Ok lets begin! Pro = P, Con = C. Feel free to add your own versions!

Athiesm:

P:No boundaries except that which one chooses for their own reasons by their own will. Athiesm is the belief that there is no God or higher power save those we imagine to rule our actions.

C:Never explains how something can come from nothing, as when there is nothing, there is always nothing, its impossible for nothing to do anything. Leaves many without a "reason" to live as it lacks reward or punishment in the afterlife, people simply die and are dead. One does thing for their living benefit and the benefit of others but never having anything after life to look forward to.

Bhuddism:

P:For those who actually follow the RELIGION and PRESCRIPTIONS of original bhuddism and its "paths" it is a fantastic lifestyle adjustment package which promotes the belief that suffering exists but CAN be ended by performing right action and basically doing and thinking things right!

C:Bhuddism in modern times seems to lack any higher power so many Bhuddists in asian countries depend on statues of Bhudda and other saints for guidance and reassurance, leaving offerings and paying tribute. Bhuddism also includes reincarnation which is the belief that one returns constantly until they reach nirvana or ultimate truth and ends suffering (within themselves at least). This might allow some to feel they can do anything without major consequence as they will return and be given infinite chances to change. Some may not want to end the cycle or learn what needs to be learned to move on. Some forms of Bhuddism DO have Paradises and Hells which evil doers go to for temporary punishments for their deeds.

Christianity:

P:Christianity believes in a higher power and a humanistic relateable example for Mankind (Jesus). It reccomends people to do good and right, and to be good, and that they will be rewarded, not specifically for their good deeds, but for accepting Jesus as the begotten son of God.

C: Hi, I'm God, this is my Son, he is Me, I am him, and lets not forget our spirit friend casper, he's also me, and my son, and we're all one, but we're 3 too! Christianity tends to not make much sense and thus Christians find it hard to explain without "faith" and "God works in mysterious(possibly retarded) ways. Many Christians move to athiesm during their teen or adult years due to this utter confusion in the Trinity. The best possible Christian explanation might be that God has 3 incarnations that were active all at once, as God is capable of all things, so he sent his Son incarnation, Jesus, to be born as a baby in Mary who was a virgin, and he peed and shat and bled and anyway he died for mankinds sins and forgave all and then was ressurected and went back up to his father who is him. Of course one can ask, is God such a thing that begets children, and God is in the image of man? Christianity, and Catholicism tends to develop into idol worship rapidly, if not worshipping Jesus as an image and idol, then saints. Christianity doesnt specifically give credit for being good, nor do Christians believe those who do not accept Jesus are forgiven by the sacrificial scape goat law (Originally developed in Judaism in which a goat or lamb was sacrificed to clear the sins of the village). Shouldn't God be beyond having Sons? Shouldn't God count good and bad, for hell and heaven, rather than simply believing in a Son? A humanistic idea of God that tends to make no sense.

Hinduism:

P:A religion with many various stories and dieties its core belief is that All the dieties are representative parts of one God.

C:Aspects of One God have been so deeply confused by most that people worship and pay tribute to statues which represent aspects of God rather than the whole of God. Reincarnation, one keeps coming back no matter what they do, it doesn't really explain new births and souls since population increases. One new age guy suggested souls split and go into lots of different people, YOU COULD ALL BE A LITTLE BIT OF NAPOLEON!

Islam:

P:Monotheistic to the core, Islam believes in only One God, No Children, No Trinity, No Partners. Its book, the Qur'an, is very clear and contains scientific proof which has been proven only recently which it claims verifies it from a source of higher knowledge. God in the Qur'an is described as "Reality" (Al-Haq) Surrounding everything, all encompassing, nothing existing without it. The Qur'anic God if one reads carefully tends to be less humanistic than the God of the Bible. Islam includes ressurection, judgement day, and everyone getting exactly what they deserve, punishment or peace in paradise.

C:Modern day Muslims tend to Ignore the Qur'an and instead follow books called Hadiths, which are said to be the teachings of the prophet. They are stories collected 200 years after events told by people who told other people who told other people who finally told the collector. Much of Modern Islamic Law and Belief, Tradition, is based on Hadiths which when examined in contrast to the Qur'an tend to make their own rules with any authority as the Qur'an clearifies the Prophet had no knowledge save what the Qur'an told him, no Authority to make up stuff, and no duty other than to convey the message of the Qur'an. Hadiths were written for multiple reasons including political reasons which incorporate ideas from converts who wanted to bring bits of their old religions into the new one. Including ideas of the Anti Christ, Jesus's Return and more! The Hadith can be blamed for Modern Muslim Behavior and thought, see a woman wearing a head cover, know she is not following the Qur'an but Tradition as mentioned in the Hadith, a man made book.

Judaism:

P:Judaism is a monotheistic religion that believes in right action.

C:Judaism in modern times lacks an afterlife, the ultimate punishment being death. It is considered by some to be a Race of Chosen people, rather than a religion for all, and is swamped with piles of books of traditions and teachings by many Rabbi's. Ideas of ressurection and judgement have also been removed over time but hints of a reward in God's kingdom on Earth do exist.

Modern Satanism:

P: One should do things for themselves. This is not a negative belief and is generally true. Self Sacrifice is silly if one doesnt benefit from it! You are your own God! Think for yourself, make your own decisions, "The Whole of the Law Shall be Do What Thou Will".

C: No real belief in an afterlife, reward or consequence, or anything, like a form of athiesm basically which incorporates "Will to Power". Some misunderstand this as "Be a complete ass if thats what you feel like doing." But it really means do what you want to do without letting religious ideas and dogma hold you back. It was intended to free people rather than make them jerks.

Satanism:

P:The belief that Satan, is "The Light" and true power, and that God is just a dead false idea. Sometimes a dualistic battle is included where God is the bad guy.

C:Some Satanists claim God is a lie and there is only Satan, but I find it silly to not believe in God and to believe in a counter concept to God just as silly as a humanistic God, Satan.

Scientology:

P:Helps people deal with their problems through auditing (therapy) and gets people off drugs and alcohol.

C:Once you get deeper in scientology you find it has certain unrealistic beliefs which one is required to believe and experience, such as the history of Xenu and his tax auditing of humanoid "Thetans" who he take in space 747's and put on a volcanoe on Earth (TeeGeeAck) and blue them up with nukes, and then their souls spread and he got electric bows and then caught them, and made them watch movies which are what caused people to believe in everything and have ideas like Crucifiction and more.

Its very funny really. Essentially Scientologists on the top levels are preparing for a full out war with Alien invaders (Angels as mentioned in the book of revelation in the Bible) who will conquer the Earth and enslave mankind. The Children of Scientologists will have to battle these aliens in their space planes this is why most scientologists learn piloting. It seems at times like a strange kind of Anti Christianity religion when one gets deep into it, the sole motivation of the highest levels of Scientology is to prevent "Judgement day" and defeat the evil aliens who lie to mankind about being from "God".

Taoism:

P:Circles, Balance, Peace with ones environment. Taoism promotes peaceful balance and unity and also tends to believe in a source of power to all things, like an essential energy existing everywhere.

C:Circles...Now what?

Wicca:

P:Essentially at the top of it all the belief is that there is an ultimate "Source" to all things, "The Light" or "God", but that from that source come a multitude of Gods and spirits which compose of the spiritual universe we live within. One should harness these forces to their advantage and understand them. Magick and spells may sound silly to some but can be very convincing to those who perform and believe in them, thus resulting in positive effect and thinking in some cases.

C:Wiccanism lacks any clearly defined or authoritative laws and beliefs, but mainly assists people in getting in touch with their spiritual self and using Magick to their advantage. There is no real right or wrong, no good or evil really, all is part of the Source. There is Dark and Light magic, Night and Day magic, and much more. Its a very free and new age form of Paganism which many different beliefs and no set of rules.

Zoroastrianism:

P:Originally complete monotheistic, Zoroaster is said to have preached about the One God, Ahuramazda (Wise Lord). It promotes being good and doing right and worshipping God.

C:Later a second book was introduced which introduced other Gods, and a main enemy of the now humanized Ahuramazda which was represented by a huge serpent which Ahuramazda constantly does battle with. Other concepts introduced were use of fire in the worship of Ahuramazda. It became another pantheon of lesser spirits and dieties which one might also pay tribute to.

Humans have a tendency to take the idea of One source, Reality, God, whatever you might call it, and take each of its aspects and describe them humanistically. Later people take those humanistic descriptions as literal truth and seperate dieties. The One God being the God of the ocean and the forest, later becoming seperate Ocean God and Forest God.

I believe that belief in the religion of the Qur'an is currently the best religion, it contains scientific proof, speaks directly as God rather than telling stories indirectly (It tells them directly in first person as God speaking through the Book). It seems to suggest that what is forbidden is bad for people and what is allowed is not harmful to them (For Example Alcohol is said to have some utility but more harm therefor not to do it, same with Gambling and intoxicants).

It includes scientific proof such as the layers of the atmosphere, a description of a phase of embryo development which can only be seen by an electric lit microscope in the womb, crusts of the earth, evolution in the oceans, creation of earth and its phases accurately described (in various sections), cosmic gasses, black holes in space, and much more! Most modern muslims openly disbelieve in such things and disobey the Qur'an taking instead Tradition books made by men called Hadiths. They claim the Qur'an is not understandable without these books while the Qur'an says its complete, made for people to understand, and clear.

Which is the Right Religion?

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 05-14-2006).]

Comedy Version of the Above:

Athiesm:

Dayr aint nuttin out dayr floatin round in space wid a big skullsac, dayr on me, earth, and alot of pu.

Bhuddism:

Life Sucks, But it Don't hafta if you do things right, and when you're doin things perfectly right you will suddenly go POOF and wont come back as a Chihuahua

Christianity:

Hi my name is Jesus, I have a dad up there, he loves me, and I love you. By the way, I'm your Lord, he's your God, I'm him though so that makes me your God too, and I'm also a holy ghost. I was sent by my father (me) with the help of ghost(casper) I was inserted magically in my mommy Mary who is human. All yall Humans are Born from Sin in Sin and Will Sin, Yall are gonna BURN IN HELL NO MATTER WHAT, UNLESS YOU ACCEPT ME AS YOUR LORD AND SON OF GOD WHO IS GOD AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, k thx bye. Oh by the way, you thankless jerks, I became a BABY for YOU, I shat, peed, ate, and BLED for YOU! Just like God would!

Hinduism:

You got one God, I've got a whole army of them.

Islam:

One word representing Islam, past, present, future: BOOM!

Modern Satanism:

NOTHING CAN STOP ME NOW! EXCEPT EVERYTHING ELSE!

Satanism:

I PEE ON GOD's GRAVE!

Scientology:

If you study it a little, it speaks for itself lol.

Taoism:

Am Taoist cuz am listen to perfukt circle!

Wicca:

Hippies get free candles!

Zoroastrianism: www.myspace.com/abrahimesker (http://www.myspace.com/abrahimesker) (Listen to my song Aufstieg Rise which I performed in 100% voice no instruments, even the drums in it are my voice! But its about fire!)

Atheism isn't a religion. All the religions are wrong.

True Athiesm isnt a religion as much as an anti religion like Modern Satanism so I thought it might fit in, some people are almost Religiously Athiest in their hatered for religion. Some people blame religion for all chaos in the world and hatered. I explain that religions by themselves don't cause chaos, but the people who claim to follow them. If all religions were taken away people would still find things to fight about. If all power was equal and we all looked the same we would STILL find actions to fight about and disagree on. If absolutely everything was the same, we wouldn't be human anymore. Anyway, how are you so sure all religions are wrong?

Any other comments?

Hail Satan! Not Modern Satanism, beacuse Anton LaVey needs to get analy raped by a gorilla.



You have some pretty solid understanding of religions. Of course, I'm not going to try and argue with you about any of them, because we all know it's pretty much pointless. But, I want to ask you something. What religion/anti-religion do you fall under?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Wicca:

Hippies get free candles!

I loled. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Hinduism:

You got one God, I've got a whole army of them.



Good stuff.

Agnostic is the true "religion", if it can be recognized as one. Truly, no one knows.

Since all these are based on the beliefs of men, I'd have to say none of them are right. FOR ONLY I HAVE THE ANSWER.

You need to do some more research on satanism and some other beliefs.

Also, none are "the truth", but people can still live by them.

And atheism/agnosticism aren't religions.

THat was a great post.

As long as you feel good its probably ok...

im pretty scared of dieing 0123

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Mellow Fellow:

[B]You need to do some more research on satanism and some other beliefs.

Also, none are "the truth", but people can still live by them.



http://www.answers.com/topic/truth http://www.thymos.com/science/truth.html



Truth, itself, is above religion. For instance one may have truth but be unaware of God, this is how I discovered reality; i am, rather than i am believing...



Reality is circumstantial but belongs perfectly within truth,



direct qoute from thymos -

"This point is important because we are supposed to define truth outside us: truth must not depend on us, it must depend on the world. Something is true not because I think so, but because there is some objective truth out there in the world."



http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

some guy will define it properly some day...



But being in/with truth, they are in agreement with God irrelevant of the association or religion they belong to for religion comes from words were as truth is timeless and at one, similar to nirvana except that the achievement of nirvana is possibly incorrect because there are (possibly) no true words as words are fallible due to the interruption of verification, nirvana being verified by teachings which are falable also.



I liked the concluding sentance of the second link.



peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)



[This message has been edited by Lou Reed (edited 05-14-2006).]

Well your definitin on atheism is completely wrong. 1) its not a religion. 2) it only means one is not a theist. That is all. Nothing to do with afterlife or creation. If you aren't a theist you are an atheist.

Does any religion explain how something comes from nothing? There is no explanation for where god came from... the story goes he simply has always existed.

blatently written by a christian, it's so fucking biased against atheism and agnosticism, and "general unbelief in the supernatural" (which is the way to go in my opinion)

www.JoyofSatan.com (http://www.JoyofSatan.com)

read that for a better understanding of Traditional Satanism.

quote:Originally posted by Megalodon:

www.JoyofSatan.com (http://www.JoyofSatan.com)

read that for a better understanding of Traditional Satanism.

Yikes.

Do more research on Buddhism, beacuse your Con is incorrect.

Firstly I want to thank ALL of you who posted in this topic, and I also want to thank you all for reading it, I really appreciate that! Thank you!

Alright to Megalodon: I want to thank him for the compliment!

To Elephantitis Man: hahah I'm glad you liked that! I laughed at that one too!

To postdiluvium: http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I'm glad you enjoyed that!

To evilyuffie: What's the answer!?

To Mellow_Fellow: Which other beliefs? I tried to give a sort of generalized account of the religions based on people I talked to and things I've read. I may have read some things that were untrue or incorrect online or in talking to people who didn't know. There are actually a few forms of Satanism, even a persian version where he is worshipped by some groups of people.

To Lou Reed: Thanks man, glad you liked it! Why are you scared of dying? I mean specifically.

To Lou Reed: Thanks for answering to Mellow Fellow!

To Real.PUA: You're right, Athiesm is not a religion. I felt it belonged in the list, despite not being a religion as it is in direct contradiction to many world religions.

To Real.PUA: I'm not sure I'd believe in a God that had an origin. In most explanations God is beyond linear time in a way and was and always is. In my own belief God is Reality, that something can not come from nothing, nothing only remains nothing always, so that there had to be some base for this universe to exist and be able to manifest upon, knowledge/numbers/mathematics, systems which had to be in place to allow for all the possibilities. In my belief, if there was ever nothing in the beginning, there would still be nothing, cause something can't come from nothing!

To TerminatorVinitiatoR: lol I like being called a Christian, it makes me feel all ghost hooded in some warm cotton bed sheets. I thought I made alot of fun of Christianity in the article and how it doesn't make sense with the whole Hi I'm the son of my father who is me and casper!

To Megalodon: Thank you SO much for that site!

To smallpox champion: Hehehe

To Moridin: Thanks for the tip, what exactly is incorrect in the Con part of the Bhuddism? I think you're right I just want to know how you would change it!

Ok hopefully that answered all of your posts here! Thanks once again for posting here, I really appreciate it! I'd love to talk to all on MSN Messenger, if you have it, at caligulaoctavius@hotmail.com or on Yahoo Messenger at abrahim_esker .

Feel free to post any additional thoughts, comments, or questions here!

Anyone? (I'm so happy this article didn't completely bomb straight away!)

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

To Real.PUA: You're right, Athiesm is not a religion. I felt it belonged in the list, despite not being a religion as it is in direct contradiction to many world religions.

True, but what you describe isn't atheism. You descrived something else perhaps akin to naturalism. Someone could believe in the supernatural and still be an atheist.

quote:To Real.PUA: I'm not sure I'd believe in a God that had an origin. In most explanations God is beyond linear time in a way and was and always is. In my own belief God is Reality, that something can not come from nothing, nothing only remains nothing always, so that there had to be some base for this universe to exist and be able to manifest upon, knowledge/numbers/mathematics, systems which had to be in place to allow for all the possibilities. In my belief, if there was ever nothing in the beginning, there would still be nothing, cause something can't come from nothing!



That's fine. What does this have to do with atheism? What does this have to do with science?

If you are referring to the big bang theory then maybe you should look more into it because it does not state that something came from nothing.

Postulating the existence of god only creates more questions. Where did god come from? Why does god exist? The exact same questions we have about the universe! ...Except now we conveniently can obey the book that god wrote, no longer need to fear death (there's an afterlife), and can BS are way to any answer we want.

Now you believe that God is reality... I take that to mean you don't believe in the "living god" that christains and muslims believe. Well, why call it god then? Why not just call it 'the universe'?

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 05-15-2006).]

The Big Bang is the scientific theory that the universe emerged from an enormously dense and hot state about 13.7 billion years ago.

I'm saying that for a "hot and dense state" or any state at all to exist, there had to be a plain for it to exist, one that is infinite and encompassing all possibilities, something had to manifest the possibility and physics for a "hot and dense state" those are physical things, heat, density and something non physical had to be there to have those concepts, the complex mathematics and physics to allow to to exist and happen to have the possibility for it to happen available, im saying nothing can't do this, so I'm saying that first essential thing that is there, was always there, and will always be there, the ultimate reality, is this all encompassing thing, infinite, manifestor of possibilities, God. It may seem like the wrong word but im saying thats the real God, not the humanized understanding people try to explain it by. People say "Where did God come from" without understanding God is not a being of matter but the essential source and plain which allows and sustains the existance and movement of the universe. The place where possibilities exist and can occur. Essentially God is all there ever was and God is all there still is. It didn't come from anywhere because there is no place to come from, it doesnt operate on linear time. Its one that was always there prior to any universe and the only thing which allows and manifests such physical possibilities as heat and density, heat and density can not exist within nothing nor manifest themselves suddenly from nothing.

I read a little more on Satanism, and the Yezidi people. There are different forms of Satanism. Christian based Satanism, Muslim based Satanism, Mixed Satanism, Modern Satanism, and much more! I love demons and satanism! I wish the books were written a little cooler, I like the book where Solomon is talking to the demons more than the books on www.joyofsatan.com (http://www.joyofsatan.com) . Here, check this out http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/demonlistA-E.asp

Somewhere in there is a link to some parts of the book I'm talking about.

Another funny thing I noticed on the Satan site is they said

"We DO NOT advocate or participate in any blood or living sacrifice." then they said "For Initiations, as long as your blood is on that paper, and the paper is burnt, and your desire is to unite with Satan, the color of the candle is not of great importance" then they said "Deuteronomy 12:27

And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God:"

lol Oopz

Besides all that I LOVE the Peacock symbolism in connection with Yezidi Satan worship. Peacocks are often in connection with pride which is the main quality of Iblis. Yezidi Satanism in modern times seems to be an offshoot from Islam even though it doesn't seem to incorporate any real anti islamic concepts. Shaitan is a vague word representing a multitude of evil people, jinn, and negative thoughts, arrogance, pride, and more. Shaitan (Pride, Evil, Anger) being an Enemy to mankind.

The Joy of Satan is still an interesting read, but not my favorite Demon and Satanic book as I don't really prefer how they write Satan's dialogue, I wish it was "cooler" and more whispery and convincing. Like it was coming from all sides.

Any other comments?

My only other comment is that you have redefined god.

are there actualy any satanists here?

Yes I have redifined God and wish to change people's idea about God which is causing many to become disenchanted with religion. My idea is not my own though and does come from a religion, and I do believe it was an older idea but due to difficulty to understand by some it was humanized and turned much more "spiritual" and "mystical".

www.joyofsatan.com (http://www.joyofsatan.com) is where theistic Satanists on totse tend to send people, but I didn't find it as cool as some other forms of Satanism.

It's not the idea of god that makes people disenchanted with religion, its the idea that one must believe in something without any supporting evidence.

If you want to absract the concept of god to the point where god is the universe then you can, but its not god.

I'll redefine go to be peaches. God is now peaches... okay I believe in god.

Let me put this another way to explain why the magical term 'god' is a poor way to describe the universe.

The vast majority of the information in the universe is simply vibrations... that's it. So god as you call it is just thinking about vibrations you are just as insignificant as you always were.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Let me put this another way to explain why the magical term 'god' is a poor way to describe the universe.

The vast majority of the information in the universe is simply vibrations... that's it. So god as you call it is just thinking about vibrations you are just as insignificant as you always were.

I'm saying that God is what the universe is within and existing by and that I am no greater than anything else since we are all made of, and part of the same one thing. What proof of God do you require? God can provide scientific proof unknown at the time and people will still mock it and disbelieve. What would satisfy the proof you require to believe in God?

Any other comments?

The proof I need is something "supernatural" to happen.

Calling an ant a female is just plain laughable as far as that goes. That's not a "scientific proof" .... They had a 50% shot at getting it right. Now if they said that ants were haploid-diploid that would be something.

And what other scientific proofs do you allude to? That we are all made of "smaller stuff" or that we are made of the same stuff as the universe? God did not provide that information man figured it out, it wasnt that hard.

You seem to be under the umpression that god wrote a book, thats pretty silly. Actually, it's not silly. It's dangerous.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 05-17-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

The proof I need is something "supernatural" to happen.

Calling an ant a female is just plain laughable as far as that goes. That's not a "scientific proof" .... They had a 50% shot at getting it right. Now if they said that ants were haploid-diploid that would be something.

And what other scientific proofs do you allude to? That we are all made of "smaller stuff" or that we are made of the same stuff as the universe? God did not provide that information man figured it out, it wasnt that hard.

You seem to be under the umpression that god wrote a book, thats pretty silly. Actually, it's not silly. It's dangerous.



Some other scientific proof is the mention of this phase of embryo development http://www.bioscience.org/atlases/fert/htm/large3.htm

mention of the layers of the atmosphere, and likewise the crusts of the earth, the earth's shape being round, and evolution and development of life in the oceans. There are other things mentioned including the phases of earths development, cosmic gasses, and black holes in space. Of course all these proofs could be figured out by people as they were eventually figured out by people. Some things require certain equipment which was not available at the time. Some of the above is discussed in "Interested in Islam? Ask Questions here!". Thank you for the question though.

Please stop making stuff up.

Show the quotes that support your rediculous claim. That the koran provided scientific insight impossible to know at the time. The koran makes lots of vague claims that can be interpreted in retrospect in any way possible, unless it actually makes a specific prediction or claim that is testable and has been verified by science then you are full of it.

I could find other texts much more anceint than islam that can be interpreted as science.

Take your example on evolution in the other thread, if creationism had been proven right then you would be interpreting the text in that way. Thus, it is a rather meaningless statement to say it predicted evolution.

Democritus talked about atoms, and seeing atoms 'require certain equipment which was not available at the time', therefore Democritus was god incarnate.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Most of those "cons" are opinions.

Here are some of the "Scientific proofs" in the Qur'an, it gets into it after the first quote.

http://www.missionislam.com/science/book.htm

and also this

http://www.quran.org/science/

refer to the index bar on the right on the above page.

Both these links have direct quotes. Enjoy!

My concept of God seems to be considered by some to be completely alien, as I'm redefining God somehow, but my ideas can also be said to come from the Qur'an, I'll provide some examples from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran :

022.005

O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

022.006

This is so, because Allah is the Reality: it is He Who gives life to the dead, and it is He Who has power over all things.

022.007

And because the Hour will come, there is no doubt thereof; and because Allah will raise those who are in the graves.

022.008

Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah, without Knowledge, without Guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment,-

022.009

Turning away haughtily that he may lead (others) astray from the way of Allah; for him is disgrace in this world, and on the day of resurrection We will make him taste the punishment of burning:

022.010

(and it will be said to them):This is for that which thy two hands have sent before, and because Allah is no oppressor of His servants.

022.011

There are among men some who serve Allah, as it were, on the verge: if good befalls them, they are, therewith, well content; but if a trial comes to them, they turn on their faces: they lose both this world and the Hereafter: that is a manifest loss.

022.012

They call on such deities, besides Allah, as can neither hurt nor profit them: that is straying far indeed (from the Way)!

I'll quote some additional Reality quotes in "Interested in Islam? Ask Questions here!"

The quotes amount to nothing just as I predicted. (I make predictions ahead of time instead of in retrospect)

Just to higlight the point: People see that there are mountains, they say god created mountains, science figures out how mountains are created, you say "see the koran says mountains were created!"

Here is a random example since I am not going to debunk every single quote from that page.

quote:The Seas not Mingling with One Another



One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in a verse of the Qur'an as follows:

"He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through."

(The Qur'an, 55:19-20)

This property of the seas, that they come together yet do not mingle with one another at all, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension", the waters of neighboring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.(11)

The interesting side to this is that during a period when people had no knowledge of physics, surface tension, or oceanography; this was revealed in the Qur'an.

First off, this is a quote that can be interpreted in a zillion ways. You are now looking at this quote and interpreting to match your preconceived beliefs AFTER THE FACT. This is the exact opposite of science.

Secondly, the science itself has been misrepresented because water does in fact cross from sea to sea, it just does so at a relatively slow rate. This is simple diffusion...thus there is no "barrier" and the koran is wrong.

This was just one sample quote (chosen randomly), if you have a specific one that you think is solid then by all means present it, but I dont have to time to go through every single one listed on that page.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 05-18-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

The quotes amount to nothing just as I predicted. (I make predictions ahead of time instead of in retrospect)

Just to higlight the point: People see that there are mountains, they say god created mountains, science figures out how mountains are created, you say "see the koran says mountains were created!"

Here is a random example since I am not going to debunk every single quote from that page.

First off, this is a quote that can be interpreted in a zillion ways. You are now looking at this quote and interpreting to match your preconceived beliefs AFTER THE FACT. This is the exact opposite of science.

Secondly, the science itself has been misrepresented because water does in fact cross from sea to sea, it just does so at a relatively slow rate. This is simple diffusion...thus there is no "barrier" and the koran is wrong.

This was just one sample quote (chosen randomly), if you have a specific one that you think is solid then by all means present it, but I dont have to time to go through every single one listed on that page.



I don't see how you debunked that exactly or how it can be interpreted in a zillion ways? The seas converge, the barrier is surface tension.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/055.qmt.html here is the short chapter it is from, it also mentions pearls and corals and is clearly talking about the 2 major bodies of water.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Ok lets begin! Pro = P, Con = C. Feel free to add your own versions!

Athiesm:

P:No boundaries except that which one chooses for their own reasons by their own will. Athiesm is the belief that there is no God or higher power save those we imagine to rule our actions.

C:Never explains how something can come from nothing, as when there is nothing, there is always nothing, its impossible for nothing to do anything. Leaves many without a "reason" to live as it lacks reward or punishment in the afterlife, people simply die and are dead. One does thing for their living benefit and the benefit of others but never having anything after life to look forward to.





In response to cons "Never explains how something can come from nothing, as when there is nothing, there is always nothing, its impossible for nothing to do anything."

You made an unfounded assumption with something came from nothing, as there could have been a whole shitload of matter beforehand, it's just impossible to study, Read up on some cosmology and physics before making the cosmological argument.

Also, "god did it" is no better an answer than "I don't know"

There are plenty of reasons to live and behave morally even without the promise of heaven/threat of hellfire. Such as benefitting mankind or good old hedonism.

Impermanence of itself is not necessarily a bad thing.

"The seas converge." This is obvious, not a revelation. "There is a barrier." Scientifically, there is no there is no barrier. As I said, water diffuses between seas. So what is impressive about this quote from the koran?

How are pearls and corals significant? They were known to exists at the time were they not? The koran is merely pointing out the obvious. They also mention fruit, is that significant?

Shall I look for quotes from the koran that are complete and obvious contradictions with science? Would this not refute the idea that it is divine?

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

"The seas converge." This is obvious, not a revelation. "There is a barrier." Scientifically, there is no there is no barrier. As I said, water diffuses between seas. So what is impressive about this quote from the koran?

How are pearls and corals significant? They were known to exists at the time were they not? The koran is merely pointing out the obvious. They also mention fruit, is that significant?

Shall I look for quotes from the koran that are complete and obvious contradictions with science? Would this not refute the idea that it is divine?

I don't think it would. Yes the Qur'an states what is obvious. I'm saying the revelation can't be interpreted in a zillion ways. There is no wall, here is what the Qur'an says:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/055.qmt.html

the whole revelation is about obvious things but this one fact is significant because it was not obvious at the time:

055.019 - 25

He hath loosed the two seas. They meet.

There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other).

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

Out of them come Pearls and Coral:

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

His are the ships displayed upon the sea, like banners.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

(The reason I mention it is because it can't be interpreted in a zillion ways.)

If you find the time please debunk the other quotes from both those sites, or some of them, I haven't reviewed either site.

It won't be hard to find things in the Qur'an that science has no say about. My definition of God as I've defined in the other posts (which you can check out) is from the Qur'an. God is not some strange alien source of things but in the fashion that it is Reality itself, it takes credit for your breathing, a leaf falling, and everything else. It being the ultimate controlling factor "Reality". You die because of Reality, You live because of Reality, Everything around you is part of Reality, Everything you can do is allowed by Reality, etc. What is known and unknown to you, what is True is Reality.

022.006

This is so, because Allah is the Reality: it is He Who gives life to the dead, and it is He Who has power over all things.

(More quotes of this nature in the Islam and What is God posts.)

022.008

Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah, without Knowledge, without Guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment,-

Turning away in pride to beguile (men) from the way of Allah. For him in this world is ignominy, and on the Day of Resurrection We make him taste the doom of burning.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I don't think it would. Yes the Qur'an states what is obvious. I'm saying the revelation can't be interpreted in a zillion ways. There is no wall, here is what the Qur'an says: http://w ww.usc.edu /dept/MSA/ quran/055.qmt.html (http: //www.usc. edu/dept/M SA/quran/0 55.qmt.htm l)

the whole revelation is about obvious things but this one fact is significant because it was not obvious at the time:

055.019 - 25

He hath loosed the two seas. They meet.

There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other).

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

Out of them come Pearls and Coral:

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

His are the ships displayed upon the sea, like banners.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?



It was not obvious that two seas meet? It was not obvious that pearls and coral come from the sea? Those are extremely obvious and were so thousands of years before the Koran. The 'barrier' perhaps wasn't obvious because it DOESNT EXIST. Water diffuses between the two seas. There is nothing preventing this, nothing stopping this natural force.

The quote itself is ambiguous because it doesnt say if it's two seas in particular or any two seas in general, the "barrier" can be interpreted in many ways. Apparently you interpret surface tension as a barrier between two seas, but that is a real stretch because water diffuses between two seas all the time. I suspect the actual original meaning was a land barrier between two seas... hmmm are there any examples of this in the region?

Can you provide one example where the Koran showed a scientific prediction BEFORE THE FACT? In other words, don't look what science has discovered and then interpret the Koran. Start with the Koran and then test the hypothesis, that is how science works. And is that so hard? What you are doing is equivalent to how John Edwards speaks to the dead.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 05-18-2006).]

The barrier seems to be clearly making referance to the fact that the two seas though they meet create a kind of difference or barrier which scientists were able to observe because the pressures are different, it was not making reference to a land barrier pretty cleary, but, well how about some other stuff on those two sites? Did anything else catch your eye as easy to dispel?

Your wrong about the barrier because there is none anyway. Neither land bridge or otherwise. Like I said, water passes between two seas all the time. So either the quote is entirely wrong (the way you interpret it) or it referred to a land bridge separating two specific seas in the region (Medetarranian and Red Sea perhaps). Either way...not miraculous.

Ever single one will be easy to dispel if I am correct. You pick the one that holds the most merit withyou.

Also, I have given you clear and reasonable instructions on what you can do to change my mind. Why havent you dont the same? What would it take to change your mind? I suspect that nothing can change your mind. This is the indicative of FAITH (belief without evidence) and CLOSE-MINDEDNESS.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Your wrong about the barrier because there is none anyway. Neither land bridge or otherwise. Like I said, water passes between two seas all the time. So either the quote is entirely wrong (the way you interpret it) or it referred to a land bridge separating two specific seas in the region (Medetarranian and Red Sea perhaps). Either way...not miraculous.

Ever single one will be easy to dispel if I am correct. You pick the one that holds the most merit withyou.

Also, I have given you clear and reasonable instructions on what you can do to change my mind. Why havent you dont the same? What would it take to change your mind? I suspect that nothing can change your mind. This is the indicative of FAITH (belief without evidence) and CLOSE-MINDEDNESS.

hehe thank you! Maybe you could find which quote is not so easy to dispel if any? That way you will skim most of them and see which is easy or hard to dispel.

Like I said, they are all easy to dispel because nothing about the book is divine. I will happily dispel any one that you choose.

You pick the one you most strongly believe in or can most strongly support and I will dispel it. Is your request that I select another quote merely an attempt to waste my time? Quit the games and get serious if you actually are. YOU pick the quote that YOU believe to be significant and say WHY you believe it to be significant. Not a hard task...but maybe you are looking for an excuse to retreat.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Like I said, they are all easy to dispel because nothing about the book is divine. I will happily dispel any one that you choose.

You pick the one you most strongly believe in or can most strongly support and I will dispel it. Is your request that I select another quote merely an attempt to waste my time? Quit the games and get serious if you actually are. YOU pick the quote that YOU believe to be significant and say WHY you believe it to be significant. Not a hard task...but maybe you are looking for an excuse to retreat.

I thought if you dispelled one of the more challenging ones if any were challenging but still possible to dispel it might be nice. My intention isn't to waste your time though.

ok lets get you another water one from the Qur'an:

This is quoted from the website "Darkness in the Seas and Internal Waves



"Or (the unbelievers' state) are like the darkness of a fathomless sea which is covered by waves above which are waves above which are clouds, layers of darkness, one upon the other. If he puts out his hand, he can scarcely see it. Those God gives no light to, they have no light."

(The Qur'an, 24:40)

The general environment in deep seas is described in the book named Oceans:

The darkness in deep seas and oceans is found around a depth of 200 meters and below. At this depth, there is almost no light. Below a depth of 1000 meters there is no light at all.(12)

Today, we know about the general structure of the sea, the characteristics of the living things in it, its salinity, as well as the amount of water it contains, its surface area and depth. Submarines and special equipment, developed with modern technology, enable scientists to obtain this information.

Human beings are not able to dive more than 40 meters down without the aid of special equipment. They cannot survive unaided in the deep, dark parts of the oceans, such as at a depth of 200 meters. For these reasons, scientists have only recently been able to discover these detailed pieces of information about seas. However, the statement of "darkness in a deep sea" was used in Sura Nur 1,400 years ago. It is certainly one of the miracles of the Qur'an that such information was given at a time where no equipment to enable man to dive into the depths of the oceans was available.





Measurements made with today's technology have revealed that between 3 and 30 percent of the sunlight is reflected at the surface of the sea. Then, almost all of the seven colours of the light spectrum are absorbed, one after another, in the first 200 meters, except for blue light (picture at left). Below a depth of 1,000 meters, there is no light at all. (above picture). This scientific fact was pointed out in the verse 40 of Sura Nur in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago.



In addition, the statement in verse 40 of Sura Nur "…like the darkness of a fathomless sea which is covered by waves above which are waves above which are clouds…" draws our attention to another miracle of the Qur'an.



The picture to the left represents internal waves at interface between two layers of water of different densities. The lower layer is denser then the upper one. This scientific fact, declared in verse 40 of Sura Nur of the Qur'an 14 centuries ago, has been discovered by today's scientists only very recently.





Scientists have recently discovered that there are internal waves, which "occur on density interfaces between layers of different densities." These internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because deep water has a higher density than the water above it. Internal waves act like surface waves. They can break, just like surface waves. Internal waves cannot be seen by the human eye, but they can be detected by studying temperature or salinity changes at a given location.(13)

The statements in the Qur'an run absolutely parallel to the above explanation. Without research, one can only see the waves on the surface of the sea. It is impossible for one to know about the internal waves beneath the sea. Yet, in Sura Nur, God draws our attention to another type of wave that occurs in the depths of the oceans. Certainly, this fact, which scientists has discovered very recently, shows once again that the Qur'an is the word of God."

Also:

The Layers of the Atmosphere



One fact about the universe revealed in the verses of the Qur'an is that the sky is made up of seven layers.

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."

(The Qur'an, 2:29)

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."

(The Qur'an, 41:12)

The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers.

The Earth has all the attributes that are needed for life. One of them is the atmosphere, which serves as a shield protecting living things. Today, it is an established fact that the atmosphere is made up of different layers lying on top of one another. Just as it is described in the Qur'an, the atmosphere is made up of exactly seven layers. This is certainly one of the miracles of the Qur'an.



Indeed, today it is known that the world's atmosphere consists of different layers that lie on top of each other. Furthermore, it consists, just as is described in the Qur'an, of exactly seven layers. In a scientific source, the subject is described as follows:



14 centuries ago, when the sky was believed to be one unified body, the Qur'an miraculously stated that it consisted of layers, and what is more, "seven" layers. Modern science, on the other hand, discovered the fact that the atmosphere surrounding the Earth is made up of "seven" basic layers only very recently.



Scientists have found that the atmosphere consists of several layers. The layers differ in such physical properties as pressure and the types of gasses. The layer of the atmosphere closest to Earth is called the TROPOSPHERE. It contains about 90% of the total mass of the atmosphere. The layer above the troposphere is called the STRATOSPHERE. The OZONE LAYER is the part of the stratosphere where absorption of ultraviolet rays occurs. The layer above the stratosphere is called the MESOSPHERE. The THERMOSPHERE lies above the mesosphere. The ionized gases form a layer within the thermosphere called the IONOSPHERE. The outermost part of Earth's atmosphere extends from about 480 km out to 960 km. This part is called the EXOSPHERE. (2)

If we count the number of layers cited in this source, we see that the atmosphere consists of exactly seven layers, just as stated in the verse.

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Ozonosphere

4. Mesosphere

5. Thermosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Exosphere

Another important miracle on this subject is mentioned in the statement "(He) revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate.", in verse 12 of Sura Fussilet. In other words, in the verse, God states that He assigned each heaven its own duty. Truly, as seen in previous chapters, each one of these layers has vital duties for the benefit of human kind and all other living things on the Earth. Each layer has a particular function, ranging from forming rain to preventing harmful rays, from reflecting radio waves, to averting the harmful effects of meteors.

One of these functions, for example, is stated in a scientific source as follows:

Earth's atmosphere has 7 layers. The lowest layer is called troposphere. Rain, snow and wind only take place in the troposphere.(3)

It is a great miracle that these facts, which could not possibly be discovered without the technology of the 20th century, were explicitly stated by the Qur'an 1,400 years ago.

This topic is entitled "The TRUE Religion. Which is Right?" It is primarilly designed to discuss which religion if any you believe is true and why, and also for people who disbelieve in all religions and why. Feel free to interrupt any discussion or debate going on here with your own questions or comments.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

"Or (the unbelievers' state) are like the darkness of a fathomless sea which is covered by waves above which are waves above which are clouds, layers of darkness, one upon the other. If he puts out his hand, he can scarcely see it. Those God gives no light to, they have no light."

(The Qur'an, 24:40)



Anyone who drops a rock into deep water knows that it gets very dark down there. Anyone who dives into deep water knows it gets darker the deeper you go and knows they cannot see the bottom. This would be common knowledge at the time. Nothing significant about saying that the depths of the oceans are dark.

As far as waves above waves, this is just another example of an amibguous statement being interpeted to fit preconceived notions. Again nothing special.

There is a reason why Muslims have to make up stories about the koran being scientific, it's because when they look at the world they see that the infidels have the most power, science, and technology. So they are trying to act like this stuff was already revealed in the Koran, but it wasnt. That's why they have to interpret everything after the fact. If the Koran was truly scientific they we be proving it. It's not hard, just find a prediction and then test it. But thats not happening, just like how John Edwards wont allow himself to stand up to scientific rigor.

Science puts itself in a position of being disproven. A point where if the results don't match expectations, then something is wrong with the theory. That is the whole point of science. The Koran and all other faiths are never put in such a position by their respective believers. They are not scientific, indeed they are the exact opposite.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 05-19-2006).]

Has the "Muslim World" Always been in the dark, scientifically? http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Muslims refer to disbelievers as Kafir, meaning disbeliever.

How about the layers of the atmosphere one from the site?

It's on the first page at the bottom.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."

(The Qur'an, 2:29)

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."

(The Qur'an, 41:12)



1) Ambiguous quote being interpreted after the fact to match preconceived beliefs.

2) They are also manipulating the science becuase there are not 7 distinct layers of the atmosphere. The ozone layer is WITHIN the the stratosphere and the ionosphere is part of the thermosphere (not a separate layer).

Thus not only is it a stretch to say the quote is making a scientific claim but the claim itself is wrong too. Obviously not divine.

What if anything would validate in your mind a text as divine in its origin?

Also, could the atmosphere be defined in 7 shifts which could be called layers? Scientists have their own number which they've defined for their own reasons. A revelation in the Qur'an making reference to the layers also mentions the crusts of the earth in layers, any comment on that?

037.012

You do marvel while they mock.

037.013

And, when they are reminded, they pay no heed,-

037.014

And, when they see a Sign, turn it to mockery,

Ok how about these, quoted from: http://www.quran.org/science/origin.htm

"BLACK HOLES

The Koran is aware of the phenomenon of "black holes", stars that have collapsed under their intense gravitational field, so that even light cannot escape. The Koran stated over 1200 years before the concept was stated by John Michell in 1767, and 1400 years before John Archibald Wheeler coined the term "black hole" in 1968:

I swear by the sky and (the phenomena of) Tariq.

And what will explain to you what Tariq is?

It is a star that pierces (or makes a hole). (Koran 86:1-3)

The Koran uses the word Thaqib in Arabic, a word that literally signifies a puncture or a minute hole

Martin Rees, states in Our Cosmic Habitat (2001)

"Space is already being punctured by the formation of black holes..."

(Rees, page 120)

THE COLLAPSING UNIVERSE

If the density of matter in the Universe is sufficiently large, gravitational forces will eventually cause the Universe to stop expanding, and then to start falling back in upon itself. If that happens, the Universe will end in a second cataclysmic event that cosmologists call The Big Crunch

The Koran describes the Big Crunch and what the physicist Heinz Pagels described as the "Cosmic Code" in this statement about the script of the universe:

"The day when We shall roll back the heavens, like a scribe rolls up a written document.

As We began the first creation, We shall surely repeat it. It is a promise (binding) upon us.

Indeed it will happen." (Koran 21:104)

THE SUN AND THE MOON

"He created the skies and the earth for truth.

He coils the night upon the day and He coils the day upon the night"(Koran 39:5)

At a time when a geocentric cosmology was in vogue, the Koran not only corrected the erroneous notions associated with that world-view, but made clear that night and day were caused by a coiling motion. The Koran uses the arabic verb Kawarra which in its original usage signifies the "coiling" of a turban around the head. A perfect analogy to the movement that causes night and day, i.e. the earth's rotation.

"He it is who has created the night and day, and the sun and the moon.

They all, in their orbit, swim (yasbahoon)" (Koran 39:5)





To make this notion of a rotating earth causing night and day even clearer, the Koran mentions that the night "merges" into the day and day "merges" into night (Koran 3:27) and that the night and day "interchange" into each other (Koran 24:44). The above statement stated that this change is brought about by orbital motion similar to (in principle) but distinct from the orbital motion of the sun and the moon. "They all" says the Koran, "all" signifies night and day, the sun and the moon. The word translated "swim" above is the Arabic Yasbahoon. It signifies movement with one's own motion. If you refer to a man doing this on the ground, it means he is walking and not rolled by someone else.

"And the sun constantly journeys towards a homing place for it

And for the moon We have determined phases...

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon,

neither can the night outstrip the day.

And they all swim (yasbahoon) in their own orbits (Koran 36:38-40)"

The Koran mentions the movement of the sun. The sun's movement is not something that is evident to our eyes or experience but requires specialized equipment. Modern science has found out that the sun rotates around its axis every 26 days and is continually on a journey in space towards its "homing place", the central nucleus of our galaxy, just like mentioned in the Koran (36:39), in its orbit of around 226 million miles (accurate to within 6 percent), according to Mark Reid, a Harvard-Smithsonian astronomer. Also, the Koran is known to be the first book to use the modern term "phase" (Manazil in Arabic) associated with the moon's appearances.

By stating that the sun is not permitted to "overtake" the moon, the Koran is making clear for astronomers, in their own terminology, that the sun and the moon are not revolving around the same object. It also makes clear that the movement that causes night and day has nothing to do with the movement of the sun and the moon. In the first part of the statement, the sun is mentioned as the one that cannot "overtake" the moon. In the second part it is the night that cannot "outstrip" the day. This is completely contrary to popular earth-centered (geocentric) systems, in which day and night were associated with the sun's movement (popular at the time of Muhammed).

ATOMISM

"(God is)The Knower of the unapparent.

Not an atom's weight in the skies or the earth, nor anything smaller than that,

or larger, escapes him, but is in a clear record." (Koran 34:3)

Many centuries before Muhammed was born, there was a well known theory of ATOMISM, advanced by the Greeks, Democritus in particular, who lived in the 4th century BC. Democritus and the people who came after him assumed that the material world is made up of tiny indivisible particles called atoms, the smallest pieces of matter,each having the same mass, the smallest unit mass possible. The Arabs used to deal in the same concept. The word in Arabic, ZARRA, most commonly meant that.

The Koran breaking with that tradition clearly states that there are things "smaller" than an atom (see Koran 34:3 above).

It was not until 1897 that the concept of the 'indivisible atom' was challenged when the English physicist J.J Thomson, working at the Cavendish Laboratory in Cambridge found ways to study bits that had been broken off atoms (Gribbin, John 1998. The Search for Superstrings, Symmetry, and the Theory of Everything)

How could Muhammed have known that particles existed smaller than what was believed to be the smallest indivisible unit known?

MICROSCOPIC EMBRYOLOGY

Then We placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging. Then fashioned the seed into a leech.. (Koran 23:13-14)



The Koran is known to be the first book to give microscopic details of human embryology, hundreds of years before the discovery of the microscope! The Koran contains information on embryology which was not discovered till about 30 years back and certain details were new even to modern scientists but were immediately confirmed as being accurate.

The Koran mentions that at a certain stage, the developing human is like "allaqa" (Koran 23:13-14), a leech-like clot.

Fig:Leech (allaqa) on top,human embryo (24 days) at the bottom

If you take a microscopic picture of a human embryo of days 7-24 and place it next to a picture of a leech, they both look identical. Not only do they look the same but they function in the same way too. Just like a leech derives nourishment from its host's blood, the embryo derives nourishment from the decidua or the pregnant endometrium.

Keith L. Moore, a world authority on embryology, states in his book, The Developing Human (1998):

"Reference (in the Koran) is also made to the leech-like appearance of the early embryo. (The four week embryo shown, looks like a leech or blood sucker.)" (Moore, page 8)

Keith Moore has authored standard textbooks on embryology. Books that are termed "required readings" by prestigious medical institutions all around the world.

THE WATERY ORIGIN OF LIFE



The Koran mentions that all life "originated" from water (Koran 21:30)and that man himself is "created" of water and so are all the animals on earth (Koran 25:54, and 24:45).

These statements to an Arab would have sounded atrocious in that day and age. Even today such statements in the Koran might cause you to wonder. The fact that all life originated in water is well established by the scientific community, today. We have evidence to support the fact that the first living beings were cyanobacteria also called bluegreen algae, and they existed in water. The fact that human beings and animals are created of water is also well established since cytoplasm the basic component of "life" in any animal cell is over 80% water.

The Koran states that there are two large bodies of flowing water (Bahr-ain in Arabic) that meet but do not intermingle because of a "barrier" between them, a barrier that doesn't prevent meeting but prevents intermingling (Koran 55:19-20)

It is a necessity that seas intermingle through straits between them. The Koran however is aware of a very unusual phenomenon, which scientists discovered only recently. The Mediterranean and Atlantic ocean differ in their chemical and biological constitution. The French scientist Jacques Yves Cousteau conducted various undersea investigations at the Strait of Gibraltar and explaining these phenomena concluded:

"Unexpected fresh water springs issue from the southern and northern coasts of Gibraltar. These mammoth springs gush towards each other at angles of 45 degrees forming a reciprocal dam. Due to this fact the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Ocean cannot intermingle (as quoted by Nurbaki)."

Did Muhammed do research on the chemical and biological components of seawater to discover this unusual phenomena?

(I requoted it because of the scientist saying "These mammoth springs gush towards each other at angles of 45 degrees forming a reciprocal dam. Due to this fact the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Ocean cannot intermingle")

http://www.quran.org/science/ant1.htm (This is a small book someone wrote about The Ant thing in the Qur'an, at the bottom is a bar which takes you to other chapters)

Expansion of Universe



The expansion of the Universe is the most imposing discovery of modern science. Today it is a firmly established concept and the only debate centers around the way this is taking place. It was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is backed up by physics in the examination of the galactic spectrum;

the regular movement towards the red section of their spectrum may be explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another.

Thus the size of the Universe is probably constantly increasing and this increase will become bigger the further away the galaxies are from us. The speeds at which these celestial bodies are moving may, in the course of this perpetual expansion, go from fractions of the speed of light to speeds faster than this.



The following verse of the Qur'an (sura 51, verse 47) where God is speaking, "The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily. We are expanding it."

'Heaven' is the translation of the word sama' and this is exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant.

'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present participle musi'una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider, more spacious, to extend, to expand'.

(also)

http://www.quran.org/science/QURANASTRONOMY.htm

(and you might like to see what this guy says "The New Scientific Case For God")

http://www.quran.org/science/case.htm

"



Alrighty there are some things to debunk and a few links to check out! Enjoy!



[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 05-19-2006).]

if it actualy explained all the holes in its theorys and predicted stuff with some degree oif acuarcy

Also about the my question "Has the Muslim World always been in the dark scientifically?" According to the following Muslims after the Qur'an boomed in scientific knowledge and understanding as well as the persuit of knowledge.

as quoted from:

http://www.quran.org/science/Islam%20and%20Knowledge.htm

" Some Muslim Achievements in Science



Muslim mathematicians devised and developed algebra



Al-Khawarazmi used Arabic numerals which came to the west through his work-9th century.



Al-Razi described amd treated smallbpox-10th century



Ibn Sina diagnosed and treated meningities-11th century



Ibn al-Haytham discovered the camera obscure- 11th century



Al-Birini described the Ganges Valley as a sedimentary basin-11th century



Muslims built the first observatory as a scientific institution-13th century



Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi explained the cause of the rainbow- 13th century



Ibn al-Nafis described the minor circulation of the blood- 14th century.



Al-Kashani invented a computer machine- 15th century"

quote:Originally posted by bazthefish:

if it actualy explained all the holes in its theorys and predicted stuff with some degree oif acuarcy

What do you mean? Could you elaborate?

HEY BUDDY YOU FORGOT MORMONS AND JEWS!!!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

What if anything would validate in your mind a text as divine in its origin?

I already told you 3 times. Read the koran, make a prediction based solely on koran scripture, test it. If it comes out true you got something.

quote:Also, could the atmosphere be defined in 7 shifts which could be called layers? Scientists have their own number which they've defined for their own reasons.

These leads to another point. If the situation were different and the koran said 5 layers of heaven instead of 7 you would still claim that its correct and thus divine. No matter what number it gives you can find some way to rationalize it being correct. This is the John Edwards approach, it's how he talks to the dead.

quote:A revelation in the Qur'an making reference to the layers also mentions the crusts of the earth in layers, any comment on that?

I don't have time to go through every single one. That's why I asked you to pick the ones you liked the most.

I will indulge you with more, but you need to do more then copy and paste from another website. You need to actually do some research on your own. I want from you the quoted scripture, the scientific fact that it revealed, and in your own words why you think this is significant. The key point being "in your own words" rather than a copy paste job. Try expending just a little mental energy.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 05-19-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

I don't have time to go through every single one. That's why I asked you to pick the ones you liked the most.

I will indulge you with more, but you need to do more then copy and paste from another website. You need to actually do some research on your own. I want from you the quoted scripture, the scientific fact that it revealed, and in your own words why you think this is significant. The key point being "in your own words" rather than a copy paste job. Try expending just a little mental energy.



Alright, but my favorite in the above post is the expanding universe and the collapsing universe. I copy pasted my favorites from the other website which I'm not sure you checked out yet. I'm sure all of these are easy to deal with though, also the only "prediction" the Qur'an ever made is about the war between the Rome and Persia, according to some websites like that it came true in the fashion of the prediction but once again this is not something in our future so you might think it an irrelevant point all together. In the same fashion that you believe I will never give up my faith, I too am under the impression that nothing within the Qur'an will convince you of any divine source.

Would you consider your belief system faith based? When I said faith, the thought occured to me that nobody is sure absolutely what happens to a person after death, nobody can really debunk even the most absurd or insane claims about the future (aliens will come and blow the planet up lol). Who can say with all the surety in the world "There is No God." (Especially by my definition which I extract from the Qur'an, you can read about it in the Islam post of mine). It seems to me athiesm is also faith based in a way.

faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)

n.

Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

So what in your opinion is the truth? How are you sure it's the truth? How are you sure that The Qur'an is not divinely inspired, that there will be no judgement or ressurection, and that Reality is not God?

Most people, believing in God or disbelieving, have faith, a confident belief in what they think is true. Without knowing for sure they openly dispute about God and clearly state that he does not exist.

The only reason I think I know about God is I believe in a book which claims itself, in self reference, to be from God, a message to mankind. It says they will ask for proof and to tell them to read the book, it is the proof. Of course, that won't satisfy many. As compared to the Bible the Qur'an is written in a different and direct style and doesn't have contradictions (one guy tried to send me some which weren't contradictions and were easily debunked) as compared to the Bible which has 101 and maybe more contradictions in the Old and New Testament together.

For people looking for a clear, straightforward religion to put faith into, Islam seems like a good bet. For those religiously inclined, it tends to make sense and be "logical".

For those who disbelieve in all forms and concepts and possibilities of God, and those who do it with a kind of faith, they really have no surety in what happens after they die, no one can ever know.

The Muslims, Christians, and a small portion of the Jews are all awaiting Judgement Day. When all will be ressurected. This was written about in Ancient Hebrew scriptures too and was accepted by most prior to the time Hellenistic thought was incorporated into Judaism and it slowly shifted away from the concept of ressurection and judgement.

The believers and non believers have no knowledge of this event and can only wait, and die. When we die either we stay dead, or we wake up, those are the two options. No one can be sure absolutely which one will occur.

In my belief, no one will ever see God, because God is already manifest and visible but people can not understand that Reality is God, that we are as much part of God as a tree or a single atom.

The Qur'an says that upon ressurection and judgement day it will be said to those who disbelieved something like "This is what you disbelieved" When they will see everything happening, and that they will ask to go back so that they can do right this time, but that it will be too late, their lives spent in rebellion, and even if they were given a second chance, they would disbelieve again. So their home will be the hellfire. For those who had "faith" in the revelation and did good, they will be rewarded in a paradise setting.

The best we can hope for is that when we die, we remain dead and cease to exist forever. If the book is speaking the truth, something we can not know for sure or with "proof" since it is in the future, what we can do as a safety precaution is be good, do right, and follow what seems straight and positive for ourselves and others. To me, the straight path is detailed in the Qur'an, I have faith in it and what will come to pass, to me, saying there is no God is like saying nothing exists, not even me or this computer screen since in my mind absolutely everything is connected and God is Reality itself (The Qur'an says so too.) This is why I can not reject God. I see its control as everywhere because Reality is everywhere, in control of every single atom, the wind, the orbits, the system, you can call it Nature, or Existence, or Whatever you want, it is one thing. Taoists call it the Tao, Jedis call it the Force, lol, I call it God or Reality, other people call it The Source, Others the Originator, others call it point A, Others call it The Alpha and Omega (Beginning and End), Some refer to it as The Energy. It is the ultimate power, what controls us no matter what we say or think (because Reality is what we are saying and thinking within and provides us with the options to do that.) It is the only thing worthy to submit to. People say they would bow down to some huge thing coming from the sky and believe it was God, rather that the GREATER thing, what the flying thing exists WITHIN.

In any case, I'm not sure about you specifically but I have faith in The Book and the events that are said to come to pass, moreover I can never deny Reality, I am unable. People who say with all the sureness in the world that there is no God, and have faith in what they percieve as true, are only holding on to a conjecture, the same as one who states an "inspired" scripture.

The Qur'an seems to have little or no conflict with science, encourages people to learn, study the world, science, and history. After the Qur'an came, with this encouragement, the "Muslim World" boomed in scientific knowledge, the Western World owes much of the knowledge it gained from the writings and collections of the Muslim World. The Muslim World also provided the west with the ancient Greek writings which it translated and inscribed.

To me, Islam is the most sensible religion available, it includes the general message of Judaism and Christianity, Explains God in a more logical way (in my opinion) something that can't be denied, Reality, and outlines and prescribes a good, positive lifestyle and existence that is relatively easy. It gives one some degree of confidence that they are "right" and that they should not have doubt, and that definately there will be a day of Justice, and that these concepts we know today such as good and bad, right and wrong, come from God originally but were over time added to, changed, manipulated. If we die and we aren't raised up, I will have hopefully lived a positive and productive life, doing good for myself and others, hopefully you will have done the same for your own reasons. If we are ressurected then we will see what happens. Neither of us can prove or disprove it, it is supposed to happen in the future, it hasn't happened yet, all we can do is wait.

Any other comments or questions?

Also feel free to comment on the above post about "waiting".

Any other questions?

hahahahahahaha!

So what are your personal beliefs? What is your "religion"?

Anybody?

Islam pwns all.

quote:Originally posted by T_R_U_T_H:

Islam pwns all.

lol I gotta get you on my MSN, AIM, or YAHOO Messenger lists man!

Any comments or questions?

Abrahim... I'm sorry to say but... it's easy to talk good about your own religion and to use all sorts of scientific evidence. But christians, jews, hindus... they all have just as convincing evidence to prove their religions. Haha! People like you make me laugh. I don't, you mean it well, but it's funny to see you dedicate all your time in explaining and defending your religion. Sorry Abrahim, your Islam is just like Christianity, Judaism and all the rest. It's a 'May Be'... it's about BELIEVING, not PROVING. No matter how many hours, days or years you spend defending your religion with scientific evidence or explanation, you will achieve nothing.

As I said, I don't mean to provoke you, and I wish you all the best with your religion, may it give you strength and hapiness.

But at the end of the story... your belief is just as strong as the belief of the Hindu, the Jew and the Christian.

What I mean is: your view is relative (and often subjective).

Just like everybody else's view.

Including mine.

I know.

most of your opinions are very biased in that you compare all of them to Islamic shit

also, in your debate with Real.PUA, Abrahim, let me just tell you know that you are being very reptitive. all of your quotes are vague as shit where you use old knoweth, hoeth, thou, and niggersth garbage to bend the language.

quote:Originally posted by kramer3d:

most of your opinions are very biased in that you compare all of them to Islamic shit

also, in your debate with Real.PUA, Abrahim, let me just tell you know that you are being very reptitive. all of your quotes are vague as shit where you use old knoweth, hoeth, thou, and niggersth garbage to bend the language.

Thou hast hurteth mine bossom!

This forum wasn't actually designed for a debate with REALPUA, in fact it was for people to bring their religions and to say why their religion is the TRUE Religion, it was going to be all about that, Gods doing battle in the mighty arena.

Of course Every opinion in the article is BIASED in its "Pros" and "Cons" its written in the fashion of a person who is coming into the arena with preconcieved questions and biases, also I added the option for people to make their own versions of my article and what they think are pros and cons.

At the end of my article I mentioned that out of the list, the Qur'an and Islam is one I prefered. In other topics I've defended Christianity, Explained Hinduism and Bhuddism, and online I've even assisted people in returning to Judaism. This article was deliberately biased and for people to bring their Gods and Religion to do battle with the one I had chosen. For people to make the claim of what the TRUE Religion is. The Qur'an does have science in it, despite how people might simply dispell it by saying "dats vag", it does talk about a microscopic phase of Embryo development, the layers of the atmosphere, the expansion of the universe and its eventual collapse and re expansion. The Qur'an really isn't that vague, in fact its very clear for those who want to see.

The Old Testament Bible even has scientific proofs that are different than those mentioned in the Qur'an, I did not choose the side of Christianity in this arena.

This wasn't so much about disproving religions as a whole but for others with believes to prop up their beliefs and differences and let the people decide which is better. I am glad RealPUA used this place to debate though.

"What is God?" My other topic, is on a similar subject, things were disputed there rather than proposed, as it was constructed for others to propose what their God is, be it money, Jesus, or France.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:



Wicca:

P:Essentially at the top of it all the belief is that there is an ultimate "Source" to all things, "The Light" or "God", but that from that source come a multitude of Gods and spirits which compose of the spiritual universe we live within. One should harness these forces to their advantage and understand them. Magick and spells may sound silly to some but can be very convincing to those who perform and believe in them, thus resulting in positive effect and thinking in some cases.

C:Wiccanism lacks any clearly defined or authoritative laws and beliefs, but mainly assists people in getting in touch with their spiritual self and using Magick to their advantage. There is no real right or wrong, no good or evil really, all is part of the Source. There is Dark and Light magic, Night and Day magic, and much more. Its a very free and new age form of Paganism which many different beliefs and no set of rules.



you should have asked e about wicca before you wrote this. no offence but its a bit inaccutate.

read my thread and ask anything you like

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Thou hast hurteth mine bossom!

This forum wasn't actually designed for a debate with REALPUA, in fact it was for people to bring their religions and to say why their religion is the TRUE Religion, it was going to be all about that, Gods doing battle in the mighty arena.

Of course Every opinion in the article is BIASED in its "Pros" and "Cons" its written in the fashion of a person who is coming into the arena with preconcieved questions and biases, also I added the option for people to make their own versions of my article and what they think are pros and cons.

At the end of my article I mentioned that out of the list, the Qur'an and Islam is one I prefered. In other topics I've defended Christianity, Explained Hinduism and Bhuddism, and online I've even assisted people in returning to Judaism. This article was deliberately biased and for people to bring their Gods and Religion to do battle with the one I had chosen. For people to make the claim of what the TRUE Religion is. The Qur'an does have science in it, despite how people might simply dispell it by saying "dats vag", it does talk about a microscopic phase of Embryo development, the layers of the atmosphere, the expansion of the universe and its eventual collapse and re expansion. The Qur'an really isn't that vague, in fact its very clear for those who want to see.

The Old Testament Bible even has scientific proofs that are different than those mentioned in the Qur'an, I did not choose the side of Christianity in this arena.

This wasn't so much about disproving religions as a whole but for others with believes to prop up their beliefs and differences and let the people decide which is better. I am glad RealPUA used this place to debate though.

"What is God?" My other topic, is on a similar subject, things were disputed there rather than proposed, as it was constructed for others to propose what their God is, be it money, Jesus, or France.

holy shit dude how many times do we have to tell you? the scientific shit in the quran is not clear... it's poorly worded crap. the only thing clear about the quran is "don't jerk off" & "allah is teh 1337 h4x0r"

quote:Originally posted by kramer3d:

holy shit dude how many times do we have to tell you? the scientific shit in the quran is not clear... it's poorly worded crap. the only thing clear about the quran is "don't jerk off" & "allah is teh 1337 h4x0r"

lol when did it say don't masturbate! First you take away my science! Now you take away my freetime fun time!?

everything in the op is an illustration of ignorance.

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

everything in the op is an illustration of ignorance.

Could you elaborate?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

lol when did it say don't masturbate! First you take away my science! Now you take away my freetime fun time!?

so you are saying the quran allows masturbation?

mine is! *blows self up*

quote:Originally posted by Satans Handicaped Helper:

mine is! *blows self up*

Qur'an doesnt seem to say anything against masturbation, but is against sex before marriage.

Any other questions or comments? What in your opinion is "THE TRUE RELIGION" and why?

quote:Originally posted by Mellow_Fellow:

You need to do some more research on satanism and some other beliefs.

Also, none are "the truth", but people can still live by them.

And atheism/agnosticism aren't religions.



Atheism can be if you blindly believe god doesn't exist. However if you believe god doesn't exist due to facts or observation, then it isn't a religion.

Those were the worst interpretations of LaVeyan/Spiritual Satanism I have ever laid eyes on.

Obviously spiritual Satanists who accept the existence of only Satan do not deny the existence of a god, but redefine god as Luciferian...whoever wrote this is so immersed in dualism that they cannot percieve religious thought without two opposing characters. They percieve Satan as an adversary to which there must always be an opposite counterpart.

Sheesh.

quote:Originally posted by xarf:



Atheism can be if you blindly believe god doesn't exist. However if you believe god doesn't exist due to facts or observation, then it isn't a religion.

Exactly; which is precisely why I don't believe in religion at all. None of them match up with all observable phenomena. Plus, they all allege to have knowledge of an unseeable, unprovable god/gods. Bottom line: If something's untestable, then it isn't real.

Clue: "beLIEve" (In order to believe in something, you have to swallow [at least one] lie.)

quote:Originally posted by varactor_blue:

Exactly; which is precisely why I don't believe in religion at all. None of them match up with all observable phenomena. Plus, they all allege to have knowledge of an unseeable, unprovable god/gods. Bottom line: If something's untestable, then it isn't real.

Clue: "beLIEve" (In order to believe in something, you have to swallow [at least one] lie.)

There is only one thing worthy of being considered a Diety, and you see it every day, are part of it, work with it, are completely limited by its options. It is the most powerful thing, completely observable, completely in control, greater than the universe itself but containing it.

Any other comments?!

by accurate predictions i meant like if a mesiah actulay does come or if someone actualy get judged and got an afterlife

it just seems o be taking awile to get to judgement day

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

There is only one thing worthy of being considered a Diety, and you see it every day, are part of it, work with it, are completely limited by its options. It is the most powerful thing, completely observable, completely in control, greater than the universe itself but containing it.



Yay, how vague. Care to explain that again, in clear detail? Or are you saying that our universe is itself a deity? Either way, these statements can't be empirically tested, thus they must be false.

I had a conversation with Abrahim on msn, his belief is basically that the universe is god, and we all make up part of god. He thinks all religions are right, and I'm not exactly sure what his view of an afterlife is.

[This message has been edited by Adrenochrome (edited 06-01-2006).]

Reality is false?

quote:Originally posted by xarf:



Atheism can be if you blindly believe god doesn't exist. However if you believe god doesn't exist due to facts or observation, then it isn't a religion.

How could one blindly believe god doesnt exist, when in fact here is zero evidence for the existence of god? You cannot be blind to something nonexistant.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Reality is false?

By definition, no (unless we are in some kind of illusion, but then we can redifine reality to be that illusion). But what do YOU know about reality? I suspect not much at the fundamental level... You should start studying quantum mechanics, if you really wanted to learn about reality and your definition of god. Or you can continue to read the books you think are written by a living god...you wont learn that much about reality though.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

By definition, no (unless we are in some kind of illusion, but then we can redifine reality to be that illusion). But what do YOU know about reality? I suspect not much at the fundamental level... You should start studying quantum mechanics, if you really wanted to learn about reality and your definition of god. Or you can continue to read the books you think are written by a living god...you wont learn that much about reality though.

Book, no Book, The most powerful controlling factor in your life is the whole of Reality which you exist within, Ultimate Reality is the only God.

God

n 1: the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions [syn: God, Supreme Being]

2: any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force [syn: deity, divinity, immortal]

3: a man of such superior qualities that he seems like a deity to other people; "he was a god among men"

4: a material effigy that is worshipped as a god; "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"; "money was his god" [syn: idol, graven image]

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

God

n 1: the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions [syn: God, Supreme Being]

2: any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force [syn: deity, divinity, immortal]

3: a man of such superior qualities that he seems like a deity to other people; "he was a god among men"

4: a material effigy that is worshipped as a god; "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"; "money was his god" [syn: idol, graven image]

Check out "What is God" for extra elaborations if you're interested at all. I'm the 3rd definition!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Book, no Book, The most powerful controlling factor in your life is the whole of Reality which you exist within, Ultimate Reality is the only God.



Then learn about it from science books instead of religious texts. If you want to learn the nature of the universe, quantum mechanics (or more generally, physics) is the way to go.

PS pointing out the obvious does not make you profound.



[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 06-02-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Then learn about it from science books instead of religious texts. If you want to learn the nature of the universe, quantum mechanics (or more generally, physics) is the way to go.

PS pointing out the obvious does not make you profound.



For science and details on scientific matters, go to books that specify and deal with that, that's right. For "spiritual" guidance, and answers to questions such as an "Afterlife" seek out a religion that suits you.

This topic is entitled "The TRUE Religion. Which is Right?" It is primarilly designed to discuss which religion if any you believe is true and why, and also for people who disbelieve in all religions and why. Feel free to interrupt any discussion or debate going on here with your own questions or comments.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

For science and details on scientific matters, go to books that specify and deal with that, that's right. For "spiritual" guidance, and answers to questions such as an "Afterlife" seek out a religion that suits you.

If we are talking about the nature of reality, your definition of god, then science is the closest to the truth we have. If you don't know quantum mechanics then you don't know mankind's best theory on the nature of reality. You mention how reality has the most influence on our lives, well I ask you why don't you want to study this reality? Why don't you want to study your god?

As for spiritual questions, for the ones that havent already, these will eventually be answered by science. For example, meditation (a type of spiritual experience) is being studied by neuroscientists. And there are some interesting findings already. It's reasonable to predict that once a mature "science of the mind" is developed that many things which are now characteristic of the spiritual realm will be explained by natural means.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 06-02-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

If we are talking about the nature of reality, your definition of god, then science is the closest to the truth we have. If you don't know quantum mechanics then you don't know mankind's best theory on the nature of reality. You mention how reality has the most influence on our lives, well I ask you why don't you want to study this reality? Why don't you want to study your god?

As for spiritual questions, for the ones that havent already, these will eventually be answered by science. For example, meditation (a type of spiritual experience) is being studied by neuroscientists. And there are some interesting findings already. It's reasonable to predict that once a mature "science of the mind" is developed that many things which are now characteristic of the spiritual realm will be explained by natural means.



I look forward to all of that!

Me too, but it will take more than that to elimate faith.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 06-02-2006).]

Quantum mechanics is here and now. Get started.

So how, then, do we eliminate the foolishness of faith and replace it with the objectivity of reason & science?

quote:Originally posted by varactor_blue:

So how, then, do we eliminate the foolishness of faith and replace it with the objectivity of reason & science?

Use common sense and your faculties to the best of your abilities. Do what has more benefit and less or no harm. Do not do what has more harm and less benefit. Use science to find what has more harm or benefit for you. Use science to understand the mechanics of this universe and the physics of this Reality. Gain knowledge without harming yourself.

What is Right and what is Good is what benefits you without negative effect or consequence. A person on the "straight path" is one who thinks, applies their logic and senses, who judges and assesses situations wisely, using their common sense and intelligence.

The only "God" you'll ever have is this Reality in which you exist, in which all things exist. Many suggest being humble, becoming one with reality and coming to peace with it through meditation, prayer. Prayer/Worship should be a form of meditation in which an indivual meditates or humbles themselves before Reality and "feels it come over them" the benefits can be a better more peaceful restrained attitude, and another way to pray is in a kind of mental self affirmation, if you believe in the prayer you're likely to make it come true.

Use what tools you can to effectively improve your life and its quality.

quote:Originally posted by varactor_blue:

So how, then, do we eliminate the foolishness of faith and replace it with the objectivity of reason & science?

It has to be a cultural thing. For example, there are countries in europe that have a significant proportion of atheist. We need to slowly erode at whatever is the predominant religious culture. And we need to constantly be the voice of reason in public forums.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

It has to be a cultural thing. For example, there are countries in europe that have a significant proportion of atheist. We need to slowly erode at whatever is the predominant religious culture. And we need to constantly be the voice of reason in public forums.

Well I find that one should use religion to their advantage in all cases, as something therapeutic. You may think you're doing the world a favor by eradicating religion and religious culture but it would be better to instead use to to your advantage and on those who are more likely to follow a religion and feel lost without something to believe. I don't believe a mission to eradicate a tool that is effective on large groups of people is really a righteous one. For Athiests they will have their own forms of therapy, for those who prefer religions, each should be transformed as a therapeutic tool for an effective life.

ALL therapeutic aspects of religion can be obtained without faith.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

ALL therapeutic aspects of religion can be obtained without faith.

What about motivating people through having faith in an afterlife?

You mean like motivating people to blow themselves up just to kill some infidels? You're right, that motivation does not exist without faith. It's hardly therapuetic though.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 06-08-2006).]

Do some more research on Satanism. You have the Pros wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

You mean like motivating people to blow themselves up just to kill some infidels? You're right, that motivation does not exist without faith. It's hardly therapuetic though.



The Qur'an says:

004.029

O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!

004.030

Whoso doeth that through aggression and injustice, we shall cast him into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah.

004.031

If ye eschew the most heinous of the things which ye are forbidden to do, We shall expel out of you all the evil in you, and admit you to a gate of great honour.

(Suicide is not allowed nor prescribed by the Qur'an.)

quote:Originally posted by Megalodon:

Do some more research on Satanism. You have the Pros wrong.

What pros and cons would you put instead?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The Qur'an says:

004.029

O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!

004.030

Whoso doeth that through aggression and injustice, we shall cast him into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah.

004.031

If ye eschew the most heinous of the things which ye are forbidden to do, We shall expel out of you all the evil in you, and admit you to a gate of great honour.

(Suicide is not allowed nor prescribed by the Qur'an.)



Who mentioned the Koran? I am talking about the belief in the afterlife, which motivates these actions. Besides, to these muslims what they do is not suicide.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:



Who mentioned the Koran? I am talking about the belief in the afterlife, which motivates these actions. Besides, to these muslims what they do is not suicide.

A belief in a toy can motivate people to kill too, that doesnt justify it, it can be used beneficially to give meaning and direction to a persons life.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

A belief in a toy can motivate people to kill too, that doesnt justify it, it can be used beneficially to give meaning and direction to a persons life.

When was the last time a belief in a toy motivated someone to kill?

I'm sure it has happened!

actually it is only one sect of islam that intreprets the quran to say kill the bible says kill the people who don't believe without mercy too.

I believe in buddhism what you said about them not having consequenses there are it is goverened by Karma all sects of buddhism have a hell and paradise state but it doesn't last forever it lasts a long time though Buddhism is actually realalistic is says life is suffering the first noble truth what it means is thing in life are impermanent the good and bad the problem is the bad things happen and the good things end and we long to have good things happen to us but they always end so even that is suffering but it doesn't hurt much

the second noble truth is suffering is caused by craving we want good things to happen to us but they keep ending and we don't want bad things to happen to us but they do

the third noble truth is suffering can end and true happiness is attained this is just saying you can end suffering

the fourth noble truth is the noble eightfold path leads to the end of suffering. the noble eight fold path is right speech, right thinking, right ...

this is what i believe in The Buddha taught that you should test his teachings yourself don't just openly accept them i have tested them and i found them true.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

actually it is only one sect of islam that intreprets the quran to say kill the bible says kill the people who don't believe without mercy too.

I believe in buddhism what you said about them not having consequenses there are it is goverened by Karma all sects of buddhism have a hell and paradise state but it doesn't last forever it lasts a long time though Buddhism is actually realalistic is says life is suffering the first noble truth what it means is thing in life are impermanent the good and bad the problem is the bad things happen and the good things end and we long to have good things happen to us but they always end so even that is suffering but it doesn't hurt much

the second noble truth is suffering is caused by craving we want good things to happen to us but they keep ending and we don't want bad things to happen to us but they do

the third noble truth is suffering can end and true happiness is attained this is just saying you can end suffering

the fourth noble truth is the noble eightfold path leads to the end of suffering. the noble eight fold path is right speech, right thinking, right ...

this is what i believe in The Buddha taught that you should test his teachings yourself don't just openly accept them i have tested them and i found them true.

I agree except with the non permanent part though it would be nice.

whats the problem with it? i think i could have explained it better

"The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers."

Well first of all "7" is quite a common number in the Bible and i'm pretty sure in the Qur'an also, making it an easy coincidence.

Secondly, the atmosphere is usually refered to as 5 layers, but depending how technical you want to get that ranges to about 9 or 10 (probably more) each of which play an important part in protection from the sun and holding magnetic fields etc.

If the Qur'an said.. "It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into FIVE, SEVEN OR NINE regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."... they would still be saying that it's a scientific proof, when really its just a number which happends to partially agree with one aspect of earth science.

Religion is just one more thing for humankind to do and think/fight about, it sometimes does good but more often causes lots of problems, but so does almost everthing else we do, it will never be concluded or one religion decided on, because to tell you the truth its impossible for humans to ever actually decide because we all think differently. if one religion is right it is an unjust and unfair religion because it would be leaving those who don't think the same as it's believers "left in the dust", just because their brain processes things differently.

[This message has been edited by Hate Crimez (edited 07-07-2006).]

Forget religion.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

Atheism isn't a religion. All the religions are wrong.

Winner.

or they are all right

Mortal fools. Know ye that Prizism is the true path, the only way.

i personally think that jehovah's witnesses is the true religion.

if you talk to any true jehovah's witness that have evidence backing all of thier beliefs.



[This message has been edited by krew (edited 07-15-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by krew:

i personally think that jehovah's witnesses is the true religion.

if you talk to any true jehovah's witness that have evidence backing all of thier beliefs.



What are the basic beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and how does one get to heaven?

quote:Hitler said:

Admitting that you don't know the truth is going to get you alot further then pretending you do, and building up a pile of bullshit around it, if you know what I mean.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

What are the basic beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and how does one get to heaven?



JW are a christian organization, but differ themselves from all other forms of "regular" christianity.(they don't have christmas, trinity,) Only 144 000 anioted ones get into heaven to serve with jesus. The all other followers will live on a perfect world after armageddon (144 000 will help rule with jesus, and god over them. the living 144 000 are writing the JW literature and are called the governing body)

the people writing the literature are called the faithful and discret slave.

Abrahim, as I live and breath http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Any additional comments?

abrahim

I've really enjoyed reading Abrahim and Real.PUA's argument....that's all, thanks for the read http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

According to The Simpsons, the only true faith is the Western Branch of American Presbylutheranism. lolz

quote:Originally posted by CrazyPsycho_Imp:

abrahim

I've really enjoyed reading Abrahim and Real.PUA's argument....that's all, thanks for the read http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

My Pleasure! I'm glad you enjoyed it!

Though I've developed my own opinions of religion that don't really matter, I'd like to propose a drastic religion reform... What about this, there are no religions. Everybody needs to benefit each other by being a good friend, neighbor, and person in general and spread the love. We have no afterlife, so we live our lives to the absolute fullest because we realize that when we die, we rot to dirt and do no more. We waste no time making sacrifices or performing petty rituals, but instead get out there, have fun, love each other, live, and let live. How's that? Religion can help you deal with the fear of death, but we have nothing to fear. If you live your life to the fullest, you can die with the ultimate satisfaction that you did all you could during your time on Earth. To me, that seems a hell of a lot better than a gated community in the sky where I live with biblebangers with wings. Nobody would fight over whose religion is right, which from the beginning of history has sparked war after war, persecution, and massive separation of the social classes. It might be great to devote yourself to God and live to get into heaven, but what if there is no afterlife? Your life would have been a lie and a waste of time. Instead, live it up and love each other! Of course, nobody would ever comply to this.... It's just too... well... realistic.

quote:Originally posted by ADogg:

Though I've developed my own opinions of religion that don't really matter, I'd like to propose a drastic religion reform... What about this, there are no religions. Everybody needs to benefit each other by being a good friend, neighbor, and person in general and spread the love. We have no afterlife, so we live our lives to the absolute fullest because we realize that when we die, we rot to dirt and do no more. We waste no time making sacrifices or performing petty rituals, but instead get out there, have fun, love each other, live, and let live. How's that? Religion can help you deal with the fear of death, but we have nothing to fear. If you live your life to the fullest, you can die with the ultimate satisfaction that you did all you could during your time on Earth. To me, that seems a hell of a lot better than a gated community in the sky where I live with biblebangers with wings. Nobody would fight over whose religion is right, which from the beginning of history has sparked war after war, persecution, and massive separation of the social classes. It might be great to devote yourself to God and live to get into heaven, but what if there is no afterlife? Your life would have been a lie and a waste of time. Instead, live it up and love each other! Of course, nobody would ever comply to this.... It's just too... well... realistic.

If there is no afterlife there is no punishment for the unjust and evil ones, so the best sollution is to execute personal justice on them, punish them in this life. An eye for an eye since its dust to dust.

Belief in the afterlife can cause people to prevent execution of revenge as they can simply state "God will deal with them in the afterlife". This can be used more peacefully than the belief in non afterlife in which it seems that it would be required to execute justice and punishment for crimes as there is no punishment for criminals who escape or never get punishment in this life.

quote:Originally posted by ADogg:

Though I've developed my own opinions of religion that don't really matter, I'd like to propose a drastic religion reform... What about this, there are no religions. Everybody needs to benefit each other by being a good friend, neighbor, and person in general and spread the love. We have no afterlife, so we live our lives to the absolute fullest because we realize that when we die, we rot to dirt and do no more. We waste no time making sacrifices or performing petty rituals, but instead get out there, have fun, love each other, live, and let live. How's that? Religion can help you deal with the fear of death, but we have nothing to fear. If you live your life to the fullest, you can die with the ultimate satisfaction that you did all you could during your time on Earth. To me, that seems a hell of a lot better than a gated community in the sky where I live with biblebangers with wings. Nobody would fight over whose religion is right, which from the beginning of history has sparked war after war, persecution, and massive separation of the social classes. It might be great to devote yourself to God and live to get into heaven, but what if there is no afterlife? Your life would have been a lie and a waste of time. Instead, live it up and love each other! Of course, nobody would ever comply to this.... It's just too... well... realistic.

well if there are no religions what would stop someone from, say, commit mass genocide? just because you say love people won't make people stop. it is like cops saying to a theif "if you stop taking things then we won't arrest you"

also that isn't a reform it is atheism

Prizism:-

Pros- Can't be proved or disproven. All of the tennets basically point to having a good time and not worrying too much about anything, because at the end of the day, all you need to focus on is the prize.

Holy days aren't set in stone yet so when we don't feel like work we can bunk off and declare a religious holiday.

We get to declare a Jihad against everything and anything that annoys us, and everyone has the chance to become an elder prophet.

Cons:- If you don't join you will most likely get Jihad declared against you as heathen scum, then suffer the punishment of ages; a cruel, sadistic form of torture banned under human rights regulations, involving black leather gloves, restraints and NO TOILET BREAKS!!!

There is only one religious and moral guideline.