobody has ever even THOUGHT of those revelations like that, I definately never did and I've read them so many times I never thought "Wow its saying the sun literally went into a murky body of water" in my imagination I saw it setting, just how I see the sun setting into the ocean here, I know its not literally setting into the ocean.

I copy pasted to you the entire story of Zul Qurnain, it never even stating that these portions of it were to be taken deadly literal, though I do believe the story is true and that it never intended one to take literally the sun going into mud.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Abrahim, in response to me saying, "which is why it also says "He spread (flattened) the earth"", you replied, "Actually the Qur'an says the Earth is EGG SHAPED." as if the Quran doesn't actually say "He spread (flattened) the earth". Well it does.

A little research shows that this actually isn't a contradiction. The word "dahaha" does not mean egg shaped, or "ostrich egg". Dahaha means flat. It also is the bed, which an ostrich prepares to lay its eggs (which is flat). It does not mean ostrich egg.

You linked to a web page that translated 79:30 as saying, "“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.”

Three of the most respected English translators of the Quran have all agreed on the translation of "dahaha" and none have translated it as egg shaped:

079.030

YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);

PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth,

SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that.



Abrahim, I was brought up in a muslim household. Don't do yourself a disservice and follow just because you have the need to fit into a group or help reserve yourself a spot in paradise. Don't blindly believe what apologists tell you that the Quran says because it makes you feel more confident in being one of those who know the "right" religion. If there was any real hard evidence of God's existence and not books full of the obvious words of men of long ago, I'd be the first one bowing next to you on a prayer rug.

I don't believe that you are to be one who bows.

The Earth being egg shaped or the Earth being expansive and spacious: Either way it never says the Earth is flat.

I find it really silly that you intend to force someone to take something about the setting of the sun and a figure of speech as a literal statement.

I don't believe that you have a grasp on what God is thus you don't believe God exists, but to me Reality and all that is around me and God are one thing and the former would not exist if it were not made of the latter, this is God, it is like you saying to me that nothing exists, not even me. Of course a seperate God in some distant dimension doesn't exist, but God is what this universe is made of, existing by and within.

So you were raised into a Muslim household that taught you the sun went into a muddy spring until finally you left?

I follow the Qur'an and only the Qur'an as a religious text an I honestly don't believe it a lie to say it is reffering to directions: Towards sunset and towards sunrise, and the Qur'an NEVER asks someone to be so silly as to literally believe the sun goes into a muddy spring.

The men of old used to say the same as you: If there was any real hard evidence of God's existence and not books full of the obvious words of men of long ago, I'd be the first one bowing next to you.

If I'm right about Islam then when you and I die, we'll both be ressurected and face judgement, you most probably being thrown in hell, and me hopefully being saved.

If I'm wrong about Islam and it is untruth then when we die we won't be ressurected.

Let's wait and see what happens.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

In a sense this is admirable, you have a passion for your god and your religion, however it seems to blind you to the reality of what is being taught by Islam. Example: Atefah, 16 year old rape victim, executed under sharia law by islamic fundamentalists.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Where in the Qur'an does it state to execture 16 year old rape victims? People's injustice and cruelty, despite what they claim their religion is, does not reflect the religion if they do not follow it, but the culture of the region.

When we die either we are ressurected as I say, or we remain dead forever, never to return.

If the Qur'an is true and we are ressurected then we face judgement and those who did good will get a good reward and those who did bad will get a horrible punishment.

If the Qur'an is wrong and we are not ressurected then we don't face judgement and those who did good will remain dead and those who did bad will remain dead.

What you believe to be an inordinate and unjust punishment is not a reason for me to defy what the more powerful party says: I'm saving my skin, literally, if the Qur'an is true, and if it's not, big deal, I'm dead anyway.

Now in your case if the Qur'an is true and the God of the punishment you believe to be inordinate does call you out, no oops will be big enough to warrant forgiveness from this God which you believe is harsh and thus this God will throw you into hell fire. Perhaps you would rather be there than to be in paradise knowing your fellow humans are being punished but I on the other hand hope to take advantage of the opportunity and save myself from potential pain. I strongly believe that the ressurection exists and that death is only temporary, if I'm wrong I'll never know, If I'm right I'll know.

You don't fear such supernatural and distant seeming things, so be it, we will see what happens and which of us if any is right.

quote:Originally posted by op_m:

Forgive me if this has already been asked. Could you please explain to me the diffrence between Sunni and Shi'a muslims? Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27ite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni

Those two will help.

In short it is a fight between the heirs to Muhammed according to hadiths written hundreds of years after any events by people who had no knowledge of the events and were not present. According to these Hadiths there was a conflict between the heirs to Muhammed, Abu Bakr took the leadership after Muhammed's death and a group felt Ali the blood relative of Muhammed should take control. The Shi'ite's are the ones who believe Ali should've taken control. Both sides should realize the history they are holding on to is unverifiable and the only record of it is having been written by writers over 2 centuries after any of the supposed events. I believe the are made up stories, that there was no fight between Abu Bakr or Ali, furthermore that neither of those characters may have existed.

The only person the Qur'an mentions is Zaid, Muhammed's adopted son.

Almost nothing is known about the history of Muhammed or what happened after his death, all the things people take as fact were written hundreds of years after events by people who were not even present, people who had converted, and people who possibly had political agendas in their stories.

The Qur'an, for a Muslim, is the only Sure Guide. I don't believe in any characters not mentioned in the Qur'an.

There is only One Islam as described in the One Qur'an. The Qur'an says to leave sects alone and that everyone will be dealt with on judgement day.

The cause for the seperation between the two groups is a mix of political, religious, cultural, historical ideas and backgrounds which led to a division. Each follow their own version of the Hadith's. If they were to follow the Qur'an alone as they are supposed to there would be no division. But the division is due to a disagreement in history of which there is no verification that it ever occured. I don't believe in any hadiths, not Sunni Hadiths, not Shi'ite Hadiths, I only believe in the Qur'an, my religion is Islam: Not Sunni, not Shi'ite, Not Sufi...One Islam, the guide: The Qur'an.

Would cyrogenic freezing be a better penalty for Mukhlas, the Bali bomber who gave two thumbs up to his death sentence?

Or would he be martyred anyway?

quote:Originally posted by Windowlicker:

Would cyrogenic freezing be a better penalty for Mukhlas, the Bali bomber who gave two thumbs up to his death sentence?

Or would he be martyred anyway?

He's not a martyr, just a person who killed people and without any validation to do so by the Qur'an. He accomplished nothing good and he will be given what he earned in life back on the day of judgement.

Keep it up brother.

And to all those people who fight and argue: We as muslims can only reveal the path to you not force it upon you. So don't try to force your disbelief on others. If you can reveal the deception then do so but if not then just learn.

Seeing as how you don't believe in the Hadith (I myself am begining to also stop believing in them) how do you pray?

Hadith's traditionally ask for the typical things you see in the Mosque's but how does one who doesn't believe in the Hadith pray.

quote:Originally posted by hankletank:

Seeing as how you don't believe in the Hadith (I myself am begining to also stop believing in them) how do you pray?

Hadith's traditionally ask for the typical things you see in the Mosque's but how does one who doesn't believe in the Hadith pray.

There is no sin, in my opinion, to pray in the fashion that the other Muslims of today pray in as it encompasses the message that was given in the Qur'an as how to pray.

The Qur'an says to perform the ritual ablution (cleansing) before prayer which includes (with clean water or clean sand if no water is available) lightly rubbing one's head or face, washing the arms up to the elbows, washing the feet up to the ankles, (also having cleaned yourself if you went to the bathroom).

Then one goes to worship which the Qur'an mentions as including standing upright, bowing and prostration a meditative excercise full of the praises of God and prayers which the Qur'an has available but the Qur'an never specifies a number to it:

This means that you can pray as much or as little as you want, as much as your heart desires. No one has the authority to say you can't pray more but the times of prayers are also specified as before sunrise, noon, afternoon, after sunset, night.

So the Qur'an says how to pray and when to pray but doesn't specify what exactly you should say or how many times you should say it, this is because the Qur'an leaves it up to you as it is your personal relationship with God and an act of humility and submission to the Lord of the Worlds, the All Encompassing and All Powerful.

One can prostrate once for a long time with a sincere heart and praise God or one can prostrate 1000 times without any feeling or sincerity and it would mean little.

The way the majority of Muslims pray is encompassing what the Qur'an says and is thus not a sin, but the sin comes in anyone who might claim that one can not pray more or in the numbering of prostrations and standing and bowing and what to say and how many times to say it, all of which are not mentioned in the Qur'an because it leaves it up to you.

Also another note is the Qur'an says when in a congregation situation with other Muslims, pray as the others pray.

I pray in the fashion that other Muslims pray too but with the understanding that the numberings are not from God but the invention of people and that if I wished, I could pray more, or I could pray less, or I could exchange any praise with another praise of God.

Cool thanks

quote:Originally posted by hankletank:

Cool thanks

Thanks for asking! If you have any more questions feel free to ask anytime! Does anyone else have any questions?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

"Wow its saying the sun literally went into a murky body of water" in my imagination I saw it setting, just how I see the sun setting into the ocean here, I know its not literally setting into the ocean.

If I were reading a book that said, "and then I watched the sun set into the ocean", I would not take that literally either. However, that is not how it is written in the Quran.

"he reached the setting-place of the Sun"

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

Because the Qur'an talks about the sun and the moon, orbits, and more,

So what? http://media.isnet.org/off/XIslam/IslamOnline/orbit.html

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

I don't believe that you have a grasp on what God is thus you don't believe God exists

Are you saying that because I'm a non-believer,therefore I must not have a grasp on what God is, or is it something specific that I wrote?



quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

So you were raised into a Muslim household that taught you the sun went into a muddy spring until finally you left?

Are you being facetious or is this a serious question? No, I was not taught that. I was taught that I was a muslim and Islam is the only true religion, period. There was no questioning the accuracy of the Quran. It was correct and nothing could ever be found incorrect and if it was, it was an incorrect interpretation.

When I was a child, and I questioned some things I was taught, I was always told that when I actually read and saw how perfect and beautiful the Quran was, it would make sense. Well, I can tell you that the opposite happened. I found out that God is cruel and Mohammad's revelations were unbelievably flawed. Mountains are pegs to hold down the Earth? Don't bother warning non-believers because God has sealed there hearts? Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

The men of old used to say the same as you: If there was any real hard evidence of God's existence and not books full of the obvious words of men of long ago, I'd be the first one bowing next to you.

What's the problem with that? Isn't that the rational thing to do?



quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

If I'm right about Islam then when you and I die, we'll both be ressurected and face judgement, you most probably being thrown in hell, and me hopefully being saved.

According to the Quran, if you're right, I will definitely be thrown in hell. Do you believe a just and merciful god would do that, when I'm not a disbeliever because I want to be evil, but simply because I think holy books are all written and from the minds of men? Would a just and compassionate god throw me in hell for being incorrect? That's some sweetheart of a god you believe in.



I'm positive that I'm wasting time with you, Abrahim. I'm sure you will believe anything you are shown positive about the Quran, such as someone's flawed reasoning that the Quran says that the Earth is egg shaped, but will never give another thought to something as incorrect as the Quran's statement that mountains are pegs to stop the Earth from shaking. I wish you would be open to the idea of the Quran not being divinely inspired.

Originally posted by Martini:

"If I were reading a book that said, "and then I watched the sun set into the ocean", I would not take that literally either. However, that is not how it is written in the Quran. "he reached the setting-place of the Sun""

The Qur'an is full of figures of speech and also has a revelation about figures of speech and alegories and talks about people who try to take alegories literally in order to confuse.

"he reached a place where the sun was setting" to me clearly means he traveled until he reached a place in which the sun set or rather at which the sun set. The reason the setting of the sun is mentioned is to imply the direction."

029.043

As for these similitudes, We coin them for mankind, but none will grasp their meaning save the wise.

002.026

Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors,

"Are you saying that because I'm a non-believer,therefore I must not have a grasp on what God is, or is it something specific that I wrote?"

I think it was something specific you wrote but the first also applies.

"Mountains are pegs to hold down the Earth?"

Please read the following:

http://www.nooran.org/EN/Q/3.htm

http://www.quran.org/science/QURANMOUNTAIN.htm

"Don't bother warning non-believers because God has sealed there hearts?"

002.006

As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

002.007

Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

016.106

Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a awful doom.

016.107

This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and Allah will not guide those who reject Faith.

016.108

Those are they whose hearts, ears, and eyes Allah has sealed up, and they take no heed.

016.109

Without doubt, in the Hereafter they are the losers.

063.003

That is because they believed, then they rejected Faith: So a seal was set on their hearts: therefore they understand not.

002.015

Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

002.016

These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,

002.017

Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

002.018

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not turn back.

017.097

It is he whom Allah guides, that is on true Guidance; but he whom He leaves astray - for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgment We shall gather, them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase from them the fierceness of the Fire.

017.098

That is their recompense, because they rejected Our signs, and said, "When we are reduced to bones and broken dust, should we really be raised up a new Creation?"

008.049

Lo! the hypocrites say, and those in whose hearts is a disease: "These people,- their religion has misled them." But if any trust in Allah, behold! Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.

033.012

And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease (even) say: "Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion!"

022.049

Say: O people! I am only a plain warner to you.

022.050

"Those who believe and work righteousness, for them is forgiveness and a sustenance most generous.

022.051

"But those who strive against Our Revelations, to frustrate them,- they will be Companions of the Fire."

047.020

Those who believe say, "Why is not a sura sent down (for us)?" But when a sura of basic or categorical meaning is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein, thou wilt see those in whose hearts is a disease looking at thee with a look of one in swoon at the approach of death. But more fitting for them-

047.021

Were it to obey and say what is just, and when a matter is resolved on, it were best for them if they were true to Allah.

047.022

Then, is it to be expected of you, if ye were put in authority, that ye will do mischief in the land, and break your ties of kith and kin?

047.023

Such are the men whom Allah has cursed for He has made them deaf and blinded their sight.

047.024

Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up?

047.025

Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.

"What's the problem with that? Isn't that the rational thing to do?"

Sure but even people who are supposed to be rational fall for the Qur'an as shown in multiple articles written by non Muslim scientists (who later convert due to information in the Qur'an, I can link you to several articles by them.)

Let's examine the story of Zul Qarnain:

018.085

"And he followed a course Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit."

Where was he? I think he traveled West to the Black Sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea

"Another possible explanation comes from the color of the Black Sea's deep waters. Being further north than the Mediterranean Sea and much less saline, the microalgae concentration is much more rich, hence the dark color."

018.089

"Then he followed a course

Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun. Even so! and We had a full knowledge of what he had. Then he followed a course Until, when he reached (a tract) between two mountains, he found, beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word."

Where was he? Most people think he was here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbent

where he built what has been called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_of_Alexander

"According to the Quran, if you're right, I will definitely be thrown in hell. Do you believe a just and merciful god would do that, when I'm not a disbeliever because I want to be evil, but simply because I think holy books are all written and from the minds of men? Would a just and compassionate god throw me in hell for being incorrect? That's some sweetheart of a god you believe in."

Sweetheart or not, if the threats are true, the God being a sweetheart is not of concern as much as saving my own skin. We will see if my judgement is correct or we will see nothing at all.

"I'm positive that I'm wasting time with you, Abrahim. I'm sure you will believe anything you are shown positive about the Quran, such as someone's flawed reasoning that the Quran says that the Earth is egg shaped, but will never give another thought to something as incorrect as the Quran's statement that mountains are pegs to stop the Earth from shaking. I wish you would be open to the idea of the Quran not being divinely inspired."

If I open my mind to that, won't you open your mind to the possibility that perhaps you misunderstood the Qur'an, afterall, the Pegs description that you disliked was actually pretty accurate according to those 2 websites, but even a modern person such as yourself had no idea.

Here are some cases including quotes by "rational" scientists

http://www.quran.org/science/QURANEXPANSION.htm

http://www.quran.org/science/QURANASTRONOMY.htm

http://www.quran.org/science/QURANIRON.htm

http://www.quran.org/science/koranref.htm

http://www.quran.org/science/origin.htm

http://www.quran.org/science/QURANLOWEST.htm

http://www.quran.org/science/QURANSKIN.htm

http://www.quran.org/science/QURANCLOUDS.htm

http://www.quran.org/code/

http://www.quran.org/code/allmmlh.htm

http://www.quran.org/code/beyond.htm



http://www.quran.org/science/rain.htm

http://www.quran.org/science/comet.htm

http://www.harunyahya.com/ant02.php

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

"Mountains are pegs to hold down the Earth?"

Please read the following:

I read your links. They are full of holes and half truths in an attempt to convince the layman that mountains were put on the Earth as pegs to stop it from shaking.

quote:They also discovered that mountains have roots that help them float and keep fastened to the plates of the earth so it will not shake.

Any geologist will tell you that this statement is false. Mountains do not stop anything from shaking! Most mountains are formed from collisions of plates below the earth's surface. They were formed from the Earth shaking, and they do not stop anything from shaking, period!



quote:The function of mountains on the earth is to fasten the crust of the earth.

Not true. Fasten the crust of the Earth to what? Mountains do not have a function.



I told you I have seen enough links full of nonsense from muslim apologists. I'm not going to go through each one of them and deconstruct their arguments.

quote:If I open my mind to that, won't you open your mind to the possibility that perhaps you misunderstood the Qur'an

So you're admitting that your mind has not been open to the possibility that the Quran is merely the creation of man? What will you do to find out if you were incorrect with your newly opened mind?

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

So you're admitting that your mind has not been open to the possibility that the Quran is merely the creation of man? What will you do to find out if you were incorrect with your newly opened mind?



http://dl.ccc.cccd.edu/classes/telecourses/geology100/IntroLecture2.htm

"Isostatic Balance Diagram:

This diagram shows how blocks of wood floating on water can be compared to blocks of crust floating on the mantle. Like an iceberg floating in the water, only a small part of the wooden block shows above the surface.

The parts of the crust do the same when floating on the mantle. Tall land masses like mountains have huge roots pushing down into the mantle to stabilize them. The taller the mountains the deeper the roots push into the mantle. Valleys on land and oceanic trenches at sea have the most shallow roots."

http://www.islamonline.net/English/Science/2002/08/article07.shtml

People back in the time of the Qur'an did not know about Mountain roots or their role in stabilizing mountains.

This is the second time I argued about this on a message board and the second time that community college's website was used to prove the Quran correct. Funny how it's the only seemingly non-biased cite that makes such a statement It's either incorrect or not worded properly. I've asked geology professors about mountains stabilizing the Earth and the answer was a big no both times. Mountains do not stabilize the Earth. There is nothing miraculous about a belief from long ago about mountains being used to stabilize the Earth; ridiculous is more like it.

What you're doing is the same thing that some do with Nostadamus' predictions. You're taking vague statements and fitting them in with current knowledge (often incorrect, such as the ostrich egg thing and a community college's use of the word stabilize) to prove something written long ago was miraculous.

Since you didn't answer me about how you would go about being open minded, I'll take it that you don't plan on it.

hey Abrahim...what is the islamic judgment day meant to be like? i heard something about a well :S sorry if this has been asked before

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

This is the second time I argued about this on a message board and the second time that community college's website was used to prove the Quran correct. Funny how it's the only seemingly non-biased cite that makes such a statement It's either incorrect or not worded properly. I've asked geology professors about mountains stabilizing the Earth and the answer was a big no both times. Mountains do not stabilize the Earth. There is nothing miraculous about a belief from long ago about mountains being used to stabilize the Earth; ridiculous is more like it.

What you're doing is the same thing that some do with Nostadamus' predictions. You're taking vague statements and fitting them in with current knowledge (often incorrect, such as the ostrich egg thing and a community college's use of the word stabilize) to prove something written long ago was miraculous.

Since you didn't answer me about how you would go about being open minded, I'll take it that you don't plan on it.

I know it might seem like a lie but in fact I feel I'm pretty open minded and whenever the Qur'an has said something that doesn't seem right or that I tend to disagree with at first I study it and find that it is indeed more true than a realized and an understanding comes to me and I then am increased in Faith. This kind of thing is mentioned in the Qur'an, it is one the consequences of being a believer. In the case of those who disbelieve, those who have no faith, they are only increased in disbelief and obstinate rebellion when the verses of the Qur'an are rehearsed to them.

You were fortunate in a way, in my opinion, to be born into a house where the Qur'an was readilly available, then again extremely unfortunate that you turned away and will now, perhaps, have to face the consequences of your error after the ressurection, let's hope it doesn't happen.

The way in which the Mountains are Pegs is that they are wedge shaped like a peg going down into the Earth, this helps to Stabilize them. Furthermore you can read about how Mountains effect Gravity.

Besides this Mountain thing the Qur'an has other amazing science in it, and like the Qur'an says, the disbelievers will mock while I am in a state of wonder and that is exactly how it is.

I looked up alot of stuff about the science in the Qur'an and it was just beautiful, but for you it is just a bunch of men filling themselves with false hopes.

We will see which one of us is right soon enough.

You do have a chance now, your last chance perhaps, to study the Qur'an in detail, look at all these claims these people make, read all kinds of websites and read the Qur'an to see if you will become a believer or remain in a state of rebellion, a covenant breaker.

quote:Originally posted by rasta_rider:

hey Abrahim...what is the islamic judgment day meant to be like? i heard something about a well :S sorry if this has been asked before

Thank you SO Much for the Question!

Judgement day comes all of a sudden when people are doing what they usually do, there is an extremely violent Earth Quake that even mountains are brought low, and then there is a sharp sound, so sharp that everyone is instantly killed. The Earth is entirely leveled.

Then the ressurection occurs, everyone is recreated, their bones, muscle, flesh, veins re assembled down to the details on their fingertips and they wake up, and those who were dead from the past also wake up and then they face the Judgement.

Everyone testifies against themselves, every part of their body says what it was used for and made to do. A person is shown what they had sent forth in life.

On that day the innocent will be in state of peace while the guilty will be in a state of shame.

There is a portion about the light shining forth from the foreheads of those who used to prostrate themselves (bow down) and worship God will be shining brightly to guide them through the darkness of one portion of Judgement Day, while the others are given a candle and those with they candle as they try to walk to the destination, are stripped of the light and thrown into hell fire.

This is a metaphor for an example given to disbelievers in how they kindle a fire and when the light is stripped away they are left in total darkness, blind.

The people who did good will inherit the Earth, which is transformed into a more spacious and beautiful, peaceful Earth, while the people who did bad will inherit hell which is also a literal location.

The portion of the well might be in hell in which the evil doers drink from a spring of boiling hot water.

Paradise is a place in which gardens are underneath which rivers flow and no excesses in heat or discomfort occur.

Hell is like a literal manifestation of a metaphor in which people face the likeness of how they spent their life or what it is they did in life, a place of extremes. The fire burns off the skin but the skin is replaced immediately so that the punishment endures and one can never grow accustomed to it.

It is relatively easy to achieve Paradise. One must simply follow the Qur'an and Worship God in the way in which the Qur'an mentions as well as do good and avoid bad.

I read in a couple places that in Islam even Satan will reach paradise eventually

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

I read in a couple places that in Islam even Satan will reach paradise eventually

There is nothing in the Qur'an that says that Satan will reach paradise eventually.

002.080

And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"

003.024

This because they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days": For their forgeries deceive them as to their own religion.

____________________________________________

Paradise and Punishment do seem to be hinted at as Ever lasting states. Though the following revelation is thought by some, like those mentioned above as a temporary hell when it says "ages" but the Qur'an clearifies that they will be granted no increase save in punishment which implies that they won't be redeemed at any point.

078.021

Surely hell lies in wait,

078.022

For the transgressors a place of destination:

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They will dwell therein for ages.

078.024

Nothing cool shall they taste therein, nor any drink,

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Save boiling water and a paralysing cold:

078.026

Reward proportioned

078.027

Surely they feared not the account,

078.028

They called Our revelations false with strong denial.

078.029

And all things have We preserved on record.

078.030

"So taste ye; for no increase shall We grant you, except in Punishment."

According to the Qur'an, Iblis, the cheif among the Jinn (beings described is being made of smokeless fire, like electricity, they can move at incredible speeds as well as move objects from long distances in the twinkling of an eye) who is thought to be synonymous with Shaitan, will be in hell with everyone else.

007.011

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate.

007.012

(It was) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from mud."

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He said: Then get forth from this (state), for it does not befit you to behave proudly therein. Go forth, therefore, surely you are of the abject ones.

007.014

He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."

007.015

(It was) said: "Be thou among those who have respite."

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He said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path

007.017

Then I will certainly come to them from before them and from behind them, and from their right-hand side and from their left-hand side; and Thou shalt not find most of them thankful.

007.018

(It was) said: Get out of this (state), despised, driven away; whoever of them will follow you, I will certainly fill hell with you all.

007.020

Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."

007.021

And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.

007.022

Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you?

007.023

They said: Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If thou forgive us not and have not mercy on us, surely we are of the lost!

007.024

He said: Go down (from hence), one of you a foe unto the other. There will be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a while.

007.025

He said: There shall ye live, and there shall ye die, and thence shall ye be brought forth.

007.026

O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition!

007.027

O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends to those without faith.

007.028

When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?"

007.029

Say: "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere as in His sight: such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return."

So, Muslims believe that the Bible was corrupted right? Thats why it and the Koran conflict, yes?

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

So, Muslims believe that the Bible was corrupted right? Thats why it and the Koran conflict, yes?

The Qur'an explains that the Torah was corrupted by editing, changing things, removing things, and adding things.

The Old Testament conflicts with the Qur'an only in that the Qur'an finds that it lies without knowledge on matters.

I personally find that it blasphemies honest prophets by making false claims, such as the claim that Noah got drunk and naked and performed incest, what a horrible thing to say about God's Prophet.

Also concepts like "sons of God" and "Man in God's Image" are incorrect according to the Qur'an.

The Old Testament is not really in conflict with the Qur'an, the same or similar stories clearified can be found in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is the final revelation of God to mankind.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

Noah got drunk and naked and performed incest

Cite?

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by Abrahim

Noah got drunk and naked and performed incest

Cite?

Wikipedia:

"The story of Noah concludes: "Noah was the first tiller of the soil. He planted a vineyard; and he drank of the wine, and became drunk, and lay uncovered in his tent." Noah's son Ham saw his father naked and informed his brothers, who covered Noah while averting their eyes. Noah awoke and cursed Ham's son Canaan with eternal slavery, while giving his blessing to Shem and Japheth: "Blessed by the Lord my God be Shem; and let Canaan be his slave. God enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave."[6]"

and

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mdrunknoah.html for more information which might actually clear up the claims.

So you read on the internet that it is speculated that Ham may have castrated or sodomized Noah while he was passed out, and you think that is justification for writing that the Bible says "Noah got drunk and naked [i]and performed incest[/b]"

Who is blaspheming, the Bible or you?

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

So you read on the internet that it is speculated that Ham may have castrated or sodomized Noah while he was passed out, and you think that is justification for writing that the Bible says "Noah got drunk and naked [i]and performed incest"

Who is blaspheming, the Bible or you?[/B]

I don't believe that Noah got drunk or performed incest. The Qur'an indicates that Prophets were righteous people who were good and avoided wrong and it does not have any stories of events in which Prophets do such things but rather it says that those stories are only the conjecture of people and inventions.

Don't Muslims also believe the New Testament was corrupted?

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Don't Muslims also believe the New Testament was corrupted?

The Qur'an says that Jesus directly brought the book called the Injeel, which is translated by some as Gospels but is not the Gospels but rather the Injeel which is Jesus's book. So the New Testament isn't considered a holy text like the Taurath.

so is the injeel a lost book?

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

so is the injeel a lost book?

Yes I think so, so are the "Scrolls of Abraham". The other book is called Zabur and was brought by David, it is often connected to the Psalms.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

so is the injeel a lost book?

Yes it seems to be, most likely it was hidden or destroyed by the B'nei Israel who it was given to when Jesus left them.

The Injeel was the 4th book in the series of revelation that has come to mankind, according to the Qur'an.

The Scripture of Abraham (Ibrahim), The Zabur of David (Dawud), The Taurath of Moses(Musa), The Injeel of Jesus (Isa), and the Qur'an of Muhammed (Ahmed)...

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

I don't believe that Noah got drunk or performed incest.

My point is that the Bible never says that Noah performed incest.

I would have thought that you would have taken back such a statement after I pointed out to you that this is not in the Bible, but instead you post a cite that says some people think someone else may have performed incest on him while he was passed out, as a way to back your statement up. I'm a little disappointed in you.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

My point is that the Bible never says that Noah performed incest.

I would have thought that you would have taken back such a statement after I pointed out to you that this is not in the Bible, but instead you post a cite that says some people think someone else may have performed incest on him while he was passed out, as a way to back your statement up. I'm a little disappointed in you.

That's alright if you're disappointed in me, I'm very happy to learn that incest related to Noah is not clearly cited in the Old Testament.

I have a question.

Can a muslim smoke weed? Its not written in the Qu'ran(thats what my muslimn friend told me)



And i dont think weed is considered as a drug (like heroin dxm XTC etc tec)



[This message has been edited by Gamba (edited 08-16-2006).]

quote:Originally posted my Gamba

And i dont think weed is considered as a drug

Gotta use that one on my parole officer.

quote:Originally posted by Gamba:

I have a question.

Can a muslim smoke weed? Its not written in the Qu'ran(thats what my muslimn friend told me)



And i dont think weed is considered as a drug (like heroin dxm XTC etc tec)





The Qur'an forbids Alcohol and loosely anything that intoxicates or causes the mind to become befogged. It also forbids anything that is not wholesome or good for your health.

I believe that marajuana smoked, goes into the lungs and isn't exactly good for the lungs, causes the mind to become befogged, and can be considered and intoxicant.

Smoking Marajuana or Smoking in general is not mentioned in the Qur'an, but the Qur'an implies that anything not good for the health or whatever might cause you to become intoxicated or drunk or befogged of mind, you are prescribed not to do it.

Can you answer why it seems that the religion islam, more times than not pieces of shit like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a direct result of the teachings of Islam? HUH? WHY?

Also, I was wondering if all islams had an apocalyptic deathwish.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The Qur'an forbids Alcohol and loosely anything that intoxicates or causes the mind to become befogged. It also forbids anything that is not wholesome or good for your health.

I believe that marajuana smoked, goes into the lungs and isn't exactly good for the lungs, causes the mind to become befogged, and can be considered and intoxicant.

Smoking Marajuana or Smoking in general is not mentioned in the Qur'an, but the Qur'an implies that anything not good for the health or whatever might cause you to become intoxicated or drunk or befogged of mind, you are prescribed not to do it.



Well cigarettes aren't good for your health and still muslims smoke it and aren't considered as ''hallam'', so I guess marijuana is the same right?

quote:Originally posted by Gamba:

Well cigarettes aren't good for your health and still muslims smoke it and aren't considered as ''hallam'', so I guess marijuana is the same right?

Cigarettes aren't considered Haram (Forbidden) by many Muslims but are indeed not wholesome or good for the health, they damage the body which one should be thankful for, a gift, so in my opinion they are bad and one should not smoke as they are disrespecting the gift that is their body and taking it for granted by deliberately damaging it. The Qur'an says what is allowed is anything that is wholesome and good (for you), and cigarettes are not wholesome or good for the health.

Why did you ignore my question? It's a legitamite question!

quote:Originally posted by SlpCtrl:

Can you answer why it seems that the religion islam, more times than not pieces of shit like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a direct result of the teachings of Islam? HUH? WHY?

Also, I was wondering if all islams had an apocalyptic deathwish.

I don't see how Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a direct result of the teachings of Islam and I don't know what deathwish for the apocalypse you might be reffering to, though the religion does include a day of Ressurection, Judgement Day.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I don't see how Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a direct result of the teachings of Islam and I don't know what deathwish for the apocalypse you might be reffering to, though the religion does include a day of Ressurection, Judgement Day.



Do all islamic people hate jews?

quote:Originally posted by SlpCtrl:

Do all islamic people hate jews?

No, not all people who call themselves Muslims hate people who call themselves Jews.

Any Other Questions?

Why are Muslims so opposed to homosexuals?

quote:Originally posted by Summer of George:

Why are Muslims so opposed to homosexuals?

Mainly because the Qur'an talks about homosexuals and refers to it as a lewd abomination (the act of anal sex, men in unto men). The Qur'an is generally against lewdness, clearly implicates that men are for women and vice versa and not to be lewd or indecent or undignified and that men going in unto men is an abomination.

Any other questions?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Any other questions?

Yes, must you keep spamming with the "any other questions?" posts, looking for attention? If people want to ask a question, they will; these posts are a waste of server space!

C'mon Abrahim. Someone actually started a thread complaining about you doing this and it was explained to you that it is bad netiquette. Knock it off.

I saw several threads about Islam asking singular questions about it that could've also been asked here. I'm just reminding new folks that this thread exists for questions in relation to the religion of Islam.